Re: homologous vs. autologous

David Hart

2004-09-22



<html><div style='background-color:'><DIV class=RTE>

<P>Thanks Mike for letting me know the least dangerous way to dope.</P>

<P>It will come in handy next year, thanks!!!<BR><BR></P></DIV><BR><BR><BR>David Hart

<DIV></DIV>North River Racing

<DIV></DIV>Vancouver, Washington

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>----Original Message Follows----

<DIV></DIV>From: Mike Murray <mike.m-@obra.org>

<DIV></DIV>Reply-To: mike.m-@obra.org

<DIV></DIV>To: ob-@topica.com

<DIV></DIV>Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat]  homologous vs. autologous

<DIV></DIV>Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 13:33:38 -0700

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>Phil Bentley [mailto:pben-@rsblaw.net] wrote:

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>"My limited understanding is that "blood doping" was typically done with

<DIV></DIV>your own blood?  Taken out, stored and then reinjected before competition.

<DIV></DIV>That would be auto.  Tyler tested positive for homo, i.e., blood was from

<DIV></DIV>someone else.  This would suggest that the transfusion was related to

<DIV></DIV>surgery rather than doping."

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>Wrong.  For the purposes of blood doping red cells are red cells.  Doesn't

<DIV></DIV>matter where they come from they will still carry oxygen. The least

<DIV></DIV>dangerous way to blood dope would be to use autologous blood, i.e. have your

<DIV></DIV>own blood drawn well in advance of the specific event you are cheating for

<DIV></DIV>and then give it back before the event so that the hematocrit (percentage of

<DIV></DIV>blood volume occupied by red cells) is increased.  This has to be done with

<DIV></DIV>enough time to allow the body to produce red cells to replace the ones taken

<DIV></DIV>out.  Red cells have a limited shelf life so timing and storage are critical

<DIV></DIV>items.  Ideally the plasma is spun off so that only red cells are given

<DIV></DIV>back.

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>For a pro bike racer all this creates problems for a pro bike racer.  It

<DIV></DIV>only really works for someone planning to cheat for a specific, and fairly

<DIV></DIV>short, period of time.  They will be slower just after the blood is taken

<DIV></DIV>out, since their hematocrit will be lower. Given this it appears that some

<DIV></DIV>athletes are willing to use homologous blood, despite the risks of

<DIV></DIV>transfusion reactions and transmission of disease.  For homologous blood you

<DIV></DIV>can cheat any time and you don't have to have a period of lower performance

<DIV></DIV>waiting for you body to produce red cells.  When the benefit of the

<DIV></DIV>transfused blood begins to go away you can just take more blood (as well as

<DIV></DIV>risk).

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>For the record, the US Olympic cycling team (which was the group to bring

<DIV></DIV>this practice to light in 1984, although likely not the first to actually

<DIV></DIV>use it, as is often mis-stated) used only homologous blood.  Transfusions

<DIV></DIV>were done in a hotel room.  There were no records kept of cross matching of

<DIV></DIV>the blood being done.  Whole blood, rather than packed red cells were used.

<DIV></DIV>It is my impression that they basically took the blood out of one individual

<DIV></DIV>and then put it directly in another, rather like a procedure from the

<DIV></DIV>medical dark ages.  Makes one wonder what they were thinking, if anything.

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>Currently in regular medical practice it is more common to use autologous

<DIV></DIV>blood for elective surgical procedures which are likely to require blood.

<DIV></DIV>This has become more common primarily because of the AIDS epidemic and the

<DIV></DIV>recognition of the considerable risk of transfusion.  On the other hand, few

<DIV></DIV>surgical procedures actually require blood.  Most blood use is not elective.

<DIV></DIV>Most medical blood use is homologous.

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>Mike Murray

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

<DIV></DIV>To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

<DIV></DIV>To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV></div></html>



Mike Murray

2004-09-21



Phil Bentley [mailto:pben-@rsblaw.net] wrote:



"My limited understanding is that "blood doping" was typically done with

your own blood? Taken out, stored and then reinjected before competition.

That would be auto. Tyler tested positive for homo, i.e., blood was from

someone else. This would suggest that the transfusion was related to

surgery rather than doping."     



