Promoters and Money

Tim M.

2004-09-17



$2 an hour? Your Don King promoter image in blown.

I am crushed...I was just sure one of you had a pink limo

hidden away somewhere.



Tim



----- Original Message -----

From: "Randy Dreiling" <ragg-@yahoo.com>

To: <ob-@topica.com>

Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 11:33 AM

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Promoters and Money





 I guess it had to happen again...we get on this every

year.



Brad was so right to point out all the fee's and money

we pay out, that is just a short list there are many

other things we have to pay for that add up....we make

very little money, if any and if you broke it down we

would make about $2 an hour if that.





Plus you should try racing outside Oregon...OBRA is

$15 ...nobra $50 year...reg fee's start at $35 with

$10 late fee in Washington and Cali. Racing in Oregon

is a steal and we are very luck to have OBRA and the

promoters we do in Oregon.



Plus whom are you to tell us and the OBRA world that

we are ripping off or taking advantage of the racers

with out all the facts, that is flat out wrong and

disrespectful.



We provide a service that people want and in turn we

may or may not make a LITTLE money...why is that so

wrong?????



Take Care

Randy Dreiling

Oregon Mt Bike Series

Oakridge FTF

Willamette Pass Events

--- Peter Murphy <murphy_-@hotmail.com> wrote:



 

I know the promoters are not making a killing, if

anything at all, which is

why all of you have day jobs. But my quote still

stands on its own. I guess

I should have put the words "try to" between can and

make. I did not mean to

paint promoters as a greedy, vile, and money hungry

bunch of characters.



I appreciate everything that the promoters and race

organizers do for the

racing public and I try to remember to thank the

workers at every event. I

apologize that my comment was not clearly expressed.



Pete Murphy





 From: "Brad Cockman, DC" <bra-@bigfoot.com>

Reply-To: bra-@bigfoot.com

To: ob-@topica.com, Matthew Wolpert

<matthew.-@gmail.com>

 Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] ...so they can make as

much money as possible. It

 is all promoti

Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 21:22:53 +0000



Thank you Matt for the concise understanding of

race promoting. Recently

 Tim Plummer and I put on the High Desert RR and

Crit in Bend and while

 in the end we did make some money it is always a

gamble, not only in

 promoting a race, but doing it in the waning part

of the season so far

 from the main bike racing hubs of Portland and

Eugene (not to mention

 possible weather snafus). We even had a couple of

complaints regarding

 our "expensive" race, which wouldn't have been any

more expensive than

 the next race had people taken the time to actually

pre-register. Thanks

 and kudos to those of you that saved $10. We also

gave, as most

 promoters do, the ability to volunteer for the race

in some capacity.

 These people either got to race for free or got

some good schwag.

 

Yes, we made some money. Yes, that was our

intention. If we penciled it

 out to an hourly rate though it would not come out

to a whole heck of a

 lot. We (and our sponsors) do it out of a love for

the sport and a love

 of seeing people at our race enjoying the courses

and the competition.

 

You know what else makes it worthwhile? The people

that go out of their

 way to thank us for putting on the race. Personally

I try to make a

 point of this at the races I go to, not only

thanking the promoter but

 the officials and volunteers as well.



To sum up: don't take racing for granted. Thank

your officials. Thank

 your promoters. Thank your sponsors and volunteers.



(steps off of soapbox)









Matthew Wolpert wrote:

 

Someone in OBRAland recently wrote:



"Every promoter who tells you about his race

also wants the largest

  crowd

possible so they can make as much money as

possible. It is all

  promotions."



While many might think this is the case as I

once did, in truth it

  betrays a complete lack of understanding of OBRA

races. Yes, some do

  make money sometimes. More often the people who

put together bike

  races actually lose money or at best break even.



The people who sponsor and organize bike races

do so because they want

  to give something back to the racing community,

and out of a sense of

  respect to the others who have spent many hours

of their time working

  hard so that the masses in Oregon have races to

go to.

  

I want to make sure that this person knows that

in addition to large

  amounts of a organizers time which he or she is

_donating_ to the

  greater OBRA community, there are many costs

associated with putting

  together a bike race that require cash.



*Those porta johns that you sometimes have to

wait in line to use,

  someone has to pay for them.

*Medical personel and race officials receive a

modest stipend for

  their generous committment to volunteer.

*DOT Permits generally require fees for

approval.

  *Prizes, however small they may seem, cost

someone money.

  *Renting the OBRA equipment costs money.

*Insurance to protect OBRA and people who

organize races and the

  racers costs money.

*Food for volunteers and officials costs money.

*Printing race fliers costs money



There are a number of other "miscellaneous"

costs associated with bike

  races as well. While it's pretty easy to total

the number of

  participants and multiply by the race entry fee,

and think "gee, these

  guys are making a killing" it just isn't so.



