Gary Cornilles

It occurred to me as I read Chris's post that we were one of the teams

that "bent" the centerline rule on the two descents. I understand the

need for the rule and am certainly not arguing against the rule.



In this case it was an honest mistake, we simply crossed to provide a

safer line through the corner, nothing more. We did not use the

centerline to advance our position or gain some other edge on our

competitors. I observed other teams do it and honestly didn't give it a

second thought until reading Chris's post. I certainly didn't consider

the actions of the other teams reckless and never felt like it

endangered the other riders. If anything, like us, I felt the other

team's were taking a common sense approach.



As Chris pointed out, a tandem creates a different set of handling

characteristics than a conventional bike and I believe that the official

took that into consideration when he chose not to warn.



Sorry if our actions upset anyone...



Gary





Chris Rycewicz wrote:

 

In the tandem race, several teams also occasionally crossed the

centerline on both descents. In all instances, you could easily see up

the road and determine that no cars were approaching. Thus, this

behavior did not expose teams to danger from approaching cars because

there were no approaching cars. In fact, it could be argued that

crossing the centerline exposed teams to less danger than those

observing the centerline because crossing the centerline provided a

better line. Tandems are very cumbersome in tight corners. The

following official may have made a judgment call that the crossings were

inadvertent, resulted from the sheer size of the tandems, and did not

create a hazard. However, as someone who observed the rule and got

gapped a bit by teams that occasionally crossed the line, it was

tempting to follow form when it became apparent that the following

official were not going to issue centerline warnings. I refrained.

Before the start, Candy instructed the field to observe the standing

centerline rule. The rule is obviously necessary when the roads are

open. Riders need to observe, and officials need to enforce, the rule.

If the officials open the full road in certain areas (like in the last

200m), then cross the line. If they don't, observe the rule--unless you

are forced over the line or are in danger of overcooking a turn. The

rule protects racers and it protects the sport. Please, refrain from

blatantly violating the rule.





Christopher A. Rycewicz

Rycewicz & Chenoweth LLP

601 SW Second Ave., Suite 1940

Portland, OR 97204

phone (503) 221-7958

fax (503) 221-2182

email: chr-@northwestlaw.com







INFORMATION CONTAINED IN THIS COMMUNICATION IS PRIVILEGED AND/OR

CONFIDENTIAL AND IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE RECIPIENT. IF READER OF THIS

NOTICE IS NOT THE INTENDED RECIPIENT, YOU ARE HEREBY NOTIFIED THAT ANY

DISSEMINATION, DISTRIBUTION, OR COPYING OF THIS INFORMATION IS STRICTLY

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IMMEDIATELY NOTIFY THE SENDER BY PHONE, DELETE THE MESSAGE, AND DESTROY

ALL COPIES



-----Original Message-----

From: Schreck, George [mailto:george.-@pacificorp.com]

Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 10:18 AM

To: jfu-@toast.net; ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Questionable racing



Your posting is appropriate. On behalf of the Huntair team, we

appologize for the rider in question.   



-----Original Message-----

From: Jeff Fuchs [mailto:jfu-@toast.net]

Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 9:32 PM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Questionable racing



I hesitate to post this message because I'm sure I will get crucified by



some people. But, I think the issue is important enough to risk a public



flogging.



In today's Cat. 3/4/5 race, officials were very clear (as always) that

we were not to supposed to cross the centerline during the race. They

specifically pointed out the steep 2-turn hairpin descent as a place

that we were supposed to pay special attention to staying in our lane.



Unfortunately, rider #531 from the Corben-Huntair team must not have

heard what I heard. Both times we raced down the hill, he moved to the

front of the cahse group and then chose to ride the fastest line through



the 2-turn swithcback. On each turn he crossed well into the opposing

travel lane. Of course he was much faster descending than the rest of

us. We braked and rode slowly enough to stay in our lane. Then we chased



hard to close the gap.



Now, I understand how you can cross the centerline when you over cook a

turn or get forced across the line by other riders. But when you

intentionally ride across the line in order to descend faster or pass

another rider, that is akin to cheating. It is also pretty dangerous.



After the first descent I tried the direct approach and I reminded rider



#531 about the centerline rule. This had no effect and the next time

down the hill he gapped us by 5 to 10-seconds.



The funny thing is that he was probably the strongest rider in the chase



group. he didn't need to cross the centerline. He could have followed

the same rules that the rest of us followed and he still would have

finished ahead of us.





Jeff Fuchs

#830



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Thank you Danny!



Danny Knudsen <dannyk-@msn.com> wrote:The point has been lost? The rider went over the center line! that is wrong and against the rules. Will any of you have the same conversation with the riders friends and family when the ride was hit from going over the center line our when the family is suing the promoter (I doubt it).

I have raced in Europe and using your brakes have nothing to do with going over the center line or disregarding one of the most basic rule of racing.



Danny Knudsen



----- Original Message -----

From: David Diviney

To: ob-@topica.com

Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 9:56 PM

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Questionable racing





All this talk about close quarters, no brake racing in Europe makes me laugh. I specifically remember when the Euros and Americans who race in Europe were racing in the US last year. The common theme among them was "don't these American racers know how to use their brakes?" The exact opposite of what Larssyn and John (below) wrote. So, do they use brakes in Europe or not? I have a friend and OBRA guy who spent a year racing in Belgium who said every corner was super slow into corners and sprint out, far worse than here. I doubt Europeans race better than we do. There are more crashes in pro races in Europe than OBRA races.



john schmidt <twotireti-@yahoo.com> wrote: A couple opinions (just opinions):



The hairpin corner in my opinion should have been raced the whole width

and I thought most of the racers were?? lead cars were looking for and

ready to stop any traffic from going up when the pack was coming down,

well at least I was. Plus you could look out and see for any on-coming

cars. If I had raced I probably would have used the whole road, NOT to

breakaway but for cornering safety (many other better places to try a

break). Once again, BUT only because I could've look and seen for

oncoming cars !! The other corners, I thought they too were for full

use. This is why traffic was stopped at the intersections.



So are you sure the C-H racer was not just being safe, just trying to

stay away from timid and dangerous cornering? Those hairpins lanes were

awfully narrow. If he got a gap did you really need to "chase" him

down? I bet he wasn't planning to stay out there by himself and would

have come back shortly...



Obviously, I am not saying you can cross the yellow line, especially

when told not too. and of course do it on a blind corner or a blind

little rise, you really would be playing russian roulette. Just that

specific hairpin was maybe a special circumstance...



I almost commented on that email a couple months ago and now will since

it was posted again? The type of racing Larsyn describes is certainly

not exclusive to Europe... that she even commented on that sort of

racing implies that exposure didn't happen in Portland... In the races

I have done(in the US, and yes even here in oregon), the racing

described in Italy is generally how it works. Brakes are only for an

emergency. No one ever glances back, you just move in and fill the gap.

That does NOT mean erratic riding or hooking which is illegal. Note

her email could be misinterpreted by some to imply that?s its ok to

sideswipe (if you stick your wheel where it don't belong you might get

sideswiped), or to go "full bore from one side of the road to another".

This is not OK, for sure even in Italy, if it is erratic! Obviously,

nothing is done that other racers can't react off of, otherwise there

would be crashes all the time. Plus usually if you are aware and you

know the racing style, you will easily anticipate where the riders in

front of you and beside you are going to go and be ready to react

accordingly.



I will also add that, yeah, you might be responsible for your own front

wheel, BUT not completely. If you are behind or beside someone who

swerves quickly and unpredictably, you WILL go down, no if, thens or

buts!, and it is NOT your fault, there is nothing you can do. Thus you

are just as responsible for riding smooth enough to not cause problems

behind you!



By the way, filling gaps and riding up beside someone is not dangerous

but just normal racing, and does not in themselves cause crashes as

someone after PIR tried to tell me last week. As stated, ad nauseum,

erratic lateral movements and sudden braking cause crashes (and people

that are not relaxed, typically those yelling "hold your line", etc).

If I do come up kind of close to someone, I will let them know, "Oh,

ahh, heh I am here". I am use to being tapped on the hip (which I

personally don't do cause it freaks some out especially in lower

categories). I use-to-be-use to ridding packed in so tight

(honeycombed) that hands and brakehorns would touch hips occasionally.

If you daydreamed at all and weren?t assertive in filling holes and

gaps, you would be in the back in the matter of minutes. If wanted to

consider a top 20 finish, I would start working, threading, a way to the

front maybe 10 miles from the finish? But then this was also in 1989,

1990, when I was not fat and raced a lot and fields were typically

upwards of 100 riders? Of course now I will occasionally get assertive

but usually not, no need too (and never ever erratic), the packs aren't

huge and not tightly packed. I am really thankful for cat 4 racing,

masters racing, cause otherwise I wouldn't race at all and get fat.

And boy I wish I would have started on the track 16 yrs ago that?s some

fun.... By the way I do think most of the racers here have great bike

skills etc., etc, its just good to send a reminder for myself too and of

course we always have the up and coming great ones to teach properly...





Other notes:

Looking back also is bad in that if you are not good at it, it causes

you to ride erratic / jerk sideways. I had to explain this to a young

green-yellow jersey rider at swan isle? "You do Not need to keep

constantly glancing back, If you want the hole, just ride smoothly into

it. " Now obviously if you are going to jerk into it (not recommended),

or if there is no place for a possible rider to-the-side-and-back-of-you

to go (ie like in a sprinters lane) than you should probably glance?

but on the road, No, just be smooth?



Pushing a big gear generally results in an occasional erratic lateral

movement. I see this a lot, you may think you are riding a straight

line... Learn to spin and just one of the many many positive outcomes

will be you won't cause crashes. Or at the very least be aware of it

and try push the big gear smoothly. But don't worry too much if you push

a big gear I will leave you more room.



On Corners I always leave room for guy to the inside of me if I can

Not only is it a nice thing to do, but if you cut off the corner and

they crash, their energy will carry to the outside and take you out too.

this advice usually applies to Crits but PIR would be a little safer if

this were done more out there too.



