OBRA: OBRA Chat: Cherry Pie

Cherry Pie - input?

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J Bravard

2005-02-22

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Awesome...I want to be on the list of those allowed to sprint!

John

Neil Green <neilgr-@hotmail.com> wrote:

From what I understand, there were a few wrecks in the CAT 3/4 race. I

agree with the statements below. If you are not truly a sprinter, you

shouldn't be contesting the sprint. Clear out and let the fearless ones

fight it out. If you feel strong and want to have a go, why not go for

a solo win? Just my two cents.

Neil

stevea-@comcast.net wrote:

Also IMHO, moving the finish line to a hill top finish for all races

would favor the smaller riders in all races and that would not be right.

Additionally, How would you do that at races like POC or OSU road race

where the entire race is pancake flat.

The real problem, as you so appropriately noted, is that nobody took the

initiative to push the pace and stretch things out.

Translation, everybody was playing the sprinters game.

I myself have allowed myself to get caught in this thinking trap when

clearly it's to my benefit to have the pace pushed even if I have to do

it myself. Reason, I don't sprint like the real sprinters and I'm going

to have a better finish just by keeping the pace high in the last 1k.

Besides, there are other tricks you can play to get a higher finish even

if you have to resort to pushing the pace yourself. Just ask Dave Ripp

who I have seen push the heck out of the pace at PIR for a good half

last lap and still get a top ten for himself. No, he didn't win, but he

did kick up the jam for his team while still preserving a respectable

finish for himself.

-----Original Message-----

From: Dave Whitlinger [mailto:david.l.w-@intel.com]

Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 8:08 AM

To: cmur-@obra.org; ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Cherry Pie - input?

IMHO..the CAT 3/4 field was too big. After the final hill, the lead

peleton was still 25 riders all riding shoulder to shoulder and wheel to

wheel without anyone taking the initiative to push the speed and string

it out. Things didn't open up until 350m out with the crash being the

outcome. Same as PIR with about half the road width. Again, IMHO, I

would suggest breaking the field into a CAT 4 and a CAT 3 field with

limits of 75 riders and/or moving the finish line to the hill top and

add another partial lap. A hill top finish would be safer for all.

A better inter-race communication system could be developed, but making

the race safer could also be something to look at. This would avoid the

need to move the finish line - which I would expect to be a non-trivial

task in the middle of a race.

Dave

_____

From: Candi Murray [mailto:cmur-@obra.org]

Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 7:38 AM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Cherry Pie - input?

So there was a crash in the very large Cat 3 & 4 field about 300 meters

from the finish. Four riders went down, two were injured. The

ambulance and subsequent went to help. There were 3 fields still behind

them finishing.

1st group behind Masters 45+ broken into 2 smalll fields from 2-10

riders. They were neutralized and all finished with the same place of

the that group. Two 1st places, 6 3rd places etc.

We heard that the next group was the women. The finish line

communicated to that field that the finish would be quickly moved to the

1K mark. The field was informed but obviously not the riders otb.

There finish was not a problem either.

However the Cat 1,2,3 passed the women somewhere along the last 4 miles

and came in aiming for the real finish. Some of the riders heard that

they no longer had the full road, but it doesnot seem that they got the

word on the move. Plus the move was moving 1 judge down to manual pick

as the truck and camera could not get around the riders in the

road/ambulance. The judge was surprised and did not get them picked.

We have film that we were still trying to review at 5 pm. I am not sure

what results that we will come up with.

This is the 2nd time in 12 months that we have had a crash at or very

near the finish with more fields approaching. We need to develop a

system of making sure the riders know what is happening. First and

foremost this is JUST bike racing. When you see ambulances and bodies

in the road realize that your finish will not be the most important

thing on the officials mind.

It was suggested that since informing riders on the road is difficult

that we come up with a paddle or flag system that the official cars hold

up to signify that things need to come to a screeching halt. I am up

for suggestions.

The two riders sustained collarbone/clavicle fractures degrees of

severity. We all wish them a speedy return to the peleton.

Candi Murray

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

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<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>Awesome...I want to be on the list of those allowed to sprint!</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>John Neil Green <neilgr-@hotmail.com> wrote:</DIV>

<DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">

<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">From what I understand, there were a few wrecks in the CAT 3/4 race. I agree with the statements below. If you are not truly a sprinter, you shouldn't be contesting the sprint. Clear out and let the fearless ones fight it out. If you feel strong and want to have a go, why not go for a solo win? Just my two cents. Neil stevea-@comcast.net wrote: > Also IMHO, moving the finish line to a hill top finish for all races > would favor the smaller riders in all races and that would not be right. > Additionally, How would you do that at races like POC or OSU road race > where the entire race is pancake flat. > The real problem, as you so appropriately noted, is that nobody took the > initiative to push the pace and stretch things out. > > Translation, everybody was playing the sprinters game.

 > > I myself have allowed myself to get caught in this thinking trap when > clearly it's to my benefit to have the pace pushed even if I have to do > it myself. Reason, I don't sprint like the real sprinters and I'm going > to have a better finish just by keeping the pace high in the last 1k. > Besides, there are other tricks you can play to get a higher finish even > if you have to resort to pushing the pace yourself. Just ask Dave Ripp > who I have seen push the heck out of the pace at PIR for a good half > last lap and still get a top ten for himself. No, he didn't win, but he > did kick up the jam for his team while still preserving a respectable > finish for himself. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave Whitlinger [mailto:david.l.w-@intel.com] > Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 8:08 AM > To: cmur-@obra.org; ob-@topica.com > Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Cherry

Pie - input? > > > > IMHO..the CAT 3/4 field was too big. After the final hill, the lead > peleton was still 25 riders all riding shoulder to shoulder and wheel to > wheel without anyone taking the initiative to push the speed and string > it out. Things didn't open up until 350m out with the crash being the > outcome. Same as PIR with about half the road width. Again, IMHO, I > would suggest breaking the field into a CAT 4 and a CAT 3 field with > limits of 75 riders and/or moving the finish line to the hill top and > add another partial lap. A hill top finish would be safer for all. > > > > A better inter-race communication system could be developed, but making > the race safer could also be something to look at. This would avoid the > need to move the finish line - which I would expect to be a non-trivial > task in the middle of a race. > > >

 > Dave > > > > > _____ > > > From: Candi Murray [mailto:cmur-@obra.org] > Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 7:38 AM > To: ob-@topica.com > Subject: [OBRA Chat] Cherry Pie - input? > > > > So there was a crash in the very large Cat 3 & 4 field about 300 meters > from the finish. Four riders went down, two were injured. The > ambulance and subsequent went to help. There were 3 fields still behind > them finishing. > > 1st group behind Masters 45+ broken into 2 smalll fields from 2-10 > riders. They were neutralized and all finished with the same place of > the that group. Two 1st places, 6 3rd places etc. > > We heard that the next group was the women. The finish line > communicated to that field that the finish would be quickly moved to the > 1K mark. The field was informed but obviously not the riders

otb. > There finish was not a problem either. > > However the Cat 1,2,3 passed the women somewhere along the last 4 miles > and came in aiming for the real finish. Some of the riders heard that > they no longer had the full road, but it doesnot seem that they got the > word on the move. Plus the move was moving 1 judge down to manual pick > as the truck and camera could not get around the riders in the > road/ambulance. The judge was surprised and did not get them picked. > We have film that we were still trying to review at 5 pm. I am not sure > what results that we will come up with. > > This is the 2nd time in 12 months that we have had a crash at or very > near the finish with more fields approaching. We need to develop a > system of making sure the riders know what is happening. First and > foremost this is JUST bike racing. When you see ambulances and bodies > in the road realize

that your finish will not be the most important > thing on the officials mind. > > It was suggested that since informing riders on the road is difficult > that we come up with a paddle or flag system that the official cars hold > up to signify that things need to come to a screeching halt. I am up > for suggestions. > > > > The two riders sustained collarbone/clavicle fractures degrees of > severity. We all wish them a speedy return to the peleton. > > > > Candi Murray > > > > To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com. > To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org > To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com > > > To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com. > > To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org > > To unsubscribe send to



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hogie-@yahoo.com

2005-02-21

Oh Jens you live down here with me tisk tisk.

I have to reply;-)

There is nothing recent about the number or severity of crashes, they

have been happening in road races all over the world for decades, even

up hill. It may seem like more here but relative to the number of

events and people participating there may actually be fewer pile-ups per

person/event. A crash is a crash and people break bones even in TT's.

I have seen fast big crashes that end in a big pile with only a few

scratches here and there. And I have seen people fall over at 5mph and

break bones. Riding a bike even if you don't race is dangerous. I'll

bet a lot of us are more worried about drivers hitting us while training

than crashing in a race, it's more likely to be fatal or severly

disabling.

And if you want to know about people staying home with out flat

finishes, the most attended single day road races are flat or near flat

and usually double the size of hilly or climbing events and even the

best attended TT's. For example Jack frost had what? 260 or so (the

most I know that have attended a TT and flat) and the Cherry pie had 450

or so. Flat brings out fat and most of us are or think we are fat. So

Flat brings out the numbers.

To add to the power and weight question that would only apply if

time/distance were factored in. I may be able to put out more power at

peak than a lighter guy but only over a very short distance say 50 to

100m or a few seconds, most hill top finishes are preceded by climbing

like Kings Valley. It's over 1k, much longer than I would able to out

power a climber. This could go on forever if you factored in different

peak power vs. sustainable power over time/distance but to sum up hill

top finishes would have to be very short, under 200m, and not preceded

by a climb for sprinters to have a chance (show up). Then what would be

the point, it might as well be flat.

I doesn't matter if anyone agrees or not, attendance is the vote.

Looking at the attendance of races over that last several years the

pattern becomes fairly clear. Well CCX would win, but in the non-winter

months I think we can all figure it out crash risk or not,

flat/flatish/flater road races win. Climbers can have their races they

will just be much less attended....remember "fat";-)

IMH(fat in my head)O

Richard Hogan

Jens Heycke wrote:

hogie-@yahoo.com wrote:

. . .

Changing the finish to a hill top doesn?t

prevent crashes. The 1st year of Kings Valley in the 4/5?s there was a

crash about 100m from the finish and it?s up hill for better than 1k.

I'll bet it wasn't nearly as bad as the numerous

crashes we've seen on flat finishes in recent years.

. . .

Take away the flat finishes and a lot

of us stay home.

I think there are also quite a few, like me,

who will stick to TTs and hillclimbs until we

find road races with uphill finishes. Thanks to

OBRA and all the great promoters in this state

there are lots of TTs for us to do. However, I

would like to do a road race sometime where

I don't feel like my ability to take care of

my children might be at risk.

--Jens Heycke

Joel Wilson

2005-02-21

First off, speedy recovery to those that were unfortunate to go down on

Sunday. Second, thanks to those that work so hard to put these events

on, dealing with the logistics of setting up and running an event, the

unforseen circumstances, and then dealing with all the personalities. I

can't imagine. Thanks for letting us race.

I believe that the original post by Candi was soliciting input for a

system of on-course communication, possibly a contingency plan for when

these situations occur.

Much of the response has been regarding how to avoid the crashes. There

have been some good suggestions and I've got some of my own, but in the

interest of keepint to the original topic, I won't share them here.

Here's what I think would improve communication to the peloton and make

the race safer for when these incidents occur:

1. Use a megaphone for the pre race meeting. For many fields it's

overkill, but one person addressing a 100 rider field requires

amplification.

2. An official driving beside the peloton can only hope to communicate

to the handfull of riders. Again, amplification would help, but it

requires multiple good portable systems and volunteers that aren't

afraid to use them. I think the flag system is an excellent suggestion.

It works for automobile racing and is internationally understood.

Everyone should know what a yellow flag means. It would be easy for

volunteers to learn and easy for the whole peloton to interpret, and it

can be easily reproduced. We can all agree that safety comes first.

That would solve the fist part of the problem, how to make the race safe

while on-course situations are being dealt with.

3. Moving a finish line seems like an extremely unlikely task to pull

off without a well thought out and simple contingency plan that all

parties understand prior to the start. Maybe this would require a

backup finish line crew, a series of contingency finish line markers

(the suggestion to put course markers elevated on poles is excellent)

and a special colored flag to indicate the backup finish line is active.

I don't know how feasible it is to be ready to pick/record the finish

from a secondary location.

This is all secondary. My vote is to develop and implement a flag

system ASAP.

Again, thanks to Candi, Norm and all the other promoters for all the

hard work to make OBRA events happen.

Joel Wilson

Paul's Bicycle Way of Life Racing Team

Mikenl-@aol.com

2005-02-21

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Okay, I agree with the pre-registration, but why limit the newest interest

group to bicycle racing to a 50 rider limit? Yes we did have crashes too in the

cat 5's at Cherry Pie.

"83" cat 5 racers compared to "103" cat 3/4's.

What about a cat 4 only addition?

Leave the 1,2,3's all together.

Big Lak

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<HTML><HTML>Okay, I agree with the pre-registration, but why limit the newest interest group to bicycle racing to a 50 rider limit? Yes we did have crashes too in the cat 5's at Cherry Pie. 

"83" cat 5 racers compared to "103" cat 3/4's. 

What about a cat 4 only addition? 

Leave the 1,2,3's all together. 

 

Big Lak</HTML>

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Jens Heycke

2005-02-21

hogie-@yahoo.com wrote:

. . .

Changing the finish to a hill top doesn?t

prevent crashes. The 1st year of Kings Valley in the 4/5?s there was a

crash about 100m from the finish and it?s up hill for better than 1k.

I'll bet it wasn't nearly as bad as the numerous

crashes we've seen on flat finishes in recent years.

. . .

Take away the flat finishes and a lot

of us stay home.

Glen Gann

2005-02-21

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First of all...thank you for putting on the race.

A simple paddle sounds like the best way to get a race stopped and then let the riders decide if they want to wait it out and then finish or just ride in and call it a day.

Example: Last year's state road race. (The safety of the riders on the ground, should come first.)

The safety of the sport is up to the riders. I've seen as small as a five man break crash at the finish with two lanes, and yes, they were cat 1/2.

We just need to take a deep breath and think about the guys and gals that are around us. Crashes can happen anywhere and on any type of course.

Like Candi said, "we're just racing bikes."

Glen G

----- Original Message -----

From: Candi Murray

To: ob-@topica.com

Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 7:37 AM

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Cherry Pie - input?

So there was a crash in the very large Cat 3 & 4 field about 300 meters from the finish. Four riders went down, two were injured. The ambulance and subsequent went to help. There were 3 fields still behind them finishing.

1st group behind Masters 45+ broken into 2 smalll fields from 2-10 riders. They were neutralized and all finished with the same place of the that group. Two 1st places, 6 3rd places etc.

We heard that the next group was the women. The finish line communicated to that field that the finish would be quickly moved to the 1K mark. The field was informed but obviously not the riders otb. There finish was not a problem either.

However the Cat 1,2,3 passed the women somewhere along the last 4 miles and came in aiming for the real finish. Some of the riders heard that they no longer had the full road, but it doesnot seem that they got the word on the move. Plus the move was moving 1 judge down to manual pick as the truck and camera could not get around the riders in the road/ambulance. The judge was surprised and did not get them picked. We have film that we were still trying to review at 5 pm. I am not sure what results that we will come up with.

This is the 2nd time in 12 months that we have had a crash at or very near the finish with more fields approaching. We need to develop a system of making sure the riders know what is happening. First and foremost this is JUST bike racing. When you see ambulances and bodies in the road realize that your finish will not be the most important thing on the officials mind.