After all of these items are paid for, I have

personally witnessed

  organizers distributing the remaining proceeds

to the racers as ad hoc

  prizes weeks after the race is over, or to the

OBRA organization

  directly.







----- Original Message -----

From: Mike Murray <mike.m-@obra.org>

Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 11:13:09 -0700

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Test Ride a Cannondale

Six13, Sunday, Sept. 19

  To: tnels-@aol.com, shane.-@comcast.net,

cur-@rivercitybicycles.com, ob-@topica.com





Tom's opinion is noted but it is just that, his

opinion. It does not

  reflect the intention that we had when we set up

the lists and,

  apparently, does not reflect the opinion of the

majority of the

  posters to the list. I certainly don't have any

problem if the

  ob-@topica.com list becomes a "free advertising

tool". The list info

  states:

"This is the mailing list for the Oregon Bicycle

Racing Association.

  Our mission is to foster and grow the sport of

bicycle racing in

  Oregon -road, track, mountain bike and

cyclocross. This list is to be

  used to post for-sale bicycle related items and

to spark discussions

  about the sport."



Note that this does not preclude commercial

posts in any way. To date

  commercial posts have not even been close to a

problem.

  

Curt, feel free to continue to use the list as

you have.

  

Mike Murray





-----Original Message-----

From: TNels-@aol.com

[mailto:TNels-@aol.com]

  Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2004 17:59 PM

To: shane.-@comcast.net;

cur-@rivercitybicycles.com;

  ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Test Ride a Cannondale

Six13, Sunday, Sept. 19

  

I agree that River City is a great shop and

supports Oregon bicycle

=== message truncated ===









__________________________________

Do you Yahoo!?

Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!

http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com



Eric Kytola

2004-09-17



Leif, Tristan, Kari and I would like to thank every promoter who has thrown a kids race into their events this year. every kids race has been free. thank you! My kids love racing! i can count 16 races those little guys did this year.



-----Original Message-----

From: Randy Dreiling [mailto:ragg-@yahoo.com]

Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 11:34 AM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Promoters and Money





I guess it had to happen again...we get on this every

year.



Brad was so right to point out all the fee's and money

we pay out, that is just a short list there are many

other things we have to pay for that add up....we make

very little money, if any and if you broke it down we

would make about $2 an hour if that.





Plus you should try racing outside Oregon...OBRA is

$15 ...nobra $50 year...reg fee's start at $35 with

$10 late fee in Washington and Cali. Racing in Oregon

is a steal and we are very luck to have OBRA and the

promoters we do in Oregon.



Plus whom are you to tell us and the OBRA world that

we are ripping off or taking advantage of the racers

with out all the facts, that is flat out wrong and

disrespectful.



We provide a service that people want and in turn we

may or may not make a LITTLE money...why is that so

wrong?????



Take Care

Randy Dreiling

Oregon Mt Bike Series

Oakridge FTF

Willamette Pass Events

--- Peter Murphy <murphy_-@hotmail.com> wrote:



 

I know the promoters are not making a killing, if

anything at all, which is

why all of you have day jobs. But my quote still

stands on its own. I guess

I should have put the words "try to" between can and

make. I did not mean to

paint promoters as a greedy, vile, and money hungry

bunch of characters.



I appreciate everything that the promoters and race

organizers do for the

racing public and I try to remember to thank the

workers at every event. I

apologize that my comment was not clearly expressed.



Pete Murphy





 From: "Brad Cockman, DC" <bra-@bigfoot.com>

Reply-To: bra-@bigfoot.com

To: ob-@topica.com, Matthew Wolpert

<matthew.-@gmail.com>

 Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] ...so they can make as

much money as possible. It

 is all promoti

Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 21:22:53 +0000



Thank you Matt for the concise understanding of

race promoting. Recently

 Tim Plummer and I put on the High Desert RR and

Crit in Bend and while

 in the end we did make some money it is always a

gamble, not only in

 promoting a race, but doing it in the waning part

of the season so far

 from the main bike racing hubs of Portland and

Eugene (not to mention

 possible weather snafus). We even had a couple of

complaints regarding

 our "expensive" race, which wouldn't have been any

more expensive than

 the next race had people taken the time to actually

pre-register. Thanks

 and kudos to those of you that saved $10. We also

gave, as most

 promoters do, the ability to volunteer for the race

in some capacity.

 These people either got to race for free or got

some good schwag.

 

Yes, we made some money. Yes, that was our

intention. If we penciled it

 out to an hourly rate though it would not come out

to a whole heck of a

 lot. We (and our sponsors) do it out of a love for

the sport and a love

 of seeing people at our race enjoying the courses

and the competition.

