eri-@fusium.com

I very much respect Mark's view here. He's shed new light on the issue for

me. Perhaps a better thing to do would be to assemble an FAQ for our OBRA

community, containing things such as procedure for reporting harassment,

accidents, etc. to police.



I think this would help us as a whole deal with these issues more

consistently, and through the proper channels to boot.



?___

?? Erik Voldengen??? 2037 NW Lovejoy?????? 503-226-7099

?? Fusium, Inc.????? Portland, OR 97209??? www.fusium.com





________________________________________

From: markjgi-@yahoo.com [mailto:markjgi-@yahoo.com]

Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 10:49 AM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Road rage list



two separate responses

1. Without specific comments on Craigs wife, who I do not know, and have no

desire to disparage. ?the 90% number does not seem accurate to me. I

represent cyclists who are hit by automobiles, and many insurance adjusters

are not trying to fairly resolve claims, but have a bias in favor of the

insurance company (sometimes even at the expense of their insured who they

should eb trying to proctect). I often see insurance adjusters relying on

one half of the story, which forces me to file a lawsuit and win.

The insurance industry is a huge unregulated racket.

That said, I agree most bicyclists do not follow the rules of the road 100%,

but I would say that they follow the rules of the road as well as motor

vehicle driver do.

Who drove to work this a.m. and didn't speed even once?

?

and I fully agree with Craig that we need to be better than them, and lead

by example when on a bicycle. There are a lot of people on bicycles who ride

like crap.

?

2. I think the data base is a huge waste of time. I think as i said at the

begining of this thread that filing a police report is the way to go. It

generates the data points, creates a reviewable system, and does give you

the chance to go afetr the adverse driver, and also gives the adverse driver

the opportunity to respond.

?

Mark Ginsberg

?



Craig Austin <aust-@exponent.com> wrote:

"I don't know. If the driver has the opportunity to enter a reply, it could

get outa hand couldn't it?

It should be for just the facts."



That's a very telling statement. And we know that only the cyclist has "the

facts." No reason to let the accused have any say in his defense.



This has been an interesting thread to watch. There are legitimate concerns

over aggressive drivers, and we've all been frightened, threatened, or worse

while riding our bikes. But what I haven't seen yet is any balance in this

debate. Nowhere have I seen anyone say that drivers might be more friendly

toward cyclists if we obeyed traffic laws ourselves. Nearly every one of us

runs stop signs, red lights, rides on sidewalks, and generally treats the

open road like a bike path. Our bikes lack reflectors or lights because they

aren't cool or weigh too much. If I offend the 1% of you who always obey all

traffic laws on your bikes, I apologize.



My wife was an insurance claims adjuster for over a dozen years, handling

bodily injury claims. As her husband and kids ride very often, she's also

quite concerned with cycling safety and always gives the cyclist the benefit

of the doubt when a car is involved. Yet in her experience, in over 90

percent of the auto/bike accidents that involved a police investigation, the

cyclist was at fault. Sure, many involved kids dashing into the street, but

many also involved commuters riding between two lanes of traffic downtown,

failure to signal, and especially, failure to stop or even slow down at red

lights and stop signs. I know, I know; our failure to yield doesn't usually

cause potentially fatal injury, whereas the driver's inattention or bad

driving usually does. That doesn't make our actions okay.



Where's the website for drivers to report this behaviour by

Mark J. Ginsberg

Attorney At Law

1001 SW 5th Ave., Ste. 1900

Portland, OR 97204

(503) 542-3000

Fax (503) 295-3720

markjgi-@yahoo.com

www.bikesafetylaw.com

__________________________________________________

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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around

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markjgi-@yahoo.com

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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii



two separate responses

1. Without specific comments on Craigs wife, who I do not know, and have no desire to disparage. the 90% number does not seem accurate to me. I represent cyclists who are hit by automobiles, and many insurance adjusters are not trying to fairly resolve claims, but have a bias in favor of the insurance company (sometimes even at the expense of their insured who they should eb trying to proctect). I often see insurance adjusters relying on one half of the story, which forces me to file a lawsuit and win.

The insurance industry is a huge unregulated racket.

That said, I agree most bicyclists do not follow the rules of the road 100%, but I would say that they follow the rules of the road as well as motor vehicle driver do.

Who drove to work this a.m. and didn't speed even once?



and I fully agree with Craig that we need to be better than them, and lead by example when on a bicycle. There are a lot of people on bicycles who ride like crap.



2. I think the data base is a huge waste of time. I think as i said at the begining of this thread that filing a police report is the way to go. It generates the data points, creates a reviewable system, and does give you the chance to go afetr the adverse driver, and also gives the adverse driver the opportunity to respond.



Mark Ginsberg





Craig Austin <aust-@exponent.com> wrote:

"I don't know. If the driver has the opportunity to enter a reply, it could

get outa hand couldn't it?

It should be for just the facts."