Training a team could do, is simply emphasize spin, emphasize

smoothness, emphasize predictability. Train being relaxed while riding

close to each other. Note the relax comes first. Wiggle them elbows.







Vicki Schroeder wrote:

 



Well I think a discussion about questionable racing is always in order.

 Some riders do seem to think they are invincible, sadly it is always

others that have to clean up their mess! I think there is far too

little discussion about bad riding and the difference between hard

racing and stupid racing. How many teams actively instruct (or act

against, in the worst cases) their riders about bad riding?



Center line violations are very serious but so are other problems that

sometimes lead to horrible crashes (Ex: people braking heavily in tight

packs).

To respond to

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<DIV>Thank you Danny!<BR><BR><B><I>Danny Knudsen <dannyk-@msn.com></I></B> wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">

<STYLE></STYLE>



<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2627" name=GENERATOR><!--[gte IE 5]><?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->

<DIV>

<DIV>The point has been lost? The rider went over the center line! that is wrong and against the rules. Will any of you have the same conversation with the riders friends and family when the ride was hit from going over the center line our when the family is suing the promoter (I doubt it). </DIV>

<DIV>I have raced in Europe and using your brakes have nothing to do with going over the center line or disregarding one of the most basic rule of racing.</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>Danny Knudsen</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>From:</B> <A title=mailto:davidd-@yahoo.com href="mailto:davidd-@yahoo.com">David Diviney</A> </DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=mailto:ob-@topica.com href="mailto:ob-@topica.com">ob-@topica.com</A> </DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, June 13, 2005 9:56 PM</DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: [OBRA Chat] Questionable racing</DIV>

<DIV><BR></DIV>

<DIV>All this talk about close quarters, no brake racing in Europe makes me laugh.  I specifically remember when the Euros and Americans who race in Europe were racing in the US last year.  The common theme among them was "don't these American racers know how to use their brakes?"  The exact opposite of what Larssyn and John (below) wrote.  So, do they use brakes in Europe or not?  I have a friend and OBRA guy who spent a year racing in Belgium who said every corner was super slow into corners and sprint out, far worse than here.  I doubt Europeans race better than we do.  There are more crashes in pro races in Europe than OBRA races.<BR><BR><B><I>john schmidt <twotireti-@yahoo.com></I></B> wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">A couple opinions (just opinions):<BR><BR>The hairpin corner in my opinion should have been raced the whole width <BR>and I thought most of the racers were?? lead cars were looking for and <BR>ready to stop any traffic from going up when the pack was coming down, <BR>well at least I was. Plus you could look out and see for any on-coming <BR>cars. If I had raced I probably would have used the whole road, NOT to <BR>breakaway but for cornering safety (many other better places to try a <BR>break). Once again, BUT only because I could've look and seen for <BR>oncoming cars !! The other corners, I thought they too were for full <BR>use. This is why traffic was stopped at the intersections. <BR><BR>So are you sure the C-H racer was not just being safe, just trying to <BR>stay away from timid and dangerous cornering? Those hairpins lanes were <BR>awfully narrow. If he got a gap did you

really need to "chase" him <BR>down? I bet he wasn't planning to stay out there by himself and would <BR>have come back shortly... <BR><BR>Obviously, I am not saying you can cross the yellow line, especially <BR>when told not too. and of course do it on a blind corner or a blind <BR>little rise, you really would be playing russian roulette. Just that <BR>specific hairpin was maybe a special circumstance... <BR><BR>I almost commented on that email a couple months ago and now will since <BR>it was posted again? The type of racing Larsyn describes is certainly <BR>not exclusive to Europe... that she even commented on that sort of <BR>racing implies that exposure didn't happen in Portland... In the races <BR>I have done(in the US, and yes even here in oregon), the racing <BR>described in Italy is generally how it works. Brakes are only for an <BR>emergency. No one ever glances back, you just move in and fill the gap. <BR>That does NOT mean erratic riding or hooking which is illegal.

Note <BR>her email could be misinterpreted by some to imply that?s its ok to <BR>sideswipe (if you stick your wheel where it don't belong you might get <BR>sideswiped), or to go "full bore from one side of the road to another". <BR>This is not OK, for sure even in Italy, if it is erratic! Obviously, <BR>nothing is done that other racers can't react off of, otherwise there <BR>would be crashes all the time. Plus usually if you are aware and you <BR>know the racing style, you will easily anticipate where the riders in <BR>front of you and beside you are going to go and be ready to react <BR>accordingly. <BR><BR>I will also add that, yeah, you might be responsible for your own front <BR>wheel, BUT not completely. If you are behind or beside someone who <BR>swerves quickly and unpredictably, you WILL go down, no if, thens or <BR>buts!, and it is NOT your fault, there is nothing you can do. Thus you <BR>are just as responsible for riding smooth enough to not cause problems <BR>behind

you! <BR><BR>By the way, filling gaps and riding up beside someone is not dangerous <BR>but just normal racing, and does not in themselves cause crashes as <BR>someone after PIR tried to tell me last week. As stated, ad nauseum, <BR>erratic lateral movements and sudden braking cause crashes (and people <BR>that are not relaxed, typically those yelling "hold your line", etc). <BR>If I do come up kind of close to someone, I will let them know, "Oh, <BR>ahh, heh I am here". I am use to being tapped on the hip (which I <BR>personally don't do cause it freaks some out especially in lower <BR>categories). I use-to-be-use to ridding packed in so tight <BR>(honeycombed) that hands and brakehorns would touch hips occasionally. <BR>If you daydreamed at all and weren?t assertive in filling holes and <BR>gaps, you would be in the back in the matter of minutes. If wanted to <BR>consider a top 20 finish, I would start working, threading, a way to the <BR>front maybe 10 miles from the finish? But

then this was also in 1989, <BR>1990, when I was not fat and raced a lot and fields were typically <BR>upwards of 100 riders? Of course now I will occasionally get assertive <BR>but usually not, no need too (and never ever erratic), the packs aren't <BR>huge and not tightly packed. I am really thankful for cat 4 racing, <BR>masters racing, cause otherwise I wouldn't race at all and get fat. <BR>And boy I wish I would have started on the track 16 yrs ago that?s some <BR>fun.... By the way I do think most of the racers here have great bike <BR>skills etc., etc, its just good to send a reminder for myself too and of <BR>course we always have the up and coming great ones to teach properly... <BR><BR><BR>Other notes: <BR>Looking back also is bad in that if you are not good at it, it causes <BR>you to ride erratic / jerk sideways. I had to explain this to a young <BR>green-yellow jersey rider at swan isle? "You do Not need to keep <BR>constantly glancing back, If you want the hole, just

ride smoothly into <BR>it. " Now obviously if you are going to jerk into it (not recommended), <BR>or if there is no place for a possible rider to-the-side-and-back-of-you <BR>to go (ie like in a sprinters lane) than you should probably glance? <BR>but on the road, No, just be smooth?<BR><BR>Pushing a big gear generally results in an occasional erratic lateral <BR>movement. I see this a lot, you may think you are riding a straight <BR>line... Learn to spin and just one of the many many positive outcomes <BR>will be you won't cause crashes. Or at the very least be aware of it <BR>and try push the big gear smoothly. But don't worry too much if you push <BR>a big gear I will leave you more room. <BR><BR>On Corners I always leave room for guy to the inside of me if I can <BR>Not only is it a nice thing to do, but if you cut off the corner and <BR>they crash, their energy will carry to the outside and take you out too. <BR>this advice usually applies to Crits but PIR would be a little

safer if <BR>this were done more out there too. <BR><BR>Training a team could do, is simply emphasize spin, emphasize <BR>smoothness, emphasize predictability. Train being relaxed while riding <BR>close to each other. Note the relax comes first. Wiggle them elbows.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Vicki Schroeder wrote:<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> Well I think a discussion about questionable racing is always in order.<BR><BR>> Some riders do seem to think they are invincible, sadly it is always<BR>> others that have to clean up their mess! I think there is far too<BR>> little discussion about bad riding and the difference between hard<BR>> racing and stupid racing. How many teams actively instruct (or act<BR>> against, in the worst cases) their riders about bad riding? <BR>> <BR>> Center line violations are very serious but so are other problems that<BR>> sometimes lead to horrible crashes (Ex: people braking heavily in tight<BR>> packs).<BR>> <BR>><BR><BR>To respond to



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Chris Rycewicz

In the tandem race, several teams also occasionally crossed the

centerline on both descents. In all instances, you could easily see up

the road and determine that no cars were approaching. Thus, this

behavior did not expose teams to danger from approaching cars because

there were no approaching cars. In fact, it could be argued that

crossing the centerline exposed teams to less danger than those

observing the centerline because crossing the centerline provided a

better line. Tandems are very cumbersome in tight corners. The

following official may have made a judgment call that the crossings were

inadvertent, resulted from the sheer size of the tandems, and did not

create a hazard. However, as someone who observed the rule and got

gapped a bit by teams that occasionally crossed the line, it was

tempting to follow form when it became apparent that the following

official were not going to issue centerline warnings. I refrained.

Before the start, Candy instructed the field to observe the standing

centerline rule. The rule is obviously necessary when the roads are

open. Riders need to observe, and officials need to enforce, the rule.

If the officials open the full road in certain areas (like in the last

200m), then cross the line. If they don't, observe the rule--unless you

are forced over the line or are in danger of overcooking a turn. The

rule protects racers and it protects the sport. Please, refrain from

blatantly violating the rule.





Christopher A. Rycewicz

Rycewicz & Chenoweth LLP

601 SW Second Ave., Suite 1940

Portland, OR 97204

phone (503) 221-7958

fax (503) 221-2182

email: chr-@northwestlaw.com







INFORMATION CONTAINED IN THIS COMMUNICATION IS PRIVILEGED AND/OR

CONFIDENTIAL AND IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE RECIPIENT. IF READER OF THIS

NOTICE IS NOT THE INTENDED RECIPIENT, YOU ARE HEREBY NOTIFIED THAT ANY

DISSEMINATION, DISTRIBUTION, OR COPYING OF THIS INFORMATION IS STRICTLY

PROHIBITED. IF YOU HAVE RECEIVED THIS EMAIL IN ERROR, PLEASE

IMMEDIATELY NOTIFY THE SENDER BY PHONE, DELETE THE MESSAGE, AND DESTROY

ALL COPIES



-----Original Message-----

From: Schreck, George [mailto:george.-@pacificorp.com]

Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 10:18 AM

To: jfu-@toast.net; ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Questionable racing



Your posting is appropriate. On behalf of the Huntair team, we

appologize for the rider in question.   