Wrong. For the purposes of blood doping red cells are red cells. Doesn't

matter where they come from they will still carry oxygen. The least

dangerous way to blood dope would be to use autologous blood, i.e. have your

own blood drawn well in advance of the specific event you are cheating for

and then give it back before the event so that the hematocrit (percentage of

blood volume occupied by red cells) is increased. This has to be done with

enough time to allow the body to produce red cells to replace the ones taken

out. Red cells have a limited shelf life so timing and storage are critical

items. Ideally the plasma is spun off so that only red cells are given

back.



For a pro bike racer all this creates problems for a pro bike racer. It

only really works for someone planning to cheat for a specific, and fairly

short, period of time. They will be slower just after the blood is taken

out, since their hematocrit will be lower. Given this it appears that some

athletes are willing to use homologous blood, despite the risks of

transfusion reactions and transmission of disease. For homologous blood you

can cheat any time and you don't have to have a period of lower performance

waiting for you body to produce red cells. When the benefit of the

transfused blood begins to go away you can just take more blood (as well as

risk).



For the record, the US Olympic cycling team (which was the group to bring

this practice to light in 1984, although likely not the first to actually

use it, as is often mis-stated) used only homologous blood. Transfusions

were done in a hotel room. There were no records kept of cross matching of

the blood being done. Whole blood, rather than packed red cells were used.

It is my impression that they basically took the blood out of one individual

and then put it directly in another, rather like a procedure from the

medical dark ages. Makes one wonder what they were thinking, if anything.



Currently in regular medical practice it is more common to use autologous

blood for elective surgical procedures which are likely to require blood.

This has become more common primarily because of the AIDS epidemic and the

recognition of the considerable risk of transfusion. On the other hand, few

surgical procedures actually require blood. Most blood use is not elective.

Most medical blood use is homologous.



Mike Murray



Phil Bentley

2004-09-21



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My limited understanding is that "blood doping" was typically done with

your own blood? Taken out, stored and then reinjected before

competition. That would be auto. Tyler tested positive for homo, i.e.,

blood was from someone else. This would suggest that the transfusion

was related to surgery rather than doping.     



-----Original Message-----

From: markjgi-@yahoo.com [mailto:markjgi-@yahoo.com]

Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 11:26 AM

To: moh-@easystreet.com; ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] homologous vs. autologous



from another human versus from yourself



people who do elective surgery will go to the hospital before hand and

give their own blood to be used if needed in their surgery. If it were

used it would be auto.



if you go to the e/r and get blood (which sometimes isn't blood- i.e.

plazma etc) it came from another person- homo.



MG



Michael O'Hair <moh-@easystreet.com> wrote:

Mark J. Ginsberg

Attorney At Law

1001 SW 5th Ave., Ste. 1900

Portland, OR 97204

(503) 542-3000

Fax (503) 295-3720

markjgi-@yahoo.com

www.bikesafetylaw.com

_____



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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:

10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>My limited understanding is that “blood

doping” was typically done with your own blood?<span

style='mso-spacerun:yes'>  </span>Taken out, stored and then <span

class=SpellE>reinjected</span> before competition.<span

style='mso-spacerun:yes'>  </span>That would be auto.<span

style='mso-spacerun:yes'>  </span></span></font><st1:City><st1:place><font

size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;

color:navy'>Tyler</span></font></st1:place></st1:City><font size=2

color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;

color:navy'> tested positive for homo, i.e., blood was from someone else.<span

style='mso-spacerun:yes'>  </span>This would suggest that the transfusion

was related to surgery rather than doping.<span style='mso-spacerun:yes'> 

</span><span style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span><span

style='mso-spacerun:yes'>  </span><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>



<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:

10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>



<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span

style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original Message-----<br>

<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> markjgi-@yahoo.com

[mailto:markjgi-@yahoo.com] <br>

<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, September 21, 2004

11:26 AM<br>

<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> moh-@easystreet.com;

ob-@topica.com<br>

<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> RE: [OBRA Chat]

homologous vs. autologous</span></font></p>



<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span

style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>



<div>



<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span

style='font-size:12.0pt'>from another human versus from yourself<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>