It was suggested that since informing riders on the road is difficult that we come up with a paddle or flag system that the official cars hold up to signify that things need to come to a screeching halt. I am up for suggestions.



The two riders sustained collarbone/clavicle fractures degrees of severity. We all wish them a speedy return to the peleton.



Candi Murray



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

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<DIV>First of all...thank you for putting on the

race.</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>A simple paddle sounds like the best way to get a

race stopped and then let the riders decide if they want to wait

it out and then finish or just ride in and call it a day.</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>Example: Last year's state road race. (The

safety of the riders on the ground, should come first.)</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>The safety of the sport is up to the riders. I've

seen as small as a five man break crash at the finish with two lanes, and yes,

they were cat 1/2.</DIV>

<DIV>We just need to take a deep breath and think about

the guys and gals that are around us. Crashes can happen anywhere and on

any type of course. </DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>Like Candi said, "we're just racing

bikes."</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>Glen G</DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr

style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>

<DIV

style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">From:

<A title=c-@obra.org href="mailto:cmur-@obra.org">Candi Murray</A>

</DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">To: <A title-@topica.com

href="mailto:ob-@topica.com">ob-@topica.com</A> </DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 7:37

AM</DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">Subject: [OBRA Chat] Cherry Pie -

input?</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV class=Section1>

So there was a crash in the very

large Cat 3 & 4 field about 300 meters from the finish. Four riders went down, two were

injured. The ambulance and

subsequent went to help. There

were 3 fields still behind them finishing.<o:p></o:p>

1st group behind

Masters 45+ broken into 2 smalll fields from 2-10

riders. They were neutralized and all finished

with the same place of the that group. Two

1st places, 6 3rd places

etc.<o:p></o:p>

We heard that the next group was

the women. The finish line

communicated to that field that the finish would be quickly moved to the 1K

mark. The field was informed but

obviously not the riders otb.

There finish was not a problem either.<o:p></o:p>

However the Cat 1,2,3 passed the women somewhere along the last 4 miles and

came in aiming for the real finish.

Some of the riders heard that they no longer had the full road, but it

doesnot seem that they got the word on the move.

 Plus the move was moving 1 judge

down to manual pick as the truck and camera could not get around the riders in

the road/ambulance. The judge was

surprised and did not get them picked.

We have film that we were still trying to review at

<st1:time Minute="0" Hour="17">5 pm</st1:time>. I am not sure what results that we

will come up with.<o:p></o:p>

This is the 2nd time in

12 months that we have had a crash at or very near the finish with more fields

approaching. We need to develop a

system of making sure the riders know what is happening. First and foremost this is JUST bike

racing. When

you see ambulances and bodies in the road realize that your finish will not be

the most important thing on the officials mind. <o:p></o:p>

It was suggested that since

informing riders on the road is difficult that we come up with a paddle or

flag system that the official cars hold up to signify that things need to come

to a screeching halt. I am

up for suggestions.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

The two riders sustained collarbone/clavicle fractures degrees of

severity. We all wish them a speedy return to the

peleton.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

Candi

Murray<o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p></DIV><PRE>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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Jens Heycke

2005-02-21

stevea-@comcast.net wrote:

Also IMHO, moving the finish line to a hill top finish for all races

would favor the smaller riders in all races and that would not be right.

I strongly disagree with this. There's no question that smaller

riders do better on extended climbs where power output is

lower -- say 200-350 watts. In sprints, where average power

output is much higher (600-1000), weight doesn't count that

much.

If you don't believe me, run some numbers on

analyticcycling.com. For example, with a 7% grade,

a 190 lb rider who generates 740 watts will easily beat a 150

lb rider who generates 600 watts (9.07 m/s vs 8.98 m/s).

Now keep in mind that power increases more than proportionately

with weight. So, all else held equal, a 190 lb rider

should generate at least 26% more power. To handily win the

uphill finish he only needs 23% more.

-- Jens Heycke

stevea-@comcast.net

2005-02-21

No it doesn't sound stringent. I'm try to put together a crit right now

and let me tell you, the strings of red tape that have to be negotiated

is almost endless at times.

-----Original Message-----

From: Candi Murray [mailto:cmur-@obra.org]

Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 3:57 PM

To: mad-@huttig.com; ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Cherry Pie - input?

Because we cannot monitor the road from 500 meters. How many road races

have you been to that there is line of sight that far, and guaranteed

radio signals.

Many road jurisdictions refuse permission to close the lane, there are

so many other factors involved. Maybe you all should put on an event or

volunteer at an existing one and see. Candi

So if this sounds strident, it has been a long weekend

-----Original Message-----

From: Adams, Mike [mailto:mad-@huttig.com]

Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 3:51 PM

To: thegree-@comcast.net; gmit-@yahoo.com; ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Cherry Pie - input?

Since someone liked my "visible banner" idea. Why not have 5k then 2k,

1k then open it up at 500 meters. the sprinters would wind it up at 2k

and by 1k if you can hold on you might have an opportunity for top 15.

This might not stop the wrecks but it would sure weed out the small guys

that only wish for an uphill finish.

-----Original Message-----

From: The Greenwalts [mailto:thegree-@comcast.net]

Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 3:43 PM

To: gmit-@yahoo.com; ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Cherry Pie - input?

I think the flag signals are an excellent idea!

Although it may be a bit much for those who have a hard time with course

markings such as 1K, 200M and the finish line.

How many times have we been in a race were the car pulls up next to us

and

tries to give instructions to the field? Interpretation, inner-peleton

communication and just plain not listening makes it tough to get the

point

across (sometimes we are riding with deaf racers). If a flag comes out

of

the car that's it. It has a pre determined meaning and that's what we

do. But then again, someone would have to pay attention in the pre race

instructions.

Field size? Don't we want big competitive fields? Don't we want to race

against others?

If not, I'd suggest sticking with TTs.

I also agree that, while not mandatory, crashes happen in bicycle

racing.(

more in the early season).

That's how many figure out where they're comfortable in the last K.

I know I may have a very simplistic view BUT I'm a simple man Ric

----- Original Message -----

From: "galen mittermann" <gmit-@yahoo.com>

To: <ob-@topica.com>

Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 2:04 PM

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Cherry Pie - input?

My own 2 cents:

The crash in the 3/4 happened in a front group of riders that was

what,

25 or so? The rest of the field was split and back. So arguably, the

sprint to the finish was the same as a 25 rider total field would have

been if no-one got gapped. I don't really think a smaller field would

have stopped that kind of accident. Where it would help is for the

rest

of the race, where having a peloton that big strung out in the wind on

one lane leads to a lot of speeding up and slowing down, especially in

the back, where the less experienced might be touching tires or

locking

handlebars.

I don't think there's much that can be done for pack sprint safety

unless the lanes get opened up a lot earlier, like at the 1k, as has

been suggested. It might reduce the urgent crowding at the front as

people would have that little bit extra time to maneuver for

positioning

before the sprinting really starts. Rider behavior, what riders SHOULD

do (as in, people shouldn't go for it if they're not capable,

shouldn't

sprint for 20th, should push the pace earlier, or whatever) simply

isn't

going to change. All we can control is what the rules are and hence

what

people MUST do. Like opening the roads, or splitting categories, or

repositioning the finish. Hopefully, races can be made safer

throughout the course including the finish sprints. Safer courses as

well as proper field sizes for the roads being raced. The wreck on

Bachelor at cascade last year was the most terrifying thing I have

ever witnessed, and I think it can be blamed on poor road conditions.

Galen

Disclaimer:

All opions expressed are my own and only my own, and do not reflect

the

opions or stand of my teammates, my team's sponsors, my employer, my

relatives, my girlfreind, my former college drinking buddies, or

anyone

else with whom I have ever had an association, so gripes are to be

directed at myself and only at myself.

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

Bud Hartley

2005-02-21

</newbie opinion on>

Cherry Pie was my first ever bike race, and I was VERY glad that it was

in a Cat 5 only field. Thanks for doing it! I am entering this sport

late in life and I still weigh a lot more than is needed to ride.

Running with the "big dogs" in the Cat 4 field is not something I'm

looking forward to doing until I'm in better shape, and I hope there are

many more Cat 5 only races.

The turn-out yesterday and the size of the Cat 5 field may be an

indication that there are others like me that will race and happily

finish in the back half of the pack just for the experience and

comraderie that OBRA provides.

Thanks again for having a Cat 5 only field.

</newbie opinion off>

Regards, Bud

--------------------------------------------------------

Candi Murray wrote:

Yes Tom that option is available. But there are so many more

considerations. Is there available staff to run additional lead/follow

and support cars? Is the course long enough to avoid large groups

catching and passing each other? How would prize lists be split?

There should have been a 50 rider cap on the Cat 5 field. This was the

first race that has offered a Cat 5 only field. In years past they have

ridden with the 4's. We had no idea that the response would be so huge.

And no one counted the registration until the riders were lined up.

There is a 100 rider limit on the other fields. We were bumping Cat 3

riders out of the Cat 3/4 field into the Cat 1/2/3. Last year we turned

riders away when Cherry Pie met it's field limits.

I think that what might occur is that more fields will close. Pre

Registration is going to be a must!

Candi

Candi Murray

2005-02-21

Because we cannot monitor the road from 500 meters. How many road races

have you been to that there is line of sight that far, and guaranteed

radio signals.

Many road jurisdictions refuse permission to close the lane, there are

so many other factors involved. Maybe you all should put on an event or

volunteer at an existing one and see.

Candi

So if this sounds strident, it has been a long weekend

-----Original Message-----

From: Adams, Mike [mailto:mad-@huttig.com]

Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 3:51 PM

To: thegree-@comcast.net; gmit-@yahoo.com; ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Cherry Pie - input?

Since someone liked my "visible banner" idea. Why not have 5k then 2k,

1k then open it up at 500 meters. the sprinters would wind it up at 2k

and by 1k if you can hold on you might have an opportunity for top 15.

This might not stop the wrecks but it would sure weed out the small guys

that only wish for an uphill finish.

-----Original Message-----

From: The Greenwalts [mailto:thegree-@comcast.net]

Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 3:43 PM

To: gmit-@yahoo.com; ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Cherry Pie - input?

I think the flag signals are an excellent idea!

Although it may be a bit much for those who have a hard time with course

markings such as 1K, 200M and the finish line.

How many times have we been in a race were the car pulls up next to us

and

tries to give instructions to the field? Interpretation, inner-peleton

communication and just plain not listening makes it tough to get the

point

across (sometimes we are riding with deaf racers). If a flag comes out

of

the car that's it. It has a pre determined meaning and that's what we

do.

But then again, someone would have to pay attention in the pre race

instructions.

Field size? Don't we want big competitive fields? Don't we want to race

against others?

If not, I'd suggest sticking with TTs.

I also agree that, while not mandatory, crashes happen in bicycle

racing.(

more in the early season).

That's how many figure out where they're comfortable in the last K.

I know I may have a very simplistic view BUT I'm a simple man

Ric

----- Original Message -----

From: "galen mittermann" <gmit-@yahoo.com>

To: <ob-@topica.com>

Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 2:04 PM

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Cherry Pie - input?

My own 2 cents:

The crash in the 3/4 happened in a front group of riders that was

what,

25 or so? The rest of the field was split and back. So arguably, the

sprint to the finish was the same as a 25 rider total field would have

been if no-one got gapped. I don't really think a smaller field would

have stopped that kind of accident. Where it would help is for the

rest

of the race, where having a peloton that big strung out in the wind on

one lane leads to a lot of speeding up and slowing down, especially in

the back, where the less experienced might be touching tires or

positioning

before the sprinting really starts. Rider behavior, what riders SHOULD

do (as in, people shouldn't go for it if they're not capable,

shouldn't

sprint for 20th, should push the pace earlier, or whatever) simply

isn't

going to change. All we can control is what the rules are and hence

what

people MUST do. Like opening the roads, or splitting categories, or

repositioning the finish.

Hopefully, races can be made safer throughout the course including the

finish sprints. Safer courses as well as proper field sizes for the

roads being raced. The wreck on Bachelor at cascade last year was the

most terrifying thing I have ever witnessed, and I think it can be

blamed on poor road conditions.

Galen

Disclaimer:

All opions expressed are my own and only my own, and do not reflect

the

opions or stand of my teammates, my team's sponsors, my employer, my

relatives, my girlfreind, my former college drinking buddies, or

Adams, Mike

2005-02-21

Since someone liked my "visible banner" idea. Why not have 5k then 2k, 1k then open it up at 500 meters. the sprinters would wind it up at 2k and by 1k if you can hold on you might have an opportunity for top 15. This might not stop the wrecks but it would sure weed out the small guys that only wish for an uphill finish.

-----Original Message-----

From: The Greenwalts [mailto:thegree-@comcast.net]

Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 3:43 PM

To: gmit-@yahoo.com; ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Cherry Pie - input?

I think the flag signals are an excellent idea!

Although it may be a bit much for those who have a hard time with course

markings such as 1K, 200M and the finish line.

How many times have we been in a race were the car pulls up next to us and

tries to give instructions to the field? Interpretation, inner-peleton

communication and just plain not listening makes it tough to get the point

across (sometimes we are riding with deaf racers). If a flag comes out of

the car that's it. It has a pre determined meaning and that's what we do.

But then again, someone would have to pay attention in the pre race

instructions.

Field size? Don't we want big competitive fields? Don't we want to race

against others?

If not, I'd suggest sticking with TTs.

I also agree that, while not mandatory, crashes happen in bicycle racing.(

more in the early season).

That's how many figure out where they're comfortable in the last K.

I know I may have a very simplistic view BUT I'm a simple man

Ric

----- Original Message -----

From: "galen mittermann" <gmit-@yahoo.com>

To: <ob-@topica.com>

Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 2:04 PM

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Cherry Pie - input?

My own 2 cents:

The crash in the 3/4 happened in a front group of riders that was what,

25 or so? The rest of the field was split and back. So arguably, the

sprint to the finish was the same as a 25 rider total field would have

been if no-one got gapped. I don't really think a smaller field would

have stopped that kind of accident. Where it would help is for the rest

of the race, where having a peloton that big strung out in the wind on

one lane leads to a lot of speeding up and slowing down, especially in

the back, where the less experienced might be touching tires or locking

handlebars.

I don't think there's much that can be done for pack sprint safety

unless the lanes get opened up a lot earlier, like at the 1k, as has

been suggested. It might reduce the urgent crowding at the front as

people would have that little bit extra time to maneuver for positioning

before the sprinting really starts. Rider behavior, what riders SHOULD

do (as in, people shouldn't go for it if they're not capable, shouldn't

sprint for 20th, should push the pace earlier, or whatever) simply isn't

going to change. All we can control is what the rules are and hence what

people MUST do. Like opening the roads, or splitting categories, or

repositioning the finish.

Hopefully, races can be made safer throughout the course including the

finish sprints. Safer courses as well as proper field sizes for the

roads being raced. The wreck on Bachelor at cascade last year was the

most terrifying thing I have ever witnessed, and I think it can be

blamed on poor road conditions.

Galen

Disclaimer:

All opions expressed are my own and only my own, and do not reflect the

opions or stand of my teammates, my team's sponsors, my employer, my

relatives, my girlfreind, my former college drinking buddies, or anyone

else with whom I have ever had an association, so gripes are to be

directed at myself and only at myself.

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

The Greenwalts

2005-02-21

I think the flag signals are an excellent idea!

Although it may be a bit much for those who have a hard time with course

markings such as 1K, 200M and the finish line.