-----Original Message-----

From: Jeff Fuchs [mailto:jfu-@toast.net]

Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 9:32 PM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Questionable racing



I hesitate to post this message because I'm sure I will get crucified by



some people. But, I think the issue is important enough to risk a public



flogging.



In today's Cat. 3/4/5 race, officials were very clear (as always) that

we were not to supposed to cross the centerline during the race. They

specifically pointed out the steep 2-turn hairpin descent as a place

that we were supposed to pay special attention to staying in our lane.



Unfortunately, rider #531 from the Corben-Huntair team must not have

heard what I heard. Both times we raced down the hill, he moved to the

front of the cahse group and then chose to ride the fastest line through



the 2-turn swithcback. On each turn he crossed well into the opposing

travel lane. Of course he was much faster descending than the rest of

us. We braked and rode slowly enough to stay in our lane. Then we chased



hard to close the gap.



Now, I understand how you can cross the centerline when you over cook a

turn or get forced across the line by other riders. But when you

intentionally ride across the line in order to descend faster or pass

another rider, that is akin to cheating. It is also pretty dangerous.



After the first descent I tried the direct approach and I reminded rider



#531 about the centerline rule. This had no effect and the next time

down the hill he gapped us by 5 to 10-seconds.



The funny thing is that he was probably the strongest rider in the chase



group. he didn't need to cross the centerline. He could have followed

the same rules that the rest of us followed and he still would have

finished ahead of us.





Jeff Fuchs

#830



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distribution or any action omitted or taken in reliance on it, is

prohibited and may be unlawful. If you believe that you have received

this email in error, please contact the sender, delete this e-mail and

destroy all copies.



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Jason Smith

If you cross the centerline against the official's orders, you are

taking your life into your own hands and may end up maimed, paralyzed,

or dead. In addition, you are cheating because you are breaking the

rules to your advantage.







john schmidt wrote:

 

A couple opinions (just opinions):



The hairpin corner in my opinion should have been raced the whole width

and I thought most of the racers were?? lead cars were looking for and

ready to stop any traffic from going up when the pack was coming down,

well at least I was.   Plus you could look out and see for any on-coming



cars. If I had raced I probably would have used the whole road, NOT to

breakaway but for cornering safety (many other better places to try a

break). Once again, BUT only because I could've look and seen for

oncoming cars !! The other corners, I thought they too were for full

use.   This is why traffic was stopped at the intersections.



So are you sure the C-H racer was not just being safe, just trying to

stay away from timid and dangerous cornering? Those hairpins lanes were



awfully narrow. If he got a gap did you really need to "chase" him

down? I bet he wasn't planning to stay out there by himself and would

have come back shortly...



Obviously, I am not saying you can cross the yellow line, especially

when told not too. and of course do it on a blind corner or a blind

little rise, you really would be playing russian roulette.   Just that

specific hairpin was maybe a special circumstance...



I almost commented on that email a couple months ago and now will since

it was posted again? The type of racing Larsyn describes is certainly

not exclusive to Europe... that she even commented on that sort of

racing implies that exposure didn't happen in Portland... In the races

I have done(in the US, and yes even here in oregon), the racing

described in Italy is generally how it works. Brakes are only for an

emergency. No one ever glances back, you just move in and fill the gap.



That does NOT mean erratic riding or hooking which is illegal. Note

her email could be misinterpreted by some to imply that?s its ok to

sideswipe (if you stick your wheel where it don't belong you might get

sideswiped), or to go "full bore from one side of the road to another".



This is not OK, for sure even in Italy, if it is erratic! Obviously,

nothing is done that other racers can't react off of, otherwise there

would be crashes all the time. Plus usually if you are aware and you

know the racing style, you will easily anticipate where the riders in

front of you and beside you are going to go and be ready to react

accordingly.   



I will also add that, yeah, you might be responsible for your own front

wheel, BUT not completely. If you are behind or beside someone who

swerves quickly and unpredictably, you WILL go down, no if, thens or

buts!, and it is NOT your fault, there is nothing you can do. Thus you

are just as responsible for riding smooth enough to not cause problems

behind you!    



By the way, filling gaps and riding up beside someone is not dangerous

but just normal racing, and does not in themselves cause crashes as

someone after PIR tried to tell me last week. As stated, ad nauseum,

erratic lateral movements and sudden braking cause crashes (and people

that are not relaxed, typically those yelling "hold your line", etc).   

If I do come up kind of close to someone, I will let them know, "Oh,

ahh, heh I am here".   I am use to being tapped on the hip (which I

personally don't do cause it freaks some out especially in lower

categories). I use-to-be-use to ridding packed in so tight

(honeycombed) that hands and brakehorns would touch hips occasionally.

If you daydreamed at all and weren?t assertive in filling holes and

gaps, you would be in the back in the matter of minutes. If wanted to

consider a top 20 finish, I would start working, threading, a way to the



front maybe 10 miles from the finish? But then this was also in 1989,

1990, when I was not fat and raced a lot and fields were typically

upwards of 100 riders? Of course now I will occasionally get assertive

but usually not, no need too (and never ever erratic), the packs aren't

huge and not tightly packed. I am really thankful for cat 4 racing,

masters racing, cause otherwise I wouldn't race at all and get fat.   

And boy I wish I would have started on the track 16 yrs ago that?s some

fun.... By the way I do think most of the racers here have great bike

skills etc., etc, its just good to send a reminder for myself too and of



course we always have the up and coming great ones to teach properly...



   



Other notes:   

Looking back also is bad in that if you are not good at it, it causes

you to ride erratic / jerk sideways. I had to explain this to a young

green-yellow jersey rider at swan isle? "You do Not need to keep

constantly glancing back, If you want the hole, just ride smoothly into

it. " Now obviously if you are going to jerk into it (not recommended),



or if there is no place for a possible rider to-the-side-and-back-of-you



to go (ie like in a sprinters lane) than you should probably glance?

but on the road, No, just be smooth?



Pushing a big gear generally results in an occasional erratic lateral

movement.   I see this a lot, you may think you are riding a straight

line... Learn to spin and just one of the many many positive outcomes

will be you won't cause crashes. Or at the very least be aware of it

and try push the big gear smoothly. But don't worry too much if you push



a big gear I will leave you more room.



On Corners I always leave room for guy to the inside of me if I can   

Not only is it a nice thing to do, but if you cut off the corner and

they crash, their energy will carry to the outside and take you out too.



this advice usually applies to Crits but PIR would be a little safer if

this were done more out there too.



Training a team could do, is simply emphasize spin, emphasize

smoothness, emphasize predictability. Train being relaxed while riding

close to each other. Note the relax comes first. Wiggle them elbows.







Vicki Schroeder wrote:

 



Well I think a discussion about questionable racing is always in order.

 Some riders do seem to think they are invincible, sadly it is always

others that have to clean up their mess! I think there is far too

little discussion about bad riding and the difference between hard

racing and stupid racing. How many teams actively instruct (or act

against, in the worst cases) their riders about bad riding?



Center line violations are very serious but so are other problems that

sometimes lead to horrible crashes (Ex: people braking heavily in tight

packs).

Danny Knudsen

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The point has been lost? The rider went over the center line! that is wrong and against the rules. Will any of you have the same conversation with the riders friends and family when the ride was hit from going over the center line our when the family is suing the promoter (I doubt it).

I have raced in Europe and using your brakes have nothing to do with going over the center line or disregarding one of the most basic rule of racing.



Danny Knudsen



----- Original Message -----

From: David Diviney<mailto:davidd-@yahoo.com>

To: ob-@topica.com<mailto:ob-@topica.com>

Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 9:56 PM

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Questionable racing





All this talk about close quarters, no brake racing in Europe makes me laugh. I specifically remember when the Euros and Americans who race in Europe were racing in the US last year. The common theme among them was "don't these American racers know how to use their brakes?" The exact opposite of what Larssyn and John (below) wrote. So, do they use brakes in Europe or not? I have a friend and OBRA guy who spent a year racing in Belgium who said every corner was super slow into corners and sprint out, far worse than here. I doubt Europeans race better than we do. There are more crashes in pro races in Europe than OBRA races.



john schmidt <twotireti-@yahoo.com> wrote:

    A couple opinions (just opinions):



    The hairpin corner in my opinion should have been raced the whole width

    and I thought most of the racers were.? lead cars were looking for and

    ready to stop any traffic from going up when the pack was coming down,

    well at least I was. Plus you could look out and see for any on-coming

    cars. If I had raced I probably would have used the whole road, NOT to

    breakaway but for cornering safety (many other better places to try a

    break). Once again, BUT only because I could've look and seen for

    oncoming cars !! The other corners, I thought they too were for full

    use. This is why traffic was stopped at the intersections.



    So are you sure the C-H racer was not just being safe, just trying to

    stay away from timid and dangerous cornering? Those hairpins lanes were

    awfully narrow. If he got a gap did you really need to "chase" him

    down? I bet he wasn't planning to stay out there by himself and would

    have come back shortly...



    Obviously, I am not saying you can cross the yellow line, especially

    when told not too. and of course do it on a blind corner or a blind

    little rise, you really would be playing russian roulette. Just that

    specific hairpin was maybe a special circumstance...



    I almost commented on that email a couple months ago and now will since

    it was posted again. The type of racing Larsyn describes is certainly

    not exclusive to Europe... that she even commented on that sort of

    racing implies that exposure didn't happen in Portland... In the races

    I have done(in the US, and yes even here in oregon), the racing

    described in Italy is generally how it works. Brakes are only for an

    emergency. No one ever glances back, you just move in and fill the gap.

