OBRA: OBRA Chat: Upgrade Rules

Gordon Cumming

2007-09-24

Steve,
I did not say I was right, it is just a possible interpretation of the rules. Ask Candi she'll give your a official OBRA interpretation.
Gordie
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Long, Steve"
> Okay, I think I'm getting it. I really haven't had many points in the
> Master's 1/2/3 races, a few, but have had many points in 50+ races.
> Therefore, I don't get upgraded due to the Master's 1/2/3 races, which
> has nothing to do with the Master's 50+ races.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gordon Cumming [mailto:tioflaco@comcast.net]
> Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 10:08 AM
> To: Long, Steve; David Root; kristinw@gmail.com
> Cc: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Upgrade rules
>
> Steve,
> This is why OBRA holds an annual meeting with the ability to make
> changes to the rules. Maybe what points are used to determine
> upgrade/downgrade need to be clearly outlined. Make a proposal for the
> annual meeting and bring it forth.
>
> It might be safe to make a broad assumption that OBRA is using their
> familiarity with a rider's ability when determining who to
> upgrade/downgrade.
>
> Maybe it is their feeling/judgement that having a significant group of
> 50+ riders in the cat. 2 field is not in the best interest of the field
> as a whole, thus you don't get upgraded.
>
> As for your second comment, again the rule appears to suggest that you
> should likely not be downgraded due to your good results.
>
> Generally I dont' think rules are completely concrete. Some latitude
> needs to be given to the OBRA officials to exercise some independent
> judgement.
>
> Gordie
> -------------- Original message ----------------------
> From: "Long, Steve"
> > I've never heard of anyone being upgraded based on Master's points.
> > Shoot, if that were to happen, a bunch of us 50+ guys would have to go
>
> > to CAT 2's and nobody has said anything about making us 2's.
> >
> > By the same token, many of us have had good results this year and that
>
> > would and should keep us from downgrading to the CAT 4.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org]
> > On Behalf Of David Root
> > Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 8:47 AM
> > To: kristinw@gmail.com
> > Cc: obra@list.obra.org
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Upgrade rules
> >
> > What about the fact that Upgrades are being issued based upon Masters
> > race points? I see nothing in the rules that include masters points
> > for upgrading yet they are being used. Makes no sense. I know that
> > this is going to ruffel some feathers but this is not a practice in
> USA CYCLING.
> > I thought that we are trying to follow as close as possible to the
> > same guidelines. So as long as I am a OBRA racer I will eternally be a
>
> > 2 even though I don't even come close to that ablity level.
> >
> > Kristin wrote:
> > > Since we're talking upgrade/downgrade, I'm curious about the rules
> > > about upgrading in cross and MTB. I don't see any rules on that page
>
> > > for those types of races. I have raced beginner women in cross and
> > > both beginner and sport in mtb, but I'm not sure at which point I
> > > should move up.
> > > Kristin
> > > On 9/24/07, Gordie Cumming wrote:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> It also does not say that a rider WILL be downgraded, but MAY ELECT
>
> > >> to be downgraded. The central meaning here being that it is up to
> > >> the rider as to whether they will downgrade or not. It does not
> > appear to be mandatory.
> > >>
> > >> Gordie
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ________________________________
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> > >> [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org]
> > >> On Behalf Of Long, Steve
> > >> Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 7:49 AM
> > >> To: David Root; Jason Shucker; obra@list.obra.org
> > >>
> > >> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Sal - Kenji - & the Murrays
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> The upgrade and downgrade rules are posted on the OBRA website.
> > >>
> > >> http://www.obra.org/upgrade_rules.html
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Here are the downgrade guidelines:
> > >>
> > >> Downgrade Guidelines: Riders who do not score points in a 12 month
> > >> period may elect to be downgraded one category.
> > >> Riders will not be downgraded lower than Category 4.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> This implies that points earned in any category would disqualify a
> > >> rider from downgrading. This keeps people from racing only Master's
>
> > >> races and then qualifying for a downgrade.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Additionally, I see no ambiguity in these rules.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Steve
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ________________________________
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> > >> [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org]
> > >> On Behalf Of David Root
> > >> Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2007 9:42 PM
> > >> To: Jason Shucker; obra@list.obra.org
> > >> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Sal - Kenji - & the Murrays
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Jason, I tend to strongly agree about the upgrade / downgrade bias.
>
> > >> I told myself that I wasn't going to write anything about this but
> > >> I read your e-mail and I couldn't help myself.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> First off I have to say that the Murrays have done great things for
>
> > >> Cycling in Oregon.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> That being said, I think that there needs to be a more clear
> > >> standard
> >
> > >> to upgrades and downgrades.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Since I have been a OBRA racer I have seen many inconsistency's
> > >> and flaws in this current system. One example is the fact that
> > >> Candi is upgrading or denying downgrades based upon Masters race's
> > >> and Master PIR and as far as I know any type of Masters race
> > >> especially if it is
> >
> > >> a open Masters or 123 Masters race. So assuming you are a master
> > >> cat
> >
> > >> 3 and you do a masters 123 and place in the points no matter the
> > >> field size then you get upgrade points. If any dont believe me on
> > this then I have the e-mail saved
> > >> confirming this and I will repost it if nessesary. My original
> > upgrade was
> > >> also partly based on Masters points.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> In USA Cycling (USCF) they do not use such practices in
> > upgrades/downgrades.
> > >> They go according to category races and correct field sizes only
> > >> in counting towards upgrades/downgrades.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> I feel that I am partly responsible for Sal's untimely departure
