anyone used wobblenaught ONLINE?

Evan Plews

2004-12-17



I was fit by Tom Coleman himself in Idaho in June. I had a weak position

when I went and had heard from my coach that the WN system was the best

thing going. I believe I learned a lot from the experience, but the

bottom line is that I quit using the WN fit in October because I saw no

improvement in power or endurance. In fact, I was horribly uncomfortable

most of the time.



I worked in bicycle retail for 7 years and my honest opinion of all

fitting systems has been that they were a sales gimmick. The WN system

is based on some physiology and common sense but it has flaws. I do not

know Mike or John personally, but I would imagine that they have

discovered WNs limitations. Hopefully they have the knowledge and skill

to overcome them!



Let me put a few myths to rest:



WN web self fit is not worth it. If you think you need fitted, you

probably need someone to help you.

WN claims "laser precision" but the lasers is only used for leveling and

measurement error alone likely means your fit is +/- 5 mm. (Remember

sig/figs from high school?)

WN suggests SOLE footbeds. From experience I stongly suggest custom

orthotics or shoes. I suppose the SOLE footbed is better than the excuse

most cycling shoe companies use for an insole!

WN claims any bike "size" can be made to "fit". This is true if only if

you plan on using it for your trainer. My experience is that effective

TT length coupled with seat tube angle is super critical to fit AND

handling. Most people only have a window of +/- .5" OR +/- .5 degrees.

Be careful here!



My road fit was fairly comfortable and seemed to provide decent power

output. My MTB fit was unrideable. The algorythm must be flawed since

the same measurements were used to derive each fit.



So my advice is this:



If you don't have clue about fitting a bike WN and a LOCAL fitter (like

Mike or John) is a great place to start. Just make sure you they are

willing to continue working with you to "tune" the WN baseline fit to

your specific needs and riding style. If you have have been riding for

awhile successfully then I suggest reading all the books you can,

learning the physiology, watching successful riders, and experimenting

with a powermeter so you get a fit that works for YOU!



I totally respect and credit Tom at WN for trying to develop a better

system. I believe WN is on the right track and may evolve into a real

"solution". Unfortunately, WN is not there yet. I am proof of that...



Good luck to anyone who has read this rant!



Feel free to ask my any specifics off-line, too if you like.



I also like what CB's advice about the Fitstick. This is a great make

sure you keep something that works for you!



EP







JOHN FORBES wrote:

 Yes, it is a measurement based fit. However as Mike and I require and

the web site asks, you must try the fit on a trainer and under

observation of someone who can give you appropriate feedback

The at home fit gives you a fit based upon your measurements and is

often the only option for those who live in an area where no shop offers

a Wobble naught fit. It costs $49.00. Here in the Portland area we have

two trained fitters, myself included, who offer the fit and the

experience that fine tune it. For instance, I ask the rider numerous

questions about riding style and goals. I check how limber they are,

letting them know why that's important.

A fit Mike or I offer takes at least two hours and costs $130 because of

our expertise. We guarantee our fits.

I'd sure hate riding without strong hamstrings. I could go back to my

neophyte years and just pedal with my quads thus sacrificing 70% or so

of my power stroke.

The web site is huge and there are areas that need revision but the vast

majority is informative and positive. Check it out, Wobblenaught.com

Thanks,

   

John Forbes

2126 NE 12th Ave.

Portland, OR 97212

503-331-6658

   ----- Original Message -----

   From:

   Gilbert.-@providence.org<mailto:Gilbert.-@providence.org>

   To: ob-@topica.com<mailto:ob-@topica.com>

   Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 10:34 AM

   Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] anyone used wobblenaught ONLINE?









   -----Original Message-----

   From: Ormerod, Gilbert

   Sent: Fri 12/17/2004 10:32 AM

   To: joswig-@earthlink.net<mailto:joswig-@earthlink.net>

   Cc:

   Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] anyone used wobblenaught ONLINE?





   Not to rain on anybody's parade, but I have a few concerns about the

   online site. The information, while voluminous, isn't all that accurate

   or applicable.



