Tyler...then who's next?

Oregon-@cs.com

2004-09-24



No, I don't think that would be funny at all.











Ken Ethridge <Distor-@aol.com> wrote:



 have any of you seen the old Saturday night live skit with the all drug

olympics? They promoted the use of steriods and enhancers. They showed this viking

looking guy trying to dead lift like 2000 pounds and he rips his arms off.

I think there should be something like that for cyclists. Lets let the guys

pump themselves full of drugs and someone elses blood and watch them fly off

the road or just sieze up on some hill. It might be pretty funny.



Ken E



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Distor-@aol.com

2004-09-24





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have any of you seen the old Saturday night live skit with the all drug

olympics? They promoted the use of steriods and enhancers. They showed this viking

looking guy trying to dead lift like 2000 pounds and he rips his arms off.

I think there should be something like that for cyclists. Lets let the guys

pump themselves full of drugs and someone elses blood and watch them fly off

the road or just sieze up on some hill. It might be pretty funny.



Ken E



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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><HTML><FONT COLOR="#0080ff" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=12 FAMILY="SCRIPT" FACE="Andy" LANG="0">have any of you seen the old Saturday night live skit with the all drug olympics? They promoted the use of steriods and enhancers. They showed this viking looking guy trying to dead lift like 2000 pounds and he rips his arms off. <BR>

I think there should be something like that for cyclists. Lets let the guys pump themselves full of drugs and someone elses blood and watch them fly off the road or just sieze up on some hill. It might be pretty funny.<BR>

<BR>

Ken E</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" BACK="#ffffff" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 PTSIZE=10 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>

</FONT></HTML>

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Craig Austin

2004-09-23



I noticed last night that two athletes from Azerbizjan (sp?) were thrown out

of the PARALYMPICS for illegal steroid use. So anyone who thinks amateur

cyclists don't or won't dope, think again.



Craig



-----Original Message-----

From: Jake Bigham [mailto:ja-@chesshirarchitecture.com]

Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 9:15 AM

To: mike.m-@obra.org

Cc: OBRA Remailer

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tyler...then who's next?





The following is opinion and obviously personal speculation, if you are

offended by that kind of thing read no further-

I am pretty new to bike racing and I haven't done much of it. My

first

PIR was 3 years ago and I don't think I will ever race above Cat 4, so

I am not pretending to know much at all about racing and the local

racing scene. Also I am not a doctor or a medical expert.

However, I do have normal powers of observation. I do remember the

first season a 4/5 guy who I think was clearly on the juice. He changed

from a moderately strong looking guy to the "hulk" in a season. he must

have added 15 lbs of muscle. Even his face changed and he lost a lot of

hair on his head. The guy's thighs were so massive by the end of the

season I would bet that all that muscle wasn't even helping him. No, I

don't know how he did as far as results, he was on some team or another

but I don't know which. Keep in mind this was only 4/5s! I can remember

mentioning to a friend how puzzling it was that this case looked so

obvious and yet I guess who could really have said anything about it?

The point is I would bet that there are a few (maybe quite a few)

who

are doing the same thing in Oregon and all over the world of amateur

sporting events, from the golf club to hockey to triathlons. Do any of

you remember the "Outside" magazine article on doping? It gave the

sense that there are a lot of "medications" that ordinary folks can get

there hands on if they want.

Perhaps I am seeing phantoms and making baseless accusations, maybe

I

am just a cynic. Or, perhaps performance enhancing products (and I'm

not talking about Accelerade here) are more common than we would like

to believe.

-Jake

On Sep 22, 2004, at 6:04 PM, mike.m-@obra.org wrote:



 Martel, Matthew S [mailto:matt_m-@hp.com]:

"I suspect that at the amateur level no one is doing this."



This is COMPLETELY inaccurate. There likely is a significant amount of

substance abuse in amatueur racing. It only seems that it is

concentrated at the elite level because the testing system has a

selection bias. If you only test elite level athletes you will only

catch elite level athletes.



Mike Murray



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

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Jake Bigham

2774 SW Summit Dr., Portland OR. 97201

503 228 1338

6125 Rowena River rd., The Dalles, OR. 97058

541 298 1999



m/ 503 419 8012



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Tim M.