That's a very telling statement. And we know that only the cyclist has "the

facts." No reason to let the accused have any say in his defense.



This has been an interesting thread to watch. There are legitimate concerns

over aggressive drivers, and we've all been frightened, threatened, or worse

while riding our bikes. But what I haven't seen yet is any balance in this

debate. Nowhere have I seen anyone say that drivers might be more friendly

toward cyclists if we obeyed traffic laws ourselves. Nearly every one of us

runs stop signs, red lights, rides on sidewalks, and generally treats the

open road like a bike path. Our bikes lack reflectors or lights because they

aren't cool or weigh too much. If I offend the 1% of you who always obey all

traffic laws on your bikes, I apologize.



My wife was an insurance claims adjuster for over a dozen years, handling

bodily injury claims. As her husband and kids ride very often, she's also

quite concerned with cycling safety and always gives the cyclist the benefit

of the doubt when a car is involved. Yet in her experience, in over 90

percent of the auto/bike accidents that involved a police investigation, the

cyclist was at fault. Sure, many involved kids dashing into the street, but

many also involved commuters riding between two lanes of traffic downtown,

failure to signal, and especially, failure to stop or even slow down at red

lights and stop signs. I know, I know; our failure to yield doesn't usually

cause potentially fatal injury, whereas the driver's inattention or bad

driving usually does. That doesn't make our actions okay.



Where's the website for drivers to report this behaviour by cyclists? Of

course, we would have no ability to respond and defend ourselves, because it

would be a DRIVER's site only.



Just my opinion.

Craig Austin



-----Original Message-----

From: Cp53-@aol.com [mailto:Cp53-@aol.com]

Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 2:07 PM

To: Steve-@clark.wa.gov; ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: george.-@pacificorp.comRE: [OBRA Chat] Road rage list





I don't know. If the driver has the opportunity to enter a reply, it could

get outa hand couldn't it?

It should be for just the facts.



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com







Mark J. GinsbergAttorney At Law1001 SW 5th Ave., Ste. 1900Portland, OR 97204(503) 542-3000Fax (503) 295-3720 markjgi-@yahoo.comwww.bikesafetylaw.com











__________________________________________________

Do You Yahoo!?

Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around

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--0-295545461-1096652949=:75446

Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii



<DIV>two separate responses</DIV>

<DIV>1. Without specific comments on Craigs wife, who I do not know, and have no desire to disparage.  the 90% number does not seem accurate to me. I represent cyclists who are hit by automobiles, and many insurance adjusters are not trying to fairly resolve claims, but have a bias in favor of the insurance company (sometimes even at the expense of their insured who they should eb trying to proctect). I often see insurance adjusters relying on one half of the story, which forces me to file a lawsuit and win.<BR>The insurance industry is a huge unregulated racket.</DIV>

<DIV>That said, I agree most bicyclists do not follow the rules of the road 100%, but I would say that they follow the rules of the road as well as motor vehicle driver do.</DIV>

<DIV>Who drove to work this a.m. and didn't speed even once?</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>and I fully agree with Craig that we need to be better than them, and lead by example when on a bicycle. There are a lot of people on bicycles who ride like crap.</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>2. I think the data base is a huge waste of time. I think as i said at the begining of this thread that filing a police report is the way to go. It generates the data points, creates a reviewable system, and does give you the chance to go afetr the adverse driver, and also gives the adverse driver the opportunity to respond.</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>Mark Ginsberg</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV><BR><B><I>Craig Austin <aust-@exponent.com></I></B> wrote:</DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">"I don't know. If the driver has the opportunity to enter a reply, it could<BR>get outa hand couldn't it?<BR>It should be for just the facts."<BR><BR>That's a very telling statement. And we know that only the cyclist has "the<BR>facts." No reason to let the accused have any say in his defense.<BR><BR>This has been an interesting thread to watch. There are legitimate concerns<BR>over aggressive drivers, and we've all been frightened, threatened, or worse<BR>while riding our bikes. But what I haven't seen yet is any balance in this<BR>debate. Nowhere have I seen anyone say that drivers might be more friendly<BR>toward cyclists if we obeyed traffic laws ourselves. Nearly every one of us<BR>runs stop signs, red lights, rides on sidewalks, and generally treats the<BR>open road like a bike path. Our bikes lack reflectors or lights because they<BR>aren't cool or weigh too much. If I offend

the 1% of you who always obey all<BR>traffic laws on your bikes, I apologize. <BR><BR>My wife was an insurance claims adjuster for over a dozen years, handling<BR>bodily injury claims. As her husband and kids ride very often, she's also<BR>quite concerned with cycling safety and always gives the cyclist the benefit<BR>of the doubt when a car is involved. Yet in her experience, in over 90<BR>percent of the auto/bike accidents that involved a police investigation, the<BR>cyclist was at fault. Sure, many involved kids dashing into the street, but<BR>many also involved commuters riding between two lanes of traffic downtown,<BR>failure to signal, and especially, failure to stop or even slow down at red<BR>lights and stop signs. I know, I know; our failure to yield doesn't usually<BR>cause potentially fatal injury, whereas the driver's inattention or bad<BR>driving usually does. That doesn't make our actions okay. <BR><BR>Where's the website for drivers to report this behaviour by

