OBRA: OBRA Chat: Cyclist Hit on Cornell

Brian Engelen

2005-04-09

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I think those areas around the tunnel were paved in about 1985 when the old

wooden bridges were replaced. They also cut the road deeper into the

hillside to make it wider, prior to that the road was fairly narrow. Back

in the day, a guy I worked with had clipped mirrors with a passing truck and

he complained that there wasn't enough room for 2 trucks to pass.

Brian

-----Original Message-----

From: Bruce Werner [mailto:bruce.-@pgn.com]

Sent: Friday, April 08, 2005 6:23 PM

To: murphy_-@hotmail.com; ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Cyclist Hit on Cornell

Peter,

Thanks for your input, but I would respectfully ask you to go take a look at

the sections of paving and road construction on the bike lanes just before

and in between the tunnels outbound on Cornell. I seriously doubt that you

can tell me with a straight face that there is a structural difference on

the shoulder of the road between these specific bike lane/no bike lane

areas. As late-breaking additional support, there is a section of the

shoulder just beyond the first tunnel that for years was in much

better(perfect) shape than the roadway. I could never figure out why it was

paved because it violated the "no paving the shoulder standard", until David

Auker's email explained that he convinced someone to pave it. The difference

can't be seen now because last year they repaved this area, including the

shoulder/bike lane.

My impression is that many years ago someone made a decision to pave the

whole length of Cornell to a standard where the shoulder was not paved

unless there was a retaining wall next to the shoulder. "Before Bike

Consciousness" budget constraints also may have influenced this decision.

The unpaved bike lane sections we are refering to are obviously structurally

above those standards, but the road crews continue to "stay within the

lines", because they are following tradition. George and I are simply asking

that these well defined areas be re-evaluated and subsequently paved. I

think the response we get is due to a generalization in thinking that we are

asking for a bike lane along the whole length of Cornell, which the shoulder

in other places would obviously not support.

Thanks, Bruce

Peter Murphy <murphy_-@hotmail.com> 04/08/05 9:54 AM >>>

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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=blue face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:

12.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:blue'>I think those areas around the tunnel were

paved in about 1985 when the old wooden bridges were replaced. They also

cut the road deeper into the hillside to make it wider, prior to that the road

was fairly narrow. Back in the day, a guy I worked with had clipped

mirrors with a passing truck and he complained that there wasn’t enough

room for 2 trucks to pass. </span></font></p>

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<p class=MsoAutoSig><font size=3 color=blue face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:

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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span

style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original Message-----<br>

<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> Bruce Werner

[mailto:bruce.-@pgn.com] <br>

<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> </span></font><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>Friday, April

08, 2005</span></font><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;

font-family:Tahoma'> </span></font><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span

style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>6:23 PM</span></font><font size=2

face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><br>

<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> murphy_-@hotmail.com;

ob-@topica.com<br>

<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> RE: [OBRA Chat] Cyclist

Hit on Cornell</span></font></p>

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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span

style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>Peter,</span></font></p>

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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span

style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>Thanks for your input, but I

would respectfully ask you to go take a look at the sections of paving and road

construction on the bike lanes just before and in between the tunnels

outbound on Cornell. I seriously doubt that you can tell me with a

straight face that there is a structural difference on the shoulder of the

road between these specific bike lane/no bike lane areas. As

late-breaking additional support, there is a section of the shoulder just

beyond the first tunnel that for years was in much better(perfect) shape

than the roadway. I could never figure out why it was paved because it

violated the "no paving the shoulder standard",

until David Auker's email explained that

he convinced someone to pave it. The difference can't be seen

now because last year they repaved this area, including the shoulder/bike

lane. </span></font></p>

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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span

style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>My impression is that many years

ago someone made a decision to pave the whole length of Cornell to a

standard where the shoulder was not paved unless there was a retaining wall

next to the shoulder. "Before Bike Consciousness" budget constraints

also may have influenced this decision. The unpaved bike

lane sections we are refering to are obviously structurally above

those standards, but the road crews continue to "stay

within the lines", because they are following tradition. George and I are

simply asking that these well defined areas be re-evaluated and subsequently

paved. I think the response we get is due to a generalization in

thinking that we are asking for a bike lane along the whole length of Cornell,

which the shoulder in other places would obviously not support.</span></font></p>

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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span

style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>Thanks, Bruce</span></font></p>

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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span

style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>>> Peter Murphy

<murphy_-@hotmail.com> 04/08/05 9:54 AM >>></span></font></p>

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style='font-size:10.0pt'>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.</span></font></pre><pre

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Bruce Werner

2005-04-08

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Peter,

Thanks for your input, but I would respectfully ask you to go take a

look at the sections of paving and road construction on the bike lanes

just before and in between the tunnels outbound on Cornell. I seriously

doubt that you can tell me with a straight face that there is a

structural difference on the shoulder of the road between these specific

bike lane/no bike lane areas. As late-breaking additional support, there

is a section of the shoulder just beyond the first tunnel that for years

was in much better(perfect) shape than the roadway. I could never figure

out why it was paved because it violated the "no paving the shoulder

standard", until David Auker's email explained that he convinced someone

to pave it. The difference can't be seen now because last year they

repaved this area, including the shoulder/bike lane.

My impression is that many years ago someone made a decision to pave

the whole length of Cornell to a standard where the shoulder was not

paved unless there was a retaining wall next to the shoulder. "Before

Bike Consciousness" budget constraints also may have influenced this

decision. The unpaved bike lane sections we are refering to are

obviously structurally above those standards, but the road crews

continue to "stay within the lines", because they are following

tradition. George and I are simply asking that these well defined areas

be re-evaluated and subsequently paved. I think the response we get is

due to a generalization in thinking that we are asking for a bike lane

along the whole length of Cornell, which the shoulder in other places

would obviously not support.

Thanks, Bruce

Peter Murphy <murphy_-@hotmail.com> 04/08/05 9:54 AM >>>

Bruce,

When an engineer designs a pavement, he/she certifies that it has met

certain criteria and will last a certain duration, usuallly 20 years,

for

the design traffic volume. This certification is what we call signing

and

sealing a design. If for some reason, the pavement fails within that

20

year period without extenuating circumstances, then that engineer will

be

held liable for the "faulty design" and may lose his/her job and may

not be

allowed to practice ever again.

Now unless you have seen and analyzed the geotechnical report, which is

an

investigation of the underlying soil strength and properties, and the

pavement design report, there is no way to make the assessments that

you and

George are making. Asphalt does not "fail" suddenly, it deteriorates.

And

if it deteriorates before the design life has expired, then it has

failed.

You may think that an engineer that adheres to a standard is being

rigid and

"lacking common sense", but it is those exact standards that protect

the

public (for the most part) and the engineer. I am not willing to throw

away

6 years of college and 10 years of engineering practice, and design a

road

according to your "common sense".

I hate to see cyclists get hit by cars, but it is a big world but we

all

have to live in it, together. I hope the person that was hit is ok,

recovering and will be back on a bike soon.

Pete Murphy

From: Bruce Werner <bruce.-@pgn.com>

Reply-To: bruce.-@pgn.com

To: toka-@ix.netcom.com, ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Cyclist Hit on Cornell

Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 16:21:34 -0700

It sounds like it's time for some cycling homework:

For all those with an interest, take a ride up Cornell and check out

the bike lane. It has bike only paths around the tunnels and where

there

are retaining walls or bridges there is a bike lane. However, the

City

road engineers, in their infinite wisdom, won't connect the outbound

sections just before and in between the tunnels, and pave a

continuous

bike lane. The unpaved shoulder on the narrow sections of pavement is

generally ten feet wide and much wider where there are turnouts. In

fact, when they recently repaved the road they had to intentionally

narrow the paving so that they didn't pave a complete bike lane! The

narrow sections going uphill are very hazardous to cyclists due to

the

volume of traffic using the road during commute hours. For cyclists

riding out to the Bethany area, other routes take much longer and

have

worse hazards.

Last year George Schreck and I through e-mail tried to get Roger

Geller

to convince the road department to pave a complete lane on the narrow

sections during repaving. The response we got was that the sub-base

on

the shoulder wasn't adequate. At some point for public safety you

have

to put aside blind adherence to engineering gibberish and use common

sense. If the sub-base were inadequate on this section then the

sections

with a bike lane should also be unable to support pavement and be

crumbling, which they are not. For example, there is a section

outbound

just beyond the first tunnel which appears to not meet the sub-base

criteria which has been paved and is in perfect condition. The irony

of

this is that the recent paving is a foot or two wider than before,

and

in some sections actually creates a "mini" bike lane. Apparently the

road department violates their sub-base argument anyway when repaving.

I

fail to see the difference between one or two feet vs. four feet.

Just

exactly where does this mysterious sub-base end?

Where the cyclist was hit, even though the paving is wider, the fog

line was extended to the edge of the pavement.

Here's the assignment:

Take a ride out Cornell and see if you agree or disagree. If you

agree

let Roger Geller and anyone else with influence at the City road

department know about it. This is a short span of roadway but the

fundamental logic behind these types of decisions is used for similar

paving projects all over the City.

Thanks, Bruce

"Keith A. Prior" <toka-@ix.netcom.com> 04/06/05 2:51 PM >>>

I think that instead of blaming the driver or the cyclist or the road

department I

suggest we all step back and remember that riding a bicycle is an

inherently

dangerous thing. With

death passing us by at high speed just inches away over and over and

over

year after year after year. It is

amazing that we don't see it more often with the amount of people on

bikes

here in Portland.

Even though I am very aware of cyclists and always take measures to

slow

down and make sure they

are safe it does not mean that one day I wont accidentally take out

one

of

my two wheeled brothers or sisters.

Quite a bit can happen in a blink of an eye. Such is the folly of the

automobile.

With this said I do agree that many people in cars don't see us as

people or

fathers or mothers or sisters

but as inconveniences. That is until they hit one! Now THAT'S an

inconvenience!

-Keith

-----Original Message-----

From: Jeff Fuchs [mailto:jfu-@toast.net]

Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 2:27 PM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Cyclist Hit on Cornell

I usually try to stay out of discussion like this, but in this case,

I

think it is important to add some factual information to Mr.

Schreck's

posting.

Let me start by saying that is really unfortunte that a cyclist was

hit

by a vehicle again. Instead of blaming the City, it might be best to

determine if the driver was at fault. If so, blame the driver.