How many times have we been in a race were the car pulls up next to us and

tries to give instructions to the field? Interpretation, inner-peleton

communication and just plain not listening makes it tough to get the point

across (sometimes we are riding with deaf racers). If a flag comes out of

the car that's it. It has a pre determined meaning and that's what we do.

But then again, someone would have to pay attention in the pre race

instructions.

Field size? Don't we want big competitive fields? Don't we want to race

against others?

If not, I'd suggest sticking with TTs.

I also agree that, while not mandatory, crashes happen in bicycle racing.(

more in the early season).

That's how many figure out where they're comfortable in the last K.

I know I may have a very simplistic view BUT I'm a simple man

Ric

----- Original Message -----

From: "galen mittermann" <gmit-@yahoo.com>

To: <ob-@topica.com>

Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 2:04 PM

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Cherry Pie - input?

My own 2 cents:

The crash in the 3/4 happened in a front group of riders that was what,

25 or so? The rest of the field was split and back. So arguably, the

sprint to the finish was the same as a 25 rider total field would have

been if no-one got gapped. I don't really think a smaller field would

have stopped that kind of accident. Where it would help is for the rest

of the race, where having a peloton that big strung out in the wind on

one lane leads to a lot of speeding up and slowing down, especially in

the back, where the less experienced might be touching tires or locking

handlebars.

I don't think there's much that can be done for pack sprint safety

unless the lanes get opened up a lot earlier, like at the 1k, as has

been suggested. It might reduce the urgent crowding at the front as

people would have that little bit extra time to maneuver for positioning

before the sprinting really starts. Rider behavior, what riders SHOULD

do (as in, people shouldn't go for it if they're not capable, shouldn't

sprint for 20th, should push the pace earlier, or whatever) simply isn't

going to change. All we can control is what the rules are and hence what

people MUST do. Like opening the roads, or splitting categories, or

repositioning the finish.

Hopefully, races can be made safer throughout the course including the

finish sprints. Safer courses as well as proper field sizes for the

roads being raced. The wreck on Bachelor at cascade last year was the

most terrifying thing I have ever witnessed, and I think it can be

blamed on poor road conditions.

Galen

Disclaimer:

All opions expressed are my own and only my own, and do not reflect the

opions or stand of my teammates, my team's sponsors, my employer, my

relatives, my girlfreind, my former college drinking buddies, or anyone

else with whom I have ever had an association, so gripes are to be

directed at myself and only at myself.

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

andrew.-@farmersinsurance.com

2005-02-21

come join mountain biking....we crash alot but the ground is soft and I

think I have seen one sprint finish in the last 4 years. VERY SAFE.

Drew Holmes

Bend, Oregon



 Thom Schoenborn

 <th-@thomsplace. To: ob-@topica.com

 com> cc:

 Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Cherry Pie - input?

 02/21/2005 01:25

 PM

 Please respond to

 thom





OK, since a few other people have brought up the field size, I feel OK

about chiming in, even though I'm but a mere 5 pup. Please feel free to

ignore...

If there are going to be those kind of numbers at the other road races

this year, maybe each category can have its own field? Can the fields

be broken up on race day at a race director's discretion? I mean 83 cat

5s? Wow! If half that 3/4 field were 4s, that means, potentially, the

first 4/5 race of the year could see a field of 134? Is that big?

(Seriously, I have no idea.) From the way everyone speaks about how

twitchy us newbies are, maybe 134 4/5s barreling toward the finish

isn't a great idea...

I've heard people talk about OBRA's phenomenal growth this year, which

is to be commended. But maybe someone with more brains and experience

than I knows how that growth might translate to field size at races.

Anyway, a total newbie's view...

TS

On Feb 21, 2005, at 9:02 AM, Andy Vaughn wrote:

I spoke with Dave Varoujean (one of the riders involved in the

accident-broken collarbone & bike) last night at the ER and tried to

get his input on why it all happened. It seems as though the field

size of the 3/4's (as was mentioned) was quite large for a

mixed-categor field, and also that it was quite dangerous with a

straight, flat finish to not have the road fully opened even earlier.

People started winding up their sprint (excited 3's and 4's who wanted

to win a pack sprint) way far out, and only having one lane to do so

made it extra chaotic. I also heard that a car was directed onto the

road coming the opposite direction, and passed them when they were

appx. at the 500m mark - still quite dangerous when 3's and 4's are

starting to sprint from way out there. So, it seems that a safer

finish is in order. The longer, hillier road races usually split the

pack more - making it safer; some races have uphill finishes - making

it slower and more deliberate; National races sometimes open up the

road earlier; sometimes field sizes are limited to lower numbers: I

know that we had a guy wreck at 50 mph in the Cascade Classic 3/4 race

last year in a field of 100+ riders. At the Banana Belt race last

year, it seemed like the wreck was caused due to a large intact field

coming in to a narrow downhill sprint - all the danger components

involved - something needs to be ensured to prevent that to happen

again.

Let's all wish Dave and the other riders a complete and speedy

recovery!

Andy Vaughn

OSU Cycling

mtnr-@hotmail.com

http://www.avcycling.com/

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

galen mittermann

2005-02-21

My own 2 cents:

The crash in the 3/4 happened in a front group of riders that was what,

25 or so? The rest of the field was split and back. So arguably, the

sprint to the finish was the same as a 25 rider total field would have

been if no-one got gapped. I don't really think a smaller field would

have stopped that kind of accident. Where it would help is for the rest

of the race, where having a peloton that big strung out in the wind on

one lane leads to a lot of speeding up and slowing down, especially in

the back, where the less experienced might be touching tires or locking

handlebars.

I don't think there's much that can be done for pack sprint safety

unless the lanes get opened up a lot earlier, like at the 1k, as has

been suggested. It might reduce the urgent crowding at the front as

people would have that little bit extra time to maneuver for positioning

before the sprinting really starts. Rider behavior, what riders SHOULD

do (as in, people shouldn't go for it if they're not capable, shouldn't

sprint for 20th, should push the pace earlier, or whatever) simply isn't

going to change. All we can control is what the rules are and hence what

people MUST do. Like opening the roads, or splitting categories, or

repositioning the finish.

Hopefully, races can be made safer throughout the course including the

finish sprints. Safer courses as well as proper field sizes for the

roads being raced. The wreck on Bachelor at cascade last year was the

most terrifying thing I have ever witnessed, and I think it can be

blamed on poor road conditions.

Galen

Disclaimer:

All opions expressed are my own and only my own, and do not reflect the

opions or stand of my teammates, my team's sponsors, my employer, my

relatives, my girlfreind, my former college drinking buddies, or anyone

else with whom I have ever had an association, so gripes are to be

directed at myself and only at myself.

Candi Murray

2005-02-21

Yes Tom that option is available. But there are so many more

considerations. Is there available staff to run additional lead/follow

and support cars? Is the course long enough to avoid large groups

catching and passing each other? How would prize lists be split?

There should have been a 50 rider cap on the Cat 5 field. This was the

first race that has offered a Cat 5 only field. In years past they have

ridden with the 4's. We had no idea that the response would be so huge.

And no one counted the registration until the riders were lined up.

There is a 100 rider limit on the other fields. We were bumping Cat 3

riders out of the Cat 3/4 field into the Cat 1/2/3. Last year we turned

riders away when Cherry Pie met it's field limits.

I think that what might occur is that more fields will close. Pre

Registration is going to be a must!

Candi

-----Original Message-----

From: Thom Schoenborn [mailto:th-@thomsplace.com]

Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 1:25 PM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Cherry Pie - input?

OK, since a few other people have brought up the field size, I feel OK

about chiming in, even though I'm but a mere 5 pup. Please feel free to

ignore...

If there are going to be those kind of numbers at the other road races

this year, maybe each category can have its own field? Can the fields

be broken up on race day at a race director's discretion? I mean 83 cat

5s? Wow! If half that 3/4 field were 4s, that means, potentially, the

first 4/5 race of the year could see a field of 134? Is that big?

(Seriously, I have no idea.) From the way everyone speaks about how

twitchy us newbies are, maybe 134 4/5s barreling toward the finish

isn't a great idea...

I've heard people talk about OBRA's phenomenal growth this year, which

is to be commended. But maybe someone with more brains and experience

than I knows how that growth might translate to field size at races.

Anyway, a total newbie's view...

TS

On Feb 21, 2005, at 9:02 AM, Andy Vaughn wrote:

I spoke with Dave Varoujean (one of the riders involved in the

accident-broken collarbone & bike) last night at the ER and tried to

get his input on why it all happened. It seems as though the field

size of the 3/4's (as was mentioned) was quite large for a

mixed-categor field, and also that it was quite dangerous with a

straight, flat finish to not have the road fully opened even earlier.

People started winding up their sprint (excited 3's and 4's who wanted

to win a pack sprint) way far out, and only having one lane to do so

made it extra chaotic. I also heard that a car was directed onto the

road coming the opposite direction, and passed them when they were

appx. at the 500m mark - still quite dangerous when 3's and 4's are

starting to sprint from way out there. So, it seems that a safer

finish is in order. The longer, hillier road races usually split the

pack more - making it safer; some races have uphill finishes - making

it slower and more deliberate; National races sometimes open up the

road earlier; sometimes field sizes are limited to lower numbers: I

know that we had a guy wreck at 50 mph in the Cascade Classic 3/4 race

last year in a field of 100+ riders. At the Banana Belt race last

year, it seemed like the wreck was caused due to a large intact field

coming in to a narrow downhill sprint - all the danger components

involved - something needs to be ensured to prevent that to happen

again.

Let's all wish Dave and the other riders a complete and speedy

recovery!

Andy Vaughn

OSU Cycling

mtnr-@hotmail.com

http://www.avcycling.com/

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

Adams, Mike

2005-02-21

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C5185D.CC795C70

Content-Type: text/plain;

charset="iso-8859-1"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

I know that this might not be impossible but what about signage at the 1K and 200K mark being displayed on a banner 7' to 8' high so as to be seen if you are not at the front or on the side of the road that the obscure one is now. I know those flagger signs need to be visible for a min. of 500 yards. I know that is for cars but if you could see the sign sooner the teams could start their sprint train or go to the back and hold your place and finish rubber side down. Just a thought.

-----Original Message-----

From: Candi Murray [mailto:cmur-@obra.org]

Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 1:27 PM

To: musicvi-@yahoo.com; ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Cherry Pie - input?

Maybe everyone should take a minute and read the rules. They are on the website. It is the rider's responsibility to know the course. There were 1 K and 200 meter signs on the course. The big Yellow truck is always at the finish. Many of the road permits will not allow us to up banners or to use both lanes. If we as race organizers and officials can not control the on coming traffic then you are left to 1 lane.

-----Original Message-----

From: alex zeisberg [mailto:musicvi-@yahoo.com]

Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 12:37 PM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Cherry Pie - input?

I think that we should have the full road to sprint in and i think that there should be huge signs over the road that say "FINISH". I didnt really understand where the finish was at cherry pie or jackfrost but whatever thats my fault, but i do think it would help to have a huge sign. I also like to idea of spliting up the 3's and the 4's next year. It was a really large group for one lane.

I do want to say that the race was alot alot of fun and i learned soooo much racing with the 3's(im a 4). Thanks so much for throwing that race it was AWESOME!

Good luck to everyone racing and get well soon to the people that got hurt at the race.

Alex Zeisberg

andrew barrett <barrett-@msn.com> wrote:

I agree we need a system to clearly communicate to the riders from the official's

car in these unfortunate situations.

In the 1,2,3 field I heard that we would only have one lane and (I think) something

about an "early finish." The problem with "early finish" is where exactly?

A flag or paddle or sign from the car that would indicate the finish has been moved

to the 200m mark (1st choice) or the 1k mark (2nd choice) would have made this

more clear. I would leave it to the experts to determine the best way to

communicate this and how to get officials into position at the new finish line.

The suggestions for next year from Norman Babcock and Nancy Waggoner to spread

out the various groups expected finish times sound like a good way to tackle this as

well.

I don't think hill-top finishes or asking "non-sprinters" to stay out of the way will

effectively address the problem.

As all ways, many thanks to the promoters and officials for making this all possible.

Regards.

Andrew Barrett

----- Original Message -----

From: Candi <mailto:cmur-@obra.org> Murray

To: ob-@topica.com

Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 7:37 AM

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Cherry Pie - input?

So there was a crash in the very large Cat 3 & 4 field about 300 meters from the finish. Four riders went down, two were injured. The ambulance and subsequent went to help. There were 3 fields still behind them finishing.

1st group behind Masters 45+ broken into 2 smalll fields from 2-10 riders. They were neutralized and all finished with the same place of the that group. Two 1st places, 6 3rd places etc.

We heard that the next group was the women. The finish line communicated to that field that the finish would be quickly moved to the 1K mark. The field was informed but obviously not the riders otb. There finish was not a problem either.

However the Cat 1,2,3 passed the women somewhere along the last 4 miles and came in aiming for the real finish. Some of the riders heard that they no longer had the full road, but it doesnot seem that they got the word on the move. Plus the move was moving 1 judge down to manual pick as the truck and camera could not get around the riders in the road/ambulance. The judge was surprised and did not get them picked. We have film that we were still trying to review at 5 pm. I am not sure what results that we will come up with.

This is the 2nd time in 12 months that we have had a crash at or very near the finish with more fields approaching. We need to develop a system of making sure the riders know what is happening. First and foremost this is JUST bike racing. When you see ambulances and bodies in the road realize that your finish will not be the most important thing on the officials mind.

It was suggested that since informing riders on the road is difficult that we come up with a paddle or flag system that the official cars hold up to signify that things need to come to a screeching halt. I am up for suggestions.

The two riders sustained collarbone/clavicle fractures degrees of severity. We all wish them a speedy return to the peleton.

Candi Murray

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

Alex Zeisberg

For all your sound needs...

IFAF Studios

503-626-0114

__________________________________________________

Do You Yahoo!?

Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around

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To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

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<DIV>I know

that this might not be impossible but what about signage at the 1K and 200K mark

being displayed on a banner 7' to 8' high so as to be seen if you are not at the

front or on the side of the road that the obscure one is now. I know those

flagger signs need to be visible for a min. of 500 yards. I know that is for

cars but if you could see the sign sooner the teams could start their sprint

train or go to the back and hold your place and finish rubber side down. Just a

thought.</DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left>-----Original Message----- From: Candi Murray

[mailto:cmur-@obra.org] Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 1:27

PM To: musicvi-@yahoo.com; ob-@topica.com Subject:

RE: [OBRA Chat] Cherry Pie - input? </DIV>

<DIV class=Section1>

Maybe everyone should

take a minute and read the rules.

They are on the website.

It is the rider’s responsibility to know the course. There were 1 K and 200 meter signs on

the course. The big Yellow truck is always at the finish. Many of the road

permits will not allow us to up banners or to use both lanes. If we as race organizers and officials

can not control the on coming traffic then you are left to 1

lane.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

-----Original

Message----- From: alex

zeisberg [mailto:musicvi-@yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 12:37

PM To:

ob-@topica.com Subject: Re:

[OBRA Chat] Cherry Pie - input?

<o:p> </o:p>

<DIV>

<DIV>

I think that we should have the full road

to sprint in and i think that there should be huge signs over the road that

say "FINISH". I didnt really understand where the finish was at cherry pie or

jackfrost but whatever thats my fault, but i do think it would help to have a

huge sign. I also like to idea of spliting up the 3's and the 4's next year.

It was a really large group for one lane. <o:p></o:p></DIV>

<DIV>

 <o:p></o:p></DIV>

<DIV>

I do want to say that the race was alot

alot of fun and i learned soooo much racing with the 3's(im a 4). Thanks so

much for throwing that race it was AWESOME!<o:p></o:p></DIV>

<DIV>

 <o:p></o:p></DIV>

<DIV>

Good luck to everyone racing and get well

soon to the people that got hurt at the race.