   For example:



   "The average adult walks at a cadence of approx. 90 to 120 steps per

   minute. This holds true for your pedal stroke! Changes in this smooth,

   coordinated pattern markedly reduce efficiency and greatly increase the

   energy cost. With advancing age, fatigue, the number of steps per minute

   decreases. "



   Grab a watch and go for a walk. You'll see that the average cadence

   while walking is 50 or less. What they are talking about is foot

   strikes per minute, which doesn't equate to cadence on a bike which

   measures, essentially, what only one foot is doing per minute, not both

   feet.



   Also....



   "Declaration (sic)



   * Knee: The hamstring muscles contract to slow down the swing just prior

   to heel strike so that the heel can strike the ground quietly in a

   controlled motion. If the hamstrings are weak, heel strike may be

   excessively harsh, causing thickening of the heel pad, and the knee may

   hyper extend. "



   This apparently is a cut and paste from something describing walking or

   running. Why include information on heel strike when discussing bike

   fit? It's a non-issue! If your heel is striking something while

   pedaling you need more help than a simple bike fit.



   What they are offering on the web site is just another STATIC bike fit.

   Any static fit can only be considered a starting point, because if you

   line up eight cyclists with the exact same body measurements, you will

   very likely have eight different optimal bike fits. This will primarily

   be due to differences in flexibility and strength, though

   neuro-physiologic factors will also play a role.



   Start with a static fit, but you still will need to do a good deal of

   tweaking to get things just right. Having someone like Mike or John

   help with that would hopefully take care of most of the fine tuning, but

   you're not going to get that kind of assistance through any online fit.



   Gil Ormerod



   Providence Sports Therapy / Cycle Analysis Sport Lab











   DISCLAIMER:

   This message is intended for the sole use of the addressee, and may

   contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from

   disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the addressee you are

   hereby notified that you may not use, copy, disclose, or distribute to

   anyone the message or any information contained in the message. If you

   have received this message in error, please immediately advise the

   sender by reply email and delete this message.



   To respond to the whole group send to

   ob-@topica.com<mailto:ob-@topica.com>.

   To respond to the list manager send to

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JOHN FORBES

2004-12-17



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Yes, it is a measurement based fit. However as Mike and I require and the web site asks, you must try the fit on a trainer and under observation of someone who can give you appropriate feedback

The at home fit gives you a fit based upon your measurements and is often the only option for those who live in an area where no shop offers a Wobble naught fit. It costs $49.00. Here in the Portland area we have two trained fitters, myself included, who offer the fit and the experience that fine tune it. For instance, I ask the rider numerous questions about riding style and goals. I check how limber they are, letting them know why that's important.

A fit Mike or I offer takes at least two hours and costs $130 because of our expertise. We guarantee our fits.

I'd sure hate riding without strong hamstrings. I could go back to my neophyte years and just pedal with my quads thus sacrificing 70% or so of my power stroke.

The web site is huge and there are areas that need revision but the vast majority is informative and positive. Check it out, Wobblenaught.com

Thanks,



John Forbes

2126 NE 12th Ave.

Portland, OR 97212

503-331-6658

----- Original Message -----

From: Gilbert.-@providence.org<mailto:Gilbert.-@providence.org>

To: ob-@topica.com<mailto:ob-@topica.com>

Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 10:34 AM

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] anyone used wobblenaught ONLINE?









-----Original Message-----

From: Ormerod, Gilbert

Sent: Fri 12/17/2004 10:32 AM

To: joswig-@earthlink.net<mailto:joswig-@earthlink.net>

Cc:

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] anyone used wobblenaught ONLINE?





Not to rain on anybody's parade, but I have a few concerns about the online site. The information, while voluminous, isn't all that accurate or applicable.



For example:



"The average adult walks at a cadence of approx. 90 to 120 steps per minute. This holds true for your pedal stroke! Changes in this smooth, coordinated pattern markedly reduce efficiency and greatly increase the energy cost. With advancing age, fatigue, the number of steps per minute decreases. "



Grab a watch and go for a walk. You'll see that the average cadence while walking is 50 or less. What they are talking about is foot strikes per minute, which doesn't equate to cadence on a bike which measures, essentially, what only one foot is doing per minute, not both feet.



