Galen Mittermann

I can't help but toss in my $0.02. I am not a junior not the parent of juniors, but the logic of the whole debate strikes me as a bit funny.

How is restricting big gears going to teach a kid how to spin? Yes, they may be obligated to ride a higher cadence at 25mph than they would self select, but a 52x14 is going to be a grind any other time. Like, when the road goes up. Or there is wind. Or a TT. Or anything other than a flat, fast road (how many races around here have nothing but that?). If you want to make them spin, mandate cadences and hand out time penalities if they slip below 85rpm. Or let parents yell at them "Spin, Junior!" from the back of an official's car until they do it. Give coaches remote control gear shifters to remove self selection of gears from the equation. Making somebody run out of gear at 25mph+ isnt going to prevent them from being way overgeared at 10mph, is it? The gotta learn to shift to the right gear before they spin that gear!

All kidding aside, wouldn't it be better to mandate the presence of lower gears to at least know a spin is possible in most circumstances? Something equivalent to, say, a 34-48 with a 14-27 ought to work. Are we worried about limited top end speed to equalize sprints or teaching them to spin on Oregon roads? Give them a low enough gear to spin with, and maybe they will use it. Maybe they shouldn't be allowed to race hills with a 38x23 as their lowest gear. I know I wouldn't! (I run 36-50 with 12-25 for everything in the 3's and never spin out)

Still, while a 34x27 would give lovely spin on a 7% grade, 48x27 or 34x14 wouldnt. So as long as there are shifters on the bikes, I really don't see the logic in claiming that limited big gears is going teach kids to spin. A coach, parent, teammate, or mentor has to do that.

And I'm done stirring this pot.

Galen

____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a PS3 game guru.
Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games.
http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121

Edward Kendrick Sr

The value of high RPM's should not be debated. High RPM's are good.

I will send an e-mail to USCF to complain about Junior gearing. Adults give young people a very shitty time! Damn it!

Here is my shit list:
Sky rocketting college tuition.
Astronomical car insurance.
Drinking age, 21.
Seat belt laws.
Mom is never home.
Taxes on studends.
Ruined environment.
Cops in schools.
Required physical exams (sick!)
Minimum wage.
Gearing restrictions.
No more national heros.

Adults abuse their power and pat themselves on the back for it. Unnecessary. Sorrowful.

Dave Palmer wrote:
Sorry Mike,

With all respect here, I don't think there are many OBRA members out there,
with a "shorter" perspective than yours. As far as length of time in, and
service to, the OCA and now OBRA, you definitely stand taller than the rest
of us. I have always respected your opinion, even if I don't agree with it.
I do think that USAC will keep this rule for a few years, unless there is a
large enough protest from their members to change it.

Sincerely,

Dave Palmer

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Murray"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 9:49 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Junior gearing

Dave should have said "What is new FOR THIS YEAR...". If you care, pay
attention. They will change it again next year. The USCF gear limits have
gone up and down, been required for all races or just Junior races, appeared
and disappeared over the many years I have been involved. Dave just has a
shorter perspective than I do.

Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Palmer [mailto:palm615@comcast.net]
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 22:35 PM
To: mike.murray@obra.org; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Junior gearing

Mike and David,

The gear limits themselves aren't a new rule, they've been around for many
years. It's been a subject for debate for just as long, with good arguments
on both sides.
What is new, is that a junior must now adhere to the limits in any race, not
just in a junior race. If the limits are actually in effect to reduce
injury, and promote a good pedaling technique, then it was "plan
dumb" (sorry Mike), to allow the Juniors to race without the limits when
competing in Senior events. The new rule is in fact less hypocritical than
the policy of no limit when racing in a Senior event. As far as road
equipment goes, Shimano and Campy still make 52 tooth rings and junior
cassettes starting with a 14 tooth cog, so meeting the 7.93 meter
requirement isn't difficult at all. If anyone says "My kid would have won
that race if he would have had a bigger gear", then maybe they're the ones
pushing a little too hard. I don't like USAC,
and I'm sure glad we're not part of it, but I did attach an excerpt of a
letter from their CEO Steve Johnson to a concerned parent in New England
regarding the new rule.