<o:p></o:p></DIV>

<DIV>

 <o:p></o:p></DIV>

<DIV>

Alex Zeisberg andrew barrett

<barrett-@msn.com>

wrote:<o:p></o:p></DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE

style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">

 <DIV>

 <DIV>

 I agree we need a system to clearly

 communicate to the riders from the

 official's<o:p></o:p></DIV>

 <DIV>

 car in these unfortunate

 situations.<o:p></o:p></DIV>

 <DIV>

 <o:p></o:p></DIV>

 <DIV>

 In the 1,2,3 field I heard that we

 would only have one lane and (I think)

 something<o:p></o:p></DIV>

 <DIV>

 about an "early finish." The

 problem with "early finish" is where

 exactly?<o:p></o:p></DIV>

 <DIV>

 <o:p></o:p></DIV>

 <DIV>

 A flag or paddle or sign from

 the car that would indicate the finish has been

 moved<o:p></o:p></DIV>

 <DIV>

 to the 200m mark (1st choice) or the 1k

 mark (2nd choice) would have made this<o:p></o:p></DIV>

 <DIV>

 more clear. I would leave it to

 the experts to determine the best way to<o:p></o:p></DIV>

 <DIV>

 communicate this and how to get

 officials into position at the new finish

 line.<o:p></o:p></DIV>

 <DIV>

 <o:p></o:p></DIV>

 <DIV>

 The suggestions for next year from

 Norman Babcock and Nancy Waggoner to

 spread<o:p></o:p></DIV>

 <DIV>

 out the various groups expected finish

 times sound like a good way to tackle this

 as<o:p></o:p></DIV>

 <DIV>

 well.<o:p></o:p></DIV>

 <DIV>

 <o:p></o:p></DIV>

 <DIV>

 I don’t think hill-top finishes or

 asking "non-sprinters" to stay out of the way will

 <o:p></o:p></DIV>

 <DIV>

 effectively address the

 problem.<o:p></o:p></DIV>

 <DIV>

 <o:p></o:p></DIV>

 <DIV>

 As all ways, many thanks to the

 promoters and officials for making this all

 possible.<o:p></o:p></DIV>

 <DIV>

 <o:p></o:p></DIV>

 <DIV>

 Regards.<o:p></o:p></DIV>

 <DIV>

 Andrew

 Barrett<o:p></o:p></DIV>

 <DIV>

 <o:p></o:p></DIV>

 <DIV>

 <o:p></o:p></DIV>

 <DIV>

 ----- Original Message -----

 <o:p></o:p></DIV>

 <BLOCKQUOTE

 style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">

 <DIV>

 From: <A

 title=mailto:cmur-@obra.org href="mailto:cmur-@obra.org">Candi

 Murray</A> <o:p></o:p></DIV>

 <DIV>

 To: <A

 title=mailto:ob-@topica.com

 href="mailto:ob-@topica.com">ob-@topica.com</A>

 <o:p></o:p></DIV>

 <DIV>

 Sent:

 Monday, February 21, 2005 7:37 AM<o:p></o:p></DIV>

 <DIV>

 Subject: [OBRA

 Chat] Cherry Pie - input?<o:p></o:p></DIV>

 <DIV>

 <o:p> </o:p></DIV>

 So there was a

 crash in the very large Cat 3 & 4 field about 300 meters from the

 finish. Four riders went

 down, two were injured. The

 ambulance and subsequent went to help. There were 3 fields still behind

 them finishing.<o:p></o:p><o:p></o:p>

 1st

 group behind Masters 45+ broken into 2 smalll fields from 2-10

 riders. They were neutralized

 and all finished with the same place of the that group. Two 1st

 places, 6 3rd places

 etc.<o:p></o:p><o:p></o:p>

 We heard that the

 next group was the women. The

 finish line communicated to that field that the finish would be quickly

 moved to the 1K mark. The

 field was informed but obviously not the riders otb. There finish was not a problem

 either.<o:p></o:p><o:p></o:p>

 However the Cat

 1,2,3 passed the women somewhere along the last 4 miles and came in aiming

 for the real finish. Some of

 the riders heard that they no longer had the full road, but it doesnot

 seem that they got the word on the move. Plus the move was moving 1 judge

 down to manual pick as the truck and camera could not get around the

 riders in the road/ambulance.

 The judge was surprised and did not get them picked. We have film that we were still

 trying to review at <ST1:TIME Hour="17" Minute="0">5 pm</ST1:TIME>. I am not sure what results that we

 will come up with.<o:p></o:p><o:p></o:p>

 This is the

 2nd time in 12 months that we have had a crash at or very near

 the finish with more fields approaching. We need to develop a system of

 making sure the riders know what is happening. First and foremost this is JUST

 bike racing. When you see

 ambulances and bodies in the road realize that your finish will not be the

 most important thing on the officials mind. <o:p></o:p><o:p></o:p>

 It was suggested

 that since informing riders on the road is difficult that we come up with

 a paddle or flag system that the official cars hold up to signify that

 things need to come to a screeching halt. I am up for

 suggestions.<o:p></o:p><o:p></o:p>

 <o:p> </o:p><o:p></o:p>

 The two riders

 sustained collarbone/clavicle fractures degrees of severity. We all wish

 them a speedy return to the

 peleton.<o:p></o:p><o:p></o:p>

 <o:p> </o:p><o:p></o:p>

 Candi

 Murray<o:p></o:p><o:p></o:p>

 <o:p> </o:p><o:p></o:p><PRE style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.<o:p></o:p></PRE><PRE style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org<o:p></o:p></PRE><PRE style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com<o:p></o:p></PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><PRE style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.<o:p></o:p></PRE><PRE style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org<o:p></o:p></PRE><PRE style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com<o:p></o:p></PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>

 Alex Zeisberg For all your

sound needs... IFAF Studios 503-626-0114<o:p></o:p>

__________________________________________________ Do

You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around

 http://mail.yahoo.com <o:p></o:p></DIV><PRE>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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Keith A. Prior

2005-02-21

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In regards to messages about road use, crashes and centerline all I have to

says is...you just wait until after Piece of Cake is run!!! hehehe

-K

-----Original Message-----

From: Candi Murray [mailto:cmur-@obra.org]

Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 1:27 PM

To: musicvi-@yahoo.com; ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Cherry Pie - input?

Maybe everyone should take a minute and read the rules. They are on the

website. It is the rider's responsibility to know the course. There were 1

K and 200 meter signs on the course. The big Yellow truck is always at the

finish. Many of the road permits will not allow us to up banners or to use

both lanes. If we as race organizers and officials can not control the on

coming traffic then you are left to 1 lane.

-----Original Message-----

From: alex zeisberg [mailto:musicvi-@yahoo.com]

Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 12:37 PM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Cherry Pie - input?

I think that we should have the full road to sprint in and i think that

there should be huge signs over the road that say "FINISH". I didnt really

understand where the finish was at cherry pie or jackfrost but whatever

thats my fault, but i do think it would help to have a huge sign. I also

like to idea of spliting up the 3's and the 4's next year. It was a really

large group for one lane.

I do want to say that the race was alot alot of fun and i learned soooo

much racing with the 3's(im a 4). Thanks so much for throwing that race it

was AWESOME!

Good luck to everyone racing and get well soon to the people that got hurt

at the race.

Alex Zeisberg

andrew barrett <barrett-@msn.com> wrote:

 I agree we need a system to clearly communicate to the riders from the

official's

 car in these unfortunate situations.

 In the 1,2,3 field I heard that we would only have one lane and (I

think) something

 about an "early finish." The problem with "early finish" is where

exactly?

 A flag or paddle or sign from the car that would indicate the finish has

been moved

 to the 200m mark (1st choice) or the 1k mark (2nd choice) would have

made this

 more clear. I would leave it to the experts to determine the best way

to

 communicate this and how to get officials into position at the new

finish line.

 The suggestions for next year from Norman Babcock and Nancy Waggoner to

spread

 out the various groups expected finish times sound like a good way to

tackle this as

 well.

 I don't think hill-top finishes or asking "non-sprinters" to stay out of

the way will

 effectively address the problem.

 As all ways, many thanks to the promoters and officials for making this

all possible.

 Regards.

 Andrew Barrett

 ----- Original Message -----

 From: Candi Murray

 To: ob-@topica.com

 Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 7:37 AM

 Subject: [OBRA Chat] Cherry Pie - input?

 So there was a crash in the very large Cat 3 & 4 field about 300

meters from the finish. Four riders went down, two were injured. The

ambulance and subsequent went to help. There were 3 fields still behind

them finishing.

 1st group behind Masters 45+ broken into 2 smalll fields from 2-10

riders. They were neutralized and all finished with the same place of the

that group. Two 1st places, 6 3rd places etc.

 We heard that the next group was the women. The finish line

communicated to that field that the finish would be quickly moved to the 1K

mark. The field was informed but obviously not the riders otb. There

finish was not a problem either.

 However the Cat 1,2,3 passed the women somewhere along the last 4

miles and came in aiming for the real finish. Some of the riders heard that

they no longer had the full road, but it doesnot seem that they got the word

on the move. Plus the move was moving 1 judge down to manual pick as the

truck and camera could not get around the riders in the road/ambulance. The

judge was surprised and did not get them picked. We have film that we were

still trying to review at 5 pm. I am not sure what results that we will

come up with.

 This is the 2nd time in 12 months that we have had a crash at or very

near the finish with more fields approaching. We need to develop a system

of making sure the riders know what is happening. First and foremost this

is JUST bike racing. When you see ambulances and bodies in the road realize

that your finish will not be the most important thing on the officials mind.

 It was suggested that since informing riders on the road is difficult

that we come up with a paddle or flag system that the official cars hold up

to signify that things need to come to a screeching halt. I am up for

suggestions.

 The two riders sustained collarbone/clavicle fractures degrees of

severity. We all wish them a speedy return to the peleton.

 Candi Murray

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.To respond to the list

manager send to cmur-@obra.orgTo unsubscribe send to

obra-uns-@topica.comTo respond to the whole group send to

ob-@topica.com.To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.orgTo

unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

Alex Zeisberg

For all your sound needs...

IFAF Studios

503-626-0114

__________________________________________________

Do You Yahoo!?

Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around

http://mail.yahoo.com

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to

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<DIV>In

regards to messages about road use, crashes and centerline all I have to says

is...you just wait until after Piece of Cake is run!!!

hehehe</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>-K</DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left>-----Original Message----- From: Candi Murray

[mailto:cmur-@obra.org] Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 1:27

PM To: musicvi-@yahoo.com; ob-@topica.com Subject:

RE: [OBRA Chat] Cherry Pie - input? </DIV>

<DIV class=Section1>

Maybe everyone should

take a minute and read the rules.

They are on the website.

It is the rider’s responsibility to know the course. There were 1 K and 200 meter signs on

the course. The big Yellow truck is always at the finish. Many of the road

permits will not allow us to up banners or to use both lanes. If we as race organizers and officials

can not control the on coming traffic then you are left to 1

lane.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

-----Original

Message----- From: alex

zeisberg [mailto:musicvi-@yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 12:37

PM To:

ob-@topica.com Subject: Re:

[OBRA Chat] Cherry Pie - input?

<o:p> </o:p>

<DIV>

<DIV>

I think that we should have the full road

to sprint in and i think that there should be huge signs over the road that

say "FINISH". I didnt really understand where the finish was at cherry pie or

jackfrost but whatever thats my fault, but i do think it would help to have a

huge sign. I also like to idea of spliting up the 3's and the 4's next year.

It was a really large group for one lane. <o:p></o:p></DIV>

<DIV>

 <o:p></o:p></DIV>

<DIV>

I do want to say that the race was alot

alot of fun and i learned soooo much racing with the 3's(im a 4). Thanks so

much for throwing that race it was AWESOME!<o:p></o:p></DIV>

<DIV>

 <o:p></o:p></DIV>

<DIV>

Good luck to everyone racing and get well

soon to the people that got hurt at the race.

<o:p></o:p></DIV>

<DIV>

 <o:p></o:p></DIV>

<DIV>

Alex Zeisberg andrew barrett

<barrett-@msn.com>

wrote:<o:p></o:p></DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE

style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">

 <DIV>

 <DIV>

 I agree we need a system to clearly

 communicate to the riders from the

 official's<o:p></o:p></DIV>

 <DIV>

 car in these unfortunate

 situations.<o:p></o:p></DIV>

 <DIV>

 <o:p></o:p></DIV>

 <DIV>

 In the 1,2,3 field I heard that we

 would only have one lane and (I think)

 something<o:p></o:p></DIV>

 <DIV>

 about an "early finish." The

 problem with "early finish" is where

 exactly?<o:p></o:p></DIV>

 <DIV>

 <o:p></o:p></DIV>

 <DIV>

 A flag or paddle or sign from

 the car that would indicate the finish has been

 moved<o:p></o:p></DIV>

 <DIV>

 to the 200m mark (1st choice) or the 1k

 mark (2nd choice) would have made this<o:p></o:p></DIV>

 <DIV>

 more clear. I would leave it to

 the experts to determine the best way to<o:p></o:p></DIV>

 <DIV>

 communicate this and how to get

 officials into position at the new finish

 line.<o:p></o:p></DIV>

 <DIV>

 <o:p></o:p></DIV>

 <DIV>

 The suggestions for next year from

 Norman Babcock and Nancy Waggoner to

 spread<o:p></o:p></DIV>

 <DIV>

 out the various groups expected finish

 times sound like a good way to tackle this

 as<o:p></o:p></DIV>

 <DIV>

 well.<o:p></o:p></DIV>

 <DIV>

 <o:p></o:p></DIV>

 <DIV>

 I don’t think hill-top finishes or

 asking "non-sprinters" to stay out of the way will

 <o:p></o:p></DIV>

 <DIV>

 effectively address the

 problem.<o:p></o:p></DIV>

 <DIV>

 <o:p></o:p></DIV>

 <DIV>

 As all ways, many thanks to the

 promoters and officials for making this all

 possible.<o:p></o:p></DIV>

 <DIV>

 <o:p></o:p></DIV>

 <DIV>

 Regards.<o:p></o:p></DIV>

 <DIV>

 Andrew

 Barrett<o:p></o:p></DIV>

 <DIV>

 <o:p></o:p></DIV>

 <DIV>

 <o:p></o:p></DIV>

 <DIV>

 ----- Original Message -----

 <o:p></o:p></DIV>

 <BLOCKQUOTE

 style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">

 <DIV>

 From: <A

 title=mailto:cmur-@obra.org href="mailto:cmur-@obra.org">Candi

 Murray</A> <o:p></o:p></DIV>

 <DIV>

 To: <A

 title=mailto:ob-@topica.com

 href="mailto:ob-@topica.com">ob-@topica.com</A>

 <o:p></o:p></DIV>

 <DIV>

 Sent:

 Monday, February 21, 2005 7:37 AM<o:p></o:p></DIV>

 <DIV>

 Subject: [OBRA

 Chat] Cherry Pie - input?<o:p></o:p></DIV>

 <DIV>

 <o:p> </o:p></DIV>

 So there was a

 crash in the very large Cat 3 & 4 field about 300 meters from the

 finish. Four riders went

 down, two were injured. The

 ambulance and subsequent went to help. There were 3 fields still behind

 them finishing.<o:p></o:p><o:p></o:p>

 1st

 group behind Masters 45+ broken into 2 smalll fields from 2-10

 riders. They were neutralized

 and all finished with the same place of the that group. Two 1st

 places, 6 3rd places

 etc.<o:p></o:p><o:p></o:p>

 We heard that the

 next group was the women. The

 finish line communicated to that field that the finish would be quickly

 moved to the 1K mark. The

 field was informed but obviously not the riders otb. There finish was not a problem

 either.<o:p></o:p><o:p></o:p>

 However the Cat

 1,2,3 passed the women somewhere along the last 4 miles and came in aiming

 for the real finish. Some of

 the riders heard that they no longer had the full road, but it doesnot

 seem that they got the word on the move. Plus the move was moving 1 judge

 down to manual pick as the truck and camera could not get around the

 riders in the road/ambulance.