 

You know what else makes it worthwhile? The people

that go out of their

 way to thank us for putting on the race. Personally

I try to make a

 point of this at the races I go to, not only

thanking the promoter but

 the officials and volunteers as well.



To sum up: don't take racing for granted. Thank

your officials. Thank

 your promoters. Thank your sponsors and volunteers.



(steps off of soapbox)









Matthew Wolpert wrote:

 

Someone in OBRAland recently wrote:



"Every promoter who tells you about his race

also wants the largest

  crowd

possible so they can make as much money as

possible. It is all

  promotions."



While many might think this is the case as I

once did, in truth it

  betrays a complete lack of understanding of OBRA

races. Yes, some do

  make money sometimes. More often the people who

put together bike

  races actually lose money or at best break even.



The people who sponsor and organize bike races

do so because they want

  to give something back to the racing community,

and out of a sense of

  respect to the others who have spent many hours

of their time working

  hard so that the masses in Oregon have races to

go to.

  

I want to make sure that this person knows that

in addition to large

  amounts of a organizers time which he or she is

_donating_ to the

  greater OBRA community, there are many costs

associated with putting

  together a bike race that require cash.



*Those porta johns that you sometimes have to

wait in line to use,

  someone has to pay for them.

*Medical personel and race officials receive a

modest stipend for

  their generous committment to volunteer.

*DOT Permits generally require fees for

approval.

  *Prizes, however small they may seem, cost

someone money.

  *Renting the OBRA equipment costs money.

*Insurance to protect OBRA and people who

organize races and the

  racers costs money.

*Food for volunteers and officials costs money.

*Printing race fliers costs money



There are a number of other "miscellaneous"

costs associated with bike

  races as well. While it's pretty easy to total

the number of

  participants and multiply by the race entry fee,

and think "gee, these

  guys are making a killing" it just isn't so.



After all of these items are paid for, I have

personally witnessed

  organizers distributing the remaining proceeds

to the racers as ad hoc

  prizes weeks after the race is over, or to the

OBRA organization

  directly.







----- Original Message -----

From: Mike Murray <mike.m-@obra.org>

Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 11:13:09 -0700

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Test Ride a Cannondale

Six13, Sunday, Sept. 19

  To: tnels-@aol.com, shane.-@comcast.net,

cur-@rivercitybicycles.com, ob-@topica.com





Tom's opinion is noted but it is just that, his

opinion. It does not

  reflect the intention that we had when we set up

the lists and,

  apparently, does not reflect the opinion of the

majority of the

  posters to the list. I certainly don't have any

problem if the

  ob-@topica.com list becomes a "free advertising

tool". The list info

  states:

"This is the mailing list for the Oregon Bicycle

Racing Association.

  Our mission is to foster and grow the sport of

bicycle racing in

  Oregon -road, track, mountain bike and

cyclocross. This list is to be

  used to post for-sale bicycle related items and

to spark discussions

  about the sport."



Note that this does not preclude commercial

posts in any way. To date

  commercial posts have not even been close to a

problem.

  

Curt, feel free to continue to use the list as

you have.

  

Mike Murray





-----Original Message-----

From: TNels-@aol.com

[mailto:TNels-@aol.com]

  Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2004 17:59 PM

To: shane.-@comcast.net;

cur-@rivercitybicycles.com;

  ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Test Ride a Cannondale

Six13, Sunday, Sept. 19

  

I agree that River City is a great shop and

supports Oregon bicycle

=== message truncated ===









__________________________________

Do you Yahoo!?

Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!

http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com



Heather VanValkenburg, Fdg.

2004-09-17



<html><div style='background-color:'><DIV class=RTE>

<P><BR><BR></P>Heck, we lost money, but I think folks were happy with the swag.</DIV>----Original Message Follows----

<DIV></DIV>From: Randy Dreiling <ragg-@yahoo.com>

<DIV></DIV>Reply-To: ragg-@yahoo.com

<DIV></DIV>To: ob-@topica.com

<DIV></DIV>Subject: [OBRA Chat] Promoters and Money

<DIV></DIV>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 11:33:58 -0700 (PDT)

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>I guess it had to happen again...we get on this every

<DIV></DIV>year.

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>Brad was so right to point out all the fee's and money

<DIV></DIV>we pay out, that is just a short list there are many

<DIV></DIV>other things we have to pay for that add up....we make

<DIV></DIV>very little money, if any and if you broke it down we

<DIV></DIV>would make about $2 an hour if that.

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>Plus you should try racing outside Oregon...OBRA is

<DIV></DIV>$15 ...nobra $50 year...reg fee's start at $35 with

<DIV></DIV>$10 late fee in Washington and Cali.  Racing in Oregon

<DIV></DIV>is a steal and we are very luck to have OBRA and the

<DIV></DIV>promoters we do in Oregon.

