OBRA: OBRA Chat: PIR rant

PIR rant

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mike.m-@obra.org

2005-05-25

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The convention at PIR is that riders who are a lap down are allowed to ride

at the back of the pack and to ride so that they do not effect the outcome

of the race; i.e. they do not sprint, chase or lead out their teammates. To

ride in any other fashion is cheating.

Heather's placement on Monday despite not finishing is likely a number

identifying issue. If the number on the rider crossing the finish is hard

to read it will be misidentified as another number and then the bearer of

that number will be placed. Those unfamiliar with the process might think

that officials can tell the difference between each rider with their unique

appearances, for example, Heather is a women in a field of predominantly

men. This would be wrong. When doing the results the officials cannot be

expected to pick out the riders appearance in addition to their numbers for

the blurry partial images that are seen on the camera. If they were only

picking the top 5 riders that might be a reasonable request but there seems

to be a lot of support for the current practice of trying to place much

deeper into the field.

I guess the bottom line with all this stuff is that people need to have more

appreciation of how difficult it is to do race finish judging. I have

suggested that a more appropriate punishment for bad number placement would

be a racing suspension until the rider had worked as the finish judge for 3

races. That would straighten them out quickly, just ask Adam Curry.

Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----

From: Heather VanValkenburg [mailto:hvan-@msn.com]

Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2005 10:01 AM

To: Norrene.-@nike.com; cmur-@obra.org; ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] PIR rant

PIR officials-

Many times, I'm down a lap, especially when I ride with said "hot shots".

Does it help for myself and others to come tell you after the race (or

during when we're out there on our own.) Is it OK to still sprint for our

own sake if we are down, or better to just pull out at the barricade? I know

I was placed Monday night and I was down 2 laps here and there and didn't

even finish.

Heather VanValkenburg <http://graphics.hotmail.com/i.p.emcocktl.gif>

----Original Message Follows----

From: Norrene Godfrey <Norrene.-@nike.com>

Reply-To: Norrene.-@nike.com

To: Candi Murray <cmur-@obra.org>, "ob-@topica.com" <ob-@topica.com>

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] PIR rant

Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 09:55:16 -0700

I want to openly apologize for all the number issues that Candi and all the

other refs have been having with Rubicon.

We do not think we are hot shots, to good to wear numbers or cheat....we are

simply dumb-asses who keep screwing things up. Going forward we will make it

a priority to get our numbers right. Including me....Queen of all dumb

asses. I forgot my number last night so I grab another one out of my bag -

thinking that at least I have a number on; but that was wrong and I'm sorry.

Sorry.

Norrene; Queen of the dumb-asses =0)

On 5/25/05 9:24 AM, "Candi Murray" <cmur-@obra.org> wrote:

Numbers and number placement are non-trivial items. Placing riders is a

MAJOR pain in the ass IF all the numbers are visible and there are no

duplicates. If this is not the case the difficulty goes up

exponentially.

Even if you do not expect to place it is essential that you have a

number

placed in a spot that will be visible by camera. This is on your side

for

PIR and the track. At road venues the proper placement is one number on

the

side that the camera will be on and one low on the back where the follow

vehicle will be able to see it. The officials have to work hard enough

as

it is and taking tapes home to review them for hours, make corrections,

etc.

is really asking too much.

Not signing in is even more serious. The results are tabulated based on

sign in sheets. In addition, if you did not sign in there are insurance

coverage issues. There is also the issue of whether you paid. Bottom

line

is that this an offense that can be punished with suspension from

racing.

Unfortunately many of the top riders have started to not wear numbers or

sign in. I guess they have concluded that they are so important that

they

don't need to do this. I don't know how they conclude this since I have

never seen Lance Armstrong enter with out a number and he is surely more

notable. Last night at one point the camera shot the 12 riders in the

lead

and only 6 had visible numbers.

The officials have started to deal with this by simply ignoring riders

with

no visible number. Several riders last night placed highly but were not

listed in results. One has been racing since he was a junior and is now

in

his 40s. He has recently returned to the US. I would bet that he NEVER

entered a race in France with no number or one pinned on the wrong side.

Unfortunately this behavior tends to migrate down in category. If the

fast

guys don't wear a number then the slower guys won't wear numbers either

because they think that makes them look fast. Monday night the poor guy

that would have won the Cat 4/5 race, his first win ever, was not placed

because

of a number on the wrong side.

There are other behaviors that are common but wrong. Last night there

was

one rider who is a Cat 5, but who appears to have at least some

experience,

who entered 3/4s and then rode in and placed in the Cat 4/5s. He then

started with the Cat 1/2/3s rode with us until we passed the Cat 3/4

field.

He then joined that field and placed in the finish. At this point we

are

going to assume that he is just stupid but what we are really talking

about

here is cheating. The other common cheat is to have a rider sit out a

lap

and then re-join and effect he outcome of the race by chasing a break or

leading out a team mate.

The bottom line is that all the organizational stuff for bike racing is

hard

enough without also having to deal with crap like this. Don't

contribute to

the problem and when you see someone doing this sort of thing call them

on

it.

Mike Murray

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

Norrene Godfrey | Senior

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

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<DIV>The

convention at PIR is that riders who are a lap down are allowed to ride at the

back of the pack and to ride so that they do not effect the outcome of the race;

i.e. they do not sprint, chase or lead out their teammates. To ride in any

other fashion is cheating.</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>Heather's placement on Monday despite not finishing is likely a number

identifying issue. If the number on the rider crossing the finish is hard

to read it will be misidentified as another number and then the bearer of that

number will be placed. Those unfamiliar with the process might think that

officials can tell the difference between each rider with their unique

appearances, for example, Heather is a women in a field of predominantly

men. This would be wrong. When doing the results the officials

cannot be expected to pick out the riders appearance in addition to their

numbers for the blurry partial images that are seen on the camera. If they

were only picking the top 5 riders that might be a reasonable request but there

seems to be a lot of support for the current practice of trying to place much

deeper into the field.</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>I

guess the bottom line with all this stuff is that people need to have more

appreciation of how difficult it is to do race finish judging. I have

suggested that a more appropriate punishment for bad number placement would be a

racing suspension until the rider had worked as the finish judge for 3

races. That would straighten them out quickly, just ask Adam Curry.

</DIV>

Mike Murray 

<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>-----Original Message----- From: Heather

VanValkenburg [mailto:hvan-@msn.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 25,

2005 10:01 AM To: Norrene.-@nike.com; cmur-@obra.org;

ob-@topica.com Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] PIR

rant </DIV>

<DIV>

PIR officials-

Many times, I'm down a lap, especially when I ride with said "hot shots".