> > >> because he gave me and some other racers who race mostly masters
> > >> and hadn't placed in any 1/2 races for a long time or not at all a
> > >> downgrade. I am sure he felt he was doing the right thing based
> > >> upon
> >
> > >> OBRA rules on upgrade/downgrade procedures but he was
> > >> demanded/forced
> >
> > >> to change that decision based on a personal opinion and twisting of
> > the rules.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> If this upgrading/downgrading based on Masters races is going to be
>
> > >> apart of the OBRA rules then it needs to be officially added to the
>
> > >> rule book and the Web site and not left to interpritation.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Just my humble opinion.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> David
> > >>
> > >> Jason Shucker wrote:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Hello OBRA,
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Let me start by saying this e-mail most likely will not be popular
> > >> with the majority of the list, but that's ok. I am going to say
> > >> what
> >
> > >> I think a lot of people have felt for a while now, and with the
> > >> firing of Sal, and the hiring of Kenji, I feel that now might time
> > >> to
> > bring this up.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> First off, what the Murray's have done for Oregon Cycling has been
> > >> great, and without them, we would not have one of the best, if not
> > >> the best states in the country for cycling. Their endless
> > >> dedication
> >
> > >> to our sport and our state have been a great asset to all of us,
> > >> and I have no problem thanking them for all their hard work and
> > >> efforts over the years. Thank You Murrays!!!!!
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> That being said, for anyone living south of Salem, it has become
> > >> painfully obvious to a number of us southern riders that there is a
>
> > >> HUGE bias towards Portland area riders. I won't get into specific
> > >> details, but Candi has had no problem upgrading PDX riders who
> > >> haven't "earned" their upgrade and in all honestly don't deserve to
>
> > >> be where they are. While riders in Eugene, Medford, Bend, etc all
> > >> have to get the exact number of upgrade points. I even know of a
> > >> few
> >
> > >> instances in-which a rider had the needed points, but they were not
>
> > >> upgraded because Candi did not want to. I have more examples, but
> > >> I don't want to get into details or name, names. Simply put, for
> > >> all the great things the Murray's have done for us, there has been
> > >> a blatant bias towards Portland riders and race organizers. This
> > >> was something I was hoping would change with the hiring of Sal
> > >> Collura last year. Sadly though, with his firing, it does not
> > >> appear this will change
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> For many of us, we have no clue why Sal was fired, nor did we see
> > >> any
> >
> > >> reason for his firing. Myself along with many other riders thought
>
> > >> he was doing a great job and saw nothing different with Sal helping
>
> > >> to run the show, then we did while Candi was 100% in charge.
> > >> However
> >
> > >> after one year, Sal was fired for what appears was no reason. My
> > >> thought, along with others, is that simply Sal lived in the wrong
> > >> zip
> >
> > >> code. How could someone from Springfield, OR show biased towards
> > Portland riders?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> As for Kenji, I am sure he'll do a good job, he his a smart
> > >> educated individual who is passionate about cycling. However,
> > >> aside from his great blogging skills, I fail to see what he brings
> > >> to the table that
> > Sal did not.
> > >> Sal has been a bike racer for many years, he has promoted many
> > >> successful races, he has volunteered numerous hours to OBRA, and he
>
> > >> is very passionate about cycling and OBRA. Aside from the fact he
> > >> lives outside of the 503 area code, I just don't see what he did
> > >> wrong. Can anyone fill me into to what Sal did wrong?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Thank you Sal for all your hard work, those of us in the Willamette
>
> > >> Valley appreciate you and all you do, and hopefully the fact that
> > >> you
> >
> > >> were treated in poor fashion from OBRA will not discourage you from
>
> > >> promoting all the races you provide to all of us in Valley.
> > >> Without
> > you, we would be screwed!
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Once again, Thank you to the Murray's for all your hard work and
> > >> dedication throughout the years. Regardless of my opinion, without
>
> > >> you and your efforts we would not have the opportunties we have and
>
> > >> I
> >
> > >> thank you a million times over for you dedication to us bike
> racers.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> And to Kenji A.K.A. "KMan", I know you will do a great job and help
>
> > >> lead OBRA into the future, I just hope this new job does not take
> > >> away from your blogging skills. And please remember to keep in
> > >> mind,
> >
> > >> this is the Oregon Bicycle Racing Association, not the Portland
> > >> Bicycle Racing Association. :)
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Shuck On It!
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Jason
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> PS. I know there are probably mixed opinions, but I think the
> > >> majority of those of us in OBRA feel we are owed at least some
> > >> information as to why Sal was fired.
> > >>
> > >> ________________________________
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
> > >> Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo!
> > >> Search._______________________________________________
> > >> OBRA mailing list
> > >> obra@list.obra.org
> > >> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > >> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ________________________________
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Catch up on fall's hot new shows on Yahoo! TV. Watch previews, get
> > >> listings, and more!
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> OBRA mailing list
> > >> obra@list.obra.org
> > >> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > >> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> > >>
> > >>
> > > --
> > > __________________
> > > www.runbikeswim.net
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > OBRA mailing list
> > > obra@list.obra.org
> > > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ______________________________________________________________________
> > __
> > ____________
> > Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
> > Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search
> > http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