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>Plus whom are you to tell us and the OBRA world that

<DIV></DIV>we are ripping off or taking advantage of the racers

<DIV></DIV>with out all the facts, that is flat out wrong and

<DIV></DIV>disrespectful.

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>We provide a service that people want and in turn we

<DIV></DIV>may or may not make a LITTLE money...why is that so

<DIV></DIV>wrong?????

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>Take Care

<DIV></DIV>Randy Dreiling

<DIV></DIV>Oregon Mt Bike Series

<DIV></DIV>Oakridge FTF

<DIV></DIV>Willamette Pass Events

<DIV></DIV>--- Peter Murphy <murphy_-@hotmail.com> wrote:

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV>> I know the promoters are not making a killing, if

<DIV></DIV>> anything at all, which is

<DIV></DIV>> why all of you have day jobs. But my quote still

<DIV></DIV>> stands on its own. I guess

<DIV></DIV>> I should have put the words "try to" between can and

<DIV></DIV>> make. I did not mean to

<DIV></DIV>> paint promoters as a greedy, vile, and money hungry

<DIV></DIV>> bunch of characters.

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV>> I appreciate everything that the promoters and race

<DIV></DIV>> organizers do for the

<DIV></DIV>> racing public and I try to remember to thank the

<DIV></DIV>> workers at every event. I

<DIV></DIV>> apologize that my comment was not clearly expressed.

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV>> Pete Murphy

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV>> >From: "Brad Cockman, DC" <bra-@bigfoot.com>

<DIV></DIV>> >Reply-To: bra-@bigfoot.com

<DIV></DIV>> >To: ob-@topica.com, Matthew Wolpert

<DIV></DIV>> <matthew.-@gmail.com>

<DIV></DIV>> >Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] ...so they can make as

<DIV></DIV>> much money as possible. It

<DIV></DIV>> >is all promoti

<DIV></DIV>> >Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 21:22:53 +0000

<DIV></DIV>> >

<DIV></DIV>> >Thank you Matt for the concise understanding of

<DIV></DIV>> race promoting. Recently

<DIV></DIV>> >Tim Plummer and I put on the High Desert RR and

<DIV></DIV>> Crit in Bend and while

<DIV></DIV>> >in the end we did make some money it is always a

<DIV></DIV>> gamble, not only in

<DIV></DIV>> >promoting a race, but doing it in the waning part

<DIV></DIV>> of the season so far

<DIV></DIV>> >from the main bike racing hubs of Portland and

<DIV></DIV>> Eugene (not to mention

<DIV></DIV>> >possible weather snafus). We even had a couple of

<DIV></DIV>> complaints regarding

<DIV></DIV>> >our "expensive" race, which wouldn't have been any

<DIV></DIV>> more expensive than

<DIV></DIV>> >the next race had people taken the time to actually

<DIV></DIV>> pre-register. Thanks

<DIV></DIV>> >and kudos to those of you that saved $10. We also

<DIV></DIV>> gave, as most

<DIV></DIV>> >promoters do, the ability to volunteer for the race

<DIV></DIV>> in some capacity.

<DIV></DIV>> >These people either got to race for free or got

<DIV></DIV>> some good schwag.

<DIV></DIV>> >

<DIV></DIV>> >Yes, we made some money. Yes, that was our

<DIV></DIV>> intention. If we penciled it

<DIV></DIV>> >out to an hourly rate though it would not come out

<DIV></DIV>> to a whole heck of a

<DIV></DIV>> >lot. We (and our sponsors) do it out of a love for

<DIV></DIV>> the sport and a love

<DIV></DIV>> >of seeing people at our race enjoying the courses

<DIV></DIV>> and the competition.

<DIV></DIV>> >

<DIV></DIV>> >You know what else makes it worthwhile? The people

<DIV></DIV>> that go out of their

<DIV></DIV>> >way to thank us for putting on the race. Personally

<DIV></DIV>> I try to make a

<DIV></DIV>> >point of this at the races I go to, not only

<DIV></DIV>> thanking the promoter but

<DIV></DIV>> >the officials and volunteers as well.

<DIV></DIV>> >

<DIV></DIV>> >To sum up: don't take racing for granted. Thank

<DIV></DIV>> your officials. Thank

<DIV></DIV>> >your promoters. Thank your sponsors and volunteers.

<DIV></DIV>> >

<DIV></DIV>> >(steps off of soapbox)

<DIV></DIV>> >

<DIV></DIV>> >

<DIV></DIV>> >

<DIV></DIV>> >

<DIV></DIV>> >Matthew Wolpert wrote:

<DIV></DIV>> > >

<DIV></DIV>> > > Someone in OBRAland recently wrote:

<DIV></DIV>> > >

<DIV></DIV>> > > "Every promoter who tells you about his race

<DIV></DIV>> also wants the largest

<DIV></DIV>> > > crowd

<DIV></DIV>> > > possible so they can make as much money as

<DIV></DIV>> possible. It is all

<DIV></DIV>> > > promotions."