 The judge was surprised and did not get them picked. We have film that we were still

 trying to review at <ST1:TIME Hour="17" Minute="0">5 pm</ST1:TIME>. I am not sure what results that we

 will come up with.<o:p></o:p><o:p></o:p>

 This is the

 2nd time in 12 months that we have had a crash at or very near

 the finish with more fields approaching. We need to develop a system of

 making sure the riders know what is happening. First and foremost this is JUST

 bike racing. When you see

 ambulances and bodies in the road realize that your finish will not be the

 most important thing on the officials mind. <o:p></o:p><o:p></o:p>

 It was suggested

 that since informing riders on the road is difficult that we come up with

 a paddle or flag system that the official cars hold up to signify that

 things need to come to a screeching halt. I am up for

 suggestions.<o:p></o:p><o:p></o:p>

 <o:p> </o:p><o:p></o:p>

 The two riders

 sustained collarbone/clavicle fractures degrees of severity. We all wish

 them a speedy return to the

 peleton.<o:p></o:p><o:p></o:p>

 <o:p> </o:p><o:p></o:p>

 Candi

 Murray<o:p></o:p><o:p></o:p>

 <o:p> </o:p><o:p></o:p><PRE style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.<o:p></o:p></PRE><PRE style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org<o:p></o:p></PRE><PRE style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com<o:p></o:p></PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><PRE style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.<o:p></o:p></PRE><PRE style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org<o:p></o:p></PRE><PRE style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com<o:p></o:p></PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>

 Alex Zeisberg For all your

sound needs... IFAF Studios 503-626-0114<o:p></o:p>

__________________________________________________ Do

You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around

 http://mail.yahoo.com <o:p></o:p></DIV><PRE>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C5181A.456265E0--

Candi Murray

2005-02-21

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C51819.151E6650

Content-Type: text/plain;

charset="us-ascii"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Maybe everyone should take a minute and read the rules. They are on the

website. It is the rider's responsibility to know the course. There

were 1 K and 200 meter signs on the course. The big Yellow truck is

always at the finish. Many of the road permits will not allow us to up

banners or to use both lanes. If we as race organizers and officials

can not control the on coming traffic then you are left to 1 lane.

-----Original Message-----

From: alex zeisberg [mailto:musicvi-@yahoo.com]

Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 12:37 PM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Cherry Pie - input?

I think that we should have the full road to sprint in and i think that

there should be huge signs over the road that say "FINISH". I didnt

really understand where the finish was at cherry pie or jackfrost but

whatever thats my fault, but i do think it would help to have a huge

sign. I also like to idea of spliting up the 3's and the 4's next year.

It was a really large group for one lane.

I do want to say that the race was alot alot of fun and i learned soooo

much racing with the 3's(im a 4). Thanks so much for throwing that race

it was AWESOME!

Good luck to everyone racing and get well soon to the people that got

hurt at the race.

Alex Zeisberg

andrew barrett <barrett-@msn.com> wrote:

I agree we need a system to clearly communicate to the riders from the

official's

car in these unfortunate situations.

In the 1,2,3 field I heard that we would only have one lane and (I

think) something

about an "early finish." The problem with "early finish" is where

exactly?

A flag or paddle or sign from the car that would indicate the finish has

been moved

to the 200m mark (1st choice) or the 1k mark (2nd choice) would have

made this

more clear. I would leave it to the experts to determine the best way

to

communicate this and how to get officials into position at the new

finish line.

The suggestions for next year from Norman Babcock and Nancy Waggoner to

spread

out the various groups expected finish times sound like a good way to

tackle this as

well.

I don't think hill-top finishes or asking "non-sprinters" to stay out of

the way will

effectively address the problem.

As all ways, many thanks to the promoters and officials for making this

all possible.

Regards.

Andrew Barrett

----- Original Message -----

From: Candi Murray <mailto:cmur-@obra.org>

To: ob-@topica.com

Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 7:37 AM

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Cherry Pie - input?

So there was a crash in the very large Cat 3 & 4 field about 300 meters

from the finish. Four riders went down, two were injured. The

ambulance and subsequent went to help. There were 3 fields still behind

them finishing.

1st group behind Masters 45+ broken into 2 smalll fields from 2-10

riders. They were neutralized and all finished with the same place of

the that group. Two 1st places, 6 3rd places etc.

We heard that the next group was the women. The finish line

communicated to that field that the finish would be quickly moved to the

1K mark. The field was informed but obviously not the riders otb.

There finish was not a problem either.

However the Cat 1,2,3 passed the women somewhere along the last 4 miles

and came in aiming for the real finish. Some of the riders heard that

they no longer had the full road, but it doesnot seem that they got the

word on the move. Plus the move was moving 1 judge down to manual pick

as the truck and camera could not get around the riders in the

road/ambulance. The judge was surprised and did not get them picked.

We have film that we were still trying to review at 5 pm. I am not sure

what results that we will come up with.

This is the 2nd time in 12 months that we have had a crash at or very

near the finish with more fields approaching. We need to develop a

system of making sure the riders know what is happening. First and

foremost this is JUST bike racing. When you see ambulances and bodies

in the road realize that your finish will not be the most important

thing on the officials mind.

It was suggested that since informing riders on the road is difficult

that we come up with a paddle or flag system that the official cars hold

up to signify that things need to come to a screeching halt. I am up

for suggestions.

The two riders sustained collarbone/clavicle fractures degrees of

severity. We all wish them a speedy return to the peleton.

Candi Murray

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

Alex Zeisberg

For all your sound needs...

IFAF Studios

503-626-0114

__________________________________________________

Do You Yahoo!?

Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around

http://mail.yahoo.com

------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C51819.151E6650

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<div class=Section1>

Maybe everyone should take a minute and

read the rules. They are on the

website. It is the rider’s

responsibility to know the course.

There were 1 K and 200 meter signs on the course. The big Yellow truck

is always at the finish. Many of the road permits will not allow us to up

banners or to use both lanes. If we

as race organizers and officials can not control the on coming traffic then you

are left to 1 lane.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

-----Original Message----- 

From: alex zeisberg

[mailto:musicvi-@yahoo.com] 

Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005

12:37 PM 

To: ob-@topica.com 

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Cherry

Pie - input?

<o:p> </o:p>

<div>

<div>

I think that we should have the full road to sprint in

and i think that there should be huge signs over the road that say

"FINISH". I didnt really understand where the finish was at cherry

pie or jackfrost but whatever thats my fault, but i do think it would help to

have a huge sign. I also like to idea of spliting up the 3's and the 4's next

year. It was a really large group for one lane. <o:p></o:p>

</div>

<div>

 <o:p></o:p>

</div>

<div>

I do want to say that the race was alot alot of fun

and i learned soooo much racing with the 3's(im a 4). Thanks so much for

throwing that race it was AWESOME!<o:p></o:p>

</div>

<div>

 <o:p></o:p>

</div>

<div>

Good luck to everyone racing and get well soon to the

people that got hurt at the race. <o:p></o:p>

</div>

<div>

 <o:p></o:p>

</div>

<div>

Alex Zeisberg 

 

andrew barrett

<barrett-@msn.com> wrote:<o:p></o:p>

</div>

<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;

margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>

<div>

<div>

I agree we need a system to clearly communicate to the

riders from the official's<o:p></o:p>

</div>

<div>

car in these unfortunate situations.<o:p></o:p>

</div>

<div>

 <o:p></o:p>

</div>

<div>

In the 1,2,3 field I heard that we would only have one

lane and (I think) something<o:p></o:p>

</div>

<div>

about an "early finish." The problem

with "early finish" is where exactly?<o:p></o:p>

</div>

<div>

 <o:p></o:p>

</div>

<div>

A flag or paddle or sign from the car that

would indicate the finish has been moved<o:p></o:p>

</div>

<div>

to the 200m mark (1st choice) or the 1k mark (2nd

choice) would have made this<o:p></o:p>

</div>

<div>

more clear. I would leave it to the experts to

determine the best way to<o:p></o:p>

</div>

<div>

communicate this and how to get officials into

position at the new finish line.<o:p></o:p>

</div>

<div>

 <o:p></o:p>

</div>

<div>

The suggestions for next year from Norman Babcock and

Nancy Waggoner to spread<o:p></o:p>

</div>

<div>

out the various groups expected finish times sound

like a good way to tackle this as<o:p></o:p>

</div>

<div>

well.<o:p></o:p>

</div>

<div>

 <o:p></o:p>

</div>

<div>

I don’t think hill-top finishes or asking

"non-sprinters" to stay out of the way will <o:p></o:p>

</div>

<div>

effectively address the problem.<o:p></o:p>

</div>

<div>

 <o:p></o:p>

</div>

<div>

As all ways, many thanks to the promoters and

officials for making this all possible.<o:p></o:p>

</div>

<div>

 <o:p></o:p>

</div>

<div>

Regards.<o:p></o:p>

</div>

<div>

Andrew Barrett<o:p></o:p>

</div>

<div>

 <o:p></o:p>

</div>

<div>

 <o:p></o:p>

</div>

<div>

----- Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p>

</div>

<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;

margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>

<div>

From: <a

href="mailto:cmur-@obra.org" title="mailto:cmur-@obra.org">Candi Murray</a>

<o:p></o:p>

</div>

<div>

To: <a

href="mailto:ob-@topica.com" title="mailto:ob-@topica.com">ob-@topica.com</a>

<o:p></o:p>

</div>

<div>

Sent: Monday,

February 21, 2005 7:37 AM<o:p></o:p>

</div>

<div>

Subject: [OBRA Chat]

Cherry Pie - input?<o:p></o:p>

</div>

<div>

<o:p> </o:p>

</div>

So there was a crash in the very

large Cat 3 & 4 field about 300 meters from the finish. Four riders went down, two were

injured. The ambulance and

subsequent went to help. There were

3 fields still behind them finishing.<o:p></o:p><o:p></o:p>

1st group behind Masters

45+ broken into 2 smalll fields from 2-10 riders. They were neutralized and all finished

with the same place of the that group. Two 1st places, 6 3rd

places etc.<o:p></o:p><o:p></o:p>

We heard that the next group was the

women. The finish line communicated

to that field that the finish would be quickly moved to the 1K mark. The field was informed but obviously not

the riders otb. There finish was

not a problem either.<o:p></o:p><o:p></o:p>

However the Cat 1,2,3 passed the

women somewhere along the last 4 miles and came in aiming for the real

finish. Some of the riders heard

that they no longer had the full road, but it doesnot seem that they got the

word on the move. Plus the move was

moving 1 judge down to manual pick as the truck and camera could not get around

the riders in the road/ambulance.

The judge was surprised and did not get them picked. We have film that we were still trying

to review at <st1:time Minute="0" Hour="17">5 pm</st1:time>. I am not sure what results that we will

come up with.<o:p></o:p><o:p></o:p>

This is the 2nd time in

12 months that we have had a crash at or very near the finish with more fields

approaching. We need to develop a

system of making sure the riders know what is happening. First and foremost this is JUST bike

racing. When you see ambulances and

bodies in the road realize that your finish will not be the most important

thing on the officials mind. <o:p></o:p><o:p></o:p>

It was suggested that since

informing riders on the road is difficult that we come up with a paddle or flag

system that the official cars hold up to signify that things need to come to a

screeching halt. I am up for

suggestions.<o:p></o:p><o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p><o:p></o:p>

The two riders sustained

collarbone/clavicle fractures degrees of severity. We all wish them a speedy

return to the peleton.<o:p></o:p><o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p><o:p></o:p>

Candi Murray<o:p></o:p><o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p><o:p></o:p>

<pre style='margin-left:.5in'>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre

style='margin-left:.5in'>To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org<o:p></o:p></pre><pre

style='margin-left:.5in'>To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote>

</div>

<pre style='margin-left:.5in'>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre

style='margin-left:.5in'>To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org<o:p></o:p></pre><pre

style='margin-left:.5in'>To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote>

</div>

 

 

Alex Zeisberg 

For all your sound needs... 

IFAF Studios 

503-626-0114<o:p></o:p>

__________________________________________________ 

Do You Yahoo!? 

Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 

http://mail.yahoo.com <o:p></o:p>

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------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C51819.151E6650--

Thom Schoenborn

2005-02-21

OK, since a few other people have brought up the field size, I feel OK

about chiming in, even though I'm but a mere 5 pup. Please feel free to

ignore...

If there are going to be those kind of numbers at the other road races

this year, maybe each category can have its own field? Can the fields

be broken up on race day at a race director's discretion? I mean 83 cat

5s? Wow! If half that 3/4 field were 4s, that means, potentially, the

first 4/5 race of the year could see a field of 134? Is that big?

(Seriously, I have no idea.) From the way everyone speaks about how

twitchy us newbies are, maybe 134 4/5s barreling toward the finish

isn't a great idea...

I've heard people talk about OBRA's phenomenal growth this year, which

is to be commended. But maybe someone with more brains and experience

than I knows how that growth might translate to field size at races.

Anyway, a total newbie's view...

TS

On Feb 21, 2005, at 9:02 AM, Andy Vaughn wrote:

I spoke with Dave Varoujean (one of the riders involved in the

accident-broken collarbone & bike) last night at the ER and tried to

get his input on why it all happened. It seems as though the field

size of the 3/4's (as was mentioned) was quite large for a

mixed-categor field, and also that it was quite dangerous with a

straight, flat finish to not have the road fully opened even earlier.

People started winding up their sprint (excited 3's and 4's who wanted

to win a pack sprint) way far out, and only having one lane to do so

made it extra chaotic. I also heard that a car was directed onto the

road coming the opposite direction, and passed them when they were

appx. at the 500m mark - still quite dangerous when 3's and 4's are

starting to sprint from way out there. So, it seems that a safer

finish is in order. The longer, hillier road races usually split the

pack more - making it safer; some races have uphill finishes - making

it slower and more deliberate; National races sometimes open up the

road earlier; sometimes field sizes are limited to lower numbers: I

know that we had a guy wreck at 50 mph in the Cascade Classic 3/4 race

last year in a field of 100+ riders. At the Banana Belt race last

year, it seemed like the wreck was caused due to a large intact field

coming in to a narrow downhill sprint - all the danger components

involved - something needs to be ensured to prevent that to happen

again.

Let's all wish Dave and the other riders a complete and speedy

recovery!

Andy Vaughn

OSU Cycling

mtnr-@hotmail.com

http://www.avcycling.com/

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

alex zeisberg

2005-02-21

--0-228916965-1109018230=:20023

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

I think that we should have the full road to sprint in and i think that there should be huge signs over the road that say "FINISH". I didnt really understand where the finish was at cherry pie or jackfrost but whatever thats my fault, but i do think it would help to have a huge sign. I also like to idea of spliting up the 3's and the 4's next year. It was a really large group for one lane.

I do want to say that the race was alot alot of fun and i learned soooo much racing with the 3's(im a 4). Thanks so much for throwing that race it was AWESOME!