Gary Malcolm

2007-09-24

Steve,

That makes a great deal of sense as throwing the skill and age groups
together causes a huge nightmare if those points just disappear, so it
appears that the points go to the skill group bucket.

The question remains, do 'pure' Masters points still count when won in
open skill categories?

Regards,

Gary Malcolm

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Long, Steve
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 10:47 AM
To: Gordon Cumming; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Upgrade rules

Okay, I think I'm getting it. I really haven't had many points in the
Master's 1/2/3 races, a few, but have had many points in 50+ races.
Therefore, I don't get upgraded due to the Master's 1/2/3 races, which
has nothing to do with the Master's 50+ races.

-----Original Message-----
From: Gordon Cumming [mailto:tioflaco@comcast.net]
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 10:08 AM
To: Long, Steve; David Root; kristinw@gmail.com
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Upgrade rules

Steve,
This is why OBRA holds an annual meeting with the ability to make
changes to the rules. Maybe what points are used to determine
upgrade/downgrade need to be clearly outlined. Make a proposal for the
annual meeting and bring it forth.

It might be safe to make a broad assumption that OBRA is using their
familiarity with a rider's ability when determining who to
upgrade/downgrade.

Maybe it is their feeling/judgement that having a significant group of
50+ riders in the cat. 2 field is not in the best interest of the field
as a whole, thus you don't get upgraded.

As for your second comment, again the rule appears to suggest that you
should likely not be downgraded due to your good results.

Generally I dont' think rules are completely concrete. Some latitude
needs to be given to the OBRA officials to exercise some independent
judgement.