Blaming

the City is like blaming the car.

Bike lanes can be significant safety improvements but they do not

absolve the driver and cyclist of responsibilty. Bike have a legal

right

to use the road. Motorists hve a responsabilty to look out for bikes

(or

other slower moving vehicles) that share the roads.

From an engineering standpoint, the City is probably correct to say

that

in order to add a paved bike lane they need to add an aggregate

subgrade. Living in Bend, I am not familiar with the section of road,

but I do know that asphalt pavement can not be applied reliably over

a

soil base.

George is completely right to say that "some pavement could easily

survive." Some pavement most likely means that the pavement would

crumble and the bike lane would be full of large potholes and broken

pavement. I know when the bike lane is in worse condition than the

road

way, I tend to ride in the road. In my opinion, poor quality bike

lanes

are worse than no bike lanes.

By the way I a civil engineer. I also ride and race bikes.

Schreck, George wrote:

This morning between 7 and 7:20, there was a cyclist who was hit

on

N.W.

Cornell Road between the two tunnels. The bicycle was mangled

beyond

recognition and the cyclist was lying on the ground near the

ambulance.

I have no further information regarding the accident or the

condition

of

the cyclist.

This is a stretch where the city could easily place a shoulder on

the

road since there is very hard packed dirt along side. I asked the

City

to do so when they repaved the road, but was told some nonsense

that

there would need to be new road bed since there is dirt on the

side

and

not a city-engineered road bed. My position is that the dirt is

as

hard

as concrete and that some pavement could easily survive. In

addition, I

pointed out that on a bike route in a dangerous area it was better

to

take the risk of the pavement not lasting than to risk the life of

a

cyclist. Well, the City chose to risk the cyclist rather than the

pavement, and apparently the cyclist lost. I would suggest that

anyone

who rides up Cornell Road contact the City to remind it of the

risk

and

suggest that the City Road Department stop worrying about its

engineering criteria and more about safety in that area. I realize

that

Portland is good to cyclists, but sometimes the engineers get in

the

way

of common sense. Apologies to all engineers, but I work for a

utility,

and I know whereof I speak.

         George Schreck

          Phone: (503) 813-7211

           Fax: (503) 813-7190

Jeff Fuchs

Sunnyside Sports

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<DIV>Peter,</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>Thanks for your input, but I would respectfully ask you to go take a look at the sections of paving and road construction on the bike lanes just before and in between the tunnels outbound on Cornell. I seriously doubt that you can tell me with a straight face that there is a structural difference on the shoulder of the road between these specific bike lane/no bike lane areas. As late-breaking additional support, there is a section of the shoulder just beyond the first tunnel that for years was in much better(perfect) shape than the roadway. I could never figure out why it was paved because it violated the "no paving the shoulder standard", until David Auker's email explained that he convinced someone to pave it. The difference can't be seen now because last year they repaved this area, including the shoulder/bike lane. </DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>My impression is that many years ago someone made a decision to pave the whole length of Cornell to a standard where the shoulder was not paved unless there was a retaining wall next to the shoulder. "Before Bike Consciousness" budget constraints also may have influenced this decision. The unpaved bike lane sections we are refering to are obviously structurally above those standards, but the road crews continue to "stay within the lines", because they are following tradition. George and I are simply asking that these well defined areas be re-evaluated and subsequently paved. I think the response we get is due to a generalization in thinking that we are asking for a bike lane along the whole length of Cornell, which the shoulder in other places would obviously not support.</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>Thanks, Bruce</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>>> Peter Murphy <murphy_-@hotmail.com> 04/08/05 9:54 AM >>><BR></DIV>

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.David.Auker.

2005-04-08

Robert Nobles wrote:

I also ride on that stretch of Cornell twice a day.

It seems like it would be a safe and simple thing to turn some of that

flat gravel shoulder into a little wider paved bike lane.

Since Cornell is the route of the "Lawyer's Ride" once a week, it seems

like Ray Thomas, Mark Ginsberg and Co. could be a very persuasive bunch

to lobby Roger Geller and the City (how about Mulnomah County??) for

some bike-shoulder work. That route is the single most important way

for Portland cyclists to get up to Thompson and the amazing Skyline,

some of Portland's best riding (Skyline itself needs a shoulder, but

that's another topic).

Btw, I was instrumental in getting some additional paving of the

shoulder just after the 1st tunnel climbing Cornell. It was tough, as

the City bike person at that time, Chris O., was insistent that it was

actually a good plan for cyclists, after taking the route around the

tunnel, to then be forced to ride right up to the opening of the tunnel,

check it out, and make a tight little turn onto the then-narrow

shoulder. Totally a freak-out, as any motor vehicle roaring in the

tunnel, regardless of direction, would sound like it was right there,

gonna git ya. There was this vast expanse of gravel shoulder waiting

for the obvious (to any bike rider) paving of a nice way to merge onto

the road in a gradual manner, away from the tunnel, with great

visibility. I'm glad they saw the sense, and actually did the paving

(maybe the petition I circulated helped...).

I think the golden day of Portland's cyclists having a real rider's

voice in the City government was when Mia Burke was there. She's

responsible for the nifty "blue" bike safety lanes, and she actually was

a rider.

David

Robert Nobles

2005-04-08

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I should start by saying that I am not a Civil Engineer. However, I do work with them on a regular basis and coordinate their work. George Schreck is right, when pushed to engineer for the specific conditions instead of just using standardized construction details, they can make it work in a situation like this.

I also ride on that stretch of Cornell twice a day.

The decent is great and safe. Like someone said earlier; when you going 35 to 45 miles per hour you ARE traffic. I only get passed on the little "kicker" at the Audubon Society, but there are signs and speed bumps all over that section.

Yesterday on the way home I was watching the road and shoulder conditions on the climb very carefully. The irony is that the most dangerous and narrow paved sections of the climb are where there is a generous flat gravel shoulder! No steep drop off, no erosion, just flat gravel over an undisturbed natural base. It seems like it would be a safe and simple thing to turn some of that flat gravel shoulder into a little wider paved bike lane.

***The exception is between Thompson and Skyline, where it will never be safe because of all the branches and debris that fall down the slope onto the shoulder. I recommend taking Thompson to Skyline and bypass that section, though I don't always do that.

Robert Nobles

Peter Murphy <murphy_-@hotmail.com> wrote:

Bruce,

When an engineer designs a pavement, he/she certifies that it has met

certain criteria and will last a certain duration, usuallly 20 years, for

the design traffic volume. This certification is what we call signing and

sealing a design. If for some reason, the pavement fails within that 20

year period without extenuating circumstances, then that engineer will be

held liable for the "faulty design" and may lose his/her job and may not be

allowed to practice ever again.

Now unless you have seen and analyzed the geotechnical report, which is an

investigation of the underlying soil strength and properties, and the

pavement design report, there is no way to make the assessments that you and

George are making. Asphalt does not "fail" suddenly, it deteriorates. And

if it deteriorates before the design life has expired, then it has failed.

You may think that an engineer that adheres to a standard is being rigid and

"lacking common sense", but it is those exact standards that protect the

public (for the most part) and the engineer. I am not willing to throw away

6 years of college and 10 years of engineering practice, and design a road

according to your "common sense".

I hate to see cyclists get hit by cars, but it is a big world but we all

have to live in it, together. I hope the person that was hit is ok,

recovering and will be back on a bike soon.

Pete Murphy

---------------------------------

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<DIV>I should start by saying that I am not a Civil Engineer. However, I do work with them on a regular basis and coordinate their work. George Schreck is right, when pushed to engineer for the specific conditions instead of just using standardized construction details, they can make it work in a situation like this. </DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>I also ride on that stretch of Cornell twice a day.</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>The decent is great and safe. Like someone said earlier; when you going 35 to 45 miles per hour you ARE traffic. I only get passed on the little "kicker" at the Audubon Society, but there are signs and speed bumps all over that section. </DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>Yesterday on the way home I was watching the road and shoulder conditions on the climb very carefully. The irony is that the most dangerous and narrow paved sections of the climb are where there is a generous flat gravel shoulder! No steep drop off, no erosion, just flat gravel over an undisturbed natural base. It seems like it would be a safe and simple thing to turn some of that flat gravel shoulder into a little wider paved bike lane.</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>***The exception is between Thompson and Skyline, where it will never be safe because of all the branches and debris that fall down the slope onto the shoulder. I recommend taking Thompson to Skyline and bypass that section, though I don't always do that.</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>Robert Nobles<BR><BR><B><I>Peter Murphy <murphy_-@hotmail.com></I></B> wrote:</DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">Bruce,<BR><BR>When an engineer designs a pavement, he/she certifies that it has met <BR>certain criteria and will last a certain duration, usuallly 20 years, for <BR>the design traffic volume. This certification is what we call signing and <BR>sealing a design. If for some reason, the pavement fails within that 20 <BR>year period without extenuating circumstances, then that engineer will be <BR>held liable for the "faulty design" and may lose his/her job and may not be <BR>allowed to practice ever again.<BR><BR>Now unless you have seen and analyzed the geotechnical report, which is an <BR>investigation of the underlying soil strength and properties, and the <BR>pavement design report, there is no way to make the assessments that you and <BR>George are making. Asphalt does not "fail" suddenly, it deteriorates. And <BR>if it deteriorates before the design life has expired, then it has

failed.<BR><BR>You may think that an engineer that adheres to a standard is being rigid and <BR>"lacking common sense", but it is those exact standards that protect the <BR>public (for the most part) and the engineer. I am not willing to throw away <BR>6 years of college and 10 years of engineering practice, and design a road <BR>according to your "common sense".<BR><BR>I hate to see cyclists get hit by cars, but it is a big world but we all <BR>have to live in it, together. I hope the person that was hit is ok, <BR>recovering and will be back on a bike soon.<BR><BR>Pete Murphy</BLOCKQUOTE><p>

<hr size=1>Yahoo! Messenger<br>

Show us what our next emoticon should look like. <a href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=31855/*http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/emoticontest">Join the fun.</a>

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Peter Murphy

2005-04-08

Bruce,

When an engineer designs a pavement, he/she certifies that it has met

certain criteria and will last a certain duration, usuallly 20 years, for

the design traffic volume. This certification is what we call signing and

sealing a design. If for some reason, the pavement fails within that 20

year period without extenuating circumstances, then that engineer will be

held liable for the "faulty design" and may lose his/her job and may not be

allowed to practice ever again.