Good luck to everyone racing and get well soon to the people that got hurt at the race.

Alex Zeisberg

andrew barrett <barrett-@msn.com> wrote:

st1\:* { BEHAVIOR: url(#default#ieooui)}I agree we need a system to clearly communicate to the riders from the official's

car in these unfortunate situations.

In the 1,2,3 field I heard that we would only have one lane and (I think) something

about an "early finish." The problem with "early finish" is where exactly?

A flag or paddle or sign from the car that would indicate the finish has been moved

to the 200m mark (1st choice) or the 1k mark (2nd choice) would have made this

more clear. I would leave it to the experts to determine the best way to

communicate this and how to get officials into position at the new finish line.

The suggestions for next year from Norman Babcock and Nancy Waggoner to spread

out the various groups expected finish times sound like a good way to tackle this as

well.

I don?t think hill-top finishes or asking "non-sprinters" to stay out of the way will

effectively address the problem.

As all ways, many thanks to the promoters and officials for making this all possible.

Regards.

Andrew Barrett

----- Original Message -----

From: Candi Murray

To: ob-@topica.com

Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 7:37 AM

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Cherry Pie - input?

So there was a crash in the very large Cat 3 & 4 field about 300 meters from the finish. Four riders went down, two were injured. The ambulance and subsequent went to help. There were 3 fields still behind them finishing.

1st group behind Masters 45+ broken into 2 smalll fields from 2-10 riders. They were neutralized and all finished with the same place of the that group. Two 1st places, 6 3rd places etc.

We heard that the next group was the women. The finish line communicated to that field that the finish would be quickly moved to the 1K mark. The field was informed but obviously not the riders otb. There finish was not a problem either.

However the Cat 1,2,3 passed the women somewhere along the last 4 miles and came in aiming for the real finish. Some of the riders heard that they no longer had the full road, but it doesnot seem that they got the word on the move. Plus the move was moving 1 judge down to manual pick as the truck and camera could not get around the riders in the road/ambulance. The judge was surprised and did not get them picked. We have film that we were still trying to review at 5 pm. I am not sure what results that we will come up with.

This is the 2nd time in 12 months that we have had a crash at or very near the finish with more fields approaching. We need to develop a system of making sure the riders know what is happening. First and foremost this is JUST bike racing. When you see ambulances and bodies in the road realize that your finish will not be the most important thing on the officials mind.

It was suggested that since informing riders on the road is difficult that we come up with a paddle or flag system that the official cars hold up to signify that things need to come to a screeching halt. I am up for suggestions.

The two riders sustained collarbone/clavicle fractures degrees of severity. We all wish them a speedy return to the peleton.

Candi Murray

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.orgTo unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.orgTo unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

Alex Zeisberg

For all your sound needs...

IFAF Studios

503-626-0114

__________________________________________________

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--0-228916965-1109018230=:20023

Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

<DIV>

<DIV>I think that we should have the full road to sprint in and i think that there should be huge signs over the road that say "FINISH". I didnt really understand where the finish was at cherry pie or jackfrost but whatever thats my fault, but i do think it would help to have a huge sign. I also like to idea of spliting up the 3's and the 4's next year. It was a really large group for one lane. </DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>I do want to say that the race was alot alot of fun and i learned soooo much racing with the 3's(im a 4). Thanks so much for throwing that race it was AWESOME!</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>Good luck to everyone racing and get well soon to the people that got hurt at the race. </DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>Alex Zeisberg andrew barrett <barrett-@msn.com> wrote:</DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">

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<DIV>

<DIV>I agree we need a system to clearly communicate to the riders from the official's</DIV>

<DIV>car in these unfortunate situations.</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>In the 1,2,3 field I heard that we would only have one lane and (I think) something</DIV>

<DIV>about an "early finish." The problem with "early finish" is where exactly?</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>A flag or paddle or sign from the car that would indicate the finish has been moved</DIV>

<DIV>to the 200m mark (1st choice) or the 1k mark (2nd choice) would have made this</DIV>

<DIV>more clear. I would leave it to the experts to determine the best way to</DIV>

<DIV>communicate this and how to get officials into position at the new finish line.</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>The suggestions for next year from Norman Babcock and Nancy Waggoner to spread</DIV>

<DIV>out the various groups expected finish times sound like a good way to tackle this as</DIV>

<DIV>well.</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>I don?t think hill-top finishes or asking "non-sprinters" to stay out of the way will </DIV>

<DIV>effectively address the problem.</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>As all ways, many thanks to the promoters and officials for making this all possible.</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>Regards.</DIV>

<DIV>Andrew Barrett</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">From: <A title=mailto:cmur-@obra.org href="mailto:cmur-@obra.org">Candi Murray</A> </DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">To: <A title=mailto:ob-@topica.com href="mailto:ob-@topica.com">ob-@topica.com</A> </DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 7:37 AM</DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">Subject: [OBRA Chat] Cherry Pie - input?</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV class=Section1>

So there was a crash in the very large Cat 3 & 4 field about 300 meters from the finish. Four riders went down, two were injured. The ambulance and subsequent went to help. There were 3 fields still behind them finishing.<o:p></o:p>

1st group behind Masters 45+ broken into 2 smalll fields from 2-10 riders. They were neutralized and all finished with the same place of the that group. Two 1st places, 6 3rd places etc.<o:p></o:p>

We heard that the next group was the women. The finish line communicated to that field that the finish would be quickly moved to the 1K mark. The field was informed but obviously not the riders otb. There finish was not a problem either.<o:p></o:p>

However the Cat 1,2,3 passed the women somewhere along the last 4 miles and came in aiming for the real finish. Some of the riders heard that they no longer had the full road, but it doesnot seem that they got the word on the move. Plus the move was moving 1 judge down to manual pick as the truck and camera could not get around the riders in the road/ambulance. The judge was surprised and did not get them picked. We have film that we were still trying to review at <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:time Minute="0" Hour="17">5

pm</st1:time>. I am not sure what results that we will come up with.<o:p></o:p>

This is the 2nd time in 12 months that we have had a crash at or very near the finish with more fields approaching. We need to develop a system of making sure the riders know what is happening. First and foremost this is JUST bike racing. When you see ambulances and bodies in the road realize that your finish will not be the most important thing on the officials mind. <o:p></o:p>

It was suggested that since informing riders on the road is difficult that we come up with a paddle or flag system that the official cars hold up to signify that things need to come to a screeching halt. I am up for suggestions.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

The two riders sustained collarbone/clavicle fractures degrees of severity. We all wish them a speedy return to the peleton.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

Candi Murray<o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p></DIV><PRE>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><PRE>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV> Alex Zeisberg For all your sound needs... IFAF Studios 503-626-0114__________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

--0-228916965-1109018230=:20023--

Andy Vaughn

2005-02-21

I spoke with Dave Varoujean (one of the riders involved in the

accident-broken collarbone & bike) last night at the ER and tried to get his

input on why it all happened. It seems as though the field size of the 3/4's

(as was mentioned) was quite large for a mixed-categor field, and also that

it was quite dangerous with a straight, flat finish to not have the road

fully opened even earlier. People started winding up their sprint (excited

3's and 4's who wanted to win a pack sprint) way far out, and only having

one lane to do so made it extra chaotic. I also heard that a car was

directed onto the road coming the opposite direction, and passed them when

they were appx. at the 500m mark - still quite dangerous when 3's and 4's

are starting to sprint from way out there. So, it seems that a safer finish

is in order. The longer, hillier road races usually split the pack more -

making it safer; some races have uphill finishes - making it slower and more

deliberate; National races sometimes open up the road earlier; sometimes

field sizes are limited to lower numbers: I know that we had a guy wreck at

50 mph in the Cascade Classic 3/4 race last year in a field of 100+ riders.

At the Banana Belt race last year, it seemed like the wreck was caused due

to a large intact field coming in to a narrow downhill sprint - all the

danger components involved - something needs to be ensured to prevent that

to happen again.

Let's all wish Dave and the other riders a complete and speedy recovery!

Andy Vaughn

OSU Cycling

mtnr-@hotmail.com

http://www.avcycling.com/

andrew barrett

2005-02-21

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0080_01C5180E.0F71C450

Content-Type: text/plain;

charset="iso-8859-1"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

I agree we need a system to clearly communicate to the riders from the official's

car in these unfortunate situations.

In the 1,2,3 field I heard that we would only have one lane and (I think) something

about an "early finish." The problem with "early finish" is where exactly?

A flag or paddle or sign from the car that would indicate the finish has been moved

to the 200m mark (1st choice) or the 1k mark (2nd choice) would have made this

more clear. I would leave it to the experts to determine the best way to

communicate this and how to get officials into position at the new finish line.

The suggestions for next year from Norman Babcock and Nancy Waggoner to spread

out the various groups expected finish times sound like a good way to tackle this as

well.

I don't think hill-top finishes or asking "non-sprinters" to stay out of the way will

effectively address the problem.

As all ways, many thanks to the promoters and officials for making this all possible.

Regards.

Andrew Barrett

----- Original Message -----

From: Candi Murray<mailto:cmur-@obra.org>

To: ob-@topica.com<mailto:ob-@topica.com>

Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 7:37 AM

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Cherry Pie - input?

So there was a crash in the very large Cat 3 & 4 field about 300 meters from the finish. Four riders went down, two were injured. The ambulance and subsequent went to help. There were 3 fields still behind them finishing.

1st group behind Masters 45+ broken into 2 smalll fields from 2-10 riders. They were neutralized and all finished with the same place of the that group. Two 1st places, 6 3rd places etc.

We heard that the next group was the women. The finish line communicated to that field that the finish would be quickly moved to the 1K mark. The field was informed but obviously not the riders otb. There finish was not a problem either.

However the Cat 1,2,3 passed the women somewhere along the last 4 miles and came in aiming for the real finish. Some of the riders heard that they no longer had the full road, but it doesnot seem that they got the word on the move. Plus the move was moving 1 judge down to manual pick as the truck and camera could not get around the riders in the road/ambulance. The judge was surprised and did not get them picked. We have film that we were still trying to review at 5 pm. I am not sure what results that we will come up with.

This is the 2nd time in 12 months that we have had a crash at or very near the finish with more fields approaching. We need to develop a system of making sure the riders know what is happening. First and foremost this is JUST bike racing. When you see ambulances and bodies in the road realize that your finish will not be the most important thing on the officials mind.

It was suggested that since informing riders on the road is difficult that we come up with a paddle or flag system that the official cars hold up to signify that things need to come to a screeching halt. I am up for suggestions.



The two riders sustained collarbone/clavicle fractures degrees of severity. We all wish them a speedy return to the peleton.



Candi Murray



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

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<DIV>

<DIV>I agree we need a system to clearly communicate to the riders from the

official's</DIV>

<DIV>car in these unfortunate situations.</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>In the 1,2,3 field I heard that we would only have one lane and (I

think) something</DIV>

<DIV>about an "early finish." The problem with "early finish" is where

exactly?</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>A flag or paddle or sign from the car that would indicate the

finish has been moved</DIV>

<DIV>to the 200m mark (1st choice) or the 1k mark (2nd choice) would have made

this</DIV>

<DIV>more clear. I would leave it to the experts to determine the best way

to</DIV>

<DIV>communicate this and how to get officials into position at the new finish

line.</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>The suggestions for next year from Norman Babcock and Nancy Waggoner to

spread</DIV>

<DIV>out the various groups expected finish times sound like a good way to

tackle this as</DIV>

<DIV>well.</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>I don?t think hill-top finishes or asking "non-sprinters" to stay out of

the way will </DIV>

<DIV>effectively address the problem.</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>As all ways, many thanks to the promoters and officials for making this all

possible.</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>Regards.</DIV>

<DIV>Andrew Barrett</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr

style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">From: <A title=mailto:cmur-@obra.org

href="mailto:cmur-@obra.org">Candi Murray</A> </DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">To: <A title=mailto:ob-@topica.com

href="mailto:ob-@topica.com">ob-@topica.com</A> </DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 7:37

AM</DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">Subject: [OBRA Chat] Cherry Pie -

input?</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV class=Section1>

So there was a crash in the very

large Cat 3 & 4 field about 300 meters from the finish. Four riders went down, two were

injured. The ambulance and

subsequent went to help. There

were 3 fields still behind them finishing.<o:p></o:p>

1st group behind

Masters 45+ broken into 2 smalll fields from 2-10

riders. They were neutralized and all finished

with the same place of the that group. Two

1st places, 6 3rd places

etc.<o:p></o:p>

We heard that the next group was

the women. The finish line

communicated to that field that the finish would be quickly moved to the 1K

mark. The field was informed but

obviously not the riders otb.

There finish was not a problem either.<o:p></o:p>

However the Cat 1,2,3 passed the women somewhere along the last 4 miles and

came in aiming for the real finish.

Some of the riders heard that they no longer had the full road, but it

doesnot seem that they got the word on the move.

 Plus the move was moving 1 judge

down to manual pick as the truck and camera could not get around the riders in

the road/ambulance. The judge was

surprised and did not get them picked.

We have film that we were still trying to review at

<st1:time Hour="17" Minute="0">5 pm</st1:time>. I am not sure what results that we

will come up with.<o:p></o:p>

This is the 2nd time in

12 months that we have had a crash at or very near the finish with more fields

approaching. We need to develop a

system of making sure the riders know what is happening. First and foremost this is JUST bike

racing. When

you see ambulances and bodies in the road realize that your finish will not be

the most important thing on the officials mind. <o:p></o:p>

It was suggested that since

informing riders on the road is difficult that we come up with a paddle or

flag system that the official cars hold up to signify that things need to come

to a screeching halt. I am

up for suggestions.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

The two riders sustained collarbone/clavicle fractures degrees of

severity. We all wish them a speedy return to the

peleton.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

Candi

Murray<o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p></DIV><PRE>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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hogie-@yahoo.com

2005-02-21

I would start this out with IMHO but many of the ?tactics? or

?strategies? below are not mine, not really my opinions, and have been

used buy racers for decades so I?ll just re-hash with a few personal

observations thrown in. Changing the finish to a hill top doesn?t

prevent crashes. The 1st year of Kings Valley in the 4/5?s there was a

crash about 100m from the finish and it?s up hill for better than 1k.

100 riders, 75, 20, 10,? doesn?t make a difference either, if a rider is

overly tired, squirrelly, or not paying attention they will take any

field size down. Before I was a master I avoided this race due to field

mixing. When I was a 4 I didn?t want to race with the 3s, too fast.

When I was a 3 I didn?t want to race with the 1/2s, too fast, or the 4?s

too squirrelly. By the time I made it to a 2 I was 35 and my team races

masters so that?s were I go.

Finally sprinting (bike racing) is inherently dangerous just like the

obra release says. Though I am not an adrenaline junky flat sprint

finishes are a blast (oops opinion), it?s what I look forward to and the

biggest reason I go road racing. Take away the flat finishes and a lot

of us stay home. Like all the books, interviews, articles, Etc. say

sprint finishes are all about position, strategy, and Team Work. If you

are not a sprinter in a flat race you have 4 choices; 1 make a break

early (a lot of work), 2 attempt to solo in the last 1k or 2k (near

impossible but it?s happened), 3 lead out your team sprinter (best

choice if your team has one), 4 If your gassed Stay out of the way!

Again, not my opinion just common sense that has been written/spoken

about hundreds if not thousands of times by people much more qualified

than me.