Gordie
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Long, Steve"
> I've never heard of anyone being upgraded based on Master's points.
> Shoot, if that were to happen, a bunch of us 50+ guys would have to go

> to CAT 2's and nobody has said anything about making us 2's.
>
> By the same token, many of us have had good results this year and that

> would and should keep us from downgrading to the CAT 4.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org]
> On Behalf Of David Root
> Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 8:47 AM
> To: kristinw@gmail.com
> Cc: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Upgrade rules
>
> What about the fact that Upgrades are being issued based upon Masters
> race points? I see nothing in the rules that include masters points
> for upgrading yet they are being used. Makes no sense. I know that
> this is going to ruffel some feathers but this is not a practice in
USA CYCLING.
> I thought that we are trying to follow as close as possible to the
> same guidelines. So as long as I am a OBRA racer I will eternally be a

> 2 even though I don't even come close to that ablity level.
>
> Kristin wrote:
> > Since we're talking upgrade/downgrade, I'm curious about the rules
> > about upgrading in cross and MTB. I don't see any rules on that page

> > for those types of races. I have raced beginner women in cross and
> > both beginner and sport in mtb, but I'm not sure at which point I
> > should move up.
> > Kristin
> > On 9/24/07, Gordie Cumming wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> It also does not say that a rider WILL be downgraded, but MAY ELECT

> >> to be downgraded. The central meaning here being that it is up to
> >> the rider as to whether they will downgrade or not. It does not
> appear to be mandatory.
> >>
> >> Gordie
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ________________________________
> >>
> >>
> >> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> >> [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org]
> >> On Behalf Of Long, Steve
> >> Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 7:49 AM
> >> To: David Root; Jason Shucker; obra@list.obra.org
> >>
> >> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Sal - Kenji - & the Murrays
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> The upgrade and downgrade rules are posted on the OBRA website.
> >>
> >> http://www.obra.org/upgrade_rules.html
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Here are the downgrade guidelines:
> >>
> >> Downgrade Guidelines: Riders who do not score points in a 12 month
> >> period may elect to be downgraded one category.
> >> Riders will not be downgraded lower than Category 4.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> This implies that points earned in any category would disqualify a
> >> rider from downgrading. This keeps people from racing only Master's

> >> races and then qualifying for a downgrade.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Additionally, I see no ambiguity in these rules.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Steve
> >>
> >>
> >> ________________________________
> >>
> >>
> >> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> >> [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org]
> >> On Behalf Of David Root
> >> Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2007 9:42 PM
> >> To: Jason Shucker; obra@list.obra.org
> >> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Sal - Kenji - & the Murrays
> >>
> >>
> >> Jason, I tend to strongly agree about the upgrade / downgrade bias.

> >> I told myself that I wasn't going to write anything about this but
> >> I read your e-mail and I couldn't help myself.
> >>
> >>
> >> First off I have to say that the Murrays have done great things for

> >> Cycling in Oregon.
> >>
> >>
> >> That being said, I think that there needs to be a more clear
> >> standard
>
> >> to upgrades and downgrades.
> >>
> >>
> >> Since I have been a OBRA racer I have seen many inconsistency's
> >> and flaws in this current system. One example is the fact that
> >> Candi is upgrading or denying downgrades based upon Masters race's
> >> and Master PIR and as far as I know any type of Masters race
> >> especially if it is
>
> >> a open Masters or 123 Masters race. So assuming you are a master
> >> cat
>
> >> 3 and you do a masters 123 and place in the points no matter the
> >> field size then you get upgrade points. If any dont believe me on
> this then I have the e-mail saved
> >> confirming this and I will repost it if nessesary. My original
> upgrade was
> >> also partly based on Masters points.
> >>
> >>
> >> In USA Cycling (USCF) they do not use such practices in
> upgrades/downgrades.
> >> They go according to category races and correct field sizes only
> >> in counting towards upgrades/downgrades.
> >>
> >>
> >> I feel that I am partly responsible for Sal's untimely departure
> >> because he gave me and some other racers who race mostly masters
> >> and hadn't placed in any 1/2 races for a long time or not at all a
> >> downgrade. I am sure he felt he was doing the right thing based
> >> upon
>
> >> OBRA rules on upgrade/downgrade procedures but he was
> >> demanded/forced
>
> >> to change that decision based on a personal opinion and twisting of
> the rules.
> >>
> >>
> >> If this upgrading/downgrading based on Masters races is going to be

