change in the results at PIR

mike.m-@obra.org

2005-04-27



Ken Finch [mailto:kj_f-@yahoo.com] wrote:



"I still believe it's only a small percentage of riders who read this list."



Although it is difficult to asses how many people actually read the list it

should be noted that there are currently 920 subscribers. That number is

equivalent to roughly 50% of the current annual membership. Arguably the

member on the list are more often than not the active members. That,

combined with the word of mouth discussion that I hear constantly about

things from the list, would indicates to be that the penetration of info on

the list is better than "a small percentage of riders". On the other hand,

I would agree that for important matters simply posting to the list is

inadequate publicity.



As for trying to keep people from sprinting into the line when they are

finishing well down in the pack I am not sure how important or teachable

this is. Posting results past the 15 needed for BAR computation is another

issue. It is a bit of a double edged sword. On one hand by making higher

places, even well back in the field seem more important it does encourage

participation. On the other it encourages rather pointless sprinting. In a

venue like PIR where there are lead out riders fading back at the end this

is dangerous as was demonstrated last night.



The other, and probably more important issue, is that placing far back in

the field consumes a LARGE amount of time on the part of officials at the

race and then Candi later at home reviewing tapes and entering results.



On balance I think that posting the top 15 should be adequate as places

after that, except in time trials and very hilly road races, are really only

random occurrences anyhow.



Mike Murray



Drew Russell

2005-04-27



Crashes will happen. If you are worried about going down, don't race.

The spring water corridor is wide open these days.



I just pulled 14 stitches out of my elbow from King's Valley. And I was

taken down by my own teammate.



It is a race. A race.    And as they said in Days of Thunder..."rubbing

is racing"



d



-----Original Message-----

From: Dan Ashcom [mailto:ashc-@gmail.com]

Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2005 11:28 AM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] change in the results at PIR



Candi,



Before I read this post, I was about to send you an email thanking you

for including results for the whole field this year. I think it is so

great!



I agree with Jake in that seeing the results for the whole field gives

me the opportunity to see my progress. Being fat and slow, that means

I'm not going to be anywhere near 15th for a while, if ever, but the

results are still a great motivator. (And isn't that what PIR is for?)



I guess my biggest problem is that all of us folks that finish out of

15th are being punished because one person made a mistake. As Jake

also said, you're always going to have people sprinting for 50th,

fewer results aren't going to change that. If your goal is to

discourage reckless behavior, I would think that some form of

punishment for reckless riders would be a better deterrent than not

having results.



So, that's my plea for continuing to post full results. Thanks for

reading!



da



On 4/27/05, Candi Murray <cmur-@obra.org> wrote:

 Last night there was a crash in the 3/4 field because a rider was

sprinting for 49th place into the back of slowing riders. To assist

in

 this not happening again in the future we will only pick the top 15.

If

 you wish to know your place and are not in the top 15, count.



Candi Murray



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

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Daniel Ashcom

2005-04-27



Candi,



Before I read this post, I was about to send you an email thanking you

for including results for the whole field this year. I think it is so

great!



I agree with Jake in that seeing the results for the whole field gives

me the opportunity to see my progress. Being fat and slow, that means

I'm not going to be anywhere near 15th for a while, if ever, but the

results are still a great motivator. (And isn't that what PIR is for?)



I guess my biggest problem is that all of us folks that finish out of

15th are being punished because one person made a mistake. As Jake

also said, you're always going to have people sprinting for 50th,

fewer results aren't going to change that. If your goal is to

discourage reckless behavior, I would think that some form of

punishment for reckless riders would be a better deterrent than not

having results.



So, that's my plea for continuing to post full results. Thanks for reading!



da



On 4/27/05, Candi Murray <cmur-@obra.org> wrote:

 Last night there was a crash in the 3/4 field because a rider was

sprinting for 49th place into the back of slowing riders. To assist in

this not happening again in the future we will only pick the top 15. If

you wish to know your place and are not in the top 15, count.

=20

Candi Murray

=20

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

=20



Jake Bigham

2005-04-27



Questions and comments on the change in race results at PIR:

Sorry this is so long; I don't have nearly the experience of most on

this list, so my remarks should be taken with more than a grain of

salt. Having said that:

Does this policy extend to all fields in all races? only PIR (due to

bunched sprint probability)? Only Tuesdays?