Good night,

Dave Palmer

The concept of "Jr. gears" was not developed in the US, but is a rule of the
International Cycling Union (UCI). While "experts" may argue the logic of
the rule, you cannot argue the equalizing effect that it has on riders at
different stages of development. Because cycling is an international sport
and we must compete on the same playing field as any other country, we have
been moving steadily in the direction of harmonizing our rules with those of
the UCI. Having been involved in this process, I can tell you we heard
similar concerns about "damaging the sport" when we implemented the gear
restrictions for juniors in the first place. However, since that time, the
number of licensed Jrs. has more than doubled.

I can assure you that USA Cycling takes these kinds of decisions very
seriously and solicits input from multiple sources prior to moving forward.
Toward that end, this topic was a point of discussion at the "Town Hall"
meeting at this year´s Junior National Road Championships; and the general
consensus of the coaches and parents present at the meeting was that
restricting gearing in all races for Jrs. was a good idea.

You may also be surprised to know that, in addition to limiting Jr. gearing,
many countries will not allow Jrs. to ride with elite (19 and over) athletes
and limit the number of events that Jrs. are allowed to ride each year. We
have not moved to prevent Jrs. from riding with elites because of the
limited number of Jr-only events on the domestic calendar. At this point,
we would prefer to allow Jrs. to ride with older riders so they may gain
valuable racing experience, while still respecting the gear restrictions
recommended by the International Cycling Union. I hope you agree this is an
acceptable compromise.

All the best,

Steve Johnson

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Murray"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 6:03 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Juniors-If you race out of state read this

> USAC has had this rule come and go in various versions over many years
> now, including rules that mandated gears that could not really even be
> done with
> modern gear systems without use of a machine shop. I could almost see
> applicability for track or other fixed gear racing but for road racing the
> idea is just plan dumb. To my knowledge no one has brought this idea
> before
> OBRA and I hope it stays that way.
>
> Mike Murray
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org]
> On Behalf Of David Auker
> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 23:21 PM
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Juniors-If you race out of state read this
>
>
> Ah, sorry, I was wrong when I said:
>> Anyway, shouldn't the following say:
>>
>> "If the crank arms complete more than a full revolution in this
>> distance, the bike fails." ??
>>
>> instead of:
>>
>>> The bike is rolled backwards straight towards the other mark until
>>> the crank arms have completed a full revolution. If the crank arms
>>> do not
> complete a full revolution in this distance, the bike fails.
>>>
> :-[
>
> I think it's good (and interesting) OBRA doesn't have the gear
> restrictions. Has there ever been a push for this? Has USA Cycling
> had this all along? I remember it a long time ago, but this seems to
> be worded as a "new" rule.?
>
> David
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

---------------------------------
Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast
with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut.

John Benenate

When savvy juniors get all geared up this spring baby
blue is just fabulous. From Paris to Milan mavins and
maestros are looking to Junior gearing for fashion
clues, and blue, blue, blue is all the rage no matter
how you spin it.

____________________________________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Music Unlimited
Access over 1 million songs.
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Dave Palmer

Sorry Mike,

With all respect here, I don't think there are many OBRA members out there,
with a "shorter" perspective than yours. As far as length of time in, and
service to, the OCA and now OBRA, you definitely stand taller than the rest
of us. I have always respected your opinion, even if I don't agree with it.
I do think that USAC will keep this rule for a few years, unless there is a
large enough protest from their members to change it.

Sincerely,

Dave Palmer

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Murray"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 9:49 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Junior gearing

Dave should have said "What is new FOR THIS YEAR...". If you care, pay
attention. They will change it again next year. The USCF gear limits have
gone up and down, been required for all races or just Junior races, appeared
and disappeared over the many years I have been involved. Dave just has a
shorter perspective than I do.

Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Palmer [mailto:palm615@comcast.net]
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 22:35 PM
To: mike.murray@obra.org; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Junior gearing

Mike and David,

The gear limits themselves aren't a new rule, they've been around for many
years. It's been a subject for debate for just as long, with good arguments
on both sides.
What is new, is that a junior must now adhere to the limits in any race, not
just in a junior race. If the limits are actually in effect to reduce
injury, and promote a good pedaling technique, then it was "plan
dumb" (sorry Mike), to allow the Juniors to race without the limits when
competing in Senior events. The new rule is in fact less hypocritical than
the policy of no limit when racing in a Senior event. As far as road
equipment goes, Shimano and Campy still make 52 tooth rings and junior
cassettes starting with a 14 tooth cog, so meeting the 7.93 meter
requirement isn't difficult at all. If anyone says "My kid would have won
that race if he would have had a bigger gear", then maybe they're the ones
pushing a little too hard. I don't like USAC,
and I'm sure glad we're not part of it, but I did attach an excerpt of a
letter from their CEO Steve Johnson to a concerned parent in New England
regarding the new rule.

Good night,

Dave Palmer

The concept of "Jr. gears" was not developed in the US, but is a rule of the
International Cycling Union (UCI). While "experts" may argue the logic of
the rule, you cannot argue the equalizing effect that it has on riders at
different stages of development. Because cycling is an international sport
and we must compete on the same playing field as any other country, we have
been moving steadily in the direction of harmonizing our rules with those of
the UCI. Having been involved in this process, I can tell you we heard
similar concerns about "damaging the sport" when we implemented the gear
restrictions for juniors in the first place. However, since that time, the
number of licensed Jrs. has more than doubled.

I can assure you that USA Cycling takes these kinds of decisions very
seriously and solicits input from multiple sources prior to moving forward.
Toward that end, this topic was a point of discussion at the "Town Hall"
meeting at this year´s Junior National Road Championships; and the general
consensus of the coaches and parents present at the meeting was that
restricting gearing in all races for Jrs. was a good idea.

You may also be surprised to know that, in addition to limiting Jr. gearing,
many countries will not allow Jrs. to ride with elite (19 and over) athletes
and limit the number of events that Jrs. are allowed to ride each year. We
have not moved to prevent Jrs. from riding with elites because of the
limited number of Jr-only events on the domestic calendar. At this point,
we would prefer to allow Jrs. to ride with older riders so they may gain
valuable racing experience, while still respecting the gear restrictions
recommended by the International Cycling Union. I hope you agree this is an
acceptable compromise.

All the best,

Steve Johnson

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Murray"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 6:03 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Juniors-If you race out of state read this

> USAC has had this rule come and go in various versions over many years
> now, including rules that mandated gears that could not really even be
> done with
> modern gear systems without use of a machine shop. I could almost see
> applicability for track or other fixed gear racing but for road racing the
> idea is just plan dumb. To my knowledge no one has brought this idea
> before
> OBRA and I hope it stays that way.
>
> Mike Murray
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org]
> On Behalf Of David Auker
> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 23:21 PM
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Juniors-If you race out of state read this
>
>
> Ah, sorry, I was wrong when I said:
>> Anyway, shouldn't the following say:
>>
>> "If the crank arms complete more than a full revolution in this
>> distance, the bike fails." ??
>>
>> instead of:
>>
>>> The bike is rolled backwards straight towards the other mark until
>>> the crank arms have completed a full revolution. If the crank arms
>>> do not
> complete a full revolution in this distance, the bike fails.
>>>
> :-[
>
> I think it's good (and interesting) OBRA doesn't have the gear
> restrictions. Has there ever been a push for this? Has USA Cycling
> had this all along? I remember it a long time ago, but this seems to
> be worded as a "new" rule.?
>
> David
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Mike Murray

Dave should have said "What is new FOR THIS YEAR...". If you care, pay
attention. They will change it again next year. The USCF gear limits have
gone up and down, been required for all races or just Junior races, appeared
and disappeared over the many years I have been involved. Dave just has a
shorter perspective than I do.

Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Palmer [mailto:palm615@comcast.net]
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 22:35 PM
To: mike.murray@obra.org; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Junior gearing

Mike and David,

The gear limits themselves aren't a new rule, they've been around for many
years. It's been a subject for debate for just as long, with good arguments
on both sides.
What is new, is that a junior must now adhere to the limits in any race, not
just in a junior race. If the limits are actually in effect to reduce
injury, and promote a good pedaling technique, then it was "plan
dumb" (sorry Mike), to allow the Juniors to race without the limits when
competing in Senior events. The new rule is in fact less hypocritical than
the policy of no limit when racing in a Senior event. As far as road
equipment goes, Shimano and Campy still make 52 tooth rings and junior
cassettes starting with a 14 tooth cog, so meeting the 7.93 meter
requirement isn't difficult at all. If anyone says "My kid would have won
that race if he would have had a bigger gear", then maybe they're the ones
pushing a little too hard. I don't like USAC,
and I'm sure glad we're not part of it, but I did attach an excerpt of a
letter from their CEO Steve Johnson to a concerned parent in New England
regarding the new rule.

Good night,

Dave Palmer

The concept of "Jr. gears" was not developed in the US, but is a rule of the
International Cycling Union (UCI). While "experts" may argue the logic of
the rule, you cannot argue the equalizing effect that it has on riders at
different stages of development. Because cycling is an international sport
and we must compete on the same playing field as any other country, we have
been moving steadily in the direction of harmonizing our rules with those of
the UCI. Having been involved in this process, I can tell you we heard
similar concerns about "damaging the sport" when we implemented the gear
restrictions for juniors in the first place. However, since that time, the
number of licensed Jrs. has more than doubled.

I can assure you that USA Cycling takes these kinds of decisions very
seriously and solicits input from multiple sources prior to moving forward.
Toward that end, this topic was a point of discussion at the "Town Hall"
meeting at this year´s Junior National Road Championships; and the general
consensus of the coaches and parents present at the meeting was that
restricting gearing in all races for Jrs. was a good idea.

You may also be surprised to know that, in addition to limiting Jr. gearing,
many countries will not allow Jrs. to ride with elite (19 and over) athletes
and limit the number of events that Jrs. are allowed to ride each year. We
have not moved to prevent Jrs. from riding with elites because of the
limited number of Jr-only events on the domestic calendar. At this point,
we would prefer to allow Jrs. to ride with older riders so they may gain
valuable racing experience, while still respecting the gear restrictions
recommended by the International Cycling Union. I hope you agree this is an
acceptable compromise.

All the best,

Steve Johnson

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Murray"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 6:03 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Juniors-If you race out of state read this

> USAC has had this rule come and go in various versions over many years
> now, including rules that mandated gears that could not really even be
> done with
> modern gear systems without use of a machine shop. I could almost see
> applicability for track or other fixed gear racing but for road racing the
> idea is just plan dumb. To my knowledge no one has brought this idea
> before
> OBRA and I hope it stays that way.
>
> Mike Murray
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org]
> On Behalf Of David Auker
> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 23:21 PM
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Juniors-If you race out of state read this
>
>
> Ah, sorry, I was wrong when I said:
>> Anyway, shouldn't the following say:
>>
>> "If the crank arms complete more than a full revolution in this
>> distance, the bike fails." ??
>>
>> instead of:
>>
>>> The bike is rolled backwards straight towards the other mark until
>>> the crank arms have completed a full revolution. If the crank arms
>>> do not
> complete a full revolution in this distance, the bike fails.
>>>
> :-[
>
> I think it's good (and interesting) OBRA doesn't have the gear
> restrictions. Has there ever been a push for this? Has USA Cycling
> had this all along? I remember it a long time ago, but this seems to
> be worded as a "new" rule.?
>
> David
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Evan MacKenzie