<DIV></DIV>> > >

<DIV></DIV>> > > While many might think this is the case as I

<DIV></DIV>> once did, in truth it

<DIV></DIV>> > > betrays a complete lack of understanding of OBRA

<DIV></DIV>> races. Yes,  some do

<DIV></DIV>> > > make money sometimes. More often the people who

<DIV></DIV>> put together bike

<DIV></DIV>> > > races actually lose money or at best break even.

<DIV></DIV>> > >

<DIV></DIV>> > > The people who sponsor and organize bike races

<DIV></DIV>> do so because they want

<DIV></DIV>> > > to give something back to the racing community,

<DIV></DIV>> and out of a sense of

<DIV></DIV>> > > respect to the others who have spent many hours

<DIV></DIV>> of their time working

<DIV></DIV>> > > hard so that the masses in Oregon have races to

<DIV></DIV>> go to.

<DIV></DIV>> > >

<DIV></DIV>> > > I want to make sure that this person knows that

<DIV></DIV>> in addition to large

<DIV></DIV>> > > amounts of a organizers time which he or she is

<DIV></DIV>> _donating_ to the

<DIV></DIV>> > > greater OBRA community, there are many costs

<DIV></DIV>> associated with putting

<DIV></DIV>> > > together a bike race that require cash.

<DIV></DIV>> > >

<DIV></DIV>> > > *Those porta johns that you sometimes have to

<DIV></DIV>> wait in line to use,

<DIV></DIV>> > > someone has to pay for them.

<DIV></DIV>> > > *Medical personel and race officials receive a

<DIV></DIV>> modest stipend for

<DIV></DIV>> > > their generous committment to volunteer.

<DIV></DIV>> > > *DOT Permits generally require fees for

<DIV></DIV>> approval.

<DIV></DIV>> > > *Prizes, however small they may seem, cost

<DIV></DIV>> someone money.

<DIV></DIV>> > > *Renting the OBRA equipment costs money.

<DIV></DIV>> > > *Insurance to protect OBRA and people who

<DIV></DIV>> organize races and the

<DIV></DIV>> > > racers costs money.

<DIV></DIV>> > > *Food for volunteers and officials costs money.

<DIV></DIV>> > > *Printing race fliers costs money

<DIV></DIV>> > >

<DIV></DIV>> > > There are a number of other "miscellaneous"

<DIV></DIV>> costs associated with bike

<DIV></DIV>> > > races as well. While it's pretty easy to total

<DIV></DIV>> the number of

<DIV></DIV>> > > participants and multiply by the race entry fee,

<DIV></DIV>> and think "gee, these

<DIV></DIV>> > > guys are making a killing" it just isn't so.

<DIV></DIV>> > >

<DIV></DIV>> > > After all of these items are paid for, I have

<DIV></DIV>> personally witnessed

<DIV></DIV>> > > organizers distributing the remaining proceeds

<DIV></DIV>> to the racers as ad hoc

<DIV></DIV>> > > prizes weeks after the race is over, or to the

<DIV></DIV>> OBRA organization

<DIV></DIV>> > > directly.

<DIV></DIV>> > >

<DIV></DIV>> > >

<DIV></DIV>> > >

<DIV></DIV>> > > ----- Original Message -----

<DIV></DIV>> > > From: Mike Murray <mike.m-@obra.org>

<DIV></DIV>> > > Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 11:13:09 -0700

<DIV></DIV>> > > Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Test Ride a Cannondale

<DIV></DIV>> Six13, Sunday, Sept. 19

<DIV></DIV>> > > To: tnels-@aol.com, shane.-@comcast.net,

<DIV></DIV>> > > cur-@rivercitybicycles.com, ob-@topica.com

<DIV></DIV>> > >

<DIV></DIV>> > >

<DIV></DIV>> > > Tom's opinion is noted but it is just that, his

<DIV></DIV>> opinion.  It does not

<DIV></DIV>> > > reflect the intention that we had when we set up

<DIV></DIV>> the lists and,

<DIV></DIV>> > > apparently, does not reflect the opinion of the

<DIV></DIV>> majority of the

<DIV></DIV>> > > posters to the list.  I certainly don't have any

<DIV></DIV>> problem if the

<DIV></DIV>> > > ob-@topica.com list becomes a "free advertising

<DIV></DIV>> tool".  The list info

<DIV></DIV>> > > states:

<DIV></DIV>> > > "This is the mailing list for the Oregon Bicycle

<DIV></DIV>> Racing Association.