Now unless you have seen and analyzed the geotechnical report, which is an

investigation of the underlying soil strength and properties, and the

pavement design report, there is no way to make the assessments that you and

George are making. Asphalt does not "fail" suddenly, it deteriorates. And

if it deteriorates before the design life has expired, then it has failed.

You may think that an engineer that adheres to a standard is being rigid and

"lacking common sense", but it is those exact standards that protect the

public (for the most part) and the engineer. I am not willing to throw away

6 years of college and 10 years of engineering practice, and design a road

according to your "common sense".

I hate to see cyclists get hit by cars, but it is a big world but we all

have to live in it, together. I hope the person that was hit is ok,

recovering and will be back on a bike soon.

Pete Murphy

From: Bruce Werner <bruce.-@pgn.com>

Reply-To: bruce.-@pgn.com

To: toka-@ix.netcom.com, ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Cyclist Hit on Cornell

Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 16:21:34 -0700

It sounds like it's time for some cycling homework:

For all those with an interest, take a ride up Cornell and check out

the bike lane. It has bike only paths around the tunnels and where there

are retaining walls or bridges there is a bike lane. However, the City

road engineers, in their infinite wisdom, won't connect the outbound

sections just before and in between the tunnels, and pave a continuous

bike lane. The unpaved shoulder on the narrow sections of pavement is

generally ten feet wide and much wider where there are turnouts. In

fact, when they recently repaved the road they had to intentionally

narrow the paving so that they didn't pave a complete bike lane! The

narrow sections going uphill are very hazardous to cyclists due to the

volume of traffic using the road during commute hours. For cyclists

riding out to the Bethany area, other routes take much longer and have

worse hazards.

Last year George Schreck and I through e-mail tried to get Roger Geller

to convince the road department to pave a complete lane on the narrow

sections during repaving. The response we got was that the sub-base on

the shoulder wasn't adequate. At some point for public safety you have

to put aside blind adherence to engineering gibberish and use common

sense. If the sub-base were inadequate on this section then the sections

with a bike lane should also be unable to support pavement and be

crumbling, which they are not. For example, there is a section outbound

just beyond the first tunnel which appears to not meet the sub-base

criteria which has been paved and is in perfect condition. The irony of

this is that the recent paving is a foot or two wider than before, and

in some sections actually creates a "mini" bike lane. Apparently the

road department violates their sub-base argument anyway when repaving. I

fail to see the difference between one or two feet vs. four feet. Just

exactly where does this mysterious sub-base end?

Where the cyclist was hit, even though the paving is wider, the fog

line was extended to the edge of the pavement.

Here's the assignment:

Take a ride out Cornell and see if you agree or disagree. If you agree

let Roger Geller and anyone else with influence at the City road

department know about it. This is a short span of roadway but the

fundamental logic behind these types of decisions is used for similar

paving projects all over the City.

Thanks, Bruce

"Keith A. Prior" <toka-@ix.netcom.com> 04/06/05 2:51 PM >>>

I think that instead of blaming the driver or the cyclist or the road

department I

suggest we all step back and remember that riding a bicycle is an

inherently

dangerous thing. With

death passing us by at high speed just inches away over and over and

over

year after year after year. It is

amazing that we don't see it more often with the amount of people on

bikes

here in Portland.

Even though I am very aware of cyclists and always take measures to

slow

down and make sure they

are safe it does not mean that one day I wont accidentally take out one

of

my two wheeled brothers or sisters.

Quite a bit can happen in a blink of an eye. Such is the folly of the

automobile.

With this said I do agree that many people in cars don't see us as

people or

fathers or mothers or sisters

but as inconveniences. That is until they hit one! Now THAT'S an

inconvenience!

-Keith

-----Original Message-----

From: Jeff Fuchs [mailto:jfu-@toast.net]

Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 2:27 PM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Cyclist Hit on Cornell

I usually try to stay out of discussion like this, but in this case, I

think it is important to add some factual information to Mr. Schreck's

posting.

Let me start by saying that is really unfortunte that a cyclist was

hit

by a vehicle again. Instead of blaming the City, it might be best to

determine if the driver was at fault. If so, blame the driver. Blaming

the City is like blaming the car.

Bike lanes can be significant safety improvements but they do not

absolve the driver and cyclist of responsibilty. Bike have a legal

right

to use the road. Motorists hve a responsabilty to look out for bikes

(or

other slower moving vehicles) that share the roads.

From an engineering standpoint, the City is probably correct to say

that

in order to add a paved bike lane they need to add an aggregate

subgrade. Living in Bend, I am not familiar with the section of road,

but I do know that asphalt pavement can not be applied reliably over a

soil base.

George is completely right to say that "some pavement could easily

survive." Some pavement most likely means that the pavement would

crumble and the bike lane would be full of large potholes and broken

pavement. I know when the bike lane is in worse condition than the

road

way, I tend to ride in the road. In my opinion, poor quality bike

lanes

are worse than no bike lanes.

By the way I a civil engineer. I also ride and race bikes.

Schreck, George wrote:

This morning between 7 and 7:20, there was a cyclist who was hit on

N.W.

Cornell Road between the two tunnels. The bicycle was mangled

beyond

recognition and the cyclist was lying on the ground near the

ambulance.

I have no further information regarding the accident or the condition

of

the cyclist.

This is a stretch where the city could easily place a shoulder on

the

road since there is very hard packed dirt along side. I asked the

City

to do so when they repaved the road, but was told some nonsense that

there would need to be new road bed since there is dirt on the side

and

not a city-engineered road bed. My position is that the dirt is as

hard

as concrete and that some pavement could easily survive. In

addition, I

pointed out that on a bike route in a dangerous area it was better

to

take the risk of the pavement not lasting than to risk the life of a

cyclist. Well, the City chose to risk the cyclist rather than the

pavement, and apparently the cyclist lost. I would suggest that

anyone

who rides up Cornell Road contact the City to remind it of the risk

and

suggest that the City Road Department stop worrying about its

engineering criteria and more about safety in that area. I realize

that

Portland is good to cyclists, but sometimes the engineers get in the

way

of common sense. Apologies to all engineers, but I work for a

utility,

and I know whereof I speak.

         George Schreck

          Phone: (503) 813-7211

           Fax: (503) 813-7190

Jeff Fuchs

Sunnyside Sports

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oregon-@comcast.net

2005-04-07

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Content-Type: text/plain

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Duncan

Most cogent and sensible perspective yet. Well done!

Peter

-------------- Original message --------------

Here's a perspective on this issue of what it's like for a driver in a car

vs. biker.

Alex notes that when he was in the car, it was as though he only paid

attention to what was directly in front of him. Granted, this is his first

time driving (and he was distracted by music), but what it really describes

is bad driving skills, and lack of spatial awareness (this is not a dis,

Alex, I've been there too), not the way IT IS in a car.

Before I was a bike messenger for a couple of years, I was an awful

driver. I only looked directly in front of me, and only sometimes in my

mirrors. I had no knowledge of the timing of traffic lights or how fast I

was actually going relative to cyclists. This is the experience of most

drivers, as they don't really ever have to look around out of necessity.

However, when I began working for a living on a bicycle in traffic every

day, I began to learn MUCH MORE about the dynamics of traffic and how things

move in relation to one another at those speeds. After getting used to

looking over my shoulder every time I changed lanes, and keeping a third eye

on all vehicles around me, moving in traffic became second nature and

effortless. I am now an exceptionally good driver in downtown and on the

freeway, and these skills have made it much easier to transition from

delivering packages to riding in the peloton at 30 mph.

Unfortunately, most cyclists are so scared of riding downtown that they

never really learn how to BEHAVE like traffic. They permanently act like

they are on the side of the road. Likewise, most motorists never ride their

bikes in traffic or close to to other cyclists so they do not develop the

skills of spatial awareness common to most cat 1/2/3's in the peloton.

Here's the point: riding a bike as though you are in a car makes you a

better driver. Becoming a better driver then makes you a much better

cyclist on the road. Too often it is the mentality of us vs. them (as we've

seen in so many of the postings the last few days), when in reality we all

ought to be behaving the same way when conditions allow it. We're all

traffic, and we all have an obligation to improve our skills in traffic.

(likely this does not apply to the cyclist on Cornell, but you get the idea)

It is very sad that another cyclist has been struck down by a car. My

condolences go to them and their family. I've suffered the same fate 4

times, gaining the experience of various broken bones: wrist, hand, thumb,

tibia, skull, internal bleeding, bike written off, etc. I still ride in

traffic, though. And with confidence. Now, rarely does something "jump out

in front of me/suddenly happen" when I drive/bike on the road as I can see

things coming from up to 500 meters by just watching the patterns of traffic

way up ahead AND BEHIND. You've just got to roll with the punches and

concentrate on improving your own skills as best you can. Become a better

cyclist and become a better driver and become a better cyclist! It all adds

up.

Stay safe!

Duncan, Team O

From: alex zeisberg

Reply-To: musicvi-@yahoo.com

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Cyclist Hit on Cornell

Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 14:38:00 -0700 (PDT)

I think as cyclist, we also need to remember that we are small and

vulnerable to huge cars. I drove for the first time, in a car, with music

playing and the windows roled up and HOLY POOP! it is so different from

biking. It is so hard to pay attention to whats happening around you..the

only thing you pay attention to is whats directly in front of you. I think

we, cyclist, should put ourselfs right in there view when we are in a

situation where there is not enough road for both, you and the car, to stay

in the assigned lanes. Ex. When downtown put yourself in the middle of the

middle lane on the oneway streets. Be aggressive! Stand strong! Give those

cars the look back...yall know what im talking about? Like in a race, turn

your head all the way around get a good look at the driver, establish eye

contact and then move to the side of the road to let them pass. I promise

it helps.

When on a bike you are helping the world be safer and cleaner. You deserve

the right of the road.

LONG LIVE THE BIKE!!!!

Alex Zeisberg

#912

oregon-@comcast.net wrote:

Right on, Pete! About the only thing I could add is that like motorists,

cyclists need to stay alert and aware of what's going on around them - esp

when we're "in the road" and not the bike lane. Riding in bike lanes is

fine - most of the time and when they are clean. BUT (big but) when bike

lanes are alongside parked cars, are cluttered or too narrow, I'm in the

road with you. Dodging crap or potholes or car doors makes me, the

cyclist, unpredictable to the motorist.