    That does NOT mean erratic riding or hooking which is illegal. Note

    her email could be misinterpreted by some to imply that's its ok to

    sideswipe (if you stick your wheel where it don't belong you might get

    sideswiped), or to go "full bore from one side of the road to another".

    This is not OK, for sure even in Italy, if it is erratic! Obviously,

    nothing is done that other racers can't react off of, otherwise there

    would be crashes all the time. Plus usually if you are aware and you

    know the racing style, you will easily anticipate where the riders in

    front of you and beside you are going to go and be ready to react

    accordingly.



    I will also add that, yeah, you might be responsible for your own front

    wheel, BUT not completely. If you are behind or beside someone who

    swerves quickly and unpredictably, you WILL go down, no if, thens or

    buts!, and it is NOT your fault, there is nothing you can do. Thus you

    are just as responsible for riding smooth enough to not cause problems

    behind you!



    By the way, filling gaps and riding up beside someone is not dangerous

    but just normal racing, and does not in themselves cause crashes as

    someone after PIR tried to tell me last week. As stated, ad nauseum,

    erratic lateral movements and sudden braking cause crashes (and people

    that are not relaxed, typically those yelling "hold your line", etc).

    If I do come up kind of close to someone, I will let them know, "Oh,

    ahh, heh I am here". I am use to being tapped on the hip (which I

    personally don't do cause it freaks some out especially in lower

    categories). I use-to-be-use to ridding packed in so tight

    (honeycombed) that hands and brakehorns would touch hips occasionally.

    If you daydreamed at all and weren't assertive in filling holes and

    gaps, you would be in the back in the matter of minutes. If wanted to

    consider a top 20 finish, I would start working, threading, a way to the

    front maybe 10 miles from the finish. But then this was also in 1989,

    1990, when I was not fat and raced a lot and fields were typically

    upwards of 100 riders. Of course now I will occasionally get assertive

    but usually not, no need too (and never ever erratic), the packs aren't

    huge and not tightly packed. I am really thankful for cat 4 racing,

    masters racing, cause otherwise I wouldn't race at all and get fat.

    And boy I wish I would have started on the track 16 yrs ago that's some

    fun.... By the way I do think most of the racers here have great bike

    skills etc., etc, its just good to send a reminder for myself too and of

    course we always have the up and coming great ones to teach properly...





    Other notes:

    Looking back also is bad in that if you are not good at it, it causes

    you to ride erratic / jerk sideways. I had to explain this to a young

    green-yellow jersey rider at swan isle. "You do Not need to keep

    constantly glancing back, If you want the hole, just ride smoothly into

    it. " Now obviously if you are going to jerk into it (not recommended),

    or if there is no place for a possible rider to-the-side-and-back-of-you

    to go (ie like in a sprinters lane) than you should probably glance.

    but on the road, No, just be smooth.



    Pushing a big gear generally results in an occasional erratic lateral

    movement. I see this a lot, you may think you are riding a straight

    line... Learn to spin and just one of the many many positive outcomes

    will be you won't cause crashes. Or at the very least be aware of it

    and try push the big gear smoothly. But don't worry too much if you push

    a big gear I will leave you more room.



    On Corners I always leave room for guy to the inside of me if I can

    Not only is it a nice thing to do, but if you cut off the corner and

    they crash, their energy will carry to the outside and take you out too.

    this advice usually applies to Crits but PIR would be a little safer if

    this were done more out there too.



    Training a team could do, is simply emphasize spin, emphasize

    smoothness, emphasize predictability. Train being relaxed while riding

    close to each other. Note the relax comes first. Wiggle them elbows.







    Vicki Schroeder wrote:

    >

    >

    > Well I think a discussion about questionable racing is always in order.



    > Some riders do seem to think they are invincible, sadly it is always

    > others that have to clean up their mess! I think there is far too

    > little discussion about bad riding and the difference between hard

    > racing and stupid racing. How many teams actively instruct (or act

    > against, in the worst cases) their riders about bad riding?

    >

    > Center line violations are very serious but so are other problems that

    > sometimes lead to horrible crashes (Ex: people braking heavily in tight

    > packs).

    >

    >



    To respond to

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<DIV>

<DIV>The point has been lost? The rider went over the center line! that is wrong

and against the rules. Will any of you have the same conversation with the

riders friends and family when the ride was hit from going over the center

line our when the family is suing the promoter (I doubt it). </DIV>

<DIV>I have raced in Europe and using your brakes have nothing to do with going

over the center line or disregarding one of the most basic rule of racing.</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>Danny Knudsen</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr

style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>From:</B> <A

title=mailto:davidd-@yahoo.com href="mailto:davidd-@yahoo.com">David

Diviney</A> </DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=mailto:ob-@topica.com

href="mailto:ob-@topica.com">ob-@topica.com</A> </DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, June 13, 2005 9:56 PM</DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: [OBRA Chat] Questionable

racing</DIV>

<DIV><BR></DIV>

<DIV>All this talk about close quarters, no brake racing in Europe makes me

laugh.  I specifically remember when the Euros and Americans who race in

Europe were racing in the US last year.  The common theme among them was

"don't these American racers know how to use their brakes?"  The exact

opposite of what Larssyn and John (below) wrote.  So, do they use brakes

in Europe or not?  I have a friend and OBRA guy who spent a year racing

in Belgium who said every corner was super slow into corners and sprint out,

far worse than here.  I doubt Europeans race better than we do. 

There are more crashes in pro races in Europe than OBRA

races.<BR><BR><B><I>john schmidt <twotireti-@yahoo.com></I></B>

wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq

style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">A

    couple opinions (just opinions):<BR><BR>The hairpin corner in my opinion

    should have been raced the whole width <BR>and I thought most of the racers

    were?? lead cars were looking for and <BR>ready to stop any traffic from

    going up when the pack was coming down, <BR>well at least I was. Plus you

    could look out and see for any on-coming <BR>cars. If I had raced I probably

    would have used the whole road, NOT to <BR>breakaway but for cornering

    safety (many other better places to try a <BR>break). Once again, BUT only

    because I could've look and seen for <BR>oncoming cars !! The other corners,

    I thought they too were for full <BR>use. This is why traffic was stopped at

    the intersections. <BR><BR>So are you sure the C-H racer was not just being

    safe, just trying to <BR>stay away from timid and dangerous cornering? Those

    hairpins lanes were <BR>awfully narrow. If he got a gap did you really need

    to "chase" him <BR>down? I bet he wasn't planning to stay out there by

    himself and would <BR>have come back shortly... <BR><BR>Obviously, I am not

    saying you can cross the yellow line, especially <BR>when told not too. and

    of course do it on a blind corner or a blind <BR>little rise, you really

    would be playing russian roulette. Just that <BR>specific hairpin was maybe

    a special circumstance... <BR><BR>I almost commented on that email a couple

    months ago and now will since <BR>it was posted again? The type of racing

    Larsyn describes is certainly <BR>not exclusive to Europe... that she even

    commented on that sort of <BR>racing implies that exposure didn't happen in

    Portland... In the races <BR>I have done(in the US, and yes even here in

    oregon), the racing <BR>described in Italy is generally how it works. Brakes

    are only for an <BR>emergency. No one ever glances back, you just move in

    and fill the gap. <BR>That does NOT mean erratic riding or hooking which is

    illegal. Note <BR>her email could be misinterpreted by some to imply that?s

    its ok to <BR>sideswipe (if you stick your wheel where it don't belong you

    might get <BR>sideswiped), or to go "full bore from one side of the road to

    another". <BR>This is not OK, for sure even in Italy, if it is erratic!

    Obviously, <BR>nothing is done that other racers can't react off of,

    otherwise there <BR>would be crashes all the time. Plus usually if you are

    aware and you <BR>know the racing style, you will easily anticipate where

    the riders in <BR>front of you and beside you are going to go and be ready

    to react <BR>accordingly. <BR><BR>I will also add that, yeah, you might be

    responsible for your own front <BR>wheel, BUT not completely. If you are

    behind or beside someone who <BR>swerves quickly and unpredictably, you WILL

    go down, no if, thens or <BR>buts!, and it is NOT your fault, there is

    nothing you can do. Thus you <BR>are just as responsible for riding smooth

    enough to not cause problems <BR>behind you! <BR><BR>By the way, filling

    gaps and riding up beside someone is not dangerous <BR>but just normal

    racing, and does not in themselves cause crashes as <BR>someone after PIR

    tried to tell me last week. As stated, ad nauseum, <BR>erratic lateral

    movements and sudden braking cause crashes (and people <BR>that are not

    relaxed, typically those yelling "hold your line", etc). <BR>If I do come up

    kind of close to someone, I will let them know, "Oh, <BR>ahh, heh I am

    here". I am use to being tapped on the hip (which I <BR>personally don't do

    cause it freaks some out especially in lower <BR>categories). I

    use-to-be-use to ridding packed in so tight <BR>(honeycombed) that hands and

    brakehorns would touch hips occasionally. <BR>If you daydreamed at all and

    weren?t assertive in filling holes and <BR>gaps, you would be in the back in

    the matter of minutes. If wanted to <BR>consider a top 20 finish, I would

    start working, threading, a way to the <BR>front maybe 10 miles from the

    finish? But then this was also in 1989, <BR>1990, when I was not fat and

    raced a lot and fields were typically <BR>upwards of 100 riders? Of course

    now I will occasionally get assertive <BR>but usually not, no need too (and

    never ever erratic), the packs aren't <BR>huge and not tightly packed. I am

    really thankful for cat 4 racing, <BR>masters racing, cause otherwise I

    wouldn't race at all and get fat. <BR>And boy I wish I would have started on

    the track 16 yrs ago that?s some <BR>fun.... By the way I do think most of

    the racers here have great bike <BR>skills etc., etc, its just good to send

    a reminder for myself too and of <BR>course we always have the up and coming

    great ones to teach properly... <BR><BR><BR>Other notes: <BR>Looking back

    also is bad in that if you are not good at it, it causes <BR>you to ride

    erratic / jerk sideways. I had to explain this to a young <BR>green-yellow

    jersey rider at swan isle? "You do Not need to keep <BR>constantly glancing

    back, If you want the hole, just ride smoothly into <BR>it. " Now obviously

    if you are going to jerk into it (not recommended), <BR>or if there is no

    place for a possible rider to-the-side-and-back-of-you <BR>to go (ie like in

    a sprinters lane) than you should probably glance? <BR>but on the road, No,

    just be smooth?<BR><BR>Pushing a big gear generally results in an occasional

    erratic lateral <BR>movement. I see this a lot, you may think you are riding

    a straight <BR>line... Learn to spin and just one of the many many positive

    outcomes <BR>will be you won't cause crashes. Or at the very least be aware

    of it <BR>and try push the big gear smoothly. But don't worry too much if

    you push <BR>a big gear I will leave you more room. <BR><BR>On Corners I

    always leave room for guy to the inside of me if I can <BR>Not only is it a

    nice thing to do, but if you cut off the corner and <BR>they crash, their

    energy will carry to the outside and take you out too. <BR>this advice

    usually applies to Crits but PIR would be a little safer if <BR>this were

    done more out there too. <BR><BR>Training a team could do, is simply

    emphasize spin, emphasize <BR>smoothness, emphasize predictability. Train

    being relaxed while riding <BR>close to each other. Note the relax comes

    first. Wiggle them elbows.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Vicki Schroeder wrote:<BR>>