<DIV></DIV>> > > Our mission is to foster and grow the sport of

<DIV></DIV>> bicycle racing in

<DIV></DIV>> > > Oregon -road, track, mountain bike and

<DIV></DIV>> cyclocross. This list is to be

<DIV></DIV>> > > used to post for-sale bicycle related items and

<DIV></DIV>> to spark discussions

<DIV></DIV>> > > about the sport."

<DIV></DIV>> > >

<DIV></DIV>> > > Note that this does not preclude commercial

<DIV></DIV>> posts in any way.  To date

<DIV></DIV>> > > commercial posts have not even been close to a

<DIV></DIV>> problem.

<DIV></DIV>> > >

<DIV></DIV>> > > Curt, feel free to continue to use the list as

<DIV></DIV>> you have.

<DIV></DIV>> > >

<DIV></DIV>> > > Mike Murray

<DIV></DIV>> > >

<DIV></DIV>> > >

<DIV></DIV>> > > -----Original Message-----

<DIV></DIV>> > > From: TNels-@aol.com

<DIV></DIV>> [mailto:TNels-@aol.com]

<DIV></DIV>> > > Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2004 17:59 PM

<DIV></DIV>> > > To: shane.-@comcast.net;

<DIV></DIV>> cur-@rivercitybicycles.com;

<DIV></DIV>> > > ob-@topica.com

<DIV></DIV>> > > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Test Ride a Cannondale

<DIV></DIV>> Six13, Sunday, Sept. 19

<DIV></DIV>> > >

<DIV></DIV>> > > I agree that River City is a great shop and

<DIV></DIV>> supports Oregon bicycle

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV>=== message truncated ===

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>__________________________________

<DIV></DIV>Do you Yahoo!?

<DIV></DIV>Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!

<DIV></DIV>http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

<DIV></DIV>To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

<DIV></DIV>To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV></div></html>



Randy Dreiling

2004-09-17



I guess it had to happen again...we get on this every

year.



Brad was so right to point out all the fee's and money

we pay out, that is just a short list there are many

other things we have to pay for that add up....we make

very little money, if any and if you broke it down we

would make about $2 an hour if that.





Plus you should try racing outside Oregon...OBRA is

$15 ...nobra $50 year...reg fee's start at $35 with

$10 late fee in Washington and Cali. Racing in Oregon

is a steal and we are very luck to have OBRA and the

promoters we do in Oregon.



Plus whom are you to tell us and the OBRA world that

we are ripping off or taking advantage of the racers

with out all the facts, that is flat out wrong and

disrespectful.



We provide a service that people want and in turn we

may or may not make a LITTLE money...why is that so

wrong?????



Take Care

Randy Dreiling

Oregon Mt Bike Series

Oakridge FTF

Willamette Pass Events

--- Peter Murphy <murphy_-@hotmail.com> wrote:



 

I know the promoters are not making a killing, if

anything at all, which is

why all of you have day jobs. But my quote still

stands on its own. I guess

I should have put the words "try to" between can and

make. I did not mean to

paint promoters as a greedy, vile, and money hungry

bunch of characters.



I appreciate everything that the promoters and race

organizers do for the

racing public and I try to remember to thank the

workers at every event. I

apologize that my comment was not clearly expressed.



Pete Murphy





 From: "Brad Cockman, DC" <bra-@bigfoot.com>

Reply-To: bra-@bigfoot.com

To: ob-@topica.com, Matthew Wolpert

<matthew.-@gmail.com>

 Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] ...so they can make as

much money as possible. It

 is all promoti

Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 21:22:53 +0000



Thank you Matt for the concise understanding of

race promoting. Recently

 Tim Plummer and I put on the High Desert RR and

Crit in Bend and while

 in the end we did make some money it is always a

gamble, not only in

 promoting a race, but doing it in the waning part

of the season so far

 from the main bike racing hubs of Portland and

Eugene (not to mention

 possible weather snafus). We even had a couple of

complaints regarding

 our "expensive" race, which wouldn't have been any

more expensive than

 the next race had people taken the time to actually

pre-register. Thanks

 and kudos to those of you that saved $10. We also

gave, as most

 promoters do, the ability to volunteer for the race

in some capacity.

 These people either got to race for free or got

some good schwag.

 

Yes, we made some money. Yes, that was our

intention. If we penciled it

 out to an hourly rate though it would not come out

to a whole heck of a

 lot. We (and our sponsors) do it out of a love for

the sport and a love

 of seeing people at our race enjoying the courses

and the competition.

 

You know what else makes it worthwhile? The people

that go out of their

 way to thank us for putting on the race. Personally

I try to make a

 point of this at the races I go to, not only

thanking the promoter but

 the officials and volunteers as well.