One last point: I think 99% of Oregon motorists do care about cyclist

safety. They don't want the problem, cost or grief that comes from hitting

someone - cyclist or another driver. Yes, they need to be reminded [and

reminded frequently on roads like Cornell, Skyline and others] that bikes

are in the road. There are lapses, of course - accidents in the real sense

- on their parts and ours. The consequences are greater for the cyclist

than the motorist, of course.

Peter

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.To respond to the

list manager send to cmur-@obra.orgTo unsubscribe send to

obra-uns-@topica.com

Alex Zeisberg

For all your sound needs...

IFAF Studios

503-626-0114

---------------------------------

Do you Yahoo!?

Better first dates. More second dates. Yahoo! Personals

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

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<html><body>

<DIV>Duncan</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>Most cogent and sensible perspective yet. Well done!</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>Peter</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

--NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_8293_1112916276_0--

Duncan Calver

2005-04-07

Here's a perspective on this issue of what it's like for a driver in a car

vs. biker.

     Alex notes that when he was in the car, it was as though he only paid

attention to what was directly in front of him. Granted, this is his first

time driving (and he was distracted by music), but what it really describes

is bad driving skills, and lack of spatial awareness (this is not a dis,

Alex, I've been there too), not the way IT IS in a car.

     Before I was a bike messenger for a couple of years, I was an awful

driver. I only looked directly in front of me, and only sometimes in my

mirrors. I had no knowledge of the timing of traffic lights or how fast I

was actually going relative to cyclists. This is the experience of most

drivers, as they don't really ever have to look around out of necessity.

However, when I began working for a living on a bicycle in traffic every

day, I began to learn MUCH MORE about the dynamics of traffic and how things

move in relation to one another at those speeds. After getting used to

looking over my shoulder every time I changed lanes, and keeping a third eye

on all vehicles around me, moving in traffic became second nature and

effortless. I am now an exceptionally good driver in downtown and on the

freeway, and these skills have made it much easier to transition from

delivering packages to riding in the peloton at 30 mph.

     Unfortunately, most cyclists are so scared of riding downtown that they

never really learn how to BEHAVE like traffic. They permanently act like

they are on the side of the road. Likewise, most motorists never ride their

bikes in traffic or close to to other cyclists so they do not develop the

skills of spatial awareness common to most cat 1/2/3's in the peloton.

     Here's the point: riding a bike as though you are in a car makes you a

better driver. Becoming a better driver then makes you a much better

cyclist on the road. Too often it is the mentality of us vs. them (as we've

seen in so many of the postings the last few days), when in reality we all

ought to be behaving the same way when conditions allow it. We're all

traffic, and we all have an obligation to improve our skills in traffic.

(likely this does not apply to the cyclist on Cornell, but you get the idea)

     It is very sad that another cyclist has been struck down by a car. My

condolences go to them and their family. I've suffered the same fate 4

times, gaining the experience of various broken bones: wrist, hand, thumb,

tibia, skull, internal bleeding, bike written off, etc. I still ride in

traffic, though. And with confidence. Now, rarely does something "jump out

in front of me/suddenly happen" when I drive/bike on the road as I can see

things coming from up to 500 meters by just watching the patterns of traffic

way up ahead AND BEHIND.   You've just got to roll with the punches and

concentrate on improving your own skills as best you can. Become a better

cyclist and become a better driver and become a better cyclist! It all adds

up.

Stay safe!

Duncan, Team O

From: alex zeisberg <musicvi-@yahoo.com>

Reply-To: musicvi-@yahoo.com

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Cyclist Hit on Cornell

Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 14:38:00 -0700 (PDT)

I think as cyclist, we also need to remember that we are small and

vulnerable to huge cars. I drove for the first time, in a car, with music

playing and the windows roled up and HOLY POOP! it is so different from

biking. It is so hard to pay attention to whats happening around you..the

only thing you pay attention to is whats directly in front of you. I think

we, cyclist, should put ourselfs right in there view when we are in a

situation where there is not enough road for both, you and the car, to stay

in the assigned lanes. Ex. When downtown put yourself in the middle of the

middle lane on the oneway streets. Be aggressive! Stand strong! Give those

cars the look back...yall know what im talking about? Like in a race, turn

your head all the way around get a good look at the driver, establish eye

contact and then move to the side of the road to let them pass. I promise

it helps.

When on a bike you are helping the world be safer and cleaner. You deserve

the right of the road.

LONG LIVE THE BIKE!!!!

Alex Zeisberg

#912

oregon-@comcast.net wrote:

Right on, Pete! About the only thing I could add is that like motorists,

cyclists need to stay alert and aware of what's going on around them - esp

when we're "in the road" and not the bike lane. Riding in bike lanes is

fine - most of the time and when they are clean. BUT (big but) when bike

lanes are alongside parked cars, are cluttered or too narrow, I'm in the

road with you. Dodging crap or potholes or car doors makes me, the

cyclist, unpredictable to the motorist.

One last point: I think 99% of Oregon motorists do care about cyclist

safety. They don't want the problem, cost or grief that comes from hitting

someone - cyclist or another driver. Yes, they need to be reminded [and

reminded frequently on roads like Cornell, Skyline and others] that bikes

are in the road. There are lapses, of course - accidents in the real sense

- on their parts and ours. The consequences are greater for the cyclist

than the motorist, of course.

Peter

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.To respond to the

list manager send to cmur-@obra.orgTo unsubscribe send to

obra-uns-@topica.com

Alex Zeisberg

For all your sound needs...

IFAF Studios

503-626-0114

---------------------------------

Do you Yahoo!?

Better first dates. More second dates. Yahoo! Personals

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

Long, Steve

2005-04-07

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charset="us-ascii"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Okay, I know this goes against the grain of this thread but does anybody

know who the cyclist was or their condition?

-----Original Message-----

From: alex zeisberg [mailto:musicvi-@yahoo.com]

Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2005 2:38 PM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Cyclist Hit on Cornell

I think as cyclist, we also need to remember that we are small

and vulnerable to huge cars. I drove for the first time, in a car, with

music playing and the windows roled up and HOLY POOP! it is so different

from biking. It is so hard to pay attention to whats happening around

you..the only thing you pay attention to is whats directly in front of

you. I think we, cyclist, should put ourselfs right in there view when

we are in a situation where there is not enough road for both, you and

the car, to stay in the assigned lanes. Ex. When downtown put yourself

in the middle of the middle lane on the oneway streets. Be aggressive!

Stand strong! Give those cars the look back...yall know what im talking

about? Like in a race, turn your head all the way around get a good look

at the driver, establish eye contact and then move to the side of the

road to let them pass. I promise it helps.

When on a bike you are helping the world be safer and cleaner.

You deserve the right of the road.

LONG LIVE THE BIKE!!!!

Alex Zeisberg

#912

oregon-@comcast.net wrote:

Right on, Pete! About the only thing I could add is

that like motorists, cyclists need to stay alert and aware of what's

going on around them - esp when we're "in the road" and not the bike

lane. Riding in bike lanes is fine - most of the time and when they are

clean. BUT (big but) when bike lanes are alongside parked cars, are

cluttered or too narrow, I'm in the road with you. Dodging crap or

potholes or car doors makes me, the cyclist, unpredictable to the

motorist.

One last point: I think 99% of Oregon motorists do care

about cyclist safety. They don't want the problem, cost or grief that

comes from hitting someone - cyclist or another driver. Yes, they need

to be reminded [and reminded frequently on roads like Cornell, Skyline

and others] that bikes are in the road. There are lapses, of course -

accidents in the real sense - on their parts and ours. The consequences

are greater for the cyclist than the motorist, of course.

Peter

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

Alex Zeisberg

For all your sound needs...

IFAF Studios

503-626-0114

________________________________

Do you Yahoo!?

Better first dates. More second dates. Yahoo! Personals

<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=27808/*http://personals.yahoo.com>

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<DIV><SPAN class=666004021-07042005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Okay,

I know this goes against the grain of this thread but does anybody know who the

cyclist was or their condition?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left><FONT

face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> alex zeisberg

[mailto:musicvi-@yahoo.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, April 07, 2005

2:38 PM<BR><B>To:</B> ob-@topica.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: [OBRA Chat]

Cyclist Hit on Cornell<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>

<DIV>I think as cyclist, we also need to remember that we are small and

vulnerable to huge cars. I drove for the first time, in a car, with music

playing and the windows roled up and HOLY POOP! it is so different from

biking. It is so hard to pay attention to whats happening around you..the only

thing you pay attention to is whats directly in front of you. I think we,

cyclist, should put ourselfs right in there view when we are in a situation

where there is not enough road for both, you and the car, to stay in the

assigned lanes. Ex. When downtown put yourself in the middle of

the middle lane on the oneway streets. Be aggressive! Stand strong! Give

those cars the look back...yall know what im talking about? Like in a race,

turn your head all the way around get a good look at the driver, establish eye

contact and then move to the side of the road to let them pass. I promise it

helps. </DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>When on a bike you are helping the world be safer and cleaner. You

deserve the right of the road. </DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>LONG LIVE THE BIKE!!!!</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>Alex Zeisberg</DIV>

<DIV>#912<BR><BR><B><I>oregon-@comcast.net</I></B> wrote:</DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq

style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">

    <DIV>Right on, Pete! About the only thing I could add is that like

    motorists, cyclists need to stay alert and aware of what's going on around

    them - esp when we're "in the road" and not the bike lane. Riding in

    bike lanes is fine - most of the time and when they are clean. BUT

    (big but) when bike lanes are alongside parked cars, are cluttered or too

    narrow, I'm in the road with you. Dodging crap or potholes or car

    doors makes me, the cyclist, unpredictable to the motorist.</DIV>

    <DIV> </DIV>

    <DIV>One last point: I think 99% of Oregon motorists do care about cyclist

    safety. They don't want the problem, cost or grief that comes from

    hitting someone - cyclist or another driver. Yes, they need to be

    reminded [and reminded frequently on roads like Cornell, Skyline and others]

    that bikes are in the road. There are lapses, of course - accidents in

    the real sense - on their parts and ours. The consequences are greater

    for the cyclist than the motorist, of course. </DIV>

    <DIV> </DIV>

    <DIV>Peter</DIV>

    <DIV> </DIV><PRE>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Alex

Zeisberg<BR>For all your sound needs...<BR>IFAF Studios<BR>503-626-0114

<P>

<HR SIZE=1>

Do you Yahoo!?<BR>Better first dates. More second dates. <A

href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=27808/*http://personals.yahoo.com">Yahoo!