    <BR>> <BR>> Well I think a discussion about questionable racing is

    always in order.<BR><BR>> Some riders do seem to think they are

    invincible, sadly it is always<BR>> others that have to clean up their

    mess! I think there is far too<BR>> little discussion about bad riding

    and the difference between hard<BR>> racing and stupid racing. How many

    teams actively instruct (or act<BR>> against, in the worst cases) their

    riders about bad riding? <BR>> <BR>> Center line violations are very

    serious but so are other problems that<BR>> sometimes lead to horrible

    crashes (Ex: people braking heavily in tight<BR>> packs).<BR>>

    <BR>><BR><BR>To respond to

    <HR SIZE=1>

    Discover Yahoo!<BR>Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM &

    more. <A

    title=http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=32660/*http://discover.yahoo.com/online.html

    href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=32660/*http://discover.yahoo.com/online.html">Check

    it out!</A></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BODY></HTML>



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Dan Houghton

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RE: braking

In my experience I have noticed that the better bike handlers brake pads last longer than less capable bike handlers. Perhaps track and cyclocross experience has something to do with that.

----- Original Message -----

From: David Diviney

To: ob-@topica.com

Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 9:56 PM

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Questionable racing





All this talk about close quarters, no brake racing in Europe makes me laugh. I specifically remember when the Euros and Americans who race in Europe were racing in the US last year. The common theme among them was "don't these American racers know how to use their brakes?" The exact opposite of what Larssyn and John (below) wrote. So, do they use brakes in Europe or not? I have a friend and OBRA guy who spent a year racing in Belgium who said every corner was super slow into corners and sprint out, far worse than here. I doubt Europeans race better than we do. There are more crashes in pro races in Europe than OBRA races.



john schmidt <twotireti-@yahoo.com> wrote:

    A couple opinions (just opinions):



    The hairpin corner in my opinion should have been raced the whole width

    and I thought most of the racers were.? lead cars were looking for and

    ready to stop any traffic from going up when the pack was coming down,

    well at least I was. Plus you could look out and see for any on-coming

    cars. If I had raced I probably would have used the whole road, NOT to

    breakaway but for cornering safety (many other better places to try a

    break). Once again, BUT only because I could've look and seen for

    oncoming cars !! The other corners, I thought they too were for full

    use. This is why traffic was stopped at the intersections.



    So are you sure the C-H racer was not just being safe, just trying to

    stay away from timid and dangerous cornering? Those hairpins lanes were

    awfully narrow. If he got a gap did you really need to "chase" him

    down? I bet he wasn't planning to stay out there by himself and would

    have come back shortly...



    Obviously, I am not saying you can cross the yellow line, especially

    when told not too. and of course do it on a blind corner or a blind

    little rise, you really would be playing russian roulette. Just that

    specific hairpin was maybe a special circumstance...



    I almost commented on that email a couple months ago and now will since

    it was posted again. The type of racing Larsyn describes is certainly

    not exclusive to Europe... that she even commented on that sort of

    racing implies that exposure didn't happen in Portland... In the races

    I have done(in the US, and yes even here in oregon), the racing

    described in Italy is generally how it works. Brakes are only for an

    emergency. No one ever glances back, you just move in and fill the gap.

    That does NOT mean erratic riding or hooking which is illegal. Note

    her email could be misinterpreted by some to imply that's its ok to

    sideswipe (if you stick your wheel where it don't belong you might get

    sideswiped), or to go "full bore from one side of the road to another".

    This is not OK, for sure even in Italy, if it is erratic! Obviously,

    nothing is done that other racers can't react off of, otherwise there

    would be crashes all the time. Plus usually if you are aware and you

    know the racing style, you will easily anticipate where the riders in

    front of you and beside you are going to go and be ready to react

    accordingly.



    I will also add that, yeah, you might be responsible for your own front

    wheel, BUT not completely. If you are behind or beside someone who

    swerves quickly and unpredictably, you WILL go down, no if, thens or

    buts!, and it is NOT your fault, there is nothing you can do. Thus you

    are just as responsible for riding smooth enough to not cause problems

    behind you!



    By the way, filling gaps and riding up beside someone is not dangerous

    but just normal racing, and does not in themselves cause crashes as

    someone after PIR tried to tell me last week. As stated, ad nauseum,

    erratic lateral movements and sudden braking cause crashes (and people

    that are not relaxed, typically those yelling "hold your line", etc).

    If I do come up kind of close to someone, I will let them know, "Oh,

    ahh, heh I am here". I am use to being tapped on the hip (which I

    personally don't do cause it freaks some out especially in lower

    categories). I use-to-be-use to ridding packed in so tight

    (honeycombed) that hands and brakehorns would touch hips occasionally.

    If you daydreamed at all and weren't assertive in filling holes and

    gaps, you would be in the back in the matter of minutes. If wanted to

    consider a top 20 finish, I would start working, threading, a way to the

    front maybe 10 miles from the finish. But then this was also in 1989,

    1990, when I was not fat and raced a lot and fields were typically

    upwards of 100 riders. Of course now I will occasionally get assertive

    but usually not, no need too (and never ever erratic), the packs aren't

    huge and not tightly packed. I am really thankful for cat 4 racing,

    masters racing, cause otherwise I wouldn't race at all and get fat.

    And boy I wish I would have started on the track 16 yrs ago that's some

    fun.... By the way I do think most of the racers here have great bike

    skills etc., etc, its just good to send a reminder for myself too and of

    course we always have the up and coming great ones to teach properly...





    Other notes:

    Looking back also is bad in that if you are not good at it, it causes

    you to ride erratic / jerk sideways. I had to explain this to a young

    green-yellow jersey rider at swan isle. "You do Not need to keep

    constantly glancing back, If you want the hole, just ride smoothly into

    it. " Now obviously if you are going to jerk into it (not recommended),

    or if there is no place for a possible rider to-the-side-and-back-of-you

    to go (ie like in a sprinters lane) than you should probably glance.

    but on the road, No, just be smooth.



    Pushing a big gear generally results in an occasional erratic lateral

    movement. I see this a lot, you may think you are riding a straight

    line... Learn to spin and just one of the many many positive outcomes

    will be you won't cause crashes. Or at the very least be aware of it

    and try push the big gear smoothly. But don't worry too much if you push

    a big gear I will leave you more room.



    On Corners I always leave room for guy to the inside of me if I can

    Not only is it a nice thing to do, but if you cut off the corner and

    they crash, their energy will carry to the outside and take you out too.

    this advice usually applies to Crits but PIR would be a little safer if

    this were done more out there too.



    Training a team could do, is simply emphasize spin, emphasize

    smoothness, emphasize predictability. Train being relaxed while riding

    close to each other. Note the relax comes first. Wiggle them elbows.







    Vicki Schroeder wrote:

    >

    >

    > Well I think a discussion about questionable racing is always in order.



    > Some riders do seem to think they are invincible, sadly it is always

    > others that have to clean up their mess! I think there is far too

    > little discussion about bad riding and the difference between hard

    > racing and stupid racing. How many teams actively instruct (or act

    > against, in the worst cases) their riders about bad riding?

    >

    > Center line violations are very serious but so are other problems that

    > sometimes lead to horrible crashes (Ex: people braking heavily in tight

    > packs).

    >

    >



    To respond to

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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>RE: braking</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>In my experience I have noticed that the better

bike handlers brake pads last longer than less capable bike handlers. Perhaps

track and cyclocross experience has something to do with that.</FONT></DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr

style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>

<DIV

style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>

<A title=dav-@yahoo.com href="mailto:davidd-@yahoo.com">David

Diviney</A> </DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title-@topica.com

href="mailto:ob-@topica.com">ob-@topica.com</A> </DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, June 13, 2005 9:56 PM</DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: [OBRA Chat] Questionable

racing</DIV>

<DIV><BR></DIV>

<DIV>All this talk about close quarters, no brake racing in Europe makes me

laugh.  I specifically remember when the Euros and Americans who race in

Europe were racing in the US last year.  The common theme among them was

"don't these American racers know how to use their brakes?"  The exact

opposite of what Larssyn and John (below) wrote.  So, do they use brakes

in Europe or not?  I have a friend and OBRA guy who spent a year racing

in Belgium who said every corner was super slow into corners and sprint out,

far worse than here.  I doubt Europeans race better than we do. 