To sum up: don't take racing for granted. Thank

your officials. Thank

 your promoters. Thank your sponsors and volunteers.



(steps off of soapbox)









Matthew Wolpert wrote:

 

Someone in OBRAland recently wrote:



"Every promoter who tells you about his race

also wants the largest

  crowd

possible so they can make as much money as

possible. It is all

  promotions."



While many might think this is the case as I

once did, in truth it

  betrays a complete lack of understanding of OBRA

races. Yes, some do

  make money sometimes. More often the people who

put together bike

  races actually lose money or at best break even.



The people who sponsor and organize bike races

do so because they want

  to give something back to the racing community,

and out of a sense of

  respect to the others who have spent many hours

of their time working

  hard so that the masses in Oregon have races to

go to.

  

I want to make sure that this person knows that

in addition to large

  amounts of a organizers time which he or she is

_donating_ to the

  greater OBRA community, there are many costs

associated with putting

  together a bike race that require cash.



*Those porta johns that you sometimes have to

wait in line to use,

  someone has to pay for them.

*Medical personel and race officials receive a

modest stipend for

  their generous committment to volunteer.

*DOT Permits generally require fees for

approval.

  *Prizes, however small they may seem, cost

someone money.

  *Renting the OBRA equipment costs money.

*Insurance to protect OBRA and people who

organize races and the

  racers costs money.

*Food for volunteers and officials costs money.

*Printing race fliers costs money



There are a number of other "miscellaneous"

costs associated with bike

  races as well. While it's pretty easy to total

the number of

  participants and multiply by the race entry fee,

and think "gee, these

  guys are making a killing" it just isn't so.



After all of these items are paid for, I have

personally witnessed

  organizers distributing the remaining proceeds

to the racers as ad hoc

  prizes weeks after the race is over, or to the

OBRA organization

  directly.







----- Original Message -----

From: Mike Murray <mike.m-@obra.org>

Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 11:13:09 -0700

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Test Ride a Cannondale

Six13, Sunday, Sept. 19

  To: tnels-@aol.com, shane.-@comcast.net,

cur-@rivercitybicycles.com, ob-@topica.com





Tom's opinion is noted but it is just that, his

opinion. It does not

  reflect the intention that we had when we set up

the lists and,

  apparently, does not reflect the opinion of the

majority of the

  posters to the list. I certainly don't have any

problem if the

  ob-@topica.com list becomes a "free advertising

tool". The list info

  states:

"This is the mailing list for the Oregon Bicycle

Racing Association.

  Our mission is to foster and grow the sport of

bicycle racing in

  Oregon -road, track, mountain bike and

cyclocross. This list is to be

  used to post for-sale bicycle related items and

to spark discussions

  about the sport."



Note that this does not preclude commercial

posts in any way. To date

  commercial posts have not even been close to a

problem.

  

Curt, feel free to continue to use the list as

you have.

  

Mike Murray





-----Original Message-----

From: TNels-@aol.com

[mailto:TNels-@aol.com]

  Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2004 17:59 PM

To: shane.-@comcast.net;

cur-@rivercitybicycles.com;

  ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Test Ride a Cannondale

Six13, Sunday, Sept. 19

  

I agree that River City is a great shop and

supports Oregon bicycle

=== message truncated ===









__________________________________

Do you Yahoo!?

Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!

http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail



Randy Dreiling

2004-09-17



I guess it had to happen again...we get on this every

year.



Brad was so right to point out all the fee's and money

we pay out, that is just a short list there are many

other things we have to pay for that add up....we make

very little money, if any and if you broke it down we

would make about $2 an hour if that.





Plus you should try racing outside Oregon...OBRA is

$15 ...nobra $50 year...reg fee's start at $35 with

$10 late fee in Washington and Cali. Racing in Oregon

is a steal and we are very luck to have OBRA and the

promoters we do in Oregon.



Plus whom are you to tell us and the OBRA world that

we are ripping off or taking advantage of the racers

with out all the facts, that is flat out wrong and

disrespectful.



We provide a service that people want and in turn we

may or may not make a LITTLE money...why is that so

wrong?????



Take Care

Randy Dreiling

Oregon Mt Bike Series

Oakridge FTF

Willamette Pass Events

--- Peter Murphy <murphy_-@hotmail.com> wrote:



 

I know the promoters are not making a killing, if

anything at all, which is

why all of you have day jobs. But my quote still

stands on its own. I guess

I should have put the words "try to" between can and

make. I did not mean to

paint promoters as a greedy, vile, and money hungry

bunch of characters.



I appreciate everything that the promoters and race

organizers do for the

racing public and I try to remember to thank the

workers at every event. I

apologize that my comment was not clearly expressed.