I am not sure what a quick review of the month's standings of the 3/4

would reveal, but my guess is that it would show only a handful of

riders have meaningful points. Of the 85 people who showed up for

yesterdays race there might be about 50 (probably more but for the sake

of argument) who will play no meaningful part in the prems or the final

sprint. Would it have been best for those people to just stay out of it

altogether?

Of the top finishers are a majority in the 3/4 field 3s? Would it be

best if the 4s who are not supporting a teammate stay out?

I recognize that due to the way PIR is (flat with fairly open curves

and exposure to prevailing winds) it leads to bunching and in the less

experienced fields (anything I will be in) there is a lot of accordion

action going on, some poor bike handling, people not holding their

line, confusion regarding neutralizing (even after tons of remarks on

this list about that), etc.. This leads to a higher probability of

crashes. I accept the risk and try to ride safely and with

sportsmanship. I anticipate slowdowns (which is usually pretty easy),

hold my line, and generally just remember not to take it too seriously

(after all, it is suppose to be fun). However, if I have an opened

line and can go without endangering myself or anyone else I will try to

go hard, not because I expect to beat Dan Watson, but because I want to

try to finish well (to me that might mean top 15) in a 3/4 field of 85

riders. For me, as a 48 year old 4 without much experience, it is a

significant challenge to do that. I have noticed that I am not alone in

a desire to take even 15th. Last evening I finished 20th and although I

realize that is nothing to be happy about I am still interested to see

how close I can come.

I completely understand the reasoning of limiting the placing to 15. I

realize it must make reviewing the tape a lot easier. I only ask you to

consider that we cannot remove the risk of poor judgment, mistakes,

accidents, bad sportsmanship, inexperience, and crashes with this

change.

No, I do not have to see my name on a placing to know if I am

improving, but I like it. It will be a little less fun for me to race

at PIR when we are only placing the top 15 and even then, there will

still be people sprinting for 65th place.

Sorry for such a long post -Jake Bigham



On Apr 27, 2005, at 9:18 AM, Ken Finch wrote:



 There was so much talk about this kind of thing on the

list this spring and yet these problems still happen.

People, please talk about and teach things like this

at your team meetings and to those you ride with. I

still believe it's only a small percentage of riders

who read this list. The only way to teach those people

who don't read it, about these issues is through the

teams and just talking to other riders. And let's make

an effort to mentor to new racers, whether on our

teams or not. There's a lot of them out there this

year.



It's too bad Candi had to do this, but I compeletly

understand why.



Ken Finch

Team S&M



--- Candi Murray <cmur-@obra.org> wrote:

 Last night there was a crash in the 3/4 field

because a rider was

sprinting for 49th place into the back of slowing

riders. To assist in

this not happening again in the future we will only

pick the top 15. If

you wish to know your place and are not in the top

15, count.



Candi Murray



To respond to the whole group send to

ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to

cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com



__________________________________________________

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Peter Murphy

2005-04-27





um...it happened in the 3/4 race...everyone there should know better...There

is a difference between bringing it home hard and bringing it home stupid..I

hope everyone involved is OK.



Pete Murphy



 From: Thom Schoenborn <th-@thomsplace.com>

Reply-To: th-@thomsplace.com

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] change in the results at PIR

Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 09:34:27 -0700



Not to create an echo chamber, but Ken's dead-on. Not many 4/5s riders have

coaches, teams, or even regulars that they ride with. And when I do ride

with someone more experienced, I can think of a million other questions I

ask *before* I heard this (on the list, by the way. I've never had someone

*tell* me this in two years of riding.)



So maybe a pre-race reminder is in order? Having come from a running and

swimming background, I learned to bring it home hard, no matter my placing.

It might seem obvious to you, but easing up if you're not in the top group

is very counter-intuitive for other sports.



TS





On Apr 27, 2005, at 9:18 AM, Ken Finch wrote:



 There was so much talk about this kind of thing on the

list this spring and yet these problems still happen.