Personals</A> </BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------_=_NextPart_001_01C53BBA.74916121--

alex zeisberg

2005-04-07

--0-536791485-1112909880=:15564

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

I think as cyclist, we also need to remember that we are small and vulnerable to huge cars. I drove for the first time, in a car, with music playing and the windows roled up and HOLY POOP! it is so different from biking. It is so hard to pay attention to whats happening around you..the only thing you pay attention to is whats directly in front of you. I think we, cyclist, should put ourselfs right in there view when we are in a situation where there is not enough road for both, you and the car, to stay in the assigned lanes. Ex. When downtown put yourself in the middle of the middle lane on the oneway streets. Be aggressive! Stand strong! Give those cars the look back...yall know what im talking about? Like in a race, turn your head all the way around get a good look at the driver, establish eye contact and then move to the side of the road to let them pass. I promise it helps.

When on a bike you are helping the world be safer and cleaner. You deserve the right of the road.

LONG LIVE THE BIKE!!!!

Alex Zeisberg

#912

oregon-@comcast.net wrote:

Right on, Pete! About the only thing I could add is that like motorists, cyclists need to stay alert and aware of what's going on around them - esp when we're "in the road" and not the bike lane. Riding in bike lanes is fine - most of the time and when they are clean. BUT (big but) when bike lanes are alongside parked cars, are cluttered or too narrow, I'm in the road with you. Dodging crap or potholes or car doors makes me, the cyclist, unpredictable to the motorist.

One last point: I think 99% of Oregon motorists do care about cyclist safety. They don't want the problem, cost or grief that comes from hitting someone - cyclist or another driver. Yes, they need to be reminded [and reminded frequently on roads like Cornell, Skyline and others] that bikes are in the road. There are lapses, of course - accidents in the real sense - on their parts and ours. The consequences are greater for the cyclist than the motorist, of course.

Peter

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.orgTo unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

Alex Zeisberg

For all your sound needs...

IFAF Studios

503-626-0114

---------------------------------

Do you Yahoo!?

Better first dates. More second dates. Yahoo! Personals

--0-536791485-1112909880=:15564

Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

<DIV>I think as cyclist, we also need to remember that we are small and vulnerable to huge cars. I drove for the first time, in a car, with music playing and the windows roled up and HOLY POOP! it is so different from biking. It is so hard to pay attention to whats happening around you..the only thing you pay attention to is whats directly in front of you. I think we, cyclist, should put ourselfs right in there view when we are in a situation where there is not enough road for both, you and the car, to stay in the assigned lanes. Ex. When downtown put yourself in the middle of the middle lane on the oneway streets. Be aggressive! Stand strong! Give those cars the look back...yall know what im talking about? Like in a race, turn your head all the way around get a good look at the driver, establish eye contact and then move to the side of the road to let them pass. I promise it helps. </DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>When on a bike you are helping the world be safer and cleaner. You deserve the right of the road. </DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>LONG LIVE THE BIKE!!!!</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>Alex Zeisberg</DIV>

<DIV>#912<BR><BR><B><I>oregon-@comcast.net</I></B> wrote:</DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">

<DIV>Right on, Pete! About the only thing I could add is that like motorists, cyclists need to stay alert and aware of what's going on around them - esp when we're "in the road" and not the bike lane. Riding in bike lanes is fine - most of the time and when they are clean. BUT (big but) when bike lanes are alongside parked cars, are cluttered or too narrow, I'm in the road with you. Dodging crap or potholes or car doors makes me, the cyclist, unpredictable to the motorist.</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>One last point: I think 99% of Oregon motorists do care about cyclist safety. They don't want the problem, cost or grief that comes from hitting someone - cyclist or another driver. Yes, they need to be reminded [and reminded frequently on roads like Cornell, Skyline and others] that bikes are in the road. There are lapses, of course - accidents in the real sense - on their parts and ours. The consequences are greater for the cyclist than the motorist, of course. </DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>Peter</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV><PRE>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Alex Zeisberg<br>For all your sound needs...<br>IFAF Studios<br>503-626-0114<p>

<hr size=1>Do you Yahoo!?<br>

Better first dates. More second dates. <a href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=27808/*http://personals.yahoo.com">Yahoo! Personals</a>

--0-536791485-1112909880=:15564--

Schreck, George

2005-04-07

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C53BB8.C93B8BEB

Content-Type: text/plain;

charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Just because some bike lanes are not good, it does not make sense to

avoid having them. Most bike lanes are fairly rideable as in Portland

the roads are swept.

As for awareness, while it is fine, the law of large numbers applied to

this situation means that where there is not room for both cyclist and

auto in a dangerous place, sooner or later there will be an accident

despite the best of intentions. Rather than having to rely solely on

people being aware, I would rather have the infrastructure to assist in

maintaining safety.

________________________________

From: oregon-@comcast.net [mailto:oregon-@comcast.net]

Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2005 12:54 PM

To: murphy_-@hotmail.com; ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Cyclist Hit on Cornell

Right on, Pete! About the only thing I could add is that like

motorists, cyclists need to stay alert and aware of what's going on

around them - esp when we're "in the road" and not the bike lane.

Riding in bike lanes is fine - most of the time and when they are clean.

BUT (big but) when bike lanes are alongside parked cars, are cluttered

or too narrow, I'm in the road with you. Dodging crap or potholes or

car doors makes me, the cyclist, unpredictable to the motorist.

One last point: I think 99% of Oregon motorists do care about cyclist

safety. They don't want the problem, cost or grief that comes from

hitting someone - cyclist or another driver. Yes, they need to be

reminded [and reminded frequently on roads like Cornell, Skyline and

others] that bikes are in the road. There are lapses, of course -

accidents in the real sense - on their parts and ours. The consequences

are greater for the cyclist than the motorist, of course.

Peter

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This email is confidential and may be legally privileged.

It is intended solely for the addressee. Access to this email by anyone else, unless expressly approved by the sender or an authorized addressee, is unauthorized.

If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or any action omitted or taken in reliance on it, is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you believe that you have received this email in error, please contact the sender, delete this e-mail and destroy all copies.

==============================================================================

------_=_NextPart_001_01C53BB8.C93B8BEB

Content-Type: text/html;

charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">

<HTML><HEAD>

<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=us-ascii">

<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1492" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>

<BODY>

<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=502322421-07042005><FONT face=Arial

color=#0000ff size=2>Just because some bike lanes are not good, it does not make

sense to avoid having them. Most bike lanes are fairly rideable as in

Portland the roads are swept. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>

<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=502322421-07042005><FONT face=Arial

color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>

<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=502322421-07042005><FONT face=Arial

color=#0000ff size=2>As for awareness, while it is fine, the law of large

numbers applied to this situation means that where there is not room for both

cyclist and auto in a dangerous place, sooner or later there will be an accident

despite the best of intentions. Rather than having to rely solely on

people being aware, I would rather have the infrastructure to assist in

maintaining safety.</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>

<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>

<HR tabIndex=-1>

<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> oregon-@comcast.net

[mailto:oregon-@comcast.net] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, April 07, 2005

12:54 PM<BR><B>To:</B> murphy_-@hotmail.com;

ob-@topica.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: [OBRA Chat] Cyclist Hit on

Cornell<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV>Right on, Pete! About the only thing I could add is that like

motorists, cyclists need to stay alert and aware of what's going on around them

- esp when we're "in the road" and not the bike lane. Riding in bike lanes

is fine - most of the time and when they are clean. BUT (big but) when

bike lanes are alongside parked cars, are cluttered or too narrow, I'm in the

road with you. Dodging crap or potholes or car doors makes me, the

cyclist, unpredictable to the motorist.</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>One last point: I think 99% of Oregon motorists do care about cyclist

safety. They don't want the problem, cost or grief that comes from hitting

someone - cyclist or another driver. Yes, they need to be reminded [and

reminded frequently on roads like Cornell, Skyline and others] that bikes are in

the road. There are lapses, of course - accidents in the real sense - on

their parts and ours. The consequences are greater for the cyclist than

the motorist, of course. </DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>Peter</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV><PRE>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com</PRE></BODY></HTML>

<P>------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>

<br>

This email is confidential and may be legally privileged.<br>

<br>

It is intended solely for the addressee. Access to this email by anyone else, unless expressly approved by the sender or an authorized addressee, is unauthorized.<br>

<br>

If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or any action omitted or taken in reliance on it, is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you believe that you have received this email in error, please contact the sender, delete this e-mail and destroy all copies.<br>

<br>

==============================================================================<br>

</P>

------_=_NextPart_001_01C53BB8.C93B8BEB--

Schreck, George

2005-04-07

Except that the City had paved a portion 10 years ago and it still

survives because the area in question is the old road bed when the road

was redirected. All I am asking for is for the portion to be completed.

This what drives me crazy about engineers. They talk so much about

standards, they refuse to look at actual situations which may for some

reason run counter to the accepted wisdom. I fight with my engineers

here about that all the time, and most times when forced to confront the

situation, they grudgingly agree that it can be done despite the

standards. I expect that this situation is one of those times.

-----Original Message-----

From: Peter Murphy [mailto:murphy_-@hotmail.com]

Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2005 12:23 PM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Cyclist Hit on Cornell

Gee George...are you a professional civil engineer?

Well, I am and I love sidewalk superintendants telling us engineers the

best

way to construct pavements or projects.

You wrote," My position is that the dirt is as hard as concrete and

that

some pavement could easily survive."

---So some of it survives? What about the other portions that don't?

Will

that make it any safer? It will make it more dangerous, with cyclists

dipping into potholes or weaving from the bike lane to the road surface

to

avoid the areas where the pavement didn't survive. Besides, is it wise

to

throw City money at a project where some of the pavement will not

survive?

Dirt, or soil, as we like to call it, is not the best surface for

asphalt

construction. Native soil does not support asphalt well for very long.

The

native soil is prone to trapping water and becoming uncompacted, which

is

one of the reasons why asphalt is constructed over a layer crushed

aggregate.

Then you wrote, " I pointed out that on a bike route in a dangerous area

it

was better to take the risk of the pavement not lasting than to risk the

life of a cyclist."

---I don't know about you, but if the asphalt is crappy, I won't ride on

it.