I am not a junior, and even when I was I only raced mountain bikes. It
wasn't until my indoor training last winter with Phil and all his BBC
kids that taught me how to spin. I was pretty much a gear masher, not
comfortable over a cadence of 100, and really struggling to stay smooth
at even 120. Thanks to Phil's encouragement, and my jealousy over
watching some of his kids pedal a really high cadence, I gave it a shot.
Pretty soon I was able to pedal in excess of 190rpm on the rollers. What
a difference it made. Last summer when I would use my wife's bike at the
track, I always wanted smaller gears so I could spin more, not less.
While everybody at PIR was gearing up for the final sprint, I was
staying put and spinning it out. I didn't win any sprints, but I was
able to keep up without even getting out of the saddle. Thanks Phil.

I would hate for some of our more promising juniors to have to wait as
long as I did to learn how to spin.

-Evan

Evan MacKenzie

Urban Planner I

City of Hillsboro

150 E. Main Street, 4th floor

Hillsboro, OR 97123

503-681-6154

evanm@ci.hillsboro.or.us

http://www.ci.hillsboro.or.us/Planning_Department/

Try Hillsboro Maps!

Tons of info on any (addressed) property in Hillsboro

http://hillsboromaps.ci.hillsboro.or.us/hillsboro/index.cfm

------------- __o
---------- _ '\<,_
----------(_)/ (_)______Get on your bikes and ride!

Luciano bailey

i think Dan hit it on the head mashing comes natural cadence on the other
hand is a discipline learned over time. Surely Lance put all rumors to rest
that spin can't win, with his command of the cadence sciences. The
restriction has really developed juniors on the track were they are forced
to pace riders which much bgger gear. So spin young legs spin!!