Does it help for myself and others to come tell you after the race (or during

when we're out there on our own.) Is it OK to still sprint for our own sake if

we are down, or better to just pull out at the barricade? I know I was placed

Monday night and I was down 2 laps here and there and didn't even

finish. Heather

VanValkenburg<IMG height=19

src="http://graphics.hotmail.com/i.p.emcocktl.gif" width=19

NOSEND="1"> ----Original Message Follows---- From:

Norrene Godfrey <Norrene.-@nike.com> Reply-To:

Norrene.-@nike.com To: Candi Murray <cmur-@obra.org>,

"ob-@topica.com" <ob-@topica.com> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] PIR

rant Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 09:55:16 -0700 I want to openly

apologize for all the number issues that Candi and all the other refs have

been having with Rubicon. We do not think we are hot shots, to good to

wear numbers or cheat....we are simply dumb-asses who keep screwing things

up. Going forward we will make it a priority to get our numbers right.

Including me....Queen of all dumb asses. I forgot my number last night so I

grab another one out of my bag - thinking that at least I have a number on;

but that was wrong and I'm sorry. Sorry. Norrene; Queen of the

dumb-asses =0) On 5/25/05 9:24 AM, "Candi Murray"

<cmur-@obra.org> wrote: > > Numbers and number

placement are non-trivial items. Placing riders is a > MAJOR pain in the

ass IF all the numbers are visible and there are no > duplicates. If

this is not the case the difficulty goes up > exponentially. >

Even if you do not expect to place it is essential that you have a >

number > placed in a spot that will be visible by camera. This is on

your side > for > PIR and the track. At road venues the proper

placement is one number on > the > side that the camera will be on

and one low on the back where the follow > vehicle will be able to see

it. The officials have to work hard enough > as > it is and taking

tapes home to review them for hours, make corrections, > etc. > is

really asking too much. > > Not signing in is even more serious.

The results are tabulated based on > sign in sheets. In addition, if you

did not sign in there are insurance > coverage issues. There is also the

issue of whether you paid. Bottom > line > is that this an offense

that can be punished with suspension from > racing. > >

Unfortunately many of the top riders have started to not wear numbers

or > sign in. I guess they have concluded that they are so important

that > they > don't need to do this. I don't know how they

conclude this since I have > never seen Lance Armstrong enter with out a

number and he is surely more > notable. Last night at one point the

camera shot the 12 riders in the > lead > and only 6 had visible

numbers. > > The officials have started to deal with this by

simply ignoring riders > with > no visible number. Several riders

last night placed highly but were not > listed in results. One has been

racing since he was a junior and is now > in > his 40s. He has

recently returned to the US. I would bet that he NEVER > entered a race

in France with no number or one pinned on the wrong

side. > > > Unfortunately this behavior tends to migrate

down in category. If the > fast > guys don't wear a number then

the slower guys won't wear numbers either > because they think that

makes them look fast. Monday night the poor guy > that would have won

the Cat 4/5 race, his first win ever, was not placed > because >

of a number on the wrong side. > > There are other behaviors that

are common but wrong. Last night there > was > one rider who is a

Cat 5, but who appears to have at least some > experience, > who

entered 3/4s and then rode in and placed in the Cat 4/5s. He then >

started with the Cat 1/2/3s rode with us until we passed the Cat 3/4 >

field. > He then joined that field and placed in the finish. At this

point we > are > going to assume that he is just stupid but what

we are really talking > about > here is cheating. The other common

cheat is to have a rider sit out a > lap > and then re-join and

effect he outcome of the race by chasing a break or > leading out a team

mate. > > The bottom line is that all the organizational stuff for

bike racing is > hard > enough without also having to deal with

crap like this. Don't > contribute to > the problem and when you

see someone doing this sort of thing call them > on >

it. > > Mike Murray > > To respond to the whole group

send to ob-@topica.com. > To respond to the list manager send to

cmur-@obra.org > To unsubscribe send to

obra-uns-@topica.com > > > > > Norrene

Godfrey | Senior <PRE>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com</PRE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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David Hart

2005-05-25

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Not to "police" everyone but yes, if riders help each other out by telling a racer not to pirate or to put his/her number on correctly, it could help. If they are in the wrong field & you know it, call them out nicely. You can tell an official without being known.

The insurance part is tricky. A rider that does not pay or sign a waiver puts a lot of burden on OBRA. It could get messy for OBRA and the unpaying rider if there was a mishap that the rider is found liable for.

As an official, I don't like not placing riders or giving warnings or recommend a suspension. This is supposed to be fun!

I like it when a rider comes up and asks, "Can you read my number?" That is great!

David Hart

North River Racing

Vancouver, Washington

----- Original Message -----

From: Brad Cockman, DC<mailto:bra-@bigfoot.com>

To: ob-@topica.com<mailto:ob-@topica.com>

Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2005 12:15 PM

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] PIR rant

Not a justification, but pinning on numbers is a pain in the patootie.

Since I hate doing it I just keep one jersey pinned up all season and

wash it inside out. Just use good pins that won't leave a rust mark. I'm

sure this is not cutting-edge info, just trying to help.

On a related note, an obvious rookie that parked near me had his number

pinned to his back and chest and asked me if this was okay. I said

"sure, just turn towards the camera when you finish."

Nahh... I set him straight.

John Lombard wrote:

> Unfortunately all of these kind gestures of having friendly reminders,

> checking before races, etc, have all been tried. The problem is that

> there are people that come out to race at PIR and use it for training

> and don't take it as seriously as say a weekend race. I have heard many

> people say that they aren't pinning their number on, signing in, or

> paying an entry fee, because they are just out for the ride or the

> training. It is a race, the promoter pays insurance, OBRA fees,etc--it

> is a real race.

>

> The only way to solve the problem is to have consequences for the

> actions.

> -caught racing with no number-SUSPENDED!

> -caught racing without signing-SUSPENDED!

>

> Just my two cents, knowing how frustrating it is from an Officials point

> of view.

>

> -John Lombard

>

>

>

> Jake Bigham <jake@

> chesshirarchitecture.com> wrote:

> How about this also:

> It would be a kind gesture for riders who notice someone without a

> number (or # on the wrong side) to ride up and give a friendly reminder

> to the numberless cyclist. This could save a lot of headache for

> officials and for the forgetful racer, and it seems appropriate to

> amateur athletics. this could happen in the sign-in, warming up in the

> infield, out at the parking, wherever.

>

> On May 25, 2005, at 10:20 AM, Tim Schauer wrote:

>

> > How about this?