All of this doesn?t really help for last Sunday, as I understand it the

crash happened in the chase group. Besides the original question was

how to inform the field when necessary. Now for the opinion? A Simple

color coded paddle system might work as suggested. As long as the KISS

(keep it simple stupid) system is used for people like me it should

work.

Richard Hogan

Cycle analysis

stevea-@comcast.net wrote:

Also IMHO, moving the finish line to a hill top finish for all races

would favor the smaller riders in all races and that would not be right.

Additionally, How would you do that at races like POC or OSU road race

where the entire race is pancake flat.

The real problem, as you so appropriately noted, is that nobody took the

initiative to push the pace and stretch things out.

Translation, everybody was playing the sprinters game.

I myself have allowed myself to get caught in this thinking trap when

clearly it's to my benefit to have the pace pushed even if I have to do

it myself. Reason, I don't sprint like the real sprinters and I'm going

to have a better finish just by keeping the pace high in the last 1k.

Besides, there are other tricks you can play to get a higher finish even

if you have to resort to pushing the pace yourself. Just ask Dave Ripp

who I have seen push the heck out of the pace at PIR for a good half

last lap and still get a top ten for himself. No, he didn't win, but he

did kick up the jam for his team while still preserving a respectable

finish for himself.

-----Original Message-----

From: Dave Whitlinger [mailto:david.l.w-@intel.com]

Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 8:08 AM

To: cmur-@obra.org; ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Cherry Pie - input?

IMHO..the CAT 3/4 field was too big. After the final hill, the lead

peleton was still 25 riders all riding shoulder to shoulder and wheel to

wheel without anyone taking the initiative to push the speed and string

it out. Things didn't open up until 350m out with the crash being the

outcome. Same as PIR with about half the road width. Again, IMHO, I

would suggest breaking the field into a CAT 4 and a CAT 3 field with

limits of 75 riders and/or moving the finish line to the hill top and

add another partial lap. A hill top finish would be safer for all.

A better inter-race communication system could be developed, but making

the race safer could also be something to look at. This would avoid the

need to move the finish line - which I would expect to be a non-trivial

task in the middle of a race.

Dave

   _____

From: Candi Murray [mailto:cmur-@obra.org]

Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 7:38 AM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Cherry Pie - input?

So there was a crash in the very large Cat 3 & 4 field about 300 meters

from the finish. Four riders went down, two were injured. The

ambulance and subsequent went to help. There were 3 fields still behind

them finishing.

1st group behind Masters 45+ broken into 2 smalll fields from 2-10

riders. They were neutralized and all finished with the same place of

the that group. Two 1st places, 6 3rd places etc.

We heard that the next group was the women. The finish line

communicated to that field that the finish would be quickly moved to the

1K mark. The field was informed but obviously not the riders otb.

There finish was not a problem either.

However the Cat 1,2,3 passed the women somewhere along the last 4 miles

and came in aiming for the real finish. Some of the riders heard that

they no longer had the full road, but it doesnot seem that they got the

word on the move. Plus the move was moving 1 judge down to manual pick

as the truck and camera could not get around the riders in the

road/ambulance. The judge was surprised and did not get them picked.

We have film that we were still trying to review at 5 pm. I am not sure

what results that we will come up with.

This is the 2nd time in 12 months that we have had a crash at or very

near the finish with more fields approaching. We need to develop a

system of making sure the riders know what is happening. First and

foremost this is JUST bike racing. When you see ambulances and bodies

in the road realize that your finish will not be the most important

thing on the officials mind.

It was suggested that since informing riders on the road is difficult

that we come up with a paddle or flag system that the official cars hold

up to signify that things need to come to a screeching halt.   I am up

for suggestions.

The two riders sustained collarbone/clavicle fractures degrees of

severity. We all wish them a speedy return to the peleton.

Candi Murray

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

Neil Green

2005-02-21

From what I understand, there were a few wrecks in the CAT 3/4 race. I

agree with the statements below. If you are not truly a sprinter, you

shouldn't be contesting the sprint. Clear out and let the fearless ones

fight it out. If you feel strong and want to have a go, why not go for

a solo win? Just my two cents.

Neil

stevea-@comcast.net wrote:

Also IMHO, moving the finish line to a hill top finish for all races

would favor the smaller riders in all races and that would not be right.

Additionally, How would you do that at races like POC or OSU road race

where the entire race is pancake flat.

The real problem, as you so appropriately noted, is that nobody took the

initiative to push the pace and stretch things out.

Translation, everybody was playing the sprinters game.

I myself have allowed myself to get caught in this thinking trap when

clearly it's to my benefit to have the pace pushed even if I have to do

it myself. Reason, I don't sprint like the real sprinters and I'm going

to have a better finish just by keeping the pace high in the last 1k.

Besides, there are other tricks you can play to get a higher finish even

if you have to resort to pushing the pace yourself. Just ask Dave Ripp

who I have seen push the heck out of the pace at PIR for a good half

last lap and still get a top ten for himself. No, he didn't win, but he

did kick up the jam for his team while still preserving a respectable

finish for himself.

-----Original Message-----

From: Dave Whitlinger [mailto:david.l.w-@intel.com]

Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 8:08 AM

To: cmur-@obra.org; ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Cherry Pie - input?

IMHO..the CAT 3/4 field was too big. After the final hill, the lead

peleton was still 25 riders all riding shoulder to shoulder and wheel to

wheel without anyone taking the initiative to push the speed and string

it out. Things didn't open up until 350m out with the crash being the

outcome. Same as PIR with about half the road width. Again, IMHO, I

would suggest breaking the field into a CAT 4 and a CAT 3 field with

limits of 75 riders and/or moving the finish line to the hill top and

add another partial lap. A hill top finish would be safer for all.

A better inter-race communication system could be developed, but making

the race safer could also be something to look at. This would avoid the

need to move the finish line - which I would expect to be a non-trivial

task in the middle of a race.

Dave

_____

From: Candi Murray [mailto:cmur-@obra.org]

Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 7:38 AM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Cherry Pie - input?

So there was a crash in the very large Cat 3 & 4 field about 300 meters

from the finish. Four riders went down, two were injured. The

ambulance and subsequent went to help. There were 3 fields still behind

them finishing.

1st group behind Masters 45+ broken into 2 smalll fields from 2-10

riders. They were neutralized and all finished with the same place of

the that group. Two 1st places, 6 3rd places etc.

We heard that the next group was the women. The finish line

communicated to that field that the finish would be quickly moved to the

1K mark. The field was informed but obviously not the riders otb.

There finish was not a problem either.

However the Cat 1,2,3 passed the women somewhere along the last 4 miles

and came in aiming for the real finish. Some of the riders heard that

they no longer had the full road, but it doesnot seem that they got the

word on the move. Plus the move was moving 1 judge down to manual pick

as the truck and camera could not get around the riders in the

road/ambulance. The judge was surprised and did not get them picked.

We have film that we were still trying to review at 5 pm. I am not sure

what results that we will come up with.

This is the 2nd time in 12 months that we have had a crash at or very

near the finish with more fields approaching. We need to develop a

system of making sure the riders know what is happening. First and

foremost this is JUST bike racing. When you see ambulances and bodies

in the road realize that your finish will not be the most important

thing on the officials mind.

It was suggested that since informing riders on the road is difficult

that we come up with a paddle or flag system that the official cars hold

up to signify that things need to come to a screeching halt. I am up

for suggestions.

The two riders sustained collarbone/clavicle fractures degrees of

severity. We all wish them a speedy return to the peleton.

Candi Murray

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

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stevea-@comcast.net

2005-02-21

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Also IMHO, moving the finish line to a hill top finish for all races

would favor the smaller riders in all races and that would not be right.

Additionally, How would you do that at races like POC or OSU road race

where the entire race is pancake flat.

The real problem, as you so appropriately noted, is that nobody took the

initiative to push the pace and stretch things out.

Translation, everybody was playing the sprinters game.

I myself have allowed myself to get caught in this thinking trap when

clearly it's to my benefit to have the pace pushed even if I have to do

it myself. Reason, I don't sprint like the real sprinters and I'm going

to have a better finish just by keeping the pace high in the last 1k.

Besides, there are other tricks you can play to get a higher finish even

if you have to resort to pushing the pace yourself. Just ask Dave Ripp

who I have seen push the heck out of the pace at PIR for a good half

last lap and still get a top ten for himself. No, he didn't win, but he

did kick up the jam for his team while still preserving a respectable

finish for himself.

-----Original Message-----

From: Dave Whitlinger [mailto:david.l.w-@intel.com]

Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 8:08 AM

To: cmur-@obra.org; ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Cherry Pie - input?

IMHO..the CAT 3/4 field was too big. After the final hill, the lead

peleton was still 25 riders all riding shoulder to shoulder and wheel to

wheel without anyone taking the initiative to push the speed and string

it out. Things didn't open up until 350m out with the crash being the

outcome. Same as PIR with about half the road width. Again, IMHO, I

would suggest breaking the field into a CAT 4 and a CAT 3 field with

limits of 75 riders and/or moving the finish line to the hill top and

add another partial lap. A hill top finish would be safer for all.

A better inter-race communication system could be developed, but making

the race safer could also be something to look at. This would avoid the

need to move the finish line - which I would expect to be a non-trivial

task in the middle of a race.

Dave

_____

From: Candi Murray [mailto:cmur-@obra.org]

Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 7:38 AM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Cherry Pie - input?

So there was a crash in the very large Cat 3 & 4 field about 300 meters

from the finish. Four riders went down, two were injured. The

ambulance and subsequent went to help. There were 3 fields still behind

them finishing.

1st group behind Masters 45+ broken into 2 smalll fields from 2-10

riders. They were neutralized and all finished with the same place of

the that group. Two 1st places, 6 3rd places etc.

We heard that the next group was the women. The finish line

communicated to that field that the finish would be quickly moved to the

1K mark. The field was informed but obviously not the riders otb.

There finish was not a problem either.

However the Cat 1,2,3 passed the women somewhere along the last 4 miles

and came in aiming for the real finish. Some of the riders heard that

they no longer had the full road, but it doesnot seem that they got the

word on the move. Plus the move was moving 1 judge down to manual pick

as the truck and camera could not get around the riders in the

road/ambulance. The judge was surprised and did not get them picked.

We have film that we were still trying to review at 5 pm. I am not sure

what results that we will come up with.

This is the 2nd time in 12 months that we have had a crash at or very

near the finish with more fields approaching. We need to develop a

system of making sure the riders know what is happening. First and

foremost this is JUST bike racing. When you see ambulances and bodies

in the road realize that your finish will not be the most important

thing on the officials mind.

It was suggested that since informing riders on the road is difficult

that we come up with a paddle or flag system that the official cars hold

up to signify that things need to come to a screeching halt. I am up

for suggestions.

The two riders sustained collarbone/clavicle fractures degrees of

severity. We all wish them a speedy return to the peleton.

Candi Murray

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

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<DIV>Also

IMHO, moving the finish line to a hill top finish for all races would favor the

smaller riders in all races and that would not be right. Additionally, How would

you do that at races like POC or OSU road race where the entire race is pancake

flat.</DIV>

<DIV>The

real problem, as you so appropriately noted, is that nobody took the initiative

to push the pace and stretch things out. </DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>Translation, everybody was playing the sprinters game.

</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>I

myself have allowed myself to get caught in this thinking trap when clearly it's

to my benefit to have the pace pushed even if I have to do it myself. Reason, I

don't sprint like the real sprinters and I'm going to have a better finish just

by keeping the pace high in the last 1k. Besides, there are other tricks you can

play to get a higher finish even if you have to resort to pushing the pace

yourself. Just ask Dave Ripp who I have seen push the heck out of the pace at

PIR for a good half last lap and still get a top ten for himself. No, he

didn't win, but he did kick up the jam for his team while still preserving a

respectable finish for himself.</DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>-----Original Message----- From: Dave Whitlinger

[mailto:david.l.w-@intel.com] Sent: Monday, February 21,

2005 8:08 AM To: cmur-@obra.org;

ob-@topica.com Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Cherry Pie -

input? </DIV>

<DIV class=Section1>

IMHO….the CAT 3/4

field was too big. After the final hill, the lead peleton was still 25

riders all riding shoulder to shoulder and wheel to wheel without anyone

taking the initiative to push the speed and string it out. Things didn’t

open up until 350m out with the crash being the outcome. Same as PIR

with about half the road width. Again, IMHO, I would suggest breaking

the field into a CAT 4 and a CAT 3 field with limits of 75 riders and/or

moving the finish line to the hill top and add another partial lap. A

hill top finish would be safer for all…<o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

A better inter-race

communication system could be developed, but making the race safer could also

be something to look at. This would avoid the need to move the finish

line - which I would expect to be a non-trivial task in the middle of a

race.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

Dave<o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

<DIV>

<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center>

<HR tabIndex=-1 align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>

</DIV>

From: Candi

Murray [mailto:<st1:PersonName

style="BACKGROUND-POSITION: left bottom; BACKGROUND-IMAGE: url(res://ietag.dll/#34/#1001); BACKGROUND-REPEAT: repeat-x"

w:st="on">cmur-@obra.org</st1:PersonName>] Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 7:38

AM To: <st1:PersonName

style="BACKGROUND-POSITION: left bottom; BACKGROUND-IMAGE: url(res://ietag.dll/#34/#1001); BACKGROUND-REPEAT: repeat-x"

w:st="on">ob-@topica.com</st1:PersonName> Subject: [OBRA Chat] Cherry Pie -

input?<o:p></o:p></DIV>

<o:p> </o:p>

So there was a crash in the very

large Cat 3 & 4 field about 300 meters from the finish. Four riders

went down, two were injured. The ambulance and subsequent went to

help. There were 3 fields still behind them

finishing.<o:p></o:p>

1st group behind

Masters 45+ broken into 2 smalll fields from 2-10 riders. They were

neutralized and all finished with the same place of the that group. Two

1st places, 6 3rd places

etc.<o:p></o:p>

We heard that the next group was

the women. The finish line communicated to that field that the finish

would be quickly moved to the 1K mark. The field was informed but

obviously not the riders otb. There finish was not a problem

either.<o:p></o:p>

However the Cat 1,2,3 passed the

women somewhere along the last 4 miles and came in aiming for the real

finish. Some of the riders heard that they no longer had the full road,

but it doesnot seem that they got the word on the move. Plus the move

was moving 1 judge down to manual pick as the truck and camera could not get

around the riders in the road/ambulance. The judge was surprised and did

not get them picked. We have film that we were still trying to review at

<st1:time w:st="on" Minute="0" Hour="17">5 pm</st1:time>. I am not sure

what results that we will come up with.<o:p></o:p>

This is the 2nd time in

12 months that we have had a crash at or very near the finish with more fields

approaching. We need to develop a system of making sure the riders know

what is happening. First and foremost this is JUST bike racing.

When you see ambulances and bodies in the road realize that your finish will

not be the most important thing on the officials mind.

<o:p></o:p>

It was suggested that since

informing riders on the road is difficult that we come up with a paddle or

flag system that the official cars hold up to signify that things need to come

to a screeching halt. I am up for

suggestions.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

The two riders sustained

collarbone/clavicle fractures degrees of severity. We all wish them a speedy

return to the peleton.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

Candi

Murray<o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p><PRE>To respond to the whole group send to <st1:PersonName style="BACKGROUND-POSITION: left bottom; BACKGROUND-IMAGE: url(res://ietag.dll/#34/#1001); BACKGROUND-REPEAT: repeat-x" w:st="on">ob-@topica.com</st1:PersonName>.<o:p></o:p></PRE><PRE>To respond to the list manager send to <st1:PersonName style="BACKGROUND-POSITION: left bottom; BACKGROUND-IMAGE: url(res://ietag.dll/#34/#1001); BACKGROUND-REPEAT: repeat-x" w:st="on">cmur-@obra.org</st1:PersonName><o:p></o:p></PRE><PRE>To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com<o:p></o:p></PRE><PRE>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

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2n-@comcast.net

2005-02-21

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Your IMHO is good, and I was thinking about making the race safer and better as I was trying to go to sleep last night.