Pete Murphy





 From: "Brad Cockman, DC" <bra-@bigfoot.com>

Reply-To: bra-@bigfoot.com

To: ob-@topica.com, Matthew Wolpert

<matthew.-@gmail.com>

 Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] ...so they can make as

much money as possible. It

 is all promoti

Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 21:22:53 +0000



Thank you Matt for the concise understanding of

race promoting. Recently

 Tim Plummer and I put on the High Desert RR and

Crit in Bend and while

 in the end we did make some money it is always a

gamble, not only in

 promoting a race, but doing it in the waning part

of the season so far

 from the main bike racing hubs of Portland and

Eugene (not to mention

 possible weather snafus). We even had a couple of

complaints regarding

 our "expensive" race, which wouldn't have been any

more expensive than

 the next race had people taken the time to actually

pre-register. Thanks

 and kudos to those of you that saved $10. We also

gave, as most

 promoters do, the ability to volunteer for the race

in some capacity.

 These people either got to race for free or got

some good schwag.

 

Yes, we made some money. Yes, that was our

intention. If we penciled it

 out to an hourly rate though it would not come out

to a whole heck of a

 lot. We (and our sponsors) do it out of a love for

the sport and a love

 of seeing people at our race enjoying the courses

and the competition.

 

You know what else makes it worthwhile? The people

that go out of their

 way to thank us for putting on the race. Personally

I try to make a

 point of this at the races I go to, not only

thanking the promoter but

 the officials and volunteers as well.



To sum up: don't take racing for granted. Thank

your officials. Thank

 your promoters. Thank your sponsors and volunteers.



(steps off of soapbox)









Matthew Wolpert wrote:

 

Someone in OBRAland recently wrote:



"Every promoter who tells you about his race

also wants the largest

  crowd

possible so they can make as much money as

possible. It is all

  promotions."



While many might think this is the case as I

once did, in truth it

  betrays a complete lack of understanding of OBRA

races. Yes, some do

  make money sometimes. More often the people who

put together bike

  races actually lose money or at best break even.



The people who sponsor and organize bike races

do so because they want

  to give something back to the racing community,

and out of a sense of

  respect to the others who have spent many hours

of their time working

  hard so that the masses in Oregon have races to

go to.

  

I want to make sure that this person knows that

in addition to large

  amounts of a organizers time which he or she is

_donating_ to the

  greater OBRA community, there are many costs

associated with putting

  together a bike race that require cash.



*Those porta johns that you sometimes have to

wait in line to use,

  someone has to pay for them.

*Medical personel and race officials receive a

modest stipend for

  their generous committment to volunteer.

*DOT Permits generally require fees for

approval.

  *Prizes, however small they may seem, cost

someone money.

  *Renting the OBRA equipment costs money.

*Insurance to protect OBRA and people who

organize races and the

  racers costs money.

*Food for volunteers and officials costs money.

*Printing race fliers costs money



There are a number of other "miscellaneous"

costs associated with bike

  races as well. While it's pretty easy to total

the number of

  participants and multiply by the race entry fee,

and think "gee, these

  guys are making a killing" it just isn't so.



After all of these items are paid for, I have

personally witnessed

  organizers distributing the remaining proceeds

to the racers as ad hoc

  prizes weeks after the race is over, or to the

OBRA organization

  directly.







----- Original Message -----

From: Mike Murray <mike.m-@obra.org>

Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 11:13:09 -0700

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Test Ride a Cannondale

Six13, Sunday, Sept. 19

  To: tnels-@aol.com, shane.-@comcast.net,

cur-@rivercitybicycles.com, ob-@topica.com





Tom's opinion is noted but it is just that, his

opinion. It does not

  reflect the intention that we had when we set up

the lists and,

  apparently, does not reflect the opinion of the

majority of the

  posters to the list. I certainly don't have any

problem if the

  ob-@topica.com list becomes a "free advertising

tool". The list info

  states:

"This is the mailing list for the Oregon Bicycle

Racing Association.

  Our mission is to foster and grow the sport of

bicycle racing in

  Oregon -road, track, mountain bike and

cyclocross. This list is to be

  used to post for-sale bicycle related items and

to spark discussions

  about the sport."



Note that this does not preclude commercial

posts in any way. To date

  commercial posts have not even been close to a

problem.

  

Curt, feel free to continue to use the list as

you have.

  

Mike Murray





-----Original Message-----

From: TNels-@aol.com

[mailto:TNels-@aol.com]

  Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2004 17:59 PM

To: shane.-@comcast.net;

cur-@rivercitybicycles.com;

  ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Test Ride a Cannondale

Six13, Sunday, Sept. 19

  

I agree that River City is a great shop and

supports Oregon bicycle

=== message truncated ===





__________________________________________________

Do You Yahoo!?

Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around

http://mail.yahoo.com