> >

> > If before a PIR race starts, the officials ask the field if everyone

> > has a number. Ask the field to look at the riders around them...and

> > then anyone caught in the starting field without a number, is not

> > permitted to start. They are warned, their OBRA team rep (if they are

> > on a team) is notified, and if caught again, suspend their license,

> > and give the promoter the option of restricting them from entering PIR

> > races they promote.

> >

> > Even a short walk through of the field before the start, by the second

> > official, will catch a few (not all) violators. It seems an approach

> > like this will only take a short while to encourage compliance, and

> > only take a few minutes before the race starts. Even if that means one

> > less lap for that field. If riders know that the officials are going

> > to walk through the field looking for violators, it will deter them

> > from attempting to pirate the race. The more this delays the start of

> > a race, or shortens it, the more frustrated the rest of the field will

> > be and peer pressure will build in the groups to root out this

> > behavior.

> >

> > -Tim "Just a suggestion" Schauer,

> > Team President, Columbia River Velo

> >

> > From: Gary Malcolm [mailto:gary.m-@gmail.com]

> > Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2005 9:44 AM

> > To: ob-@topica.com<mailto:ob-@topica.com>

> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] PIR rant

> >

> >

> > Go Mike!

> >

> > The number issue will resolve itself if you can get the hutzpah to

> > stick to your guns and just IGNORE any rider W/O their number! It will

> > only takes one or two missed placements to get that through the

> > dumbest roadies head... even mine. I'll wager you'll have do-gooders

> > wandering the pre-race lineup checking number placements before the

> > start of every field. Perhaps you should just add this as an OBRA

> > by-law ( if it isn't already). Maybe the follow car could even pick

> > out riders to DQ during the race.

> >

> > The cheating thing is a whole other issue. This is very bad indeed.

> > Perhaps piling on the suspensions, killing BAR points, subtracting

> > team BAR points, team suspensions or just plain old license

> > revocation would get folks to toe up to the ol' honesty line through

> > shame and peer pressure.

> >

> > Didn't they just throw a hand pump into the spokes in the old days?

> >

> > Just kidding!

> >

> > Gary Malcolm

> >

> >

> > --

> > . . . . . .__o

> > . . . . . .\<,

> > . . . . ( )/ ( )

> > To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com<mailto:ob-@topica.com>.

> > To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org<mailto:cmur-@obra.org>

> > To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com<mailto:obra-uns-@topica.com>

>

> To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com<mailto:ob-@topica.com>.

> To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org<mailto:cmur-@obra.org>

> To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com<mailto:obra-uns-@topica.com>

>

>

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com<mailto:ob-@topica.com>.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org<mailto:cmur-@obra.org>

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com<mailto:obra-uns-@topica.com>

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<DIV>

<DIV>Not to "police" everyone but yes, if riders help each other out by telling

a racer not to pirate or to put his/her number on correctly, it could

help. If they are in the wrong field & you know it, call them out

nicely. You can tell an official without being known. </DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>The insurance part is tricky. A rider that does not pay or sign a

waiver puts a lot of burden on OBRA. It could get messy for OBRA and the

unpaying rider if there was a mishap that the rider is found liable for.</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>As an official, I don't like not placing riders or giving warnings or

recommend a suspension. This is supposed to be fun!</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>I like it when a rider comes up and asks, "Can you read my number?"

That is great! </DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>David Hart North River Racing Vancouver, Washington</DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE

style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">From: <A title=mailto:bra-@bigfoot.com

href="mailto:bra-@bigfoot.com">Brad Cockman, DC</A> </DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">To: <A title=mailto:ob-@topica.com

href="mailto:ob-@topica.com">ob-@topica.com</A> </DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2005 12:15

PM</DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] PIR rant</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>Not a justification, but pinning on numbers is a pain in the

patootie. Since I hate doing it I just keep one jersey pinned up all

season and wash it inside out. Just use good pins that won't leave a rust

mark. I'm sure this is not cutting-edge info, just trying to

help. On a related note, an obvious rookie that parked near me had his

number pinned to his back and chest and asked me if this was okay. I said

 "sure, just turn towards the camera when you finish." Nahh... I set

him straight. John Lombard wrote: > Unfortunately all of

these kind gestures of having friendly reminders, > checking before

races, etc, have all been tried. The problem is that > there are people

that come out to race at PIR and use it for training > and don't take

it as seriously as say a weekend race. I have heard many > people say

that they aren't pinning their number on, signing in, or > paying an

entry fee, because they are just out for the ride or the > training. It

is a race, the promoter pays insurance, OBRA fees,etc--it > is a real

race. > > The only way to solve the problem is to have

consequences for the > actions. >

-caught racing with no number-SUSPENDED! >

-caught racing without signing-SUSPENDED! > > Just my two

cents, knowing how frustrating it is from an Officials point > of view.

 > > -John Lombard > > > >

Jake Bigham <jake@ > chesshirarchitecture.com> wrote: > How

about this also: > It would be a kind gesture for riders who notice

someone without a > number (or # on the wrong side) to ride up and give

a friendly reminder > to the numberless cyclist. This could save a lot

of headache for > officials and for the forgetful racer, and it seems

appropriate to > amateur athletics. this could happen in the sign-in,

warming up in the > infield, out at the parking, wherever. >

 > On May 25, 2005, at 10:20 AM, Tim Schauer wrote: > >

> How about this? > > > > If before a PIR race

starts, the officials ask the field if everyone > > has a number.

Ask the field to look at the riders around them...and > > then

anyone caught in the starting field without a number, is not > >

permitted to start. They are warned, their OBRA team rep (if they are >

> on a team) is notified, and if caught again, suspend their license,

 > > and give the promoter the option of restricting them from

entering PIR > > races they promote. > > >

> Even a short walk through of the field before the start, by the second

 > > official, will catch a few (not all) violators. It seems an

approach > > like this will only take a short while to encourage

compliance, and > > only take a few minutes before the race starts.

