Although everyone has the right to express their opinions, with that right
comes the responsibility to make sure that you know what you are talking
about and have your "facts" correct(ignorance is not an excuse).
Furthermore, you should refrain from personal attacks, particularly when you
are completely ignorant of the facts. Wild accusations can cause great harm
which often cannot be completely rectified with an after-the-fact apology or
retraction. Nevertheless, you owe an immediate apology to the Murrays.
George C. Schreck
Phone: (503) 813-7211
Fax: (503) 813-7252
-----Original Message-----
From: Gregg Magnus [mailto:gre-@flashmail.com]
Sent: Friday, February 11, 2000 5:52 PM
To: george_-@pgn.com; ob-@teleport.com; ob-@topica.com
Subject: Re: rec. bicycle racing posting= My defense
I most certainly agree with what Mr. Gardner has said. Mrs. Martin I'm
sorry you don't see what excellent racing we have here in Oregon, it is
doing nothing but growing and getting better. Mr. and Mrs. Murray are doing
a ton work for nothing more than their love of the sport and to make us
"bike racers" happy. If you think you could do as much work as well as they
could good luck. But please in the future, keep your mouth shut (or in this
case your keyboard) until you have something valid to share with us.
-Gregg Magnus
----- Original Message -----
From: George T Gardner <george_-@pgn.com>
To: <ob-@teleport.com>; <ob-@topica.com>
Sent: Friday, February 11, 2000 5:17 PM
Subject: Re: rec. bicycle racing posting= My defense
Candi, I realize you did not want defenses however, if this network is for
dialogue, here it goes.
Bonnie,
I sense you are frustrated by the lack of opportunities for your son to
advance his interest in cycling. You are looking for a higher level of
competition, something between the level of what the National Racing
Calender offers, and what we have here at the regional level. But I feel the
level you desire is more dictated by demographics and economics (and
possibly effort, or lack thereof, by national governing bodies in Colorado
Springs, which I will not get into here). By blaming OBRA and the Murrays
for not finding this level, I feel you are biting the hand that has fed you.
Willie Sutton once said he robbed a bank because that's where the money is:
A vast majority of the races are held in the Willamette Valley corridor only
because a vast majority of the people in this state live in that area.
Every race organizer know this, as he or she simply projects that people's
time and gas has a cost.
On the other hand the Portland Metropolitan area is relatively small in
comparison to metro areas in California or even denser East Coast. For you
to suggest that there could be a league here with higher a level
competition, (e.g. more Cat 1&2's, more Juniors?) is wishing for a demand
that simply cannot be met by the supply. It might be more apt for you to
compare our region to ones similar in size. In travelling around the country
for business or vacation, I often check into the local racing scenes. Far
too often, I'm unimpressed with the races available at these places and
leave grateful that we have such a vibrant scene in Oregon.
I think you may be frustrated by the lack of talent, participation and
development in the junior classes, based on my earlier discussions with you.
You probably realize that you and your husband are anomalies in this sport:
two dedicated parents who give tons of time and resources to help your son
pursue his interest. Most people in the US enter bicycle racing through
other means. Why cycling lacks substantial junior participation is due to a
multitude of factors (our car culture, competing sports like soccer &
baseball, the sports technical nature, costs, etc, etc).
Locally, many teams here make considerable efforts to promote and subsidize
junior development. Likewise, promoters offer substantially lower fees for
junior races. However there are few junior riders in comparison to the
number of others. To accuse the Murrays of inhibiting any junior
development or higher competition is unjust. They are simply serving the
population of riders that comes to them.
Lastly to accuse the Murrays of making a monetary gain is unreal. Where is
your evidence? It seems a no brainer to count up the resources it takes to
run races, and an organization like OBRA, and then subtract the revenues to
know that the Murrays are not making a profit. Instead, I suspect they are
operating at a significant loss, not even counting for the innumerable hours
they give. They only counter this loss by their love of the sport and their
love for seeing individuals like us realize our desires for competition.
This sport truly needs more grassroots organizers and to put down two people
who have clearly given so much is disgraceful. I am truly angered by your
accusations and suggest an apology is in order.
George Gardner
george_-@pgn.com
Candi Murray <ob-@teleport.com> 02/11 11:34 AM >>>
OBRA members, I am not posting this for you to respond to, only to defend
my family
The following was posted on rec.bicycle racing by local Bonnie Martin
Candi
"Mike
Although I have no qualms with your right to make the choice that you made
with regard to OBRA's developing it's own sport racing league here in the
state I think that there is a need to qualify that the choices that were
made have also put sever restrictions on any riders wishing to participate
in anything other than intermediate or regional racing .
Thus, nirvana for you, is a race calendar of 180 some odd races wherein your
personal needs as a sporting level masters racer are being met. There is
another catch however that you seem to fail to mention as you're arguments
have progressed, and that is, if I am to make an educated guess, at least a
half if not two-thirds of all racing under the OBRA umbrella are providing
some sort of monetary gain (albeit limited) for you or your family as
promoter or serving in an officials capacity.
Additionally, as a result of the earlier direction that was being taken
prior to the OBRA/USAC split, which you and your significant other were also
heavily involved in, the majority of those races are centered around the
Portland metro, within two hours drive north or south on the I-5 corridor,
from where your family resides, thus also making it to provide such services
such as the shared equipment that you mention here.
Although I too will argue that your concerns were legitimate, the "happy
family" organizational structure that you are so willing to promote does
have its major flaw in that in addition to creating somewhat of a personal
fiefdom, albeit ambivalent (which brings me back to one of my arguments from
last year of what would happen if you folks were killed in a car accident
and thus removed from the scene), OBRA does not provide a channel for
individuals of ambition to obtain national recognition which other sporting
league riders such as Northern Cal's or the ACA or ABA have due to in part
that your riders are so land-locked within the region and thus have no
opportunities other than what OBRA provides.
Sometimes the world is not quite as perfect as one would like others to
believe,
Bonnie"
OBRa members again.
I get NO compensation from OBRA what so ever, Mike and I have never
evenmade a profit from bicycle racing. (Wouldn't that be nice if you could
do so)
Mike offers the lowest entry fee in the state at the velodrome for its
development racing- the entry fee doesn't cover the costs of production.
We are involved in cycling only because we enjoy it and the people
associated with it. We have alot of disposable of time and income and this
is how we CHOOSE to spend. it
Candi
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