> >> apart of the OBRA rules then it needs to be officially added to the

> >> rule book and the Web site and not left to interpritation.
> >>
> >>
> >> Just my humble opinion.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> David
> >>
> >> Jason Shucker wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Hello OBRA,
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Let me start by saying this e-mail most likely will not be popular
> >> with the majority of the list, but that's ok. I am going to say
> >> what
>
> >> I think a lot of people have felt for a while now, and with the
> >> firing of Sal, and the hiring of Kenji, I feel that now might time
> >> to
> bring this up.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> First off, what the Murray's have done for Oregon Cycling has been
> >> great, and without them, we would not have one of the best, if not
> >> the best states in the country for cycling. Their endless
> >> dedication
>
> >> to our sport and our state have been a great asset to all of us,
> >> and I have no problem thanking them for all their hard work and
> >> efforts over the years. Thank You Murrays!!!!!
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> That being said, for anyone living south of Salem, it has become
> >> painfully obvious to a number of us southern riders that there is a

> >> HUGE bias towards Portland area riders. I won't get into specific
> >> details, but Candi has had no problem upgrading PDX riders who
> >> haven't "earned" their upgrade and in all honestly don't deserve to

> >> be where they are. While riders in Eugene, Medford, Bend, etc all
> >> have to get the exact number of upgrade points. I even know of a
> >> few
>
> >> instances in-which a rider had the needed points, but they were not

> >> upgraded because Candi did not want to. I have more examples, but
> >> I don't want to get into details or name, names. Simply put, for
> >> all the great things the Murray's have done for us, there has been
> >> a blatant bias towards Portland riders and race organizers. This
> >> was something I was hoping would change with the hiring of Sal
> >> Collura last year. Sadly though, with his firing, it does not
> >> appear this will change
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> For many of us, we have no clue why Sal was fired, nor did we see
> >> any
>
> >> reason for his firing. Myself along with many other riders thought

> >> he was doing a great job and saw nothing different with Sal helping

> >> to run the show, then we did while Candi was 100% in charge.
> >> However
>
> >> after one year, Sal was fired for what appears was no reason. My
> >> thought, along with others, is that simply Sal lived in the wrong
> >> zip
>
> >> code. How could someone from Springfield, OR show biased towards
> Portland riders?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> As for Kenji, I am sure he'll do a good job, he his a smart
> >> educated individual who is passionate about cycling. However,
> >> aside from his great blogging skills, I fail to see what he brings
> >> to the table that
> Sal did not.
> >> Sal has been a bike racer for many years, he has promoted many
> >> successful races, he has volunteered numerous hours to OBRA, and he

> >> is very passionate about cycling and OBRA. Aside from the fact he
> >> lives outside of the 503 area code, I just don't see what he did
> >> wrong. Can anyone fill me into to what Sal did wrong?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Thank you Sal for all your hard work, those of us in the Willamette

> >> Valley appreciate you and all you do, and hopefully the fact that
> >> you
>
> >> were treated in poor fashion from OBRA will not discourage you from

> >> promoting all the races you provide to all of us in Valley.
> >> Without
> you, we would be screwed!
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Once again, Thank you to the Murray's for all your hard work and
> >> dedication throughout the years. Regardless of my opinion, without

> >> you and your efforts we would not have the opportunties we have and

> >> I
>
> >> thank you a million times over for you dedication to us bike
racers.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> And to Kenji A.K.A. "KMan", I know you will do a great job and help

> >> lead OBRA into the future, I just hope this new job does not take
> >> away from your blogging skills. And please remember to keep in
> >> mind,
>
> >> this is the Oregon Bicycle Racing Association, not the Portland
> >> Bicycle Racing Association. :)
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Shuck On It!
> >>
> >>
> >> Jason
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> PS. I know there are probably mixed opinions, but I think the
> >> majority of those of us in OBRA feel we are owed at least some
> >> information as to why Sal was fired.
> >>
> >> ________________________________
> >>
> >>
> >> Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
> >> Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo!
> >> Search._______________________________________________
> >> OBRA mailing list
> >> obra@list.obra.org
> >> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> >> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >>
> >>
> >> ________________________________
> >>
> >>
> >> Catch up on fall's hot new shows on Yahoo! TV. Watch previews, get
> >> listings, and more!
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> OBRA mailing list
> >> obra@list.obra.org
> >> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> >> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >>
> >>
> > --
> > __________________
> > www.runbikeswim.net
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> __
> ____________
> Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
> Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search
> http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________
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Long, Steve