Even if that means one > > less lap for that field. If riders know

that the officials are going > > to walk through the field looking

for violators, it will deter them > > from attempting to pirate the

race. The more this delays the start of > > a race, or shortens it,

the more frustrated the rest of the field will > > be and peer

pressure will build in the groups to root out this > >

behavior. > > > > -Tim "Just a suggestion"

Schauer, > > Team President, Columbia River Velo > > >

> From: Gary Malcolm [mailto:gary.m-@gmail.com] > > Sent:

Wednesday, May 25, 2005 9:44 AM > > To: <A

title=mailto:ob-@topica.com

href="mailto:ob-@topica.com">ob-@topica.com</A> > > Subject: Re:

[OBRA Chat] PIR rant > > > > > > Go Mike! >

> > > The number issue will resolve itself if you can get the

hutzpah to > > stick to your guns and just IGNORE any rider W/O

their number! It will > > only takes one or two missed

placements to get that through the > > dumbest roadies head...

even mine. I'll wager you'll have do-gooders > > wandering the

pre-race lineup checking number placements before the > > start of

every field. Perhaps you should just add this as an OBRA > > by-law

( if it isn't already). Maybe the follow car could even pick > > out

riders to DQ during the race. > > > > The cheating thing is

a whole other issue. This is very bad indeed. > > Perhaps piling on

the suspensions, killing BAR points, subtracting > > team BAR

points, team suspensions or just plain old license > >

revocation would get folks to toe up to the ol' honesty line through >

> shame and peer pressure. > > > > Didn't they just throw

a hand pump into the spokes in the old days? > > > > Just

kidding! > > > > Gary Malcolm > > >

> > > -- > > . . . . . .__o > > . . . .

.\<, > > . . . . ( )/ ( ) > > To respond to the whole

group send to <A title=mailto:ob-@topica.com

href="mailto:ob-@topica.com">ob-@topica.com</A>. > > To respond to

the list manager send to <A title=mailto:cmur-@obra.org

href="mailto:cmur-@obra.org">cmur-@obra.org</A> > > To

unsubscribe send to <A title=mailto:obra-uns-@topica.com

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Brad Cockman, DC

2005-05-25

Not a justification, but pinning on numbers is a pain in the patootie.

Since I hate doing it I just keep one jersey pinned up all season and

wash it inside out. Just use good pins that won't leave a rust mark. I'm

sure this is not cutting-edge info, just trying to help.

On a related note, an obvious rookie that parked near me had his number

pinned to his back and chest and asked me if this was okay. I said

"sure, just turn towards the camera when you finish."

Nahh... I set him straight.

John Lombard wrote:

Unfortunately all of these kind gestures of having friendly reminders,

checking before races, etc, have all been tried. The problem is that

there are people that come out to race at PIR and use it for training

and don't take it as seriously as say a weekend race. I have heard many

people say that they aren't pinning their number on, signing in, or

paying an entry fee, because they are just out for the ride or the

training. It is a race, the promoter pays insurance, OBRA fees,etc--it

is a real race.

The only way to solve the problem is to have consequences for the

actions.

-caught racing with no number-SUSPENDED!

-caught racing without signing-SUSPENDED!

Just my two cents, knowing how frustrating it is from an Officials point

of view.

-John Lombard

Jake Bigham <jake@

chesshirarchitecture.com> wrote:

How about this also:

It would be a kind gesture for riders who notice someone without a

number (or # on the wrong side) to ride up and give a friendly reminder

to the numberless cyclist. This could save a lot of headache for

officials and for the forgetful racer, and it seems appropriate to

amateur athletics. this could happen in the sign-in, warming up in the

infield, out at the parking, wherever.

On May 25, 2005, at 10:20 AM, Tim Schauer wrote:

How about this?

If before a PIR race starts, the officials ask the field if everyone

has a number. Ask the field to look at the riders around them...and

then anyone caught in the starting field without a number, is not

permitted to start. They are warned, their OBRA team rep (if they are

on a team) is notified, and if caught again, suspend their license,

and give the promoter the option of restricting them from entering PIR

races they promote.

Even a short walk through of the field before the start, by the second

official, will catch a few (not all) violators. It seems an approach

like this will only take a short while to encourage compliance, and

only take a few minutes before the race starts. Even if that means one

less lap for that field. If riders know that the officials are going

to walk through the field looking for violators, it will deter them

from attempting to pirate the race. The more this delays the start of

a race, or shortens it, the more frustrated the rest of the field will

be and peer pressure will build in the groups to root out this

behavior.

-Tim "Just a suggestion" Schauer,

Team President, Columbia River Velo

From: Gary Malcolm [mailto:gary.m-@gmail.com]

Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2005 9:44 AM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] PIR rant

Go Mike!

The number issue will resolve itself if you can get the hutzpah to

stick to your guns and just IGNORE any rider W/O their number! It will

only takes one or two missed placements to get that through the

dumbest roadies head... even mine. I'll wager you'll have do-gooders

wandering the pre-race lineup checking number placements before the

start of every field. Perhaps you should just add this as an OBRA

by-law ( if it isn't already). Maybe the follow car could even pick

out riders to DQ during the race.

The cheating thing is a whole other issue. This is very bad indeed.

Perhaps piling on the suspensions, killing BAR points, subtracting

team BAR points, team suspensions or just plain old license

revocation would get folks to toe up to the ol' honesty line through

shame and peer pressure.

Didn't they just throw a hand pump into the spokes in the old days?

Just kidding!

Gary Malcolm

--

. . . . . .__o

. . . . . .\<,

. . . . ( )/ ( )

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

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John Lombard

2005-05-25

--0-1121543124-1117044362=:81028

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Unfortunately all of these kind gestures of having friendly reminders, checking before races, etc, have all been tried. The problem is that there are people that come out to race at PIR and use it for training and don't take it as seriously as say a weekend race. I have heard many people say that they aren't pinning their number on, signing in, or paying an entry fee, because they are just out for the ride or the training. It is a race, the promoter pays insurance, OBRA fees,etc--it is a real race.

The only way to solve the problem is to have consequences for the actions.

-caught racing with no number-SUSPENDED!

-caught racing without signing-SUSPENDED!

Just my two cents, knowing how frustrating it is from an Officials point of view.

-John Lombard

Jake Bigham <jake@

chesshirarchitecture.com> wrote:

How about this also:

It would be a kind gesture for riders who notice someone without a

number (or # on the wrong side) to ride up and give a friendly reminder

to the numberless cyclist. This could save a lot of headache for

officials and for the forgetful racer, and it seems appropriate to

amateur athletics. this could happen in the sign-in, warming up in the

infield, out at the parking, wherever.

On May 25, 2005, at 10:20 AM, Tim Schauer wrote:

How about this?

If before a PIR race starts, the officials ask the field if everyone

has a number. Ask the field to look at the riders around them...and

then anyone caught in the starting field without a number, is not

permitted to start. They are warned, their OBRA team rep (if they are

on a team) is notified, and if caught again, suspend their license,

and give the promoter the option of restricting them from entering PIR

races they promote.

Even a short walk through of the field before the start, by the second

official, will catch a few (not all) violators. It seems an approach

like this will only take a short while to encourage compliance, and

only take a few minutes before the race starts. Even if that means one

less lap for that field. If riders know that the officials are going

to walk through the field looking for violators, it will deter them

from attempting to pirate the race. The more this delays the start of

a race, or shortens it, the more frustrated the rest of the field will

be and peer pressure will build in the groups to root out this

behavior.

