RE: Spam Alert: Re: Tyler...then who's next?

Tris-@aol.com

2004-09-22





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Sorry, I didn't correctly refer to a high hematocrit test correctly; I did in

fact mean that there are many factors which can elevate the hematocrit which

do not suggest blood doping, rather than referring to it as a false positive.

And of course raising the hematocrit/hemoglobin would be the goal with blood

doping, I only meant to suggest that if he showed "anomalies" with a 'crit of

41 I would be less likely to think something was going on than if his 'crit

were 48-49.



Although dietary supplements (and even energy bars) have been shown to

contain prohormones which would seriously light up a nandrolone test, there is also

some research (International Journal of Sports Med maybe, I'd need to look it

up) which displays that those who are not on anything in particular can

occasionally fail a nandrolone test, at 10% or more of tests for those individuals.

I believe the allowable limit was like 7mcg/L or some such for nandrolone

metabolites; many people will test at up to 12-14mcg/L due to recent hard

training, and not solely due to hemoconcentration.   The prohormone types, of

course, will hit the jackpot at 10,000 or so like Marion Jones' shotputter husband.





Cheers,

Ian

P.S.- I may be off on units of measure (maybe pcg/L or such), but the general

idea is there.



In a message dated 9/22/04 4:04:52 PM, mike.m-@obra.org writes:



 Ian has a point but also some inaccuracies.? The hematocrit test does

not really have significant false positives it is just that a high

hematocrit is not necessarily solely secondary to blood doping.? The

nandrolone test is also specific but the alluded to research has shown

the presence of nandrolone in dietary supplements indicating that the "I

didn't know I took it" excuse is often accurate.? We don't know much

about the new test that Tyler failed.? The material I have read in the

press about the new doesn't really make much sense.? We do not know

about the accuracy.? I should also point out that there is incentive to

blood dope even if the hematocrit is not above the limit since raising

the hematocrit to the highest allowable limit is the goal.? Most

athletes will be significantly below the limit without use of some

artificial manipulation.?





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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><HTML><FONT COLOR="#000000" FACE="Geneva" FAMILY="SANSSERIF" SIZE="2">Sorry, I didn't correctly refer to a high hematocrit test correctly; I did in fact mean that there are many factors which can elevate the hematocrit which do not suggest blood doping, rather than referring to it as a false positive.  And of course raising the hematocrit/hemoglobin would be the goal with blood doping, I only meant to suggest that if he showed "anomalies" with a 'crit of 41 I would be less likely to think something was going on than if his 'crit were 48-49.<BR>

<BR>

Although dietary supplements (and even energy bars) have been shown to contain prohormones which would seriously light up a nandrolone test, there is also some research (International Journal of Sports Med maybe, I'd need to look it up) which displays that those who are not on anything in particular can occasionally fail a nandrolone test, at 10% or more of tests for those individuals.  I believe the allowable limit was like 7mcg/L or some such for nandrolone metabolites; many people will test at up to 12-14mcg/L due to recent hard training, and not solely due to hemoconcentration.  The prohormone types, of course, will hit the jackpot at 10,000 or so like Marion Jones' shotputter husband.  <BR>

<BR>

Cheers,<BR>

Ian<BR>

P.S.- I may be off on units of measure (maybe pcg/L or such), but the general idea is there.<BR>

<BR>

In a message dated 9/22/04 4:04:52 PM, mike.m-@obra.org writes:<BR>

<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE CITE STYLE="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px" TYPE="CITE"></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" FACE="Geneva" FAMILY="SANSSERIF" SIZE="2">Ian has a point but also some inaccuracies.? The hematocrit test does<BR>

not really have significant false positives it is just that a high<BR>

hematocrit is not necessarily solely secondary to blood doping.? The<BR>

nandrolone test is also specific but the alluded to research has shown<BR>

the presence of nandrolone in dietary supplements indicating that the "I<BR>

didn't know I took it" excuse is often accurate.? We don't know much<BR>

about the new test that Tyler failed.? The material I have read in the<BR>

press about the new doesn't really make much sense.? We do not know<BR>

about the accuracy.? I should also point out that there is incentive to<BR>

blood dope even if the hematocrit is not above the limit since raising<BR>

the hematocrit to the highest allowable limit is the goal.? Most<BR>

athletes will be significantly below the limit without use of some<BR>

artificial manipulation.?<BR>

</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" FACE="Geneva" FAMILY="SANSSERIF" SIZE="2"><BR>

<BR>

</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" FACE="Geneva" FAMILY="SANSSERIF" SIZE="2"></FONT></HTML>

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mike.m-@obra.org

2004-09-22



tris-@aol.com [mailto:tris-@aol.com] wrote:

"There are tests which are definitely suspect, due to their nature: the

hematocrit test and nandrolone metabolites test WILL turn up false

positives, as has been shown in peer-reviewed research. There are

people who fall outside the norms, and they are affected a lot by

stress, hydration, etc. Any brand new test should be observed with a

bit of skepticism, especially when the positives fall about a month

apart and the athlete is the first to test positive. Do we even know if

he had an elevated 'crit? If not, why the hell would he have taken the

transfusion?"



Ian has a point but also some inaccuracies. The hematocrit test does

not really have significant false positives it is just that a high

hematocrit is not necessarily solely secondary to blood doping. The

nandrolone test is also specific but the alluded to research has shown

the presence of nandrolone in dietary supplements indicating that the "I

didn't know I took it" excuse is often accurate. We don't know much

about the new test that Tyler failed. The material I have read in the

press about the new doesn't really make much sense. We do not know

about the accuracy. I should also point out that there is incentive to

blood dope even if the hematocrit is not above the limit since raising

the hematocrit to the highest allowable limit is the goal. Most

athletes will be significantly below the limit without use of some

artificial manipulation.



Mike Murray