Also....



"Declaration (sic)



* Knee: The hamstring muscles contract to slow down the swing just prior to heel strike so that the heel can strike the ground quietly in a controlled motion. If the hamstrings are weak, heel strike may be excessively harsh, causing thickening of the heel pad, and the knee may hyper extend. "



This apparently is a cut and paste from something describing walking or running. Why include information on heel strike when discussing bike fit? It's a non-issue! If your heel is striking something while pedaling you need more help than a simple bike fit.



What they are offering on the web site is just another STATIC bike fit. Any static fit can only be considered a starting point, because if you line up eight cyclists with the exact same body measurements, you will very likely have eight different optimal bike fits. This will primarily be due to differences in flexibility and strength, though neuro-physiologic factors will also play a role.



Start with a static fit, but you still will need to do a good deal of tweaking to get things just right. Having someone like Mike or John help with that would hopefully take care of most of the fine tuning, but you're not going to get that kind of assistance through any online fit.



Gil Ormerod



Providence Sports Therapy / Cycle Analysis Sport Lab











DISCLAIMER:

This message is intended for the sole use of the addressee, and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the addressee you are hereby notified that you may not use, copy, disclose, or distribute to anyone the message or any information contained in the message. If you have received this message in error, please immediately advise the sender by reply email and delete this message.



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com<mailto:ob-@topica.com>.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org<mailto:cmur-@obra.org>

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com<mailto:obra-uns-@topica.com>





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<DIV>

<DIV>Yes, it is a measurement based fit. However as Mike and I require and the

web site asks, you must try the fit on a trainer and under observation of

someone who can give you appropriate feedback</DIV>

<DIV>The at home fit gives you a fit based upon your measurements and is often

the only option for those who live in an area where no shop offers a Wobble

naught fit. It costs $49.00. Here in the Portland area we have two trained

fitters, myself included, who offer the fit and the experience that fine tune

it. For instance, I ask the rider numerous questions about riding style and

goals. I check how limber they are, letting them know why that's

important. </DIV>

<DIV>A fit Mike or I offer takes at least two hours and costs $130 because of

our expertise. We guarantee our fits.</DIV>

<DIV>I'd  sure hate riding without strong hamstrings. I could go back to my

neophyte years and just pedal with my quads thus sacrificing 70% or so of my

power stroke. </DIV>

<DIV>The web site is huge and there are areas that need revision but the vast

majority is informative and positive. Check it out, Wobblenaught.com </DIV>

<DIV>Thanks,</DIV>

<DIV>  </DIV>

<DIV>John Forbes<BR>2126 NE 12th Ave. <BR>Portland, OR

97212<BR>503-331-6658</DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE

style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>From:</B> <A

title=mailto:Gilbert.-@providence.org

href="mailto:Gilbert.-@providence.org">Gilbert.Ormerod@providenceorg</A>

</DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=mailto:ob-@topica.com

href="mailto:ob-@topica.com">ob-@topica.com</A> </DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, December 17, 2004 10:34

AM</DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: [OBRA Chat] anyone used

wobblenaught ONLINE?</DIV>

<DIV><BR></DIV><BR><BR>-----Original Message----- <BR>From: Ormerod, Gilbert

<BR>Sent: Fri 12/17/2004 10:32 AM <BR>To: <A

title=mailto:joswig-@earthlink.net

href="mailto:joswig-@earthlink.net">joswig-@earthlink.net</A> <BR>Cc:

<BR>Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] anyone used wobblenaught ONLINE?<BR><BR><BR>Not

to rain on anybody's parade, but I have a few concerns about the online

site.  The information, while voluminous, isn't all that accurate or

applicable.<BR><BR>For example:<BR><BR>"The average adult walks at a cadence

of approx. 90 to 120 steps per minute. This holds true for your pedal stroke!

Changes in this smooth, coordinated pattern markedly reduce efficiency and

greatly increase the energy cost. With advancing age, fatigue, the number of

steps per minute decreases. "<BR><BR>Grab a watch and go for a walk. 