I'll ride right down the roadway to avoid the crappy pavement. So how

is

crappy pavement making anyone safer.

By the way, the accident is not an engineering fault. Bicycles belong on

the

road. And the sooner motorists learn this, the safer we will all be. As

a

cyclist and an engineer, I am against bike lanes as they segregate

bicycles

from the roadway and lull motorists and cyclists into a false sense of

security. And when motorists don't see a bike lane painted they

automatically assume that the cyclist does not belong.

Our jobs is to look at the entire situation and assess the proper and

practical solutions to to everyday life, while being made fun of while

doing

it. Your solutions to the problems are the ones that made very little

"common sense".

Pete Murphy

From: "Schreck, George" <george.-@pacificorp.com>

Reply-To: george.-@pacificorp.com

To: obra <ob-@topica.com>

CC: "Rasmussen, Dale" <Dale.Ra-@PacifiCorp.com>, "Werner, Bruce"

<bruce_-@pgn.com>, "Gardner, Andrew" <argar-@stoel.com>

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Cyclist Hit on Cornell

Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 13:59:52 -0700

This morning between 7 and 7:20, there was a cyclist who was hit on

N.W.

Cornell Road between the two tunnels. The bicycle was mangled beyond

recognition and the cyclist was lying on the ground near the ambulance.

I

have no further information regarding the accident or the condition of

the

cyclist.

This is a stretch where the city could easily place a shoulder on the

road

since there is very hard packed dirt along side. I asked the City to

do so

when they repaved the road, but was told some nonsense that there would

need to be new road bed since there is dirt on the side and not a

city-engineered road bed. My position is that the dirt is as hard as

concrete and that some pavement could easily survive. In addition, I

pointed out that on a bike route in a dangerous area it was better to

take

the risk of the pavement not lasting than to risk the life of a

cyclist.

Well, the City chose to risk the cyclist rather than the pavement, and

apparently the cyclist lost. I would suggest that anyone who rides up

Cornell Road contact the City to remind it of the risk and suggest that

the

City Road Department stop worrying about its engineering criteria and

more

about safety in that area. I realize that Portland is good to cyclists,

but

sometimes the engineers get in the way of common sense. Apologies to

all

engineers, but I work for a utility, and I know whereof I speak.

         George Schreck

          Phone: (503) 813-7211

           Fax: (503) 813-7190

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This email is confidential and may be legally privileged.

It is intended solely for the addressee. Access to this email by anyone else, unless expressly approved by the sender or an authorized addressee, is unauthorized.

If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or any action omitted or taken in reliance on it, is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you believe that you have received this email in error, please contact the sender, delete this e-mail and destroy all copies.

==============================================================================

oregon-@comcast.net

2005-04-07

--NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_19583_1112903665_0

Content-Type: text/plain

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Right on, Pete! About the only thing I could add is that like motorists, cyclists need to stay alert and aware of what's going on around them - esp when we're "in the road" and not the bike lane. Riding in bike lanes is fine - most of the time and when they are clean. BUT (big but) when bike lanes are alongside parked cars, are cluttered or too narrow, I'm in the road with you. Dodging crap or potholes or car doors makes me, the cyclist, unpredictable to the motorist.

One last point: I think 99% of Oregon motorists do care about cyclist safety. They don't want the problem, cost or grief that comes from hitting someone - cyclist or another driver. Yes, they need to be reminded [and reminded frequently on roads like Cornell, Skyline and others] that bikes are in the road. There are lapses, of course - accidents in the real sense - on their parts and ours. The consequences are greater for the cyclist than the motorist, of course.

Peter

-------------- Original message --------------

Gee George...are you a professional civil engineer?

Well, I am and I love sidewalk superintendants telling us engineers the best

way to construct pavements or projects.

You wrote," My position is that the dirt is as hard as concrete and that

some pavement could easily survive."

---So some of it survives? What about the other portions that don't? Will

that make it any safer? It will make it more dangerous, with cyclists

dipping into potholes or weaving from the bike lane to the road surface to

avoid the areas where the pavement didn't survive. Besides, is it wise to

throw City money at a project where some of the pavement will not survive?

Dirt, or soil, as we like to call it, is not the best surface for asphalt

construction. Native soil does not support asphalt well for very long. The

native soil is prone to trapping water and becoming uncompacted, which is

one of the reasons why asphalt is constructed over a layer crushed

aggregate.

Then you wrote, " I pointed out that on a bike route in a dangerous area it

was better to take the risk of the pavement not lasting than to risk the

life of a cyclist."

---I don't know about you, but if the asphalt is crappy, I won't ride on it.

I'll ride right down the roadway to avoid the crappy pavement. So how is

crappy pavement making anyone safer.

By the way, the accident is not an engineering fault. Bicycles belong on the

road. And the sooner motorists learn this, the safer we will all be. As a

cyclist and an engineer, I am against bike lanes as they segregate bicycles

from the roadway and lull motorists and cyclists into a false sense of

security. And when motorists don't see a bike lane painted they

automatically assume that the cyclist does not belong.

Our jobs is to look at the entire situation and assess the proper and

practical solutions to to everyday life, while being made fun of while doing

it. Your solutions to the problems are the ones that made very little

"common sense".

Pete Murphy

From: "Schreck, George"

Reply-To: george.-@pacificorp.com

To: obra

CC: "Rasmussen, Dale" , "Werner, Bruce"

, "Gardner, Andrew"

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Cyclist Hit on Cornell

Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 13:59:52 -0700

This morning between 7 and 7:20, there was a cyclist who was hit on N.W.

Cornell Road between the two tunnels. The bicycle was mangled beyond

recognition and the cyclist was lying on the ground near the ambulance. I

have no further information regarding the accident or the condition of the

cyclist.

This is a stretch where the city could easily place a shoulder on the road

since there is very hard packed dirt along side. I asked the City to do so

when they repaved the road, but was told some nonsense that there would

need to be new road bed since there is dirt on the side and not a

city-engineered road bed. My position is that the dirt is as hard as

concrete and that some pavement could easily survive. In addition, I

pointed out that on a bike route in a dangerous area it was better to take

the risk of the pavement not lasting than to risk the life of a cyclist.

Well, the City chose to risk the cyclist rather than the pavement, and

apparently the cyclist lost. I would suggest that anyone who rides up

Cornell Road contact the City to remind it of the risk and suggest that the

City Road Department stop worrying about its engineering criteria and more

about safety in that area. I realize that Portland is good to cyclists, but

sometimes the engineers get in the way of common sense. Apologies to all

engineers, but I work for a utility, and I know whereof I speak.

George Schreck

Phone: (503) 813-7211

Fax: (503) 813-7190

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

--NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_19583_1112903665_0

Content-Type: text/html

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

<html><body>

<DIV>Right on, Pete! About the only thing I could add is that like motorists, cyclists need to stay alert and aware of what's going on around them - esp when we're "in the road" and not the bike lane. Riding in bike lanes is fine - most of the time and when they are clean. BUT (big but) when bike lanes are alongside parked cars, are cluttered or too narrow, I'm in the road with you. Dodging crap or potholes or car doors makes me, the cyclist, unpredictable to the motorist.</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>One last point: I think 99% of Oregon motorists do care about cyclist safety. They don't want the problem, cost or grief that comes from hitting someone - cyclist or another driver. Yes, they need to be reminded [and reminded frequently on roads like Cornell, Skyline and others] that bikes are in the road. There are lapses, of course - accidents in the real sense - on their parts and ours. The consequences are greater for the cyclist than the motorist, of course. </DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>Peter</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

--NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_19583_1112903665_0--

A2000sp-@aol.com

2005-04-07

--part1_30.7014e513.2f86e5a5_boundary

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

BRAVO!

Ride most any bike lane and most will agree with you!

When most roads are repaved they stop just inside of the painted line which

is just freaking me out to ride on a edge like that. Or there is so much crap

lying in the bike lane you can't ride there anyway. I'll take my chances riding

in the traffic, which I'm a part of and use the "bike lanes" as an escape

route!

Jack Walker.

--part1_30.7014e513.2f86e5a5_boundary

Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><HTML><FONT COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=12 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Book Antiqua" LANG="0"><B>BRAVO!<BR>

<BR>

Ride most any bike lane and most will agree with you! <BR>

When most roads are repaved they stop just inside of the painted line which is just freaking me out to ride on a edge like that. Or there is so much crap lying in the bike lane you can't ride there anyway. I'll take my chances riding in the traffic, which I'm a part of and use the "bike lanes" as an escape route!<BR>

<BR>

Jack Walker.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#ff0000" BACK="#0000ff" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #0000ff" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=12 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Book Antiqua" LANG="0"><BR>

</B></FONT></HTML>

--part1_30.7014e513.2f86e5a5_boundary--

Peter Murphy

2005-04-07

Gee George...are you a professional civil engineer?

Well, I am and I love sidewalk superintendants telling us engineers the best

way to construct pavements or projects.

You wrote," My position is that the dirt is as hard as concrete and that

some pavement could easily survive."

---So some of it survives? What about the other portions that don't? Will

that make it any safer? It will make it more dangerous, with cyclists

dipping into potholes or weaving from the bike lane to the road surface to

avoid the areas where the pavement didn't survive. Besides, is it wise to

throw City money at a project where some of the pavement will not survive?

Dirt, or soil, as we like to call it, is not the best surface for asphalt

construction. Native soil does not support asphalt well for very long. The

native soil is prone to trapping water and becoming uncompacted, which is

one of the reasons why asphalt is constructed over a layer crushed

aggregate.

Then you wrote, " I pointed out that on a bike route in a dangerous area it

was better to take the risk of the pavement not lasting than to risk the

life of a cyclist."

---I don't know about you, but if the asphalt is crappy, I won't ride on it.

I'll ride right down the roadway to avoid the crappy pavement. So how is

crappy pavement making anyone safer.

By the way, the accident is not an engineering fault. Bicycles belong on the

road. And the sooner motorists learn this, the safer we will all be. As a

cyclist and an engineer, I am against bike lanes as they segregate bicycles

from the roadway and lull motorists and cyclists into a false sense of

security. And when motorists don't see a bike lane painted they

automatically assume that the cyclist does not belong.

Our jobs is to look at the entire situation and assess the proper and

practical solutions to to everyday life, while being made fun of while doing

it. Your solutions to the problems are the ones that made very little

"common sense".