People, please talk about and teach things like this

at your team meetings and to those you ride with. I

still believe it's only a small percentage of riders

who read this list. The only way to teach those people

who don't read it, about these issues is through the

teams and just talking to other riders. And let's make

an effort to mentor to new racers, whether on our

teams or not. There's a lot of them out there this

year.



It's too bad Candi had to do this, but I compeletly

understand why.



Ken Finch

Team S&M



--- Candi Murray <cmur-@obra.org> wrote:

 Last night there was a crash in the 3/4 field

because a rider was

sprinting for 49th place into the back of slowing

riders. To assist in

this not happening again in the future we will only

pick the top 15. If

you wish to know your place and are not in the top

15, count.



Candi Murray



To respond to the whole group send to

ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to

cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com



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Thom Schoenborn

2005-04-27



Not to create an echo chamber, but Ken's dead-on. Not many 4/5s riders

have coaches, teams, or even regulars that they ride with. And when I

do ride with someone more experienced, I can think of a million other

questions I ask *before* I heard this (on the list, by the way. I've

never had someone *tell* me this in two years of riding.)



So maybe a pre-race reminder is in order? Having come from a running

and swimming background, I learned to bring it home hard, no matter my

placing. It might seem obvious to you, but easing up if you're not in

the top group is very counter-intuitive for other sports.



TS





On Apr 27, 2005, at 9:18 AM, Ken Finch wrote:



 There was so much talk about this kind of thing on the

list this spring and yet these problems still happen.

People, please talk about and teach things like this

at your team meetings and to those you ride with. I

still believe it's only a small percentage of riders

who read this list. The only way to teach those people

who don't read it, about these issues is through the

teams and just talking to other riders. And let's make

an effort to mentor to new racers, whether on our

teams or not. There's a lot of them out there this

year.



It's too bad Candi had to do this, but I compeletly

understand why.



Ken Finch

Team S&M



--- Candi Murray <cmur-@obra.org> wrote:

 Last night there was a crash in the 3/4 field

because a rider was

sprinting for 49th place into the back of slowing

riders. To assist in

this not happening again in the future we will only

pick the top 15. If

you wish to know your place and are not in the top

15, count.



Candi Murray



To respond to the whole group send to

ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to

cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com



__________________________________________________

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To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

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To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com



Ken Finch

2005-04-27



There was so much talk about this kind of thing on the

list this spring and yet these problems still happen.

People, please talk about and teach things like this

at your team meetings and to those you ride with. I

still believe it's only a small percentage of riders

who read this list. The only way to teach those people

who don't read it, about these issues is through the

teams and just talking to other riders. And let's make

an effort to mentor to new racers, whether on our

teams or not. There's a lot of them out there this

year.



It's too bad Candi had to do this, but I compeletly

understand why.



Ken Finch

Team S&M



--- Candi Murray <cmur-@obra.org> wrote:

 Last night there was a crash in the 3/4 field

because a rider was

sprinting for 49th place into the back of slowing

riders. To assist in

this not happening again in the future we will only

pick the top 15. If

you wish to know your place and are not in the top

15, count.



Candi Murray



To respond to the whole group send to

ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to

cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com



__________________________________________________

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Neil Green

2005-04-27



You never know when the top 48 might take themselves out!!!!!    



Neil





Candi Murray wrote:

 

Last night there was a crash in the 3/4 field because a rider was

sprinting for 49th place into the back of slowing riders. To assist in

this not happening again in the future we will only pick the top 15. If

you wish to know your place and are not in the top 15, count.



Candi Murray



Clark Ritchie

2005-04-27



Chalk another up for natural selection?







 Last night there was a crash in the 3/4 field

because a rider was

sprinting for 49th place into the back of slowing

riders. To assist in

this not happening again in the future we will only

pick the top 15. If

you wish to know your place and are not in the top

15, count.



Candi Murray





__________________________________________________

Do You Yahoo!?

Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around

http://mail.yahoo.com



Candi Murray

2005-04-27



Last night there was a crash in the 3/4 field because a rider was

sprinting for 49th place into the back of slowing riders. To assist in

this not happening again in the future we will only pick the top 15. If

you wish to know your place and are not in the top 15, count.



Candi Murray