You'll see that the average cadence while walking is 50 or less.  What

they are talking about is foot strikes per minute, which doesn't equate to

cadence on a bike which measures, essentially, what only one foot is doing per

minute, not both feet.<BR><BR>Also....<BR><BR>"Declaration  (sic)

<BR><BR>* Knee: The hamstring muscles contract to slow down the swing just

prior to heel strike so that the heel can strike the ground quietly in a

controlled motion. If the hamstrings are weak, heel strike may be excessively

harsh, causing thickening of the heel pad, and the knee may hyper extend.

"<BR><BR>This apparently is a cut and paste from something describing walking

or running.  Why include information on heel strike when discussing bike

fit?  It's a non-issue!  If your heel is striking something while

pedaling you need more help than a simple bike fit.  <BR><BR>What they

are offering on the web site is just another STATIC bike fit.  Any static

fit can only be considered a starting point, because if you line up eight

cyclists with the exact same body measurements, you will very likely have

eight different optimal bike fits.  This will primarily be due to

differences in flexibility and strength, though neuro-physiologic factors will

also play a role.<BR><BR>Start with a static fit, but you still will need to

do a good deal of tweaking to get things just right.  Having someone like

Mike or John help with that would hopefully take care of most of the fine

tuning, but you're not going to get that kind of assistance through any online

fit.<BR><BR>Gil Ormerod<BR><BR>Providence Sports Therapy / Cycle Analysis

Sport Lab<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>DISCLAIMER:<BR>This message is intended for

the sole use of the addressee, and may contain information that is privileged,

confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not

the addressee you are hereby notified that you may not use, copy, disclose, or

distribute to anyone the message or any information contained in the message.

If you have received this message in error, please immediately advise the

sender by reply email and delete this message.<BR><BR>To respond to the whole

group send to <A title=mailto:ob-@topica.com

href="mailto:ob-@topica.com">ob-@topica.com</A>.<BR>To respond to the list

manager send to <A title=mailto:cmur-@obra.org

href="mailto:cmur-@obra.org">cmur-@obra.org</A><BR>To unsubscribe send to

<A title=mailto:obra-uns-@topica.com



------=_NextPart_000_020B_01C4E426.E5D2E3B0--



Mark Wexler

2004-12-17



Yes - I first tried it on-line and found all the instructions very well

documented. The hardest part is that if you don't have a knowledgable

partner to help you with the measurments...you won't get it right.



I did it on-line about 1 1/2 years ago....then had another person this

last year do a full fit with the same system and laser to make sure all

was in line and correctly measured. Turned out that my original

measurements for the certain areas produced a low saddle height and

setback. My wife helped out, but had no idea what I was doing or how it

related to my position on the bike.



My advice is to spend the money and get it done right. I'm a great fan

of this system, but found that it's better to have someone else do the

measuring.



Mark Wexler



"Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?"





Jeffrey P. Joswig Jones wrote:

 

Has anyone had success with wobblenaught online? It looks a little

complicated but the instructions are detailed.





Jeffrey P. Joswig-Jones





-----Original Message-----

From: Duncan Calver [mailto:duncan-@msn.com]

Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 11:29 AM

To: darik_-@hotmail.com; ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] anyone used wobblenaught?



Darik,

      I got a Wobble-Naught fit done by Mike Manning at Maverick's about 1.5

months ago. I am more than overjoyed with the fit. Previously, I had a



"custom fit" done by a salesperson at a local bike shop, using 'sight'

and a



plumb-bob. This led to me purchasing a custom Litespeed, for an

additional

$350. According to my fit with Mr. Manning, none of the custom options

on

my frame were necessary, and were in fact errors from judging fit "by

sight".

      I now have appreciable increased power output in my pedal stroke, more

comfort on long rides and overall improved efficiency. I wish I had

done

this years ago. I highly recommend getting this fit, as it is the most

scientifically backed process I have come across in the industry. I

would

imagine getting the fit done by Mr. Manning would be far more accurate

than

trying to do the process yourself. It's fairly complicated, and best

left

to trained professionals.



Good luck,

Duncan Calver, Team Oregon



 From: Darik Russell <darik_-@hotmail.com>

Reply-To: darik_-@hotmail.com

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: [OBRA Chat] anyone used wobblenaught?

Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 19:10:45 +0000



has anyone used the wobblenaught self fit system? is it any help?



How about local fits in portland? I got a new bike this fall, and can't



seem to get the fit right



darik russell



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com







Mark Wexler

M&M Business Services

503.358.8308



Gilbert.-@providence.org

2004-12-17







-----Original Message-----

From: Ormerod, Gilbert

Sent: Fri 12/17/2004 10:32 AM

To: joswig-@earthlink.net

Cc:

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] anyone used wobblenaught ONLINE?





Not to rain on anybody's parade, but I have a few concerns about the online site. The information, while voluminous, isn't all that accurate or applicable.



For example:



"The average adult walks at a cadence of approx. 90 to 120 steps per minute. This holds true for your pedal stroke! Changes in this smooth, coordinated pattern markedly reduce efficiency and greatly increase the energy cost. With advancing age, fatigue, the number of steps per minute decreases. "



Grab a watch and go for a walk. You'll see that the average cadence while walking is 50 or less. What they are talking about is foot strikes per minute, which doesn't equate to cadence on a bike which measures, essentially, what only one foot is doing per minute, not both feet.



Also....



"Declaration (sic)



* Knee: The hamstring muscles contract to slow down the swing just prior to heel strike so that the heel can strike the ground quietly in a controlled motion. If the hamstrings are weak, heel strike may be excessively harsh, causing thickening of the heel pad, and the knee may hyper extend. "



This apparently is a cut and paste from something describing walking or running. Why include information on heel strike when discussing bike fit? It's a non-issue! If your heel is striking something while pedaling you need more help than a simple bike fit.



What they are offering on the web site is just another STATIC bike fit. Any static fit can only be considered a starting point, because if you line up eight cyclists with the exact same body measurements, you will very likely have eight different optimal bike fits. This will primarily be due to differences in flexibility and strength, though neuro-physiologic factors will also play a role.



Start with a static fit, but you still will need to do a good deal of tweaking to get things just right. Having someone like Mike or John help with that would hopefully take care of most of the fine tuning, but you're not going to get that kind of assistance through any online fit.



Gil Ormerod



Providence Sports Therapy / Cycle Analysis Sport Lab











DISCLAIMER:

This message is intended for the sole use of the addressee, and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the addressee you are hereby notified that you may not use, copy, disclose, or distribute to anyone the message or any information contained in the message. If you have received this message in error, please immediately advise the sender by reply email and delete this message.



Jeffrey P. Joswig Jones

2004-12-17



Has anyone had success with wobblenaught online? It looks a little

complicated but the instructions are detailed.





Jeffrey P. Joswig-Jones





-----Original Message-----

From: Duncan Calver [mailto:duncan-@msn.com]

Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 11:29 AM

To: darik_-@hotmail.com; ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] anyone used wobblenaught?



Darik,

     I got a Wobble-Naught fit done by Mike Manning at Maverick's about 1.5

months ago. I am more than overjoyed with the fit. Previously, I had a

"custom fit" done by a salesperson at a local bike shop, using 'sight' and a



plumb-bob. This led to me purchasing a custom Litespeed, for an additional

$350. According to my fit with Mr. Manning, none of the custom options on

my frame were necessary, and were in fact errors from judging fit "by

sight".

     I now have appreciable increased power output in my pedal stroke, more

comfort on long rides and overall improved efficiency. I wish I had done

this years ago. I highly recommend getting this fit, as it is the most

scientifically backed process I have come across in the industry. I would

imagine getting the fit done by Mr. Manning would be far more accurate than

trying to do the process yourself. It's fairly complicated, and best left

to trained professionals.



Good luck,

Duncan Calver, Team Oregon



 From: Darik Russell <darik_-@hotmail.com>

Reply-To: darik_-@hotmail.com

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: [OBRA Chat] anyone used wobblenaught?

Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 19:10:45 +0000



has anyone used the wobblenaught self fit system? is it any help?



How about local fits in portland? I got a new bike this fall, and can't

seem to get the fit right



darik russell



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com