There are more crashes in pro races in Europe than OBRA

races.<BR><BR><B><I>john schmidt <twotireti-@yahoo.com></I></B>

wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq

style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">A

    couple opinions (just opinions):<BR><BR>The hairpin corner in my opinion

    should have been raced the whole width <BR>and I thought most of the racers

    were?? lead cars were looking for and <BR>ready to stop any traffic from

    going up when the pack was coming down, <BR>well at least I was. Plus you

    could look out and see for any on-coming <BR>cars. If I had raced I probably

    would have used the whole road, NOT to <BR>breakaway but for cornering

    safety (many other better places to try a <BR>break). Once again, BUT only

    because I could've look and seen for <BR>oncoming cars !! The other corners,

    I thought they too were for full <BR>use. This is why traffic was stopped at

    the intersections. <BR><BR>So are you sure the C-H racer was not just being

    safe, just trying to <BR>stay away from timid and dangerous cornering? Those

    hairpins lanes were <BR>awfully narrow. If he got a gap did you really need

    to "chase" him <BR>down? I bet he wasn't planning to stay out there by

    himself and would <BR>have come back shortly... <BR><BR>Obviously, I am not

    saying you can cross the yellow line, especially <BR>when told not too. and

    of course do it on a blind corner or a blind <BR>little rise, you really

    would be playing russian roulette. Just that <BR>specific hairpin was maybe

    a special circumstance... <BR><BR>I almost commented on that email a couple

    months ago and now will since <BR>it was posted again? The type of racing

    Larsyn describes is certainly <BR>not exclusive to Europe... that she even

    commented on that sort of <BR>racing implies that exposure didn't happen in

    Portland... In the races <BR>I have done(in the US, and yes even here in

    oregon), the racing <BR>described in Italy is generally how it works. Brakes

    are only for an <BR>emergency. No one ever glances back, you just move in

    and fill the gap. <BR>That does NOT mean erratic riding or hooking which is

    illegal. Note <BR>her email could be misinterpreted by some to imply that?s

    its ok to <BR>sideswipe (if you stick your wheel where it don't belong you

    might get <BR>sideswiped), or to go "full bore from one side of the road to

    another". <BR>This is not OK, for sure even in Italy, if it is erratic!

    Obviously, <BR>nothing is done that other racers can't react off of,

    otherwise there <BR>would be crashes all the time. Plus usually if you are

    aware and you <BR>know the racing style, you will easily anticipate where

    the riders in <BR>front of you and beside you are going to go and be ready

    to react <BR>accordingly. <BR><BR>I will also add that, yeah, you might be

    responsible for your own front <BR>wheel, BUT not completely. If you are

    behind or beside someone who <BR>swerves quickly and unpredictably, you WILL

    go down, no if, thens or <BR>buts!, and it is NOT your fault, there is

    nothing you can do. Thus you <BR>are just as responsible for riding smooth

    enough to not cause problems <BR>behind you! <BR><BR>By the way, filling

    gaps and riding up beside someone is not dangerous <BR>but just normal

    racing, and does not in themselves cause crashes as <BR>someone after PIR

    tried to tell me last week. As stated, ad nauseum, <BR>erratic lateral

    movements and sudden braking cause crashes (and people <BR>that are not

    relaxed, typically those yelling "hold your line", etc). <BR>If I do come up

    kind of close to someone, I will let them know, "Oh, <BR>ahh, heh I am

    here". I am use to being tapped on the hip (which I <BR>personally don't do

    cause it freaks some out especially in lower <BR>categories). I

    use-to-be-use to ridding packed in so tight <BR>(honeycombed) that hands and

    brakehorns would touch hips occasionally. <BR>If you daydreamed at all and

    weren?t assertive in filling holes and <BR>gaps, you would be in the back in

    the matter of minutes. If wanted to <BR>consider a top 20 finish, I would

    start working, threading, a way to the <BR>front maybe 10 miles from the

    finish? But then this was also in 1989, <BR>1990, when I was not fat and

    raced a lot and fields were typically <BR>upwards of 100 riders? Of course

    now I will occasionally get assertive <BR>but usually not, no need too (and

    never ever erratic), the packs aren't <BR>huge and not tightly packed. I am

    really thankful for cat 4 racing, <BR>masters racing, cause otherwise I

    wouldn't race at all and get fat. <BR>And boy I wish I would have started on

    the track 16 yrs ago that?s some <BR>fun.... By the way I do think most of

    the racers here have great bike <BR>skills etc., etc, its just good to send

    a reminder for myself too and of <BR>course we always have the up and coming

    great ones to teach properly... <BR><BR><BR>Other notes: <BR>Looking back

    also is bad in that if you are not good at it, it causes <BR>you to ride

    erratic / jerk sideways. I had to explain this to a young <BR>green-yellow

    jersey rider at swan isle? "You do Not need to keep <BR>constantly glancing

    back, If you want the hole, just ride smoothly into <BR>it. " Now obviously

    if you are going to jerk into it (not recommended), <BR>or if there is no

    place for a possible rider to-the-side-and-back-of-you <BR>to go (ie like in

    a sprinters lane) than you should probably glance? <BR>but on the road, No,

    just be smooth?<BR><BR>Pushing a big gear generally results in an occasional

    erratic lateral <BR>movement. I see this a lot, you may think you are riding

    a straight <BR>line... Learn to spin and just one of the many many positive

    outcomes <BR>will be you won't cause crashes. Or at the very least be aware

    of it <BR>and try push the big gear smoothly. But don't worry too much if

    you push <BR>a big gear I will leave you more room. <BR><BR>On Corners I

    always leave room for guy to the inside of me if I can <BR>Not only is it a

    nice thing to do, but if you cut off the corner and <BR>they crash, their

    energy will carry to the outside and take you out too. <BR>this advice

    usually applies to Crits but PIR would be a little safer if <BR>this were

    done more out there too. <BR><BR>Training a team could do, is simply

    emphasize spin, emphasize <BR>smoothness, emphasize predictability. Train

    being relaxed while riding <BR>close to each other. Note the relax comes

    first. Wiggle them elbows.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Vicki Schroeder wrote:<BR>>

    <BR>> <BR>> Well I think a discussion about questionable racing is

    always in order.<BR><BR>> Some riders do seem to think they are

    invincible, sadly it is always<BR>> others that have to clean up their

    mess! I think there is far too<BR>> little discussion about bad riding

    and the difference between hard<BR>> racing and stupid racing. How many

    teams actively instruct (or act<BR>> against, in the worst cases) their

    riders about bad riding? <BR>> <BR>> Center line violations are very

    serious but so are other problems that<BR>> sometimes lead to horrible

    crashes (Ex: people braking heavily in tight<BR>> packs).<BR>>

    <BR>><BR><BR>To respond to

    <HR SIZE=1>

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    more. <A

    href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=32660/*http://discover.yahoo.com/online.html">Check

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David Diviney

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All this talk about close quarters, no brake racing in Europe makes me laugh. I specifically remember when the Euros and Americans who race in Europe were racing in the US last year. The common theme among them was "don't these American racers know how to use their brakes?" The exact opposite of what Larssyn and John (below) wrote. So, do they use brakes in Europe or not? I have a friend and OBRA guy who spent a year racing in Belgium who said every corner was super slow into corners and sprint out, far worse than here. I doubt Europeans race better than we do. There are more crashes in pro races in Europe than OBRA races.



john schmidt <twotireti-@yahoo.com> wrote:A couple opinions (just opinions):



The hairpin corner in my opinion should have been raced the whole width

and I thought most of the racers were?? lead cars were looking for and

ready to stop any traffic from going up when the pack was coming down,

well at least I was. Plus you could look out and see for any on-coming

cars. If I had raced I probably would have used the whole road, NOT to

breakaway but for cornering safety (many other better places to try a

break). Once again, BUT only because I could've look and seen for

oncoming cars !! The other corners, I thought they too were for full

use. This is why traffic was stopped at the intersections.



So are you sure the C-H racer was not just being safe, just trying to

stay away from timid and dangerous cornering? Those hairpins lanes were

awfully narrow. If he got a gap did you really need to "chase" him

down? I bet he wasn't planning to stay out there by himself and would

have come back shortly...



Obviously, I am not saying you can cross the yellow line, especially

when told not too. and of course do it on a blind corner or a blind

little rise, you really would be playing russian roulette. Just that

specific hairpin was maybe a special circumstance...



I almost commented on that email a couple months ago and now will since

it was posted again? The type of racing Larsyn describes is certainly

not exclusive to Europe... that she even commented on that sort of

racing implies that exposure didn't happen in Portland... In the races

I have done(in the US, and yes even here in oregon), the racing

described in Italy is generally how it works. Brakes are only for an

emergency. No one ever glances back, you just move in and fill the gap.

That does NOT mean erratic riding or hooking which is illegal. Note

her email could be misinterpreted by some to imply that?s its ok to

sideswipe (if you stick your wheel where it don't belong you might get

sideswiped), or to go "full bore from one side of the road to another".

This is not OK, for sure even in Italy, if it is erratic! Obviously,

nothing is done that other racers can't react off of, otherwise there

would be crashes all the time. Plus usually if you are aware and you

know the racing style, you will easily anticipate where the riders in

front of you and beside you are going to go and be ready to react

accordingly.



I will also add that, yeah, you might be responsible for your own front

wheel, BUT not completely. If you are behind or beside someone who

swerves quickly and unpredictably, you WILL go down, no if, thens or

buts!, and it is NOT your fault, there is nothing you can do. Thus you

are just as responsible for riding smooth enough to not cause problems

behind you!



By the way, filling gaps and riding up beside someone is not dangerous

but just normal racing, and does not in themselves cause crashes as

someone after PIR tried to tell me last week. As stated, ad nauseum,

erratic lateral movements and sudden braking cause crashes (and people

that are not relaxed, typically those yelling "hold your line", etc).

If I do come up kind of close to someone, I will let them know, "Oh,

ahh, heh I am here". I am use to being tapped on the hip (which I

personally don't do cause it freaks some out especially in lower

categories). I use-to-be-use to ridding packed in so tight

(honeycombed) that hands and brakehorns would touch hips occasionally.

If you daydreamed at all and weren?t assertive in filling holes and

gaps, you would be in the back in the matter of minutes. If wanted to

consider a top 20 finish, I would start working, threading, a way to the

front maybe 10 miles from the finish? But then this was also in 1989,

1990, when I was not fat and raced a lot and fields were typically

upwards of 100 riders? Of course now I will occasionally get assertive

but usually not, no need too (and never ever erratic), the packs aren't

huge and not tightly packed. I am really thankful for cat 4 racing,

masters racing, cause otherwise I wouldn't race at all and get fat.