Pulling out the cat 5 and giving them their own race helped this year, and this is what I am considering for next year.

For the 10:00 race:

Cat 4 men (2 laps)

Cat 5 men (one lap)

Cat 5 Masters Men (one lap)

Fixed (one lap)

Women 4 (one lap)

Junior fields

For the 12:00 race

Men cat 1,2 (three laps)

Cat 3 (two laps)

Masters 35+ 45+ (two laps)

Women, Masters 35+ 45+, and 1,2,3 (two laps)

The one lap fields would finish an hour ahead of the next race, the cat 4 field would finish about the same time as the 12:00 race, and be clear of the course by the time the cat 1,2 field starts.

OBRA and Oregon Racing just keeps getting better and better, and a huge thanks to all of you who raced and helped. The Chief Official and Judge worked on results till way late, and struggled with exactly the best way to handle the confusion from the crash and ambulance in the middle of the road for the hotly contested finish.

Norman Babcock Promoter

Nancy Waggoner Registration

EWEB Windpower Cycling Team

--NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_2716_1109003222_0

Content-Type: message/rfc822

From: Dave Whitlinger <david.l.w-@intel.com>

To: cmur-@obra.org, ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Cherry Pie - input?

Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 16:09:04 +0000

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IMHO....the CAT 3/4 field was too big. After the final hill, the lead

peleton was still 25 riders all riding shoulder to shoulder and wheel to

wheel without anyone taking the initiative to push the speed and string

it out. Things didn't open up until 350m out with the crash being the

outcome. Same as PIR with about half the road width. Again, IMHO, I

would suggest breaking the field into a CAT 4 and a CAT 3 field with

limits of 75 riders and/or moving the finish line to the hill top and

add another partial lap. A hill top finish would be safer for all...

A better inter-race communication system could be developed, but making

the race safer could also be something to look at. This would avoid the

need to move the finish line - which I would expect to be a non-trivial

task in the middle of a race.

Dave

________________________________

From: Candi Murray [mailto:cmur-@obra.org]

Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 7:38 AM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Cherry Pie - input?

So there was a crash in the very large Cat 3 & 4 field about 300 meters

from the finish. Four riders went down, two were injured. The

ambulance and subsequent went to help. There were 3 fields still behind

them finishing.

1st group behind Masters 45+ broken into 2 smalll fields from 2-10

riders. They were neutralized and all finished with the same place of

the that group. Two 1st places, 6 3rd places etc.

We heard that the next group was the women. The finish line

communicated to that field that the finish would be quickly moved to the

1K mark. The field was informed but obviously not the riders otb.

There finish was not a problem either.

However the Cat 1,2,3 passed the women somewhere along the last 4 miles

and came in aiming for the real finish. Some of the riders heard that

they no longer had the full road, but it doesnot seem that they got the

word on the move. Plus the move was moving 1 judge down to manual pick

as the truck and camera could not get around the riders in the

road/ambulance. The judge was surprised and did not get them picked.

We have film that we were still trying to review at 5 pm. I am not sure

what results that we will come up with.

This is the 2nd time in 12 months that we have had a crash at or very

near the finish with more fields approaching. We need to develop a

system of making sure the riders know what is happening. First and

foremost this is JUST bike racing. When you see ambulances and bodies

in the road realize that your finish will not be the most important

thing on the officials mind.

It was suggested that since informing riders on the road is difficult

that we come up with a paddle or flag system that the official cars hold

up to signify that things need to come to a screeching halt. I am up

for suggestions.

The two riders sustained collarbone/clavicle fractures degrees of

severity. We all wish them a speedy return to the peleton.

Candi Murray

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

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<div class=Section1>

IMHO….the CAT 3/4 field was too big.

After the final hill, the lead peleton was still 25 riders all riding shoulder

to shoulder and wheel to wheel without anyone taking the initiative to push the

speed and string it out. Things didn’t open up until 350m out with

the crash being the outcome. Same as PIR with about half the road width.

Again, IMHO, I would suggest breaking the field into a CAT 4 and a CAT 3 field

with limits of 75 riders and/or moving the finish line to the hill top and add another

partial lap. A hill top finish would be safer for all…<o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

A better inter-race communication system

could be developed, but making the race safer could also be something to look

at. This would avoid the need to move the finish line - which I would

expect to be a non-trivial task in the middle of a race.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

Dave<o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

<div>

<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'>

<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>

</div>

From: Candi Murray

[mailto:<st1:PersonName w:st="on">cmur-@obra.org</st1:PersonName>] 

Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005

7:38 AM 

To: <st1:PersonName w:st="on">ob-@topica.com</st1:PersonName> 

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Cherry Pie -

input?<o:p></o:p>

</div>

<o:p> </o:p>

So there was a crash in the very large Cat 3 & 4 field

about 300 meters from the finish. Four riders went down, two were

injured. The ambulance and subsequent went to help. There were 3

fields still behind them finishing.<o:p></o:p>

1st group behind Masters 45+ broken into 2 smalll

fields from 2-10 riders. They were neutralized and all finished with the

same place of the that group. Two 1st places, 6 3rd

places etc.<o:p></o:p>

We heard that the next group was the women. The finish

line communicated to that field that the finish would be quickly moved to the

1K mark. The field was informed but obviously not the riders otb.

There finish was not a problem either.<o:p></o:p>

However the Cat 1,2,3 passed the women somewhere along the

last 4 miles and came in aiming for the real finish. Some of the riders

heard that they no longer had the full road, but it doesnot seem that they got

the word on the move. Plus the move was moving 1 judge down to manual

pick as the truck and camera could not get around the riders in the

road/ambulance. The judge was surprised and did not get them

picked. We have film that we were still trying to review at <st1:time

Hour="17" Minute="0" w:st="on">5 pm</st1:time>. I am not sure what

results that we will come up with.<o:p></o:p>

This is the 2nd time in 12 months that we have

had a crash at or very near the finish with more fields approaching. We

need to develop a system of making sure the riders know what is

happening. First and foremost this is JUST bike racing. When you

see ambulances and bodies in the road realize that your finish will not be the

most important thing on the officials mind. <o:p></o:p>

It was suggested that since informing riders on the road is

difficult that we come up with a paddle or flag system that the official cars

hold up to signify that things need to come to a screeching halt. I

am up for suggestions.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

The two riders sustained collarbone/clavicle fractures

degrees of severity. We all wish them a speedy return to the peleton.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

Candi Murray<o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

<pre>To respond to the whole group send to <st1:PersonName

w:st="on">ob-@topica.com</st1:PersonName>.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>To respond to the list manager send to <st1:PersonName

w:st="on">cmur-@obra.org</st1:PersonName><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

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Whitlinger, David L

2005-02-21

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IMHO....the CAT 3/4 field was too big. After the final hill, the lead

peleton was still 25 riders all riding shoulder to shoulder and wheel to

wheel without anyone taking the initiative to push the speed and string

it out. Things didn't open up until 350m out with the crash being the

outcome. Same as PIR with about half the road width. Again, IMHO, I

would suggest breaking the field into a CAT 4 and a CAT 3 field with

limits of 75 riders and/or moving the finish line to the hill top and

add another partial lap. A hill top finish would be safer for all...

A better inter-race communication system could be developed, but making

the race safer could also be something to look at. This would avoid the

need to move the finish line - which I would expect to be a non-trivial

task in the middle of a race.

Dave

________________________________

From: Candi Murray [mailto:cmur-@obra.org]

Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 7:38 AM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Cherry Pie - input?

So there was a crash in the very large Cat 3 & 4 field about 300 meters

from the finish. Four riders went down, two were injured. The

ambulance and subsequent went to help. There were 3 fields still behind

them finishing.

1st group behind Masters 45+ broken into 2 smalll fields from 2-10

riders. They were neutralized and all finished with the same place of

the that group. Two 1st places, 6 3rd places etc.

We heard that the next group was the women. The finish line

communicated to that field that the finish would be quickly moved to the

1K mark. The field was informed but obviously not the riders otb.

There finish was not a problem either.

However the Cat 1,2,3 passed the women somewhere along the last 4 miles

and came in aiming for the real finish. Some of the riders heard that

they no longer had the full road, but it doesnot seem that they got the

word on the move. Plus the move was moving 1 judge down to manual pick

as the truck and camera could not get around the riders in the

road/ambulance. The judge was surprised and did not get them picked.

We have film that we were still trying to review at 5 pm. I am not sure

what results that we will come up with.

This is the 2nd time in 12 months that we have had a crash at or very

near the finish with more fields approaching. We need to develop a

system of making sure the riders know what is happening. First and

foremost this is JUST bike racing. When you see ambulances and bodies

in the road realize that your finish will not be the most important

thing on the officials mind.

It was suggested that since informing riders on the road is difficult

that we come up with a paddle or flag system that the official cars hold

up to signify that things need to come to a screeching halt. I am up

for suggestions.

The two riders sustained collarbone/clavicle fractures degrees of

severity. We all wish them a speedy return to the peleton.

Candi Murray

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

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IMHO….the CAT 3/4 field was too big.

After the final hill, the lead peleton was still 25 riders all riding shoulder

to shoulder and wheel to wheel without anyone taking the initiative to push the

speed and string it out. Things didn’t open up until 350m out with

the crash being the outcome. Same as PIR with about half the road width.

Again, IMHO, I would suggest breaking the field into a CAT 4 and a CAT 3 field

with limits of 75 riders and/or moving the finish line to the hill top and add another

partial lap. A hill top finish would be safer for all…<o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

A better inter-race communication system

could be developed, but making the race safer could also be something to look

at. This would avoid the need to move the finish line - which I would

expect to be a non-trivial task in the middle of a race.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

Dave<o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

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<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'>

<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>

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From: Candi Murray

[mailto:<st1:PersonName w:st="on">cmur-@obra.org</st1:PersonName>] 

Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005

7:38 AM 

To: <st1:PersonName w:st="on">ob-@topica.com</st1:PersonName> 

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Cherry Pie -

input?<o:p></o:p>

</div>

<o:p> </o:p>

So there was a crash in the very large Cat 3 & 4 field

about 300 meters from the finish. Four riders went down, two were

injured. The ambulance and subsequent went to help. There were 3

fields still behind them finishing.<o:p></o:p>

1st group behind Masters 45+ broken into 2 smalll

fields from 2-10 riders. They were neutralized and all finished with the

same place of the that group. Two 1st places, 6 3rd

places etc.<o:p></o:p>

We heard that the next group was the women. The finish

line communicated to that field that the finish would be quickly moved to the

1K mark. The field was informed but obviously not the riders otb.

There finish was not a problem either.<o:p></o:p>

However the Cat 1,2,3 passed the women somewhere along the

last 4 miles and came in aiming for the real finish. Some of the riders

heard that they no longer had the full road, but it doesnot seem that they got

the word on the move. Plus the move was moving 1 judge down to manual

pick as the truck and camera could not get around the riders in the

road/ambulance. The judge was surprised and did not get them

picked. We have film that we were still trying to review at <st1:time

Hour="17" Minute="0" w:st="on">5 pm</st1:time>. I am not sure what

results that we will come up with.<o:p></o:p>

This is the 2nd time in 12 months that we have

had a crash at or very near the finish with more fields approaching. We

need to develop a system of making sure the riders know what is

happening. First and foremost this is JUST bike racing. When you

see ambulances and bodies in the road realize that your finish will not be the

most important thing on the officials mind. <o:p></o:p>

It was suggested that since informing riders on the road is

difficult that we come up with a paddle or flag system that the official cars

hold up to signify that things need to come to a screeching halt. I

am up for suggestions.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

The two riders sustained collarbone/clavicle fractures

degrees of severity. We all wish them a speedy return to the peleton.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

Candi Murray<o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

<pre>To respond to the whole group send to <st1:PersonName

w:st="on">ob-@topica.com</st1:PersonName>.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>To respond to the list manager send to <st1:PersonName

w:st="on">cmur-@obra.org</st1:PersonName><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>

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Candi Murray

2005-02-21

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So there was a crash in the very large Cat 3 & 4 field about 300 meters

from the finish. Four riders went down, two were injured. The

ambulance and subsequent went to help. There were 3 fields still behind

them finishing.

1st group behind Masters 45+ broken into 2 smalll fields from 2-10

riders. They were neutralized and all finished with the same place of

the that group. Two 1st places, 6 3rd places etc.

We heard that the next group was the women. The finish line

communicated to that field that the finish would be quickly moved to the

1K mark. The field was informed but obviously not the riders otb.

There finish was not a problem either.

However the Cat 1,2,3 passed the women somewhere along the last 4 miles

and came in aiming for the real finish. Some of the riders heard that

they no longer had the full road, but it doesnot seem that they got the

word on the move. Plus the move was moving 1 judge down to manual pick

as the truck and camera could not get around the riders in the

road/ambulance. The judge was surprised and did not get them picked.

We have film that we were still trying to review at 5 pm. I am not sure

what results that we will come up with.

This is the 2nd time in 12 months that we have had a crash at or very

near the finish with more fields approaching. We need to develop a

system of making sure the riders know what is happening. First and

foremost this is JUST bike racing. When you see ambulances and bodies

in the road realize that your finish will not be the most important

thing on the officials mind.

It was suggested that since informing riders on the road is difficult

that we come up with a paddle or flag system that the official cars hold

up to signify that things need to come to a screeching halt. I am up

for suggestions.

The two riders sustained collarbone/clavicle fractures degrees of

severity. We all wish them a speedy return to the peleton.

Candi Murray

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So there was a crash in the very large Cat 3 & 4 field

about 300 meters from the finish. Four riders went down, two were

injured. The ambulance and

subsequent went to help. There were

3 fields still behind them finishing.<o:p></o:p>

1st group behind Masters

45+ broken into 2 smalll fields from 2-10 riders. They were neutralized and all finished

with the same place of the that group. Two 1st

places, 6 3rd places etc.<o:p></o:p>

We heard that the next group was the women. The finish line communicated to that

field that the finish would be quickly moved to the 1K mark. The field was informed but obviously not

the riders otb. There finish was not a problem either.<o:p></o:p>

However the Cat 1,2,3 passed the

women somewhere along the last 4 miles and came in aiming for the real

finish. Some of the riders heard

that they no longer had the full road, but it doesnot

seem that they got the word on the move. Plus the move was moving 1 judge down to manual

pick as the truck and camera could not get around the riders in the road/ambulance. The judge was surprised and did not get

them picked. We have film that we

were still trying to review at <st1:time Hour="17" Minute="0">5 pm</st1:time>. I am not sure what results that we will

come up with.<o:p></o:p>

This is the 2nd time in 12 months that we have

had a crash at or very near the finish with more fields approaching. We need to develop a system of making

sure the riders know what is happening.

First and foremost this is JUST bike racing. When you see

ambulances and bodies in the road realize that your finish will not be the most

important thing on the officials mind. <o:p></o:p>

It was suggested that since informing riders on the road is

difficult that we come up with a paddle or flag system that the official cars

hold up to signify that things need to come to a screeching halt. I am up for suggestions.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

The two riders sustained

collarbone/clavicle fractures degrees of severity. We all wish them a speedy

return to the peleton.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

Candi Murray<o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

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