-Tim "Just a suggestion" Schauer,

Team President, Columbia River Velo

From: Gary Malcolm [mailto:gary.m-@gmail.com]

Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2005 9:44 AM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] PIR rant

Go Mike!

The number issue will resolve itself if you can get the hutzpah to

stick to your guns and just IGNORE any rider W/O their number! It will

only takes one or two missed placements to get that through the

dumbest roadies head... even mine. I'll wager you'll have do-gooders

wandering the pre-race lineup checking number placements before the

start of every field. Perhaps you should just add this as an OBRA

by-law ( if it isn't already). Maybe the follow car could even pick

out riders to DQ during the race.

The cheating thing is a whole other issue. This is very bad indeed.

Perhaps piling on the suspensions, killing BAR points, subtracting

team BAR points, team suspensions or just plain old license

revocation would get folks to toe up to the ol' honesty line through

shame and peer pressure.

Didn't they just throw a hand pump into the spokes in the old days?

Just kidding!

Gary Malcolm

--

. . . . . .__o

. . . . . .\<,

. . . . ( )/ ( )

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

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--0-1121543124-1117044362=:81028

Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

<DIV>Unfortunately all of these kind gestures of having friendly reminders, checking before races, etc, have all been tried. The problem is that there are people that come out to race at PIR and use it for training and don't take it as seriously as say a weekend race. I have heard many people say that they aren't pinning their number on, signing in, or paying an entry fee, because they are just out for the ride or the training. It is a race, the promoter pays insurance, OBRA fees,etc--it is a real race. </DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>The only way to solve the problem is to have consequences for the actions. </DIV>

<DIV> -caught racing with no number-SUSPENDED!</DIV>

<DIV> -caught racing without signing-SUSPENDED!</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>Just my two cents, knowing how frustrating it is from an Officials point of view. </DIV>

<DIV> -John Lombard</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV> Jake Bigham <jake@</DIV>

<DIV>chesshirarchitecture.com> wrote:</DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">How about this also: It would be a kind gesture for riders who notice someone without a number (or # on the wrong side) to ride up and give a friendly reminder to the numberless cyclist. This could save a lot of headache for officials and for the forgetful racer, and it seems appropriate to amateur athletics. this could happen in the sign-in, warming up in the infield, out at the parking, wherever. On May 25, 2005, at 10:20 AM, Tim Schauer wrote: > How about this? > > If before a PIR race starts, the officials ask the field if everyone > has a number. Ask the field to look at the riders around them...and > then anyone caught in the starting field without a number, is not > permitted to start. They are warned, their OBRA team rep (if they are > on a team) is notified, and if caught

again, suspend their license, > and give the promoter the option of restricting them from entering PIR > races they promote. > > Even a short walk through of the field before the start, by the second > official, will catch a few (not all) violators. It seems an approach > like this will only take a short while to encourage compliance, and > only take a few minutes before the race starts. Even if that means one > less lap for that field. If riders know that the officials are going > to walk through the field looking for violators, it will deter them > from attempting to pirate the race. The more this delays the start of > a race, or shortens it, the more frustrated the rest of the field will > be and peer pressure will build in the groups to root out this > behavior. > > -Tim "Just a suggestion" Schauer, > Team President, Columbia River Velo > > From:

Gary Malcolm [mailto:gary.m-@gmail.com] > Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2005 9:44 AM > To: ob-@topica.com > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] PIR rant > > > Go Mike! > > The number issue will resolve itself if you can get the hutzpah to > stick to your guns and just IGNORE any rider W/O their number! It will > only takes one or two missed placements to get that through the > dumbest roadies head... even mine. I'll wager you'll have do-gooders > wandering the pre-race lineup checking number placements before the > start of every field. Perhaps you should just add this as an OBRA > by-law ( if it isn't already). Maybe the follow car could even pick > out riders to DQ during the race. > > The cheating thing is a whole other issue. This is very bad indeed. > Perhaps piling on the suspensions, killing BAR points, subtracting > team BAR points, team

--0-1121543124-1117044362=:81028--

Jake Bigham

2005-05-25

--Apple-Mail-3--850005562

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Content-Type: text/plain;

charset=ISO-8859-1;

format=flowed

How about this also:

It would be a kind gesture for riders who notice someone without a

number (or # on the wrong side) to ride up and give a friendly reminder

to the numberless cyclist. This could save a lot of headache for

officials and for the forgetful racer, and it seems appropriate to

amateur athletics. this could happen in the sign-in, warming up in the

infield, out at the parking, wherever.

On May 25, 2005, at 10:20 AM, Tim Schauer wrote:

How about this?

?

If before?a PIR?race starts, the officials ask the field if everyone

has a number. Ask the field to look at the riders around them...and

then anyone caught in the starting field without a number,?is not

permitted to start. They are warned, their OBRA team rep (if they are

on a team) is notified, and if caught again, suspend their license,

and give the promoter the option of restricting them from entering PIR

races they promote.

?

Even a short walk through of the field before the start, by the second

official, will catch a few (not all) violators. It seems an approach

like this will only take a short while to encourage compliance, and

only take a few minutes before the race starts. Even if that means one

less lap for that field. If riders know that the officials are going

to walk through the field looking for violators, it will deter them

from attempting to pirate the race. The more this delays the start of

a race, or shortens it, the more frustrated the rest of the field will

be and peer pressure will build in the groups to root out this

behavior.

?

-Tim "Just a suggestion" Schauer,

Team President, Columbia River Velo

From: Gary Malcolm [mailto:gary.m-@gmail.com]

Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2005 9:44 AM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] PIR rant

Go Mike!

The number issue will resolve itself if you can get the hutzpah to

stick to your guns and just IGNORE any rider W/O their number! It will

only takes one or two? missed placements? to get that through the

dumbest roadies head... even mine. I'll wager you'll have do-gooders

wandering the pre-race lineup checking number placements before the

start of every field. Perhaps you should just add this as an OBRA

by-law ( if it isn't already). Maybe the follow car could even pick

out riders to DQ during the race.

The cheating thing is a whole other issue. This is very bad indeed.

Perhaps piling on the suspensions, killing BAR points, subtracting

team BAR points,? team suspensions or just plain old license

revocation would get folks to toe up to the ol' honesty line through

shame and peer pressure.

Didn't they just throw a hand pump into the spokes in the old days?

Just kidding!