Pete Murphy

From: "Schreck, George" <george.-@pacificorp.com>

Reply-To: george.-@pacificorp.com

To: obra <ob-@topica.com>

CC: "Rasmussen, Dale" <Dale.Ra-@PacifiCorp.com>, "Werner, Bruce"

<bruce_-@pgn.com>, "Gardner, Andrew" <argar-@stoel.com>

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Cyclist Hit on Cornell

Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 13:59:52 -0700

This morning between 7 and 7:20, there was a cyclist who was hit on N.W.

Cornell Road between the two tunnels. The bicycle was mangled beyond

recognition and the cyclist was lying on the ground near the ambulance. I

have no further information regarding the accident or the condition of the

cyclist.

This is a stretch where the city could easily place a shoulder on the road

since there is very hard packed dirt along side. I asked the City to do so

when they repaved the road, but was told some nonsense that there would

need to be new road bed since there is dirt on the side and not a

city-engineered road bed. My position is that the dirt is as hard as

concrete and that some pavement could easily survive. In addition, I

pointed out that on a bike route in a dangerous area it was better to take

the risk of the pavement not lasting than to risk the life of a cyclist.

Well, the City chose to risk the cyclist rather than the pavement, and

apparently the cyclist lost. I would suggest that anyone who rides up

Cornell Road contact the City to remind it of the risk and suggest that the

City Road Department stop worrying about its engineering criteria and more

about safety in that area. I realize that Portland is good to cyclists, but

sometimes the engineers get in the way of common sense. Apologies to all

engineers, but I work for a utility, and I know whereof I speak.

         George Schreck

          Phone: (503) 813-7211

           Fax: (503) 813-7190

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

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Roger Joys

2005-04-07

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A sign like this also alerts cyclists to pay attention too! As much as we'd all like to think that every cyclist on the road is paying full and careful attention to the objective hazards, the reality is that too many are pretty oblivious.

-r

-----Original Message-----

From: Phil Bentley [mailto:pben-@rsblaw.net]

Sent: Thursday, April 7, 2005 06:37 PM

To: george.-@pacificorp.com, 'obra'

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Cyclist Hit on Cornell

I remember driving up Hwy 101 recently in N. California and noting huge yellow signs with flashing yellow lights that said something like ?BICYCLISTS ON ROAD?.I assume that a cyclist was killed on that stretch of road to garner such notable attention.Perhaps something similar would be an inexpensive alternative to installing an entire bike lane.There may be one small sign on Cornell now but something more prominent and numerous on Cornell and Skyline would be helpful to at least alert drivers to look for cyclists.

-----Original Message-----

From: Schreck, George [mailto:george.-@pacificorp.com]

Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 2:00 PM

To: obra

Cc: Rasmussen, Dale; Werner, Bruce; Gardner, Andrew

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Cyclist Hit on Cornell

This morning between 7 and 7:20, there was a cyclist who was hit on N.W. Cornell Road between the two tunnels. The bicycle was mangled beyond recognition and the cyclist was lying on the ground near the ambulance. I have no further information regarding the accident or the condition of the cyclist.

This is a stretch where the city could easily place a shoulder on the road since there is very hard packed dirt along side. I asked the City to do so when they repaved the road, but was told some nonsense that there would need to be new road bed since there is dirt on the side and not a city-engineered road bed. My position is that the dirt is as hard as concrete and that some pavement could easily survive. In addition, I pointed out that on a bike route in a dangerous area it was better to take the risk of the pavement not lasting than to risk the life of a cyclist. Well, the City chose to risk the cyclist rather than the pavement, and apparently the cyclist lost. I would suggest that anyone who rides up Cornell Road contact the City to remind it of the risk and suggest that the City Road Department stop worrying about its engineering criteria and more about safety in that area. I realize that Portland is good to cyclists, but sometimes the engineers get in the way of common sense. Apologies to all engineers, but I work for a utility, and I know whereof I speak.

George Schreck

Phone: (503) 813-7211

Fax: (503) 813-7190

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<html><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=blue><DIV><FONT face=Verdana color=#0000ff size=2>A sign like this also alerts cyclists to pay attention too! As much as we'd all like to think that every cyclist on the road is paying full and careful attention to the objective hazards, the reality is that too many are pretty oblivious.</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Verdana color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Verdana color=#0000ff size=2>-r</FONT></DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Phil Bentley [mailto:pben-@rsblaw.net]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, April 7, 2005 06:37 PM<BR><B>To:</B> george.-@pacificorp.com, 'obra'<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: [OBRA Chat] Cyclist Hit on Cornell<BR><BR></FONT>

<DIV class=Section1>

<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I remember driving up Hwy 101 recently in </SPAN></FONT><ST1:PLACE><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">N. California</SPAN></FONT></ST1:PLACE><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> and noting huge yellow signs with flashing yellow lights that said something like ?</SPAN></FONT><ST1:STREET><ST1:ADDRESS><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">BICYCLISTS ON ROAD</SPAN></FONT></ST1:ADDRESS></ST1:STREET><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">?.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I assume that a cyclist was killed on that stretch of road to garner such notable attention.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Perhaps something similar would be an inexpensive alternative to installing an entire bike lane.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>There may be one small sign on Cornell now but something more prominent and numerous on Cornell and Skyline would be helpful to at least alert drivers to look for cyclists.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN><SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN><SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN><SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>

<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>

<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">-----Original Message-----<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Schreck, George [mailto:george.-@pacificorp.com] <BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Wednesday, April 06, 2005 2:00 PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> obra<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Cc:</SPAN></B> Rasmussen, Dale; Werner, Bruce; Gardner, Andrew<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> [OBRA Chat] Cyclist Hit on Cornell</SPAN></FONT></P>

<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>

<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">This morning between 7 and 7:20, there was a cyclist who was hit on N.W. Cornell Road between the two tunnels. The bicycle was mangled beyond recognition and the cyclist was lying on the ground near the ambulance. I have no further information regarding the accident or the condition of the cyclist.</SPAN></FONT><O:P></O:P></P>

<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">This is a stretch where the city could easily place a shoulder on the road since there is very hard packed dirt along side. I asked the City to do so when they repaved the road, but was told some nonsense that there would need to be new road bed since there is dirt on the side and not a city-engineered road bed. My position is that the dirt is as hard as concrete and that some pavement could easily survive. In addition, I pointed out that on a bike route in a dangerous area it was better to take the risk of the pavement not lasting than to risk the life of a cyclist. Well, the City chose to risk the cyclist rather than the pavement, and apparently the cyclist lost. I would suggest that anyone who rides up Cornell Road contact the City to remind it of the risk and suggest that the City Road Department stop worrying about its engineering criteria and more about safety in that area. I realize that Portland is good to cyclists, but sometimes the engineers get in the way of common sense. Apologies to all engineers, but I work for a utility, and I know whereof I speak.</SPAN></FONT><O:P></O:P></P>

<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><B><I><FONT face="Bookman Old Style" color=maroon size=5><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 18pt; COLOR: maroon; FONT-STYLE: italic; FONT-FAMILY: 'Bookman Old Style'"> George Schreck</SPAN></FONT></I></B> <BR><B><I><FONT face="Bookman Old Style" color=maroon size=4><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; COLOR: maroon; FONT-STYLE: italic; FONT-FAMILY: 'Bookman Old Style'"> Phone: (503) 813-7211</SPAN></FONT></I></B> <BR><B><I><FONT face="Bookman Old Style" color=maroon size=4><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; COLOR: maroon; FONT-STYLE: italic; FONT-FAMILY: 'Bookman Old Style'"> Fax: (503) 813-7190</SPAN></FONT></I></B> <BR><FONT face=Arial><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> </SPAN></FONT> <O:P></O:P></P><PRE style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></PRE><PRE style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></PRE><PRE style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></PRE><PRE style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><<SPAN PRE>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com</PRE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></SPAN></FONT></body>

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Phil Bentley

2005-04-07

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I remember driving up Hwy 101 recently in N. California and noting huge

yellow signs with flashing yellow lights that said something like

"BICYCLISTS ON ROAD". I assume that a cyclist was killed on that

stretch of road to garner such notable attention. Perhaps something

similar would be an inexpensive alternative to installing an entire bike

lane. There may be one small sign on Cornell now but something more

prominent and numerous on Cornell and Skyline would be helpful to at

least alert drivers to look for cyclists.

-----Original Message-----

From: Schreck, George [mailto:george.-@pacificorp.com]

Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 2:00 PM

To: obra

Cc: Rasmussen, Dale; Werner, Bruce; Gardner, Andrew

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Cyclist Hit on Cornell

This morning between 7 and 7:20, there was a cyclist who was hit on N.W.

Cornell Road between the two tunnels. The bicycle was mangled beyond

recognition and the cyclist was lying on the ground near the ambulance.

I have no further information regarding the accident or the condition of

the cyclist.

This is a stretch where the city could easily place a shoulder on the

road since there is very hard packed dirt along side. I asked the City

to do so when they repaved the road, but was told some nonsense that

there would need to be new road bed since there is dirt on the side and

not a city-engineered road bed. My position is that the dirt is as hard

as concrete and that some pavement could easily survive. In addition, I

pointed out that on a bike route in a dangerous area it was better to

take the risk of the pavement not lasting than to risk the life of a

cyclist. Well, the City chose to risk the cyclist rather than the

pavement, and apparently the cyclist lost. I would suggest that anyone

who rides up Cornell Road contact the City to remind it of the risk and

suggest that the City Road Department stop worrying about its

engineering criteria and more about safety in that area. I realize that

Portland is good to cyclists, but sometimes the engineers get in the way

of common sense. Apologies to all engineers, but I work for a utility,

and I know whereof I speak.