>From: "Dan H"
>To: "Dave Palmer" ,
>,
>Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Junior gearing
>Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 22:57:06 -0800
>
>"My kid would have won that race if he would have had a bigger gear"
>I'm reminded of the time I competed as a cat. III in an omnium called Pear
>Blossom or something like that. I was 19 and for some reason cat. IIIs and
>juniors were combined in the somewhat hilly road race. There were three
>juniors I couldn't shake in the hills (I think one was Darrel Batke) and
>the
>four of us finished together. When I saw the finish I instinctively shifted
>into the biggest gear I had (52X13) and commenced mashing figuring I could
>out power the kids. After I crossed the line in the 4th place Darrel said
>it looked like I was over geared and that the junior gear restriction
>helped
>him and the other kids keep their cadence up. That was just one of many
>lessons learned.
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Dave Palmer"
>To: ;
>Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 10:34 PM
>Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Junior gearing
>
>
>Mike and David,
>
>The gear limits themselves aren't a new rule, they've been around for many
>years. It's been a subject for debate for just as long, with good arguments
>on both sides.
>What is new, is that a junior must now adhere to the limits in any
>race, not just in a junior race. If the limits are actually in effect to
>reduce injury, and promote a good pedaling technique, then it was "plan
>dumb" (sorry Mike), to allow the Juniors to race without the limits when
>competing in Senior events. The new rule is in fact less hypocritical than
>the policy of no limit when racing in a Senior event. As far as road
>equipment goes, Shimano and Campy still make 52 tooth rings and junior
>cassettes starting with a 14 tooth cog, so meeting the 7.93 meter
>requirement isn't difficult at all. If anyone says "My kid would have won
>that race if he would have had a bigger gear", then maybe they're the ones
>pushing a little too hard. I don't like USAC,
>and I'm sure glad we're not part of it, but I did attach an excerpt of a
>letter from their CEO Steve Johnson to a concerned parent in New England
>regarding the new rule.
>
>Good night,
>
>Dave Palmer
>
>The concept of "Jr. gears" was not developed in the US, but is a rule of
>the
>International Cycling Union (UCI). While "experts" may argue the logic of
>the rule, you cannot argue the equalizing effect that it has on riders at
>different stages of development. Because cycling is an international sport
>and we must compete on the same playing field as any other country, we have
>been moving steadily in the direction of harmonizing our rules with those
>of
>the UCI. Having been involved in this process, I can tell you we heard
>similar concerns about "damaging the sport" when we implemented the gear
>restrictions for juniors in the first place. However, since that time, the
>number of licensed Jrs. has more than doubled.
>
>I can assure you that USA Cycling takes these kinds of decisions very
>seriously and solicits input from multiple sources prior to moving forward.
>Toward that end, this topic was a point of discussion at the "Town Hall"
>meeting at this year?s Junior National Road Championships; and the general
>consensus of the coaches and parents present at the meeting was that
>restricting gearing in all races for Jrs. was a good idea.
>
>You may also be surprised to know that, in addition to limiting Jr.
>gearing,
>many countries will not allow Jrs. to ride with elite (19 and over)
>athletes
>and limit the number of events that Jrs. are allowed to ride each year. We
>have not moved to prevent Jrs. from riding with elites because of the
>limited number of Jr-only events on the domestic calendar. At this point,
>we would prefer to allow Jrs. to ride with older riders so they may gain
>valuable racing experience, while still respecting the gear restrictions
>recommended by the International Cycling Union. I hope you agree this is
>an
>acceptable compromise.
>
>All the best,
>
>Steve Johnson
>
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Mike Murray"
>To:
>Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 6:03 PM
>Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Juniors-If you race out of state read this
>
>
> > USAC has had this rule come and go in various versions over many years
> > now,
> > including rules that mandated gears that could not really even be done
> > with
> > modern gear systems without use of a machine shop. I could almost see
> > applicability for track or other fixed gear racing but for road racing
>the
> > idea is just plan dumb. To my knowledge no one has brought this idea
> > before
> > OBRA and I hope it stays that way.
> >
> > Mike Murray
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
> > Behalf Of David Auker
> > Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 23:21 PM
> > To: obra@list.obra.org
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Juniors-If you race out of state read this
> >
> >
> > Ah, sorry, I was wrong when I said:
> >> Anyway, shouldn't the following say:
> >>
> >> "If the crank arms complete more than a full revolution in this
> >> distance, the bike fails." ??
> >>
> >> instead of:
> >>
> >>> The bike is rolled backwards straight towards the other mark until
> >>> the crank arms have completed a full revolution. If the crank arms do
> >>> not
> > complete a full revolution in this distance, the bike fails.
> >>>
> > :-[
> >
> > I think it's good (and interesting) OBRA doesn't have the gear
> > restrictions. Has there ever been a push for this? Has USA Cycling had
> > this all along? I remember it a long time ago, but this seems to be
> > worded as a "new" rule.?
> >
> > David
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>OBRA mailing list
>obra@list.obra.org
>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>OBRA mailing list
>obra@list.obra.org
>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Dan H

"My kid would have won that race if he would have had a bigger gear"
I'm reminded of the time I competed as a cat. III in an omnium called Pear
Blossom or something like that. I was 19 and for some reason cat. IIIs and
juniors were combined in the somewhat hilly road race. There were three
juniors I couldn't shake in the hills (I think one was Darrel Batke) and the
four of us finished together. When I saw the finish I instinctively shifted
into the biggest gear I had (52X13) and commenced mashing figuring I could
out power the kids. After I crossed the line in the 4th place Darrel said
it looked like I was over geared and that the junior gear restriction helped
him and the other kids keep their cadence up. That was just one of many
lessons learned.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Palmer"
To: ;
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 10:34 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Junior gearing