Gary Malcolm

--

. . . . . .__o

. . . . . .\<,

. . . . ( )/ ( )

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

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How about this also:

It would be a kind gesture for riders who notice someone without a

number (or # on the wrong side) to ride up and give a friendly

reminder to the numberless cyclist. This could save a lot of headache

for officials and for the forgetful racer, and it seems appropriate to

amateur athletics. this could happen in the sign-in, warming up in the

infield, out at the parking, wherever.=20

On May 25, 2005, at 10:20 AM, Tim Schauer wrote:

=

<excerpt><fontfamily><param>Arial</param><color><param>0000,0000,FFFF</par=

am><smaller>How

about this?</smaller></color></fontfamily>

=A0

=

<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><color><param>0000,0000,FFFF</param><small=

er>If

before=A0a PIR=A0race starts, the officials ask the field if everyone =

has

a number. Ask the field to look at the riders around them...and then

anyone caught in the starting field without a number,=A0is not permitted

to start. They are warned, their OBRA team rep (if they are on a team)

is notified, and if caught again, suspend their license, and give the

promoter the option of restricting them from entering PIR races they

promote.</smaller></color></fontfamily>

=A0

=

<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><color><param>0000,0000,FFFF</param><small=

er>Even

a short walk through of the field before the start, by the second

official, will catch a few (not all) violators. It seems an approach

like this will only take a short while to encourage compliance, and

only take a few minutes before the race starts. Even if that means one

less lap for that field. If riders know that the officials are going

to walk through the field looking for violators, it will deter them

from attempting to pirate the race. The more this delays the start of

a race, or shortens it, the more frustrated the rest of the field will

be and peer pressure will build in the groups to root out this

behavior.</smaller></color></fontfamily>

=A0

=

<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><color><param>0000,0000,FFFF</param><small=

er>-Tim

"Just a suggestion" Schauer,</smaller></color></fontfamily>

=

<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><color><param>0000,0000,FFFF</param><small=

er>Team

President, Columbia River Velo</smaller></color></fontfamily>

=

<bold><fontfamily><param>Tahoma</param><smaller>From:</smaller></fontfamil=

y></bold><fontfamily><param>Tahoma</param><smaller>

Gary Malcolm [mailto:gary.m-@gmail.com]</smaller></fontfamily>

=

<bold><fontfamily><param>Tahoma</param><smaller>Sent:</smaller></fontfamil=

y></bold><fontfamily><param>Tahoma</param><smaller>

Wednesday, May 25, 2005 9:44 AM</smaller></fontfamily>

=

<bold><fontfamily><param>Tahoma</param><smaller>To:</smaller></fontfamily>=

</bold><fontfamily><param>Tahoma</param><smaller>

ob-@topica.com</smaller></fontfamily>

=

<bold><fontfamily><param>Tahoma</param><smaller>Subject:</smaller></fontfa=

mily></bold><fontfamily><param>Tahoma</param><smaller>

Re: [OBRA Chat] PIR rant</smaller></fontfamily>

Go Mike!

The number issue will resolve itself if you can get the hutzpah to

stick to your guns and just IGNORE any rider W/O their number! It will

only takes one or two=A0 missed placements=A0 to get that through the

dumbest roadies head... even mine. I'll wager you'll have do-gooders

wandering the pre-race lineup checking number placements before the

start of every field. Perhaps you should just add this as an OBRA

by-law ( if it isn't already). Maybe the follow car could even pick

out riders to DQ during the race.

The cheating thing is a whole other issue. This is very bad indeed.

Perhaps piling on the suspensions, killing BAR points, subtracting

team BAR points,=A0 team suspensions or just plain old license

revocation would get folks to toe up to the ol' honesty line through

shame and peer pressure.=20

Didn't they just throw a hand pump into the spokes in the old days?=20

Just kidding!

Gary Malcolm

--=20

. . . . . .__o

. . . . . .\<<,

. . . . ( )/ ( )

<fixed>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com</fixed>

=

</excerpt>=

--Apple-Mail-3--850005562--

Tim Schauer

2005-05-25

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C5614D.FBD192F4

Content-Type: text/plain;

charset="us-ascii"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

How about this?

If before a PIR race starts, the officials ask the field if everyone has

a number. Ask the field to look at the riders around them...and then

anyone caught in the starting field without a number, is not permitted

to start. They are warned, their OBRA team rep (if they are on a team)

is notified, and if caught again, suspend their license, and give the

promoter the option of restricting them from entering PIR races they

promote.

Even a short walk through of the field before the start, by the second

official, will catch a few (not all) violators. It seems an approach

like this will only take a short while to encourage compliance, and only

take a few minutes before the race starts. Even if that means one less

lap for that field. If riders know that the officials are going to walk

through the field looking for violators, it will deter them from

attempting to pirate the race. The more this delays the start of a race,

or shortens it, the more frustrated the rest of the field will be and

peer pressure will build in the groups to root out this behavior.

-Tim "Just a suggestion" Schauer,

Team President, Columbia River Velo

________________________________

From: Gary Malcolm [mailto:gary.m-@gmail.com]

Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2005 9:44 AM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] PIR rant

Go Mike!

The number issue will resolve itself if you can get the hutzpah to stick

to your guns and just IGNORE any rider W/O their number! It will only

takes one or two missed placements to get that through the dumbest

roadies head... even mine. I'll wager you'll have do-gooders wandering

the pre-race lineup checking number placements before the start of every

field. Perhaps you should just add this as an OBRA by-law ( if it isn't

already). Maybe the follow car could even pick out riders to DQ during

the race.

The cheating thing is a whole other issue. This is very bad indeed.

Perhaps piling on the suspensions, killing BAR points, subtracting team

BAR points, team suspensions or just plain old license revocation would

get folks to toe up to the ol' honesty line through shame and peer

pressure.

Didn't they just throw a hand pump into the spokes in the old days?

Just kidding!

Gary Malcolm

--

. . . . . .__o

. . . . . .\<,

. . . . ( )/ ( )

------_=_NextPart_001_01C5614D.FBD192F4

Content-Type: text/html;

charset="us-ascii"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">

<HTML><HEAD>

<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=us-ascii">

<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1400" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>

<BODY>

<DIV dir=ltr align=left>How about this?</DIV>

<DIV dir=ltr align=left> </DIV>

<DIV dir=ltr align=left>If before a PIR race starts, the officials ask

the field if everyone has a number. Ask the field to look at the riders around

them...and then anyone caught in the starting field without a number, is

not permitted to start. They are warned, their OBRA team rep (if they are on a

team) is notified, and if caught again, suspend their license, and give the

promoter the option of restricting them from entering PIR races they

promote.</DIV>

<DIV dir=ltr align=left> </DIV>

<DIV dir=ltr align=left>Even a short walk through of the field before the start, by

the second official, will catch a few (not all) violators. It seems an approach

like this will only take a short while to encourage compliance, and only take a

few minutes before the race starts. Even if that means one less lap for that

field. If riders know that the officials are going to walk through the field

looking for violators, it will deter them from attempting to pirate the race.