        George Schreck

         Phone: (503) 813-7211

          Fax: (503) 813-7190

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:

10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I

remember driving up Hwy 101 recently in </span></font><st1:place><font size=2

color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;

color:navy'>N. California</span></font></st1:place><font size=2 color=navy

face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> and noting

huge yellow signs with flashing yellow lights that said something like “</span></font><st1:Street><st1:address><font

size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;

color:navy'>BICYCLISTS ON ROAD</span></font></st1:address></st1:Street><font

size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;

color:navy'>”.<span style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span>I assume that

a cyclist was killed on that stretch of road to garner such notable

attention.<span style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span>Perhaps something

similar would be an inexpensive alternative to installing an entire bike lane.<span

style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span>There may be one small sign on Cornell

now but something more prominent and numerous on Cornell and Skyline would be

helpful to at least alert drivers to look for cyclists.<span

style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span><span

style='mso-spacerun:yes'>  </span><span

style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span><span

style='mso-spacerun:yes'>  </span><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:

10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span

style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original Message-----<br>

<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> Schreck, George

[mailto:george.-@pacificorp.com] <br>

<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, April 06, 2005

2:00 PM<br>

<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> obra<br>

<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> Rasmussen, Dale; Werner,

Bruce; Gardner, Andrew<br>

<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> [OBRA Chat] Cyclist Hit

on Cornell</span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span

style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>

<p style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:

10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>This morning between 7 and 7:20, there was a cyclist

who was hit on N.W. Cornell Road between the two tunnels. The bicycle was

mangled beyond recognition and the cyclist was lying on the ground near the

ambulance. I have no further information regarding the accident or the

condition of the cyclist.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:

10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>This is a stretch where the city could easily place a

shoulder on the road since there is very hard packed dirt along side. I

asked the City to do so when they repaved the road, but was told some nonsense

that there would need to be new road bed since there is dirt on the side and

not a city-engineered road bed. My position is that the dirt is as hard

as concrete and that some pavement could easily survive. In addition, I

pointed out that on a bike route in a dangerous area it was better to take the

risk of the pavement not lasting than to risk the life of a cyclist.

Well, the City chose to risk the cyclist rather than the pavement, and

apparently the cyclist lost. I would suggest that anyone who rides up Cornell

Road contact the City to remind it of the risk and suggest that the City Road

Department stop worrying about its engineering criteria and more about safety

in that area. I realize that Portland is good to cyclists, but sometimes the

engineers get in the way of common sense. Apologies to all engineers, but

I work for a utility, and I know whereof I speak.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p style='margin-left:.5in'><b><i><font size=5 color=maroon

face="Bookman Old Style"><span style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Bookman Old Style";

color:maroon;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>

George Schreck</span></font></i></b> <br>

<b><i><font size=4 color=maroon face="Bookman Old Style"><span

style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Bookman Old Style";color:maroon;

font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>         Phone:

(503) 813-7211</span></font></i></b> <br>

<b><i><font size=4 color=maroon face="Bookman Old Style"><span

style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Bookman Old Style";color:maroon;

font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>

Fax: (503) 813-7190</span></font></i></b> <br>

<font face=Arial><span style='font-family:Arial'> </span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>

<pre style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span

style='font-size:10.0pt'>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre

style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span

style='font-size:10.0pt'>To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre

style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span

style='font-size:10.0pt'>To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre

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JasonAS-@yahoo.com

2005-04-07

Has anyone learned any additional facts about the

cyclist hit? For instance, was he struck from behind

while doing his level best to ride close to the white

line? If anything, it would be good to know if he

just had bad luck or there is a lesson to be learned.

Jason

--- Bruce Werner <bruce.-@pgn.com> wrote:

It sounds like it's time for some cycling homework:

For all those with an interest, take a ride up

Cornell and check out

the bike lane. It has bike only paths around the

tunnels and where there

are retaining walls or bridges there is a bike lane.

However, the City

road engineers, in their infinite wisdom, won't

connect the outbound

sections just before and in between the tunnels, and

pave a continuous

bike lane. The unpaved shoulder on the narrow

sections of pavement is

generally ten feet wide and much wider where there

are turnouts. In

fact, when they recently repaved the road they had

to intentionally

narrow the paving so that they didn't pave a

complete bike lane! The

narrow sections going uphill are very hazardous to

cyclists due to the

volume of traffic using the road during commute

hours. For cyclists

riding out to the Bethany area, other routes take

much longer and have

worse hazards.

Last year George Schreck and I through e-mail tried

to get Roger Geller

to convince the road department to pave a complete

lane on the narrow

sections during repaving. The response we got was

that the sub-base on

the shoulder wasn't adequate. At some point for

public safety you have

to put aside blind adherence to engineering

gibberish and use common

sense. If the sub-base were inadequate on this

section then the sections

with a bike lane should also be unable to support

pavement and be

crumbling, which they are not. For example, there is

a section outbound

just beyond the first tunnel which appears to not

meet the sub-base

criteria which has been paved and is in perfect

condition. The irony of

this is that the recent paving is a foot or two

wider than before, and

in some sections actually creates a "mini" bike

lane. Apparently the

road department violates their sub-base argument

anyway when repaving. I

fail to see the difference between one or two feet

vs. four feet. Just

exactly where does this mysterious sub-base end?

Where the cyclist was hit, even though the paving is

wider, the fog

line was extended to the edge of the pavement.

Here's the assignment:

Take a ride out Cornell and see if you agree or

disagree. If you agree

let Roger Geller and anyone else with influence at

the City road

department know about it. This is a short span of

roadway but the

fundamental logic behind these types of decisions is

used for similar

paving projects all over the City.

Thanks, Bruce

"Keith A. Prior" <toka-@ix.netcom.com>

04/06/05 2:51 PM >>>

I think that instead of blaming the driver or the

cyclist or the road

department I

suggest we all step back and remember that riding a

bicycle is an

inherently

dangerous thing. With

death passing us by at high speed just inches away

over and over and

over

year after year after year. It is

amazing that we don't see it more often with the

amount of people on

bikes

here in Portland.

Even though I am very aware of cyclists and always

take measures to

slow

down and make sure they

are safe it does not mean that one day I wont

accidentally take out one

of

my two wheeled brothers or sisters.

Quite a bit can happen in a blink of an eye. Such is

the folly of the

automobile.

With this said I do agree that many people in cars

don't see us as

people or

fathers or mothers or sisters

but as inconveniences. That is until they hit one!

Now THAT'S an

inconvenience!

-Keith

-----Original Message-----

From: Jeff Fuchs [mailto:jfu-@toast.net]

Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 2:27 PM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Cyclist Hit on Cornell

I usually try to stay out of discussion like this,

but in this case, I

think it is important to add some factual

information to Mr. Schreck's

posting.

Let me start by saying that is really unfortunte

that a cyclist was

hit

by a vehicle again. Instead of blaming the City, it

might be best to

determine if the driver was at fault. If so, blame

the driver. Blaming

the City is like blaming the car.

Bike lanes can be significant safety improvements

but they do not

absolve the driver and cyclist of responsibilty.

Bike have a legal

right

to use the road. Motorists hve a responsabilty to

look out for bikes

(or

other slower moving vehicles) that share the roads.

From an engineering standpoint, the City is probably

correct to say

that

in order to add a paved bike lane they need to add

an aggregate

subgrade. Living in Bend, I am not familiar with the

section of road,

but I do know that asphalt pavement can not be

applied reliably over a

soil base.

George is completely right to say that "some

pavement could easily

survive." Some pavement most likely means that the

pavement would

crumble and the bike lane would be full of large

potholes and broken

pavement. I know when the bike lane is in worse

condition than the

road

way, I tend to ride in the road. In my opinion, poor

quality bike

lanes

are worse than no bike lanes.

By the way I a civil engineer. I also ride and race

bikes.

Schreck, George wrote:

This morning between 7 and 7:20, there was a

cyclist who was hit on

N.W.

Cornell Road between the two tunnels. The bicycle

was mangled

beyond

recognition and the cyclist was lying on the

ground near the

ambulance.

I have no further information regarding the

accident or the condition

of

the cyclist.

This is a stretch where the city could easily

place a shoulder on

the

road since there is very hard packed dirt along

side. I asked the

City

=== message truncated ===

eri-@fusium.com

2005-04-06

Just out of curiosity, it would be interesting to know how many

vehicle-vehicle accidents have occurred on that stretch of roadway? If

it is inherently unsafe, maybe there is a better route for cyclist??

Cornell is the lesser of three evils:

1) Highway 26 (Suicide)

2) Barnes/Burnside (Yikes)

3) Cornell

The best alternative to riding over the hill to Portland from the West side

is to go around it. Go down towards the Sunset transit center and catch the

new bike path to the zoo, and down to Portland. Or, you could take Skyline

to Fairview to the zoo.

But if you want to go over the hill, Cornell is the best way to go. I ride

Thompson/Cornell to/from work almost every day, and this particular stretch

of road really sucks for cycling, especially during rush hour. Think I'll

take the zoo route home today...

-Erik

Bruce Werner

2005-04-06

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It sounds like it's time for some cycling homework:

For all those with an interest, take a ride up Cornell and check out

the bike lane. It has bike only paths around the tunnels and where there

are retaining walls or bridges there is a bike lane. However, the City

road engineers, in their infinite wisdom, won't connect the outbound

sections just before and in between the tunnels, and pave a continuous

bike lane. The unpaved shoulder on the narrow sections of pavement is

generally ten feet wide and much wider where there are turnouts. In

fact, when they recently repaved the road they had to intentionally

narrow the paving so that they didn't pave a complete bike lane! The

narrow sections going uphill are very hazardous to cyclists due to the

volume of traffic using the road during commute hours. For cyclists

riding out to the Bethany area, other routes take much longer and have

worse hazards.

Last year George Schreck and I through e-mail tried to get Roger Geller

to convince the road department to pave a complete lane on the narrow

sections during repaving. The response we got was that the sub-base on

the shoulder wasn't adequate. At some point for public safety you have

to put aside blind adherence to engineering gibberish and use common

sense. If the sub-base were inadequate on this section then the sections

with a bike lane should also be unable to support pavement and be

crumbling, which they are not. For example, there is a section outbound

just beyond the first tunnel which appears to not meet the sub-base

criteria which has been paved and is in perfect condition. The irony of

this is that the recent paving is a foot or two wider than before, and

in some sections actually creates a "mini" bike lane. Apparently the

road department violates their sub-base argument anyway when repaving. I

fail to see the difference between one or two feet vs. four feet. Just

exactly where does this mysterious sub-base end?

Where the cyclist was hit, even though the paving is wider, the fog

line was extended to the edge of the pavement.

Here's the assignment:

Take a ride out Cornell and see if you agree or disagree. If you agree

let Roger Geller and anyone else with influence at the City road

department know about it. This is a short span of roadway but the

fundamental logic behind these types of decisions is used for similar

paving projects all over the City.

Thanks, Bruce

"Keith A. Prior" <toka-@ix.netcom.com> 04/06/05 2:51 PM >>>