2004-09-23



I think Pat Layton's on guava juice. What else could explain his

phenomenal win in single speed at the Estacada TT....oh yeh, he was

the only racer in his class.



----- Original Message -----

From: "Jake Bigham" <ja-@chesshirarchitecture.com>

To: <mike.m-@obra.org>

Cc: "OBRA Remailer" <ob-@topica.com>

Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 9:14 AM

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tyler...then who's next?





 The following is opinion and obviously personal speculation, if you are

offended by that kind of thing read no further-

I am pretty new to bike racing and I haven't done much of it. My first

PIR was 3 years ago and I don't think I will ever race above Cat 4, so

I am not pretending to know much at all about racing and the local

racing scene. Also I am not a doctor or a medical expert.

However, I do have normal powers of observation. I do remember the

first season a 4/5 guy who I think was clearly on the juice. He changed

from a moderately strong looking guy to the "hulk" in a season. he must

have added 15 lbs of muscle. Even his face changed and he lost a lot of

hair on his head. The guy's thighs were so massive by the end of the

season I would bet that all that muscle wasn't even helping him. No, I

don't know how he did as far as results, he was on some team or another

but I don't know which. Keep in mind this was only 4/5s! I can remember

mentioning to a friend how puzzling it was that this case looked so

obvious and yet I guess who could really have said anything about it?

The point is I would bet that there are a few (maybe quite a few) who

are doing the same thing in Oregon and all over the world of amateur

sporting events, from the golf club to hockey to triathlons. Do any of

you remember the "Outside" magazine article on doping? It gave the

sense that there are a lot of "medications" that ordinary folks can get

there hands on if they want.

Perhaps I am seeing phantoms and making baseless accusations, maybe I

am just a cynic. Or, perhaps performance enhancing products (and I'm

not talking about Accelerade here) are more common than we would like

to believe.

-Jake

On Sep 22, 2004, at 6:04 PM, mike.m-@obra.org wrote:



 Martel, Matthew S [mailto:matt_m-@hp.com]:

"I suspect that at the amateur level no one is doing this."



This is COMPLETELY inaccurate. There likely is a significant amount of

substance abuse in amatueur racing. It only seems that it is

concentrated at the elite level because the testing system has a

selection bias. If you only test elite level athletes you will only

catch elite level athletes.



Mike Murray



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

Jake Bigham

2774 SW Summit Dr., Portland OR. 97201

503 228 1338

6125 Rowena River rd., The Dalles, OR. 97058

541 298 1999



m/ 503 419 8012



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To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com



Jake Bigham

2004-09-23



The following is opinion and obviously personal speculation, if you are

offended by that kind of thing read no further-

I am pretty new to bike racing and I haven't done much of it. My first

PIR was 3 years ago and I don't think I will ever race above Cat 4, so

I am not pretending to know much at all about racing and the local

racing scene. Also I am not a doctor or a medical expert.

However, I do have normal powers of observation. I do remember the

first season a 4/5 guy who I think was clearly on the juice. He changed

from a moderately strong looking guy to the "hulk" in a season. he must

have added 15 lbs of muscle. Even his face changed and he lost a lot of

hair on his head. The guy's thighs were so massive by the end of the

season I would bet that all that muscle wasn't even helping him. No, I

don't know how he did as far as results, he was on some team or another

but I don't know which. Keep in mind this was only 4/5s! I can remember

mentioning to a friend how puzzling it was that this case looked so

obvious and yet I guess who could really have said anything about it?

The point is I would bet that there are a few (maybe quite a few) who

are doing the same thing in Oregon and all over the world of amateur

sporting events, from the golf club to hockey to triathlons. Do any of

you remember the "Outside" magazine article on doping? It gave the

sense that there are a lot of "medications" that ordinary folks can get

there hands on if they want.

Perhaps I am seeing phantoms and making baseless accusations, maybe I

am just a cynic. Or, perhaps performance enhancing products (and I'm

not talking about Accelerade here) are more common than we would like

to believe.

-Jake

On Sep 22, 2004, at 6:04 PM, mike.m-@obra.org wrote:



 Martel, Matthew S [mailto:matt_m-@hp.com]:

"I suspect that at the amateur level no one is doing this."