Mike and David,

The gear limits themselves aren't a new rule, they've been around for many
years. It's been a subject for debate for just as long, with good arguments
on both sides.
What is new, is that a junior must now adhere to the limits in any
race, not just in a junior race. If the limits are actually in effect to
reduce injury, and promote a good pedaling technique, then it was "plan
dumb" (sorry Mike), to allow the Juniors to race without the limits when
competing in Senior events. The new rule is in fact less hypocritical than
the policy of no limit when racing in a Senior event. As far as road
equipment goes, Shimano and Campy still make 52 tooth rings and junior
cassettes starting with a 14 tooth cog, so meeting the 7.93 meter
requirement isn't difficult at all. If anyone says "My kid would have won
that race if he would have had a bigger gear", then maybe they're the ones
pushing a little too hard. I don't like USAC,
and I'm sure glad we're not part of it, but I did attach an excerpt of a
letter from their CEO Steve Johnson to a concerned parent in New England
regarding the new rule.

Good night,

Dave Palmer

The concept of "Jr. gears" was not developed in the US, but is a rule of the
International Cycling Union (UCI). While "experts" may argue the logic of
the rule, you cannot argue the equalizing effect that it has on riders at
different stages of development. Because cycling is an international sport
and we must compete on the same playing field as any other country, we have
been moving steadily in the direction of harmonizing our rules with those of
the UCI. Having been involved in this process, I can tell you we heard
similar concerns about "damaging the sport" when we implemented the gear
restrictions for juniors in the first place. However, since that time, the
number of licensed Jrs. has more than doubled.

I can assure you that USA Cycling takes these kinds of decisions very
seriously and solicits input from multiple sources prior to moving forward.
Toward that end, this topic was a point of discussion at the "Town Hall"
meeting at this year´s Junior National Road Championships; and the general
consensus of the coaches and parents present at the meeting was that
restricting gearing in all races for Jrs. was a good idea.

You may also be surprised to know that, in addition to limiting Jr. gearing,
many countries will not allow Jrs. to ride with elite (19 and over) athletes
and limit the number of events that Jrs. are allowed to ride each year. We
have not moved to prevent Jrs. from riding with elites because of the
limited number of Jr-only events on the domestic calendar. At this point,
we would prefer to allow Jrs. to ride with older riders so they may gain
valuable racing experience, while still respecting the gear restrictions
recommended by the International Cycling Union. I hope you agree this is an
acceptable compromise.

All the best,

Steve Johnson

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Murray"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 6:03 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Juniors-If you race out of state read this

> USAC has had this rule come and go in various versions over many years
> now,
> including rules that mandated gears that could not really even be done
> with
> modern gear systems without use of a machine shop. I could almost see
> applicability for track or other fixed gear racing but for road racing the
> idea is just plan dumb. To my knowledge no one has brought this idea
> before
> OBRA and I hope it stays that way.
>
> Mike Murray
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
> Behalf Of David Auker
> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 23:21 PM
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Juniors-If you race out of state read this
>
>
> Ah, sorry, I was wrong when I said:
>> Anyway, shouldn't the following say:
>>
>> "If the crank arms complete more than a full revolution in this
>> distance, the bike fails." ??
>>
>> instead of:
>>
>>> The bike is rolled backwards straight towards the other mark until
>>> the crank arms have completed a full revolution. If the crank arms do
>>> not
> complete a full revolution in this distance, the bike fails.
>>>
> :-[
>
> I think it's good (and interesting) OBRA doesn't have the gear
> restrictions. Has there ever been a push for this? Has USA Cycling had
> this all along? I remember it a long time ago, but this seems to be
> worded as a "new" rule.?
>
> David
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Dave Palmer

Mike and David,

The gear limits themselves aren't a new rule, they've been around for many
years. It's been a subject for debate for just as long, with good arguments
on both sides.
What is new, is that a junior must now adhere to the limits in any
race, not just in a junior race. If the limits are actually in effect to
reduce injury, and promote a good pedaling technique, then it was "plan
dumb" (sorry Mike), to allow the Juniors to race without the limits when
competing in Senior events. The new rule is in fact less hypocritical than
the policy of no limit when racing in a Senior event. As far as road
equipment goes, Shimano and Campy still make 52 tooth rings and junior
cassettes starting with a 14 tooth cog, so meeting the 7.93 meter
requirement isn't difficult at all. If anyone says "My kid would have won
that race if he would have had a bigger gear", then maybe they're the ones
pushing a little too hard. I don't like USAC,
and I'm sure glad we're not part of it, but I did attach an excerpt of a
letter from their CEO Steve Johnson to a concerned parent in New England
regarding the new rule.