</div>



<div>



<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span

style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>



</div>



<div>



<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span

style='font-size:12.0pt'>people who do elective surgery will go to the hospital

before hand and give their own blood to be used if needed in their surgery. If

it were used it would be auto.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>



</div>



<div>



<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span

style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>



</div>



<div>



<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span

style='font-size:12.0pt'>if you go to the e/r and get blood (which sometimes

isn't blood- i.e. plazma etc) it came from another person- homo.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>



</div>



<div>



<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span

style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>



</div>



<div>



<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span

style='font-size:12.0pt'>MG<br>

<br>

<b><i><span style='font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>Michael O'Hair

<moh-@easystreet.com></span></i></b> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>



</div>



<div>



<div>



<div>



<div>



<address style='margin-left:.5in'><i><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span

style='font-size:12.0pt'>Mark J. Ginsberg<o:p></o:p></span></font></i></address>



<address style='margin-left:.5in'><i><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span

style='font-size:12.0pt'>Attorney At Law<o:p></o:p></span></font></i></address>



<address style='margin-left:.5in'><i><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span

style='font-size:12.0pt'>1001 SW 5th Ave., Ste. 1900<o:p></o:p></span></font></i></address>



<address style='margin-left:.5in'><i><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span

style='font-size:12.0pt'>Portland, OR 97204<o:p></o:p></span></font></i></address>



<address style='margin-left:.5in'><i><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span

style='font-size:12.0pt'>(503) 542-3000<o:p></o:p></span></font></i></address>



<address style='margin-left:.5in'><i><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span

style='font-size:12.0pt'>Fax (503) 295-3720 <o:p></o:p></span></font></i></address>



<address style='margin-left:.5in'><i><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span

style='font-size:12.0pt'><a href="mailto:markjgi-@yahoo.com">markjgi-@yahoo.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></i></address>



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markjgi-@yahoo.com

2004-09-21



--0-553829770-1095791161=:4551

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from another human versus from yourself



people who do elective surgery will go to the hospital before hand and give their own blood to be used if needed in their surgery. If it were used it would be auto.



if you go to the e/r and get blood (which sometimes isn't blood- i.e. plazma etc) it came from another person- homo.



MG



Michael O'Hair <moh-@easystreet.com> wrote:

Paging Mike Murray or other medical professionals... Definitions for

"homologous" and "autologous" are needed. Thanks.





----- Original Message -----



At the Tour, it was

announced that homologous blood transfusions could be detected, but

autologous transfusions could not.



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com















Mark J. GinsbergAttorney At Law1001 SW 5th Ave., Ste. 1900Portland, OR 97204(503) 542-3000Fax (503) 295-3720 markjgi-@yahoo.comwww.bikesafetylaw.com













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<DIV>from another human versus from yourself</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>people who do elective surgery will go to the hospital before hand and give their own blood to be used if needed in their surgery. If it were used it would be auto.</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>if you go to the e/r and get blood (which sometimes isn't blood- i.e. plazma etc) it came from another person- homo.</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>MG<BR><BR><B><I>Michael O'Hair <moh-@easystreet.com></I></B> wrote:</DIV>

<DIV>

<DIV>

<DIV>

<DIV>

<ADDRESS>Mark J. Ginsberg</ADDRESS>

<ADDRESS>Attorney At Law</ADDRESS>

<ADDRESS>1001 SW 5th Ave., Ste. 1900</ADDRESS>

<ADDRESS>Portland, OR 97204</ADDRESS>

<ADDRESS>(503) 542-3000</ADDRESS>

<ADDRESS>Fax (503) 295-3720 </ADDRESS>

<ADDRESS><A href="mailto:markjgi-@yahoo.com">markjgi-@yahoo.com</A></ADDRESS>

<ADDRESS><A href="http://www.bikesafetylaw.com">www.bikesafetylaw.com</A> </ADDRESS></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV><p>

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Michael O'Hair

2004-09-21



Paging Mike Murray or other medical professionals... Definitions for

"homologous" and "autologous" are needed. Thanks.





----- Original Message -----



At the Tour, it was

announced that homologous blood transfusions could be detected, but

autologous transfusions could not.