The more this delays the start of a race, or shortens it, the more frustrated

the rest of the field will be and peer pressure will build in the groups to root

out this behavior.</DIV>

<DIV dir=ltr align=left> </DIV>

<DIV dir=ltr align=left>-Tim "Just a suggestion" Schauer, </DIV>

<DIV dir=ltr align=left>Team President, Columbia River Velo</DIV> 

<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>

<HR tabIndex=-1>

From: Gary Malcolm

[mailto:gary.m-@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2005 9:44

AM To: ob-@topica.com Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] PIR

rant </DIV>

<DIV></DIV> Go Mike! The number issue will resolve itself if you can

get the hutzpah to stick to your guns and just IGNORE any rider W/O their

number! It will only takes one or two missed placements to get that

through the dumbest roadies head... even mine. I'll wager you'll have do-gooders

wandering the pre-race lineup checking number placements before the start of

every field. Perhaps you should just add this as an OBRA by-law ( if it isn't

already). Maybe the follow car could even pick out riders to DQ during the

race. The cheating thing is a whole other issue. This is very bad indeed.

Perhaps piling on the suspensions, killing BAR points, subtracting team BAR

points, team suspensions or just plain old license revocation would get

folks to toe up to the ol' honesty line through shame and peer pressure.

 Didn't they just throw a hand pump into the spokes in the old days?

 Just kidding! Gary Malcolm -- . . . . . .__o .

. . . . .\<, . . . . ( )/ ( ) </BODY></HTML>

------_=_NextPart_001_01C5614D.FBD192F4--

Heather VanValkenburg, Fdg.

2005-05-25

<html><div style='background-color:'>PIR officials-

Many times, I'm down a lap, especially when I ride with said "hot shots". Does it help for myself and others to come tell you after the race (or during when we're out there on our own.) Is it OK to still sprint for our own sake if we are down, or better to just pull out at the barricade? I know I was placed Monday night and I was down 2 laps here and there and didn't even finish. Heather VanValkenburg<IMG height=19 src="http://graphics.hotmail.com/i.p.emcocktl.gif" width=19> ----Original Message Follows---- From: Norrene Godfrey <Norrene.-@nike.com> Reply-To: Norrene.-@nike.com To: Candi Murray <cmur-@obra.org>, "ob-@topica.com" <ob-@topica.com> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] PIR rant Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 09:55:16

-0700 I want to openly apologize for all the number issues that Candi and all the other refs have been having with Rubicon. We do not think we are hot shots, to good to wear numbers or cheat....we are simply dumb-asses who keep screwing things up. Going forward we will make it a priority to get our numbers right. Including me....Queen of all dumb asses. I forgot my number last night so I grab another one out of my bag - thinking that at least I have a number on; but that was wrong and I'm sorry. Sorry. Norrene; Queen of the dumb-asses =0) On 5/25/05 9:24 AM, "Candi Murray" <cmur-@obra.org> wrote: > > Numbers and number placement are non-trivial items. Placing riders is a > MAJOR pain in the ass IF all the numbers are visible and there are no > duplicates. If this is not the case the difficulty

goes up > exponentially. > Even if you do not expect to place it is essential that you have a > number > placed in a spot that will be visible by camera. This is on your side > for > PIR and the track. At road venues the proper placement is one number on > the > side that the camera will be on and one low on the back where the follow > vehicle will be able to see it. The officials have to work hard enough > as > it is and taking tapes home to review them for hours, make corrections, > etc. > is really asking too much. > > Not signing in is even more serious. The results are tabulated based on > sign in sheets. In addition, if you did not sign in there are insurance > coverage issues. There is also the issue of whether you paid. Bottom > line > is that this an offense that can

be punished with suspension from > racing. > > Unfortunately many of the top riders have started to not wear numbers or > sign in. I guess they have concluded that they are so important that > they > don't need to do this. I don't know how they conclude this since I have > never seen Lance Armstrong enter with out a number and he is surely more > notable. Last night at one point the camera shot the 12 riders in the > lead > and only 6 had visible numbers. > > The officials have started to deal with this by simply ignoring riders > with > no visible number. Several riders last night placed highly but were not > listed in results. One has been racing since he was a junior and is now > in > his 40s. He has recently returned to the US. I would bet that he NEVER > entered a race in

France with no number or one pinned on the wrong side. > > > Unfortunately this behavior tends to migrate down in category. If the > fast > guys don't wear a number then the slower guys won't wear numbers either > because they think that makes them look fast. Monday night the poor guy > that would have won the Cat 4/5 race, his first win ever, was not placed > because > of a number on the wrong side. > > There are other behaviors that are common but wrong. Last night there > was > one rider who is a Cat 5, but who appears to have at least some > experience, > who entered 3/4s and then rode in and placed in the Cat 4/5s. He then > started with the Cat 1/2/3s rode with us until we passed the Cat 3/4 > field. > He then joined that field and placed in the finish. At this point

we > are > going to assume that he is just stupid but what we are really talking > about > here is cheating. The other common cheat is to have a rider sit out a > lap > and then re-join and effect he outcome of the race by chasing a break or > leading out a team mate. > > The bottom line is that all the organizational stuff for bike racing is > hard > enough without also having to deal with crap like this. Don't > contribute to > the problem and when you see someone doing this sort of thing call them > on > it. > > Mike Murray > > To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com. > To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org > To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com > > > > > Norrene Godfrey | Senior

Norrene Godfrey

2005-05-25

I want to openly apologize for all the number issues that Candi and all the

other refs have been having with Rubicon.

We do not think we are hot shots, to good to wear numbers or cheat....we are

simply dumb-asses who keep screwing things up. Going forward we will make it

a priority to get our numbers right. Including me....Queen of all dumb

asses. I forgot my number last night so I grab another one out of my bag -

thinking that at least I have a number on; but that was wrong and I'm sorry.

Sorry.

Norrene; Queen of the dumb-asses =0)

On 5/25/05 9:24 AM, "Candi Murray" <cmur-@obra.org> wrote:

Numbers and number placement are non-trivial items. Placing riders is a

MAJOR pain in the ass IF all the numbers are visible and there are no

duplicates. If this is not the case the difficulty goes up

exponentially.

Even if you do not expect to place it is essential that you have a

number

placed in a spot that will be visible by camera. This is on your side

for

PIR and the track. At road venues the proper placement is one number on

the

side that the camera will be on and one low on the back where the follow

vehicle will be able to see it. The officials have to work hard enough

as

it is and taking tapes home to review them for hours, make corrections,

etc.

is really asking too much.