And boy I wish I would have started on the track 16 yrs ago that?s some

fun.... By the way I do think most of the racers here have great bike

skills etc., etc, its just good to send a reminder for myself too and of

course we always have the up and coming great ones to teach properly...





Other notes:

Looking back also is bad in that if you are not good at it, it causes

you to ride erratic / jerk sideways. I had to explain this to a young

green-yellow jersey rider at swan isle? "You do Not need to keep

constantly glancing back, If you want the hole, just ride smoothly into

it. " Now obviously if you are going to jerk into it (not recommended),

or if there is no place for a possible rider to-the-side-and-back-of-you

to go (ie like in a sprinters lane) than you should probably glance?

but on the road, No, just be smooth?



Pushing a big gear generally results in an occasional erratic lateral

movement. I see this a lot, you may think you are riding a straight

line... Learn to spin and just one of the many many positive outcomes

will be you won't cause crashes. Or at the very least be aware of it

and try push the big gear smoothly. But don't worry too much if you push

a big gear I will leave you more room.



On Corners I always leave room for guy to the inside of me if I can

Not only is it a nice thing to do, but if you cut off the corner and

they crash, their energy will carry to the outside and take you out too.

this advice usually applies to Crits but PIR would be a little safer if

this were done more out there too.



Training a team could do, is simply emphasize spin, emphasize

smoothness, emphasize predictability. Train being relaxed while riding

close to each other. Note the relax comes first. Wiggle them elbows.







Vicki Schroeder wrote:

 



Well I think a discussion about questionable racing is always in order.

 Some riders do seem to think they are invincible, sadly it is always

others that have to clean up their mess! I think there is far too

little discussion about bad riding and the difference between hard

racing and stupid racing. How many teams actively instruct (or act

against, in the worst cases) their riders about bad riding?



Center line violations are very serious but so are other problems that

sometimes lead to horrible crashes (Ex: people braking heavily in tight

packs).

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com









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<DIV>All this talk about close quarters, no brake racing in Europe makes me laugh.  I specifically remember when the Euros and Americans who race in Europe were racing in the US last year.  The common theme among them was "don't these American racers know how to use their brakes?"  The exact opposite of what Larssyn and John (below) wrote.  So, do they use brakes in Europe or not?  I have a friend and OBRA guy who spent a year racing in Belgium who said every corner was super slow into corners and sprint out, far worse than here.  I doubt Europeans race better than we do.  There are more crashes in pro races in Europe than OBRA races.<BR><BR><B><I>john schmidt <twotireti-@yahoo.com></I></B> wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">A couple opinions (just opinions):<BR><BR>The hairpin corner in my opinion should have been raced the whole width <BR>and I thought most of the racers were?? lead cars were looking for and <BR>ready to stop any traffic from going up when the pack was coming down, <BR>well at least I was. Plus you could look out and see for any on-coming <BR>cars. If I had raced I probably would have used the whole road, NOT to <BR>breakaway but for cornering safety (many other better places to try a <BR>break). Once again, BUT only because I could've look and seen for <BR>oncoming cars !! The other corners, I thought they too were for full <BR>use. This is why traffic was stopped at the intersections. <BR><BR>So are you sure the C-H racer was not just being safe, just trying to <BR>stay away from timid and dangerous cornering? Those hairpins lanes were <BR>awfully narrow. If he got a gap did you

really need to "chase" him <BR>down? I bet he wasn't planning to stay out there by himself and would <BR>have come back shortly... <BR><BR>Obviously, I am not saying you can cross the yellow line, especially <BR>when told not too. and of course do it on a blind corner or a blind <BR>little rise, you really would be playing russian roulette. Just that <BR>specific hairpin was maybe a special circumstance... <BR><BR>I almost commented on that email a couple months ago and now will since <BR>it was posted again? The type of racing Larsyn describes is certainly <BR>not exclusive to Europe... that she even commented on that sort of <BR>racing implies that exposure didn't happen in Portland... In the races <BR>I have done(in the US, and yes even here in oregon), the racing <BR>described in Italy is generally how it works. Brakes are only for an <BR>emergency. No one ever glances back, you just move in and fill the gap. <BR>That does NOT mean erratic riding or hooking which is illegal.

Note <BR>her email could be misinterpreted by some to imply that?s its ok to <BR>sideswipe (if you stick your wheel where it don't belong you might get <BR>sideswiped), or to go "full bore from one side of the road to another". <BR>This is not OK, for sure even in Italy, if it is erratic! Obviously, <BR>nothing is done that other racers can't react off of, otherwise there <BR>would be crashes all the time. Plus usually if you are aware and you <BR>know the racing style, you will easily anticipate where the riders in <BR>front of you and beside you are going to go and be ready to react <BR>accordingly. <BR><BR>I will also add that, yeah, you might be responsible for your own front <BR>wheel, BUT not completely. If you are behind or beside someone who <BR>swerves quickly and unpredictably, you WILL go down, no if, thens or <BR>buts!, and it is NOT your fault, there is nothing you can do. Thus you <BR>are just as responsible for riding smooth enough to not cause problems <BR>behind

you! <BR><BR>By the way, filling gaps and riding up beside someone is not dangerous <BR>but just normal racing, and does not in themselves cause crashes as <BR>someone after PIR tried to tell me last week. As stated, ad nauseum, <BR>erratic lateral movements and sudden braking cause crashes (and people <BR>that are not relaxed, typically those yelling "hold your line", etc). <BR>If I do come up kind of close to someone, I will let them know, "Oh, <BR>ahh, heh I am here". I am use to being tapped on the hip (which I <BR>personally don't do cause it freaks some out especially in lower <BR>categories). I use-to-be-use to ridding packed in so tight <BR>(honeycombed) that hands and brakehorns would touch hips occasionally. <BR>If you daydreamed at all and weren?t assertive in filling holes and <BR>gaps, you would be in the back in the matter of minutes. If wanted to <BR>consider a top 20 finish, I would start working, threading, a way to the <BR>front maybe 10 miles from the finish? But

then this was also in 1989, <BR>1990, when I was not fat and raced a lot and fields were typically <BR>upwards of 100 riders? Of course now I will occasionally get assertive <BR>but usually not, no need too (and never ever erratic), the packs aren't <BR>huge and not tightly packed. I am really thankful for cat 4 racing, <BR>masters racing, cause otherwise I wouldn't race at all and get fat. <BR>And boy I wish I would have started on the track 16 yrs ago that?s some <BR>fun.... By the way I do think most of the racers here have great bike <BR>skills etc., etc, its just good to send a reminder for myself too and of <BR>course we always have the up and coming great ones to teach properly... <BR><BR><BR>Other notes: <BR>Looking back also is bad in that if you are not good at it, it causes <BR>you to ride erratic / jerk sideways. I had to explain this to a young <BR>green-yellow jersey rider at swan isle? "You do Not need to keep <BR>constantly glancing back, If you want the hole, just

ride smoothly into <BR>it. " Now obviously if you are going to jerk into it (not recommended), <BR>or if there is no place for a possible rider to-the-side-and-back-of-you <BR>to go (ie like in a sprinters lane) than you should probably glance? <BR>but on the road, No, just be smooth?<BR><BR>Pushing a big gear generally results in an occasional erratic lateral <BR>movement. I see this a lot, you may think you are riding a straight <BR>line... Learn to spin and just one of the many many positive outcomes <BR>will be you won't cause crashes. Or at the very least be aware of it <BR>and try push the big gear smoothly. But don't worry too much if you push <BR>a big gear I will leave you more room. <BR><BR>On Corners I always leave room for guy to the inside of me if I can <BR>Not only is it a nice thing to do, but if you cut off the corner and <BR>they crash, their energy will carry to the outside and take you out too. <BR>this advice usually applies to Crits but PIR would be a little

safer if <BR>this were done more out there too. <BR><BR>Training a team could do, is simply emphasize spin, emphasize <BR>smoothness, emphasize predictability. Train being relaxed while riding <BR>close to each other. Note the relax comes first. Wiggle them elbows.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Vicki Schroeder wrote:<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> Well I think a discussion about questionable racing is always in order.<BR><BR>> Some riders do seem to think they are invincible, sadly it is always<BR>> others that have to clean up their mess! I think there is far too<BR>> little discussion about bad riding and the difference between hard<BR>> racing and stupid racing. How many teams actively instruct (or act<BR>> against, in the worst cases) their riders about bad riding? <BR>> <BR>> Center line violations are very serious but so are other problems that<BR>> sometimes lead to horrible crashes (Ex: people braking heavily in tight<BR>> packs).<BR>> <BR>><BR><BR>To respond to

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john schmidt

A couple opinions (just opinions):



The hairpin corner in my opinion should have been raced the whole width

and I thought most of the racers were?? lead cars were looking for and

ready to stop any traffic from going up when the pack was coming down,

well at least I was.   Plus you could look out and see for any on-coming

cars. If I had raced I probably would have used the whole road, NOT to

breakaway but for cornering safety (many other better places to try a

break). Once again, BUT only because I could've look and seen for

oncoming cars !! The other corners, I thought they too were for full

use.   This is why traffic was stopped at the intersections.



So are you sure the C-H racer was not just being safe, just trying to

stay away from timid and dangerous cornering? Those hairpins lanes were

awfully narrow. If he got a gap did you really need to "chase" him

down? I bet he wasn't planning to stay out there by himself and would

have come back shortly...



Obviously, I am not saying you can cross the yellow line, especially

when told not too. and of course do it on a blind corner or a blind

little rise, you really would be playing russian roulette.   Just that

specific hairpin was maybe a special circumstance...



I almost commented on that email a couple months ago and now will since

it was posted again? The type of racing Larsyn describes is certainly

not exclusive to Europe... that she even commented on that sort of

racing implies that exposure didn't happen in Portland... In the races

I have done(in the US, and yes even here in oregon), the racing

described in Italy is generally how it works. Brakes are only for an

emergency. No one ever glances back, you just move in and fill the gap.