This is COMPLETELY inaccurate. There likely is a significant amount of

substance abuse in amatueur racing. It only seems that it is

concentrated at the elite level because the testing system has a

selection bias. If you only test elite level athletes you will only

catch elite level athletes.



Mike Murray



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

Jake Bigham

2774 SW Summit Dr., Portland OR. 97201

503 228 1338

6125 Rowena River rd., The Dalles, OR. 97058

541 298 1999



m/ 503 419 8012



Steve Ostrofsky

2004-09-22



Boy, you're right about that. I go back to the late 1960's, and amateurs

were taking stuff even then. The real issue was/is that most promoters can

just barely get their races off the ground (police permission, signage,

volunteers, etc., etc., etc.), much less get involved with testing.



Steve Ostrofsky





At 04:04 PM 9/22/2004, you wrote:

 Martel, Matthew S [mailto:matt_m-@hp.com]:

"I suspect that at the amateur level no one is doing this."



This is COMPLETELY inaccurate. There likely is a significant amount of

substance abuse in amatueur racing. It only seems that it is

concentrated at the elite level because the testing system has a

selection bias. If you only test elite level athletes you will only

catch elite level athletes.



Mike Murray



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To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com



Mark Wexler

2004-09-22



I've spoken with Matt several times and have a bunch of PA gear that I

still wear. Half the gruppo on my bike comes from Matt! Even I was

surprised and didn't know about much of this. He really is a cool guy.

--Mark



Scot Jarchow wrote:

 

Steve,



It appears you do not appreciate punk music; well I do so it was easy

for me to find at least three links that were interesting reads.



http://www.stolenunderground.com/id78.html

http://www.stolenunderground.com/id68.html

http://www.stolenunderground.com/id83.html



Matt DeCanio is a much more interesting person then I originally thought



he was.



Steve-@clark.wa.gov wrote:

 

Geez, you'd think you'd provide us with a complete link instead of

trying to

make us navigate that freaking mess of a website.



-----Original Message-----

From: amaz-@teleport.com [mailto:amaz-@teleport.com]

Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 11:46 AM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tyler...then who's next?





Face the facts if Tyler is doing this they all are, and cycling has no

hope

till this stops.

Check out this website www.stolenunderground.com this gives the real

inside

story of

whats going on. This is going on in the states to and this site proves

it.



Marty



Message:

-----------------

From: Clark Ritchie clarkr-@yahoo.com

Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 11:31:43 -0700 (PDT)

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tyler...then who's next?





Tyler has had his share of surgeries. Could this be

related to an operating room transfusion?



Now that I've clarified my complete and total lack of

any medical knowledge...



...CDR







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--------------------------------------------------------------------

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To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com







Mark Wexler

M&M Business Services

503.358.8308



mike.m-@obra.org

2004-09-22



Martel, Matthew S [mailto:matt_m-@hp.com]:

"I suspect that at the amateur level no one is doing this."



This is COMPLETELY inaccurate. There likely is a significant amount of

substance abuse in amatueur racing. It only seems that it is

concentrated at the elite level because the testing system has a

selection bias. If you only test elite level athletes you will only

catch elite level athletes.



Mike Murray



Scot Jarchow

2004-09-22



Steve,



It appears you do not appreciate punk music; well I do so it was easy

for me to find at least three links that were interesting reads.



http://www.stolenunderground.com/id78.html

http://www.stolenunderground.com/id68.html

http://www.stolenunderground.com/id83.html



Matt DeCanio is a much more interesting person then I originally thought

he was.



Steve-@clark.wa.gov wrote:

 

Geez, you'd think you'd provide us with a complete link instead of

trying to

make us navigate that freaking mess of a website.



-----Original Message-----

From: amaz-@teleport.com [mailto:amaz-@teleport.com]

Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 11:46 AM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tyler...then who's next?





Face the facts if Tyler is doing this they all are, and cycling has no

hope

till this stops.

Check out this website www.stolenunderground.com this gives the real

inside

story of

whats going on. This is going on in the states to and this site proves

it.