Not signing in is even more serious. The results are tabulated based on

sign in sheets. In addition, if you did not sign in there are insurance

coverage issues. There is also the issue of whether you paid. Bottom

line

is that this an offense that can be punished with suspension from

racing.

Unfortunately many of the top riders have started to not wear numbers or

sign in. I guess they have concluded that they are so important that

they

don't need to do this. I don't know how they conclude this since I have

never seen Lance Armstrong enter with out a number and he is surely more

notable. Last night at one point the camera shot the 12 riders in the

lead

and only 6 had visible numbers.

The officials have started to deal with this by simply ignoring riders

with

no visible number. Several riders last night placed highly but were not

listed in results. One has been racing since he was a junior and is now

in

his 40s. He has recently returned to the US. I would bet that he NEVER

entered a race in France with no number or one pinned on the wrong side.

Unfortunately this behavior tends to migrate down in category. If the

fast

guys don't wear a number then the slower guys won't wear numbers either

because they think that makes them look fast. Monday night the poor guy

that would have won the Cat 4/5 race, his first win ever, was not placed

because

of a number on the wrong side.

There are other behaviors that are common but wrong. Last night there

was

one rider who is a Cat 5, but who appears to have at least some

experience,

who entered 3/4s and then rode in and placed in the Cat 4/5s. He then

started with the Cat 1/2/3s rode with us until we passed the Cat 3/4

field.

He then joined that field and placed in the finish. At this point we

are

going to assume that he is just stupid but what we are really talking

about

here is cheating. The other common cheat is to have a rider sit out a

lap

and then re-join and effect he outcome of the race by chasing a break or

leading out a team mate.

The bottom line is that all the organizational stuff for bike racing is

hard

enough without also having to deal with crap like this. Don't

contribute to

the problem and when you see someone doing this sort of thing call them

on

it.

Mike Murray

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

Norrene Godfrey | Senior Production Artist | US Sport Apparel

Nike | 503.671.2178 | norrene.-@nike.com

Gary Malcolm

2005-05-25

------=_Part_22406_28621015.1117039438067

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Content-Disposition: inline

Go Mike!

The number issue will resolve itself if you can get the hutzpah to stick to=

=20

your guns and just IGNORE any rider W/O their number! It will only takes on=

e=20

or two missed placements to get that through the dumbest roadies head...=20

even mine. I'll wager you'll have do-gooders wandering the pre-race lineup=

=20

checking number placements before the start of every field. Perhaps you=20

should just add this as an OBRA by-law ( if it isn't already). Maybe the=20

follow car could even pick out riders to DQ during the race.

The cheating thing is a whole other issue. This is very bad indeed. Perhaps=

=20

piling on the suspensions, killing BAR points, subtracting team BAR points,=

=20

team suspensions or just plain old license revocation would get folks to to=

e=20

up to the ol' honesty line through shame and peer pressure.=20

Didn't they just throw a hand pump into the spokes in the old days?=20

Just kidding!

Gary Malcolm

--=20

. . . . . .__o

. . . . . .\<,

. . . . ( )/ ( )

------=_Part_22406_28621015.1117039438067

Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Content-Disposition: inline

 Go Mike! 

 

The number issue will resolve itself if you can get the hutzpah to

stick to your guns and just IGNORE any rider W/O their number! It will

only takes one or two missed placements to get that through

the dumbest roadies head... even mine. I'll wager you'll have

do-gooders wandering the pre-race lineup checking number placements

before the start of every field. Perhaps you should just add this as an

OBRA by-law ( if it isn't already). Maybe the follow car could even

pick out riders to DQ during the race. 

 

The cheating thing is a whole other issue. This is very bad indeed.

Perhaps piling on the suspensions, killing BAR points, subtracting team

BAR points, team suspensions or just plain old license revocation

would get folks to toe up to the ol' honesty line through shame and

peer pressure. 

 

Didn't they just throw a hand pump into the spokes in the old days? 

 

Just kidding! 

 

Gary Malcolm 

 -- . . . . . .__o . . . . . .\<, . . . . ( )/ ( )

------=_Part_22406_28621015.1117039438067--

Candi Murray

2005-05-25

Numbers and number placement are non-trivial items. Placing riders is a

MAJOR pain in the ass IF all the numbers are visible and there are no

duplicates. If this is not the case the difficulty goes up

exponentially.

Even if you do not expect to place it is essential that you have a

number

placed in a spot that will be visible by camera. This is on your side

for

PIR and the track. At road venues the proper placement is one number on

the

side that the camera will be on and one low on the back where the follow

vehicle will be able to see it. The officials have to work hard enough

as

it is and taking tapes home to review them for hours, make corrections,

etc.

is really asking too much.

Not signing in is even more serious. The results are tabulated based on

sign in sheets. In addition, if you did not sign in there are insurance

coverage issues. There is also the issue of whether you paid. Bottom

line

is that this an offense that can be punished with suspension from

racing.

Unfortunately many of the top riders have started to not wear numbers or

sign in. I guess they have concluded that they are so important that

they

don't need to do this. I don't know how they conclude this since I have

never seen Lance Armstrong enter with out a number and he is surely more

notable. Last night at one point the camera shot the 12 riders in the

lead

and only 6 had visible numbers.

The officials have started to deal with this by simply ignoring riders

with

no visible number. Several riders last night placed highly but were not

listed in results. One has been racing since he was a junior and is now

in

his 40s. He has recently returned to the US. I would bet that he NEVER

entered a race in France with no number or one pinned on the wrong side.

Unfortunately this behavior tends to migrate down in category. If the

fast

guys don't wear a number then the slower guys won't wear numbers either

because they think that makes them look fast. Monday night the poor guy

that would have won the Cat 4/5 race, his first win ever, was not placed

because

of a number on the wrong side.

There are other behaviors that are common but wrong. Last night there

was

one rider who is a Cat 5, but who appears to have at least some

experience,

who entered 3/4s and then rode in and placed in the Cat 4/5s. He then

started with the Cat 1/2/3s rode with us until we passed the Cat 3/4

field.

He then joined that field and placed in the finish. At this point we

are

going to assume that he is just stupid but what we are really talking

about

here is cheating. The other common cheat is to have a rider sit out a

lap

and then re-join and effect he outcome of the race by chasing a break or

leading out a team mate.

The bottom line is that all the organizational stuff for bike racing is

hard

enough without also having to deal with crap like this. Don't

contribute to

the problem and when you see someone doing this sort of thing call them

on

it.

Mike Murray

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