Good night,

Dave Palmer

The concept of "Jr. gears" was not developed in the US, but is a rule of the
International Cycling Union (UCI). While "experts" may argue the logic of
the rule, you cannot argue the equalizing effect that it has on riders at
different stages of development. Because cycling is an international sport
and we must compete on the same playing field as any other country, we have
been moving steadily in the direction of harmonizing our rules with those of
the UCI. Having been involved in this process, I can tell you we heard
similar concerns about "damaging the sport" when we implemented the gear
restrictions for juniors in the first place. However, since that time, the
number of licensed Jrs. has more than doubled.

I can assure you that USA Cycling takes these kinds of decisions very
seriously and solicits input from multiple sources prior to moving forward.
Toward that end, this topic was a point of discussion at the "Town Hall"
meeting at this year´s Junior National Road Championships; and the general
consensus of the coaches and parents present at the meeting was that
restricting gearing in all races for Jrs. was a good idea.

You may also be surprised to know that, in addition to limiting Jr. gearing,
many countries will not allow Jrs. to ride with elite (19 and over) athletes
and limit the number of events that Jrs. are allowed to ride each year. We
have not moved to prevent Jrs. from riding with elites because of the
limited number of Jr-only events on the domestic calendar. At this point,
we would prefer to allow Jrs. to ride with older riders so they may gain
valuable racing experience, while still respecting the gear restrictions
recommended by the International Cycling Union. I hope you agree this is an
acceptable compromise.

All the best,

Steve Johnson

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Murray"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 6:03 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Juniors-If you race out of state read this

> USAC has had this rule come and go in various versions over many years
> now,
> including rules that mandated gears that could not really even be done
> with
> modern gear systems without use of a machine shop. I could almost see
> applicability for track or other fixed gear racing but for road racing the
> idea is just plan dumb. To my knowledge no one has brought this idea
> before
> OBRA and I hope it stays that way.
>
> Mike Murray
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
> Behalf Of David Auker
> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 23:21 PM
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Juniors-If you race out of state read this
>
>
> Ah, sorry, I was wrong when I said:
>> Anyway, shouldn't the following say:
>>
>> "If the crank arms complete more than a full revolution in this
>> distance, the bike fails." ??
>>
>> instead of:
>>
>>> The bike is rolled backwards straight towards the other mark until
>>> the crank arms have completed a full revolution. If the crank arms do
>>> not
> complete a full revolution in this distance, the bike fails.
>>>
> :-[
>
> I think it's good (and interesting) OBRA doesn't have the gear
> restrictions. Has there ever been a push for this? Has USA Cycling had
> this all along? I remember it a long time ago, but this seems to be
> worded as a "new" rule.?
>
> David
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Chad Sperry

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Maybe we should not allow any juniors to ride trials or race BMX. That =

is a much great risk to there safety and well being than incorrect =

gearing. Just a thought.



Chad



PS. As a junior I raced triathlons and mashed the big gears all the =

time. I will tell you I recieved a lot more injuries while running than =

training on the bike. Maybe someone should talk to the running comunity =

also.



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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Maybe we should not allow any juniors =

to ride=20

trials or race BMX.  That is a much great risk to there safety and =

well=20

being than incorrect gearing.  Just a thought.</FONT></DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Chad</FONT></DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>PS.  As a junior I raced =

triathlons and mashed=20

the big gears all the time. I will tell you I recieved a lot more =

injuries=20

while running than training on the bike.  Maybe someone should talk =

to the=20

running comunity also.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>



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