<DIV>

<DIV>

<DIV>

<DIV>

<ADDRESS>Mark J. Ginsberg</ADDRESS>

<ADDRESS>Attorney At Law</ADDRESS>

<ADDRESS>1001 SW 5th Ave., Ste. 1900</ADDRESS>

<ADDRESS>Portland, OR 97204</ADDRESS>

<ADDRESS>(503) 542-3000</ADDRESS>

<ADDRESS>Fax (503) 295-3720 </ADDRESS>

<ADDRESS><A href="mailto:markjgi-@yahoo.com">markjgi-@yahoo.com</A></ADDRESS>

<ADDRESS><A href="http://www.bikesafetylaw.com">www.bikesafetylaw.com</A> </ADDRESS></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV><p>__________________________________________________<br>Do You Yahoo!?<br>Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around <br>http://mail.yahoo.com

--0-295545461-1096652949=:75446--

Schreck, George

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A person on the list can always claim libel if the information is

inaccurate. The problem will be proving that the information is

accurate as it will be the word of the driver against the bicyclist.

the person who made the posting and anyone who exercises any editorial

discretion can be liable. the good news is that the drivers would tend

to not access the site or know it exists. There should be the

opportunity for rebuttal, however. This is not my specialty, and I

would suggest that you consult someone with some expertise in the area.



________________________________



From: Dan Feiner [mailto:da-@danfeiner.com]

Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 8:22 AM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Road rage list





Here's one for the civil lawyers in the group: Does anyone have any

concerns about libel or slander liability? If whatever entity creates

the list exercises any type of editorial control over what is posted,

would it share in the liability, if any? Would the accused drivers have

the opportunity to post responses? My memory is that the liklihood of

liability increases as editorial control does and decreases when an open

forum is created. Consultation with a communications lawyer might be

worth the time and expense if this concept moves towards reality. Dan

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com



------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>

<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=705223015-01102004><FONT face=Arial

color=#0000ff size=2>A person on the list can always claim libel if the

information is inaccurate.  The problem will be proving that the

information is accurate as it will be the word of the driver against the

bicyclist.  the person who made the posting and anyone who exercises any

editorial discretion can be liable.  the good news is that the drivers

would tend to not access the site or know it exists.  There should be the

opportunity for  rebuttal, however.  This is not my specialty, and I

would suggest that you consult someone with some expertise in the

area.</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>

<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>

<HR tabIndex=-1>

<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> Dan Feiner [mailto:da-@danfeiner.com]

<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, October 01, 2004 8:22 AM<BR><B>To:</B>

ob-@topica.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> [OBRA Chat] Road rage

list<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Here's one for the civil lawyers in the

group:  Does anyone have any concerns about libel or slander

liability?  If whatever entity creates the list exercises any type of

editorial control over what is posted, would it share in the liability, if

any?  Would the accused drivers have the opportunity to post

responses?  My memory is that the liklihood of liability increases as

editorial control does and decreases when an open forum is created. 

Consultation with a communications lawyer might be worth the time and expense if

this concept moves towards reality.  Dan</FONT></DIV><PRE>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com</PRE></BODY></HTML>



<P>------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>

<br>

This email is confidential and may be legally privileged.<br>

<br>

It is intended solely for the addressee. Access to this email by anyone else, unless expressly approved by the sender or an authorized addressee, is unauthorized.<br>

<br>

If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or any action omitted or taken in reliance on it, is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you believe that you have received this email in error, please contact the sender, delete this e-mail and destroy all copies.<br>

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Dan Feiner

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Here's one for the civil lawyers in the group: Does anyone have any concerns about libel or slander liability? If whatever entity creates the list exercises any type of editorial control over what is posted, would it share in the liability, if any? Would the accused drivers have the opportunity to post responses? My memory is that the liklihood of liability increases as editorial control does and decreases when an open forum is created. Consultation with a communications lawyer might be worth the time and expense if this concept moves towards reality. Dan

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">

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<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">

<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2180" name=GENERATOR>

<STYLE></STYLE>

</HEAD>

<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Here's one for the civil lawyers in the

group:  Does anyone have any concerns about libel or slander

liability?  If whatever entity creates the list exercises any type of

editorial control over what is posted, would it share in the liability, if

any?  Would the accused drivers have the opportunity to post

responses?  My memory is that the liklihood of liability increases as

editorial control does and decreases when an open forum is created. 

Consultation with a communications lawyer might be worth the time and expense if

this concept moves towards reality.  Dan</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>



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