Marty



Message:

-----------------

From: Clark Ritchie clarkr-@yahoo.com

Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 11:31:43 -0700 (PDT)

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tyler...then who's next?





Tyler has had his share of surgeries. Could this be

related to an operating room transfusion?



Now that I've clarified my complete and total lack of

any medical knowledge...



...CDR







_______________________________

Do you Yahoo!?

Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com



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--------------------------------------------------------------------

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Aaron Espadron-Coker

2004-09-22



<html><div style='background-color:'><DIV class=RTE>

<P>Remember, at the professional level if you're not cheating you're not trying, and it's only cheating if you get caught.</P>

<P>-Aaron Coker<BR><BR></P></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>>From: Peter Murphy <murphy_-@hotmail.com>

<DIV></DIV>>Reply-To: murphy_-@hotmail.com

<DIV></DIV>>To: ob-@topica.com

<DIV></DIV>>Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Tyler...then who's next?

<DIV></DIV>>Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 12:31:56 -0700

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV>>Phonak has suspended Tyler

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV>>http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2004/sep04/sep22news3

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV>>Pete Murphy

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV>>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

<DIV></DIV>>To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

<DIV></DIV>>To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV></div><br clear=all><hr> <a href="http://g.msn.com/8HMAENUS/2752??PS=47575">FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar ? get it now!</a> </html>



Peter Murphy

2004-09-22

Steve-@clark.wa.gov

2004-09-22



Geez, you'd think you'd provide us with a complete link instead of trying to

make us navigate that freaking mess of a website.



-----Original Message-----

From: amaz-@teleport.com [mailto:amaz-@teleport.com]

Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 11:46 AM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tyler...then who's next?





Face the facts if Tyler is doing this they all are, and cycling has no hope

till this stops.

Check out this website www.stolenunderground.com this gives the real inside

story of

whats going on. This is going on in the states to and this site proves it.



Marty



Message:

-----------------

From: Clark Ritchie clarkr-@yahoo.com

Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 11:31:43 -0700 (PDT)

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tyler...then who's next?





Tyler has had his share of surgeries. Could this be

related to an operating room transfusion?



Now that I've clarified my complete and total lack of

any medical knowledge...



...CDR







_______________________________

Do you Yahoo!?

Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com





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amaz-@teleport.com

2004-09-22



Face the facts if Tyler is doing this they all are, and cycling has no hope

till this stops.

Check out this website www.stolenunderground.com this gives the real inside

story of

whats going on. This is going on in the states to and this site proves it.



Marty



Message:

-----------------

From: Clark Ritchie clarkr-@yahoo.com

Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 11:31:43 -0700 (PDT)

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tyler...then who's next?





Tyler has had his share of surgeries. Could this be

related to an operating room transfusion?



Now that I've clarified my complete and total lack of

any medical knowledge...



...CDR







_______________________________

Do you Yahoo!?

Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!

http://vote.yahoo.com



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Martel, Matthew S

2004-09-22



Shane -



I totally agree with you. I really bums me out. I suspect that at the amateur level no one is doing this. Maybe I am na?ve. I want to be competitive, but it is more about having fun and staying fit. At the pro level I suppose the pressure and temptation is higher to perform. But doping is just plain cheating. Athletes must train and race within the rules whether they agree with them or not.



I really enjoy following the pro races and cheering on my favorites. Especially the Americans!



I too need help to become an optimist again.



Matt Martel



-----Original Message-----

From: Shane Stent [mailto:sst-@msn.com]

Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 11:21 AM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Tyler...then who's next?





Are they all dirty? Are they all doing stuff under the radar? Pretty

disheartening if you ask me.



Is there anyone out there who truly is clean and relies solely on hard work

and talent? From where I am reading, there are less and less riders who are

"clean." Maybe we need to look at cycling with a little asterick like we do

baseball? Sad but maybe true.



Help me become an optimist again.



Signed,

Tired of my heroes being caught cheating



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

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Clark Ritchie

2004-09-22



Tyler has had his share of surgeries. Could this be

related to an operating room transfusion?



Now that I've clarified my complete and total lack of

any medical knowledge...



...CDR







_______________________________

Do you Yahoo!?

Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!

http://vote.yahoo.com



jo-@aracnet.com

2004-09-22



Perhaps we should all remember the old adage 'innocent until proven guilty' first. There are reasons why there are backup tests that are performed.



Joe



Shane Stent <sst-@msn.com> wrote :



 Are they all dirty? Are they all doing stuff under the radar? Pretty

disheartening if you ask me.



Is there anyone out there who truly is clean and relies solely on hard work

and talent? From where I am reading, there are less and less riders who are

"clean." Maybe we need to look at cycling with a little asterick like

we do

baseball? Sad but maybe true.



Help me become an optimist again.



Signed,

Tired of my heroes being caught cheating



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

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Tris-@aol.com

2004-09-22





--part1_105.51509fad.2e831e53_boundary

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Wow, I'm amazed no one even thinks of Tyler being innocent.? I mean

seriously, homologous blood doping.? As in, take someone else's transfusion.? No

out-of-competition stuff with drawing your own blood and saving it, just drip it on

over.?



I know many will think I'm a total Pollyanna, but there are some people that

you would be very surprised to hear were doping, guys (or gals) who have been

there or thereabouts for so long and with such a reputation that it would give

you pause.? Especially given that they are tested ALL the time and that it's

a brand-new, pre-announced test.? If Frischknecht, or Jens Fiedler, or Dede

Barry, or many others I could name were positive in similar circumstances I

would wonder about the test.?



There are tests which are definitely suspect, due to their nature: the

hematocrit test and nandrolone metabolites test WILL turn up false positives, as has

been shown in peer-reviewed research.? There are people who fall outside the

norms, and they are affected a lot by stress, hydration, etc.? Any brand new

test should be observed with a bit of skepticism, especially when the positives

fall about a month apart and the athlete is the first to test positive.? Do

we even know if he had an elevated 'crit?? If not, why the hell would he have

taken the transfusion?



Part of this is because I know many people who have ridden a lot with Tyler

on the East Coast; I've only met him on one training ride.? But he has not done

anything to suggest this in the past.



Rose tinted,

Ian



--part1_105.51509fad.2e831e53_boundary

Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit



<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><HTML><FONT COLOR="#000000" FACE="Geneva" FAMILY="SANSSERIF" SIZE="2">Wow, I'm amazed no one even thinks of Tyler being innocent.? I mean seriously, homologous blood doping.? As in, take someone else's transfusion.? No out-of-competition stuff with drawing your own blood and saving it, just drip it on over.?<BR>

<BR>

I know many will think I'm a total Pollyanna, but there are some people that you would be very surprised to hear were doping, guys (or gals) who have been there or thereabouts for so long and with such a reputation that it would give you pause.? Especially given that they are tested ALL the time and that it's a brand-new, pre-announced test.? If Frischknecht, or Jens Fiedler, or Dede Barry, or many others I could name were positive in similar circumstances I would wonder about the test.?<BR>

<BR>

There are tests which are definitely suspect, due to their nature: the hematocrit test and nandrolone metabolites test WILL turn up false positives, as has been shown in peer-reviewed research.? There are people who fall outside the norms, and they are affected a lot by stress, hydration, etc.? Any brand new test should be observed with a bit of skepticism, especially when the positives fall about a month apart and the athlete is the first to test positive.? Do we even know if he had an elevated 'crit?? If not, why the hell would he have taken the transfusion?<BR>

<BR>

Part of this is because I know many people who have ridden a lot with Tyler on the East Coast; I've only met him on one training ride.? But he has not done anything to suggest this in the past.<BR>

<BR>

Rose tinted,<BR>

Ian</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" FACE="Geneva" FAMILY="SANSSERIF" SIZE="2"></FONT></HTML>



--part1_105.51509fad.2e831e53_boundary--



Shane Stent

2004-09-22



Are they all dirty? Are they all doing stuff under the radar? Pretty

disheartening if you ask me.



Is there anyone out there who truly is clean and relies solely on hard work

and talent? From where I am reading, there are less and less riders who are

"clean." Maybe we need to look at cycling with a little asterick like we do

baseball? Sad but maybe true.



Help me become an optimist again.



Signed,

Tired of my heroes being caught cheating