Do we have some big issue that would warrant the expense of timing
chips? So far, other than some minor errors which usually are
corrected, there does not seem to be a problem to me.
-----Original Message-----
From: mike.m-@obra.org [mailto:mike.m-@obra.org]
Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 3:05 PM
To: 'McCann Family'; gurimal-@yahoo.com; beng-@comcast.net
Cc: ob-@topica.com
Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] chip timeing
They worked great at Sea Otter, except for the year that they did not.
As I
have said several times; Yes, there are systems out there that work.
They
are expensive. They don't always work perfectly (just like everything
else). They require personnel to run. There are technical issues
involved, like the one that Einar noted, that need to be addressed to
have a
working system.
Mike Murray
-----Original Message-----
From: McCann Family [mailto:dcjmc-@msn.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 07:05 AM
To: gurimal-@yahoo.com; mike.m-@obra.org; beng-@comcast.net
Cc: ob-@topica.com
Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] chip timeing
This is not true..... The Sea Otter uses them and they work great.
From: Einar Traa <gurimal-@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: gurimal-@yahoo.com
To: mike.m-@obra.org, 'Brian Engelen' <beng-@comcast.net>
CC: 'OBRA Remailer' <ob-@topica.com>
Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] chip timeing
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:44:57 -0700 (PDT)
RFID chips tend to have one common problem in bike racing. They require
the
finishers to line up single file to go past the chip reader one at a
time.
This works in store checkouts and in running races. It is incompatible
with a bicycle peloton finish.
mike.m-@obra.org wrote:These are passive RFID chips. They would not
work for bike racing.
Mike Murray
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Engelen [mailto:beng-@comcast.net]
Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 14:13 PM
To: mike.m-@obra.org
Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] chip timeing
Interesting factoid. Wal-Mart is currently looking for a suplier that
will produce radio chips that can be stuck onto each piece of
merchandize so it can be read at the checkout counter. Price per chip
needs to be 6 cents. The chip looks like one of those security doodads
that they put on stuff already.
Brian Engelen
-----Original Message-----
From: mike.m-@obra.org [mailto:mike.m-@obra.org]
Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 12:50 PM
To: don-@bendnet.com; ob-@topica.com
Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] chip timeing
Don is incorrect in his assumption that chip timing is entirely
accurate.
It
fails and has done so rather famously at big events where there was
little
back up for it. Even if reliability and cost were not a problem there
are
other issues. I have been watching the chip timing issue for many years
and
it is really not a "ready for prime time" technology in my opinion. I
am
questioned about this so frequently that I have put together a stock
answer,
which is below, for those interested in details.
Bottom line is that a race organizer might elect to rent chip timing
from a company that does this but the cost will be, as Damian noted,
fairly high. In addition, something that Damian did not note, is that
someone will need to pay the cost for the inevitable lost chips.
One of the OBRA members is currently working on developing a chip
system that MAY address some of the problems with the commercially
available systems. If it does, OBRA will fund that.
Mike Murray
I have been following the use of transponders in bike racing (as well
as in running, triathlon, motor sports, model car racing, etc.) for
several years. Although the transponders can work very well for some
applications they have
created major timing disasters at several bike races. Sea Otter was
evidently an example of this one year. As I understand it, the
transponder
signal was disrupted by metal structures in the finish area and the
results
produced were inaccurate.
There are several companies that produce these devices and systems.
They vary in costs, reliability and set up requirements. They don't
have an actual radio transmitter. They use a chip that is energized by
passing through an antenna field at the measurement point. This causes
the chip to emit a radio signal at that point that has an identifying
code. There are systems that use a mat that is placed on the finish
line and other systems that use a set of vertical antennas at the side
of the road. There are 2 types of chips; active and passive. Active
chips are more reliable and transmit better but are substantially more
expensive. Passive chips are cheaper but transmission is unreliable for
the types of finishes generally done at bike races.
For racing at a single location where the set up of the finish area
antennae
system can be consistent many of the reliability issue can be tested
and
resolved. If the set up is different for every race, as it would be for
bike racing, the reliability goes downhill significantly.
There is also more benefit for events where there are large numbers of
competitors that all need to be timed, like running or triathlons. In
this case the costs of the system (not only monetary) seem small
compared to the costs of manual systems. For bike racing the field
sizes are smaller and generally the timing requirements are less
because generally all the competitors are not timed. (In fact, for road
races there is generally only a time for the leader and order of finish
is all that matters. Even in stage races bunches of riders are given
pack times.)
The main monetary cost is the cost of the chips. There are 3 basic
systems for managing these:
1) All competitors purchase chips - This is the motor sport model
generally.
This probably causes them less problems for motor sports since the chip
cost
is small relative to equipment costs. For bike racing, this would
significantly raise the cost of participating. This would likely have a
negative effect on participation.
2) The organization purchases the chips - If OBRA were to do this we
would need to purchase a minimum of 400 chips. Even for the lowest
priced chip systems (which are less reliable) this would cost
~$10,000+. It would also require us to institute a system of collecting
the chips after each race. At running or tri events this is easier
because the finishing competitors can be funneled into a corral and not
let out until the turn in their chip. This
is far harder to do at a bike race. The Atlanta Olympics used chips and
they lost them so you can be assured that "shrinkage" would be a major
issue
for OBRA. A deposit would need to be charged which would complicate the
system and be a disincentive for participation.
3) The organization buys some chips and the competitors buy some - This
is what some running events do. The competitor gets an advantage in
having an easier registration process and he eliminates the need to pay
deposit, collect and turn back in the transponder, etc. For this
convenience they pay the cost of the transponder. The organization
benefits by decreasing the number of transponders that they need. This
is probably the system that would work best for OBRA. Unfortunately it
would also require a standard registration system, purchase,
maintenance and training of computers for registration, etc.
Currently, the cost of using these systems for running and tri races is
too high for individual races or even series of races. When they use
them they hire a timing company to provide the chips and run the
system. This would be available to bike races too but, at this point,
there are few that have thought that the benefit justifies the cost.
I have no doubt that we will eventually be using this type of device
but I do not think that the technology is yet to the point where they
make sense for most races. I will be continuing to follow this subject
and when there is a product that makes sense from a practical and cost
point of view we will get it.
Mike Murray
-----Original Message-----
From: Don Leet [mailto:don-@bendnet.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 13:22 PM
To: ob-@topica.com
Subject: [OBRA Chat] chip timeing
I personaly would donate a large sum of money for chip timing. Though I
don't like raffles and prizes don't mean much to me (as I have a whole
store full of them) I want a national cyclo cross medal and last year
in my group they lost me and put me down a lap. With chip timeing this
would not have happened I could have retired from racing again ( this
would have been the 4th time) I did two races wtih chip timeing this
year and both were awsome in how fast and accurate the results were.
With all of our members it seems we could a one year surcharge and buy
a system. Don Leet
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