That does NOT mean erratic riding or hooking which is illegal. Note

her email could be misinterpreted by some to imply that?s its ok to

sideswipe (if you stick your wheel where it don't belong you might get

sideswiped), or to go "full bore from one side of the road to another".

This is not OK, for sure even in Italy, if it is erratic! Obviously,

nothing is done that other racers can't react off of, otherwise there

would be crashes all the time. Plus usually if you are aware and you

know the racing style, you will easily anticipate where the riders in

front of you and beside you are going to go and be ready to react

accordingly.   



I will also add that, yeah, you might be responsible for your own front

wheel, BUT not completely. If you are behind or beside someone who

swerves quickly and unpredictably, you WILL go down, no if, thens or

buts!, and it is NOT your fault, there is nothing you can do. Thus you

are just as responsible for riding smooth enough to not cause problems

behind you!    



By the way, filling gaps and riding up beside someone is not dangerous

but just normal racing, and does not in themselves cause crashes as

someone after PIR tried to tell me last week. As stated, ad nauseum,

erratic lateral movements and sudden braking cause crashes (and people

that are not relaxed, typically those yelling "hold your line", etc).   

If I do come up kind of close to someone, I will let them know, "Oh,

ahh, heh I am here".   I am use to being tapped on the hip (which I

personally don't do cause it freaks some out especially in lower

categories). I use-to-be-use to ridding packed in so tight

(honeycombed) that hands and brakehorns would touch hips occasionally.

If you daydreamed at all and weren?t assertive in filling holes and

gaps, you would be in the back in the matter of minutes. If wanted to

consider a top 20 finish, I would start working, threading, a way to the

front maybe 10 miles from the finish? But then this was also in 1989,

1990, when I was not fat and raced a lot and fields were typically

upwards of 100 riders? Of course now I will occasionally get assertive

but usually not, no need too (and never ever erratic), the packs aren't

huge and not tightly packed. I am really thankful for cat 4 racing,

masters racing, cause otherwise I wouldn't race at all and get fat.   

And boy I wish I would have started on the track 16 yrs ago that?s some

fun.... By the way I do think most of the racers here have great bike

skills etc., etc, its just good to send a reminder for myself too and of

course we always have the up and coming great ones to teach properly...





Other notes:   

Looking back also is bad in that if you are not good at it, it causes

you to ride erratic / jerk sideways. I had to explain this to a young

green-yellow jersey rider at swan isle? "You do Not need to keep

constantly glancing back, If you want the hole, just ride smoothly into

it. " Now obviously if you are going to jerk into it (not recommended),

or if there is no place for a possible rider to-the-side-and-back-of-you

to go (ie like in a sprinters lane) than you should probably glance?

but on the road, No, just be smooth?



Pushing a big gear generally results in an occasional erratic lateral

movement.   I see this a lot, you may think you are riding a straight

line... Learn to spin and just one of the many many positive outcomes

will be you won't cause crashes. Or at the very least be aware of it

and try push the big gear smoothly. But don't worry too much if you push

a big gear I will leave you more room.



On Corners I always leave room for guy to the inside of me if I can   

Not only is it a nice thing to do, but if you cut off the corner and

they crash, their energy will carry to the outside and take you out too.

this advice usually applies to Crits but PIR would be a little safer if

this were done more out there too.



Training a team could do, is simply emphasize spin, emphasize

smoothness, emphasize predictability. Train being relaxed while riding

close to each other. Note the relax comes first. Wiggle them elbows.







Vicki Schroeder wrote:

 



Well I think a discussion about questionable racing is always in order.

 Some riders do seem to think they are invincible, sadly it is always

others that have to clean up their mess! I think there is far too

little discussion about bad riding and the difference between hard

racing and stupid racing. How many teams actively instruct (or act

against, in the worst cases) their riders about bad riding?



Center line violations are very serious but so are other problems that

sometimes lead to horrible crashes (Ex: people braking heavily in tight

packs).

Vicki Schroeder

Well I think a discussion about questionable racing is always in order.

Some riders do seem to think they are invincible, sadly it is always

others that have to clean up their mess! I think there is far too

little discussion about bad riding and the difference between hard

racing and stupid racing. How many teams actively instruct (or act

against, in the worst cases) their riders about bad riding?



Center line violations are very serious but so are other problems that

sometimes lead to horrible crashes (Ex: people braking heavily in tight

packs).



I'd like to include a piece of a race report sent out by Beaverton's

own Larsyn Staley some months ago about her racing experience in Italy

- it has some very fine pointers in it and I think it sets straight to

some extent the difference between hard fought racing, where people

take responsibility for themselves, and stupid racing!



*Europe has their own set of rules.



Two weeks ago I had my first race in Italy. After that race I

couldn't?t get over the chaotic mess of the field. However, having that

race under my belt, I rode in the field with ease this weekend. I don?t

know if the racing in Italy is really chaotic, I?m beginning to think

it's just different from the US. In the US we say that you're

responsible for your front wheel, no one else. If you stick it

somewhere it doesn?t belong it's your fault, not the fault the person

in front of you who might happen to sideswipe you. In Italy this is

multiplied infinitely. It is not a question of if you will get

sideswiped, because you will. You always must be in control of your

bike because they don?t use brakes here and if you do you will get sent

flying to the back of the field.



So here are a couple of tips.



Number one, stay in control of yourself and your bike, because you?re

the only one responsible for yourself. I?ve yet to see anyone look over

their shoulder before charging full bore from the right side of the

road to the left or vice versa. I?ve personally discovered that, if you

first look over your shoulder you?re too late and will be swallowed by

the field



Number two, when racing in Italy you don?t use your brakes. Except in

extreme measures you don?t need them. Once you get the hang of things

you can begin to see paths that in American, are considered brick

walls. But in Italy if you flow with the field you can move up

considerable positions with no effort at all.



Number three, just to clarify things, there is no such thing as

?staying? at the front. If you want to stay at the front of the field

you must consciously, continually move up in position. My theory is

that if you can master this, that it will become an unconscious action

and then you will have mastered the ability to ?stay? at the front of

the field in an ever rotating position. I?ll let you know in a couple

weeks, but it worked this weekend.

Schreck, George

Your posting is appropriate. On behalf of the Huntair team, we

appologize for the rider in question.   



-----Original Message-----

From: Jeff Fuchs [mailto:jfu-@toast.net]

Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 9:32 PM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Questionable racing



I hesitate to post this message because I'm sure I will get crucified by



some people. But, I think the issue is important enough to risk a public



flogging.



In today's Cat. 3/4/5 race, officials were very clear (as always) that

we were not to supposed to cross the centerline during the race. They

specifically pointed out the steep 2-turn hairpin descent as a place

that we were supposed to pay special attention to staying in our lane.



Unfortunately, rider #531 from the Corben-Huntair team must not have

heard what I heard. Both times we raced down the hill, he moved to the

front of the cahse group and then chose to ride the fastest line through



the 2-turn swithcback. On each turn he crossed well into the opposing

travel lane. Of course he was much faster descending than the rest of

us. We braked and rode slowly enough to stay in our lane. Then we chased



hard to close the gap.



Now, I understand how you can cross the centerline when you over cook a

turn or get forced across the line by other riders. But when you

intentionally ride across the line in order to descend faster or pass

another rider, that is akin to cheating. It is also pretty dangerous.



After the first descent I tried the direct approach and I reminded rider



#531 about the centerline rule. This had no effect and the next time

down the hill he gapped us by 5 to 10-seconds.



The funny thing is that he was probably the strongest rider in the chase



group. he didn't need to cross the centerline. He could have followed

the same rules that the rest of us followed and he still would have

finished ahead of us.





Jeff Fuchs

#830



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Jeff:



Anyone who flames you for your message probably has not seen the carnage of someone hit head-on by a car. I have seen this occur twice in races, one of which I witnessed that resulted in a fatality to the cyclist, and one in which I saw the body of a race who had been hit only moments before.



In one of those instances, the cyclists body was thrown back into the field of riders causing a terrible crash in which there were multiple broken bones.



I not certain if many people know what a crushed face and chest cavity looks like, but I will tell you it makes you ill and I still cannot get the images out of my mind.



People who cross the centerline intentionally have no consideration for their fellow racers and deserve our collective criticism.



Seriously, if one wants to kill themselve by riding across the centerline, why not do us all a favor and simply put a gun in their mouths in the comfort of their own home?



Ted



Jeff Fuchs <jfu-@toast.net> wrote:

I hesitate to post this message because I?m sure I will get crucified by

some people. But, I think the issue is important enough to risk a public

flogging.



In today?s Cat. 3/4/5 race, officials were very clear (as always) that

we were not to supposed to cross the centerline during the race. They

specifically pointed out the steep 2-turn hairpin descent as a place

that we were supposed to pay special attention to staying in our lane.



Unfortunately, rider #531 from the Corben-Huntair team must not have

heard what I heard. Both times we raced down the hill, he moved to the

front of the cahse group and then chose to ride the fastest line through

the 2-turn swithcback. On each turn he crossed well into the opposing

travel lane. Of course he was much faster descending than the rest of

us. We braked and rode slowly enough to stay in our lane. Then we chased

hard to close the gap.



Now, I understand how you can cross the centerline when you over cook a

turn or get forced across the line by other riders. But when you

intentionally ride across the line in order to descend faster or pass

another rider, that is akin to cheating. It is also pretty dangerous.



After the first descent I tried the direct approach and I reminded rider

#531 about the centerline rule. This had no effect and the next time

down the hill he gapped us by 5 to 10-seconds.



The funny thing is that he was probably the strongest rider in the chase

group. he didn?t need to cross the centerline. He could have followed

the same rules that the rest of us followed and he still would have

finished ahead of us.





Jeff Fuchs

#830









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<DIV>

<DIV>

<DIV>Jeff:</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>Anyone who flames you for your message probably has not seen the carnage of someone hit head-on by a car.  I have seen this occur twice in races, one of which I witnessed that resulted in a fatality to the cyclist, and one in which I saw the body of a race who had been hit only moments before.</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>In one of those instances, the cyclists body was thrown back into the field of riders causing a terrible crash in which there were multiple broken bones.  </DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>I not certain if many people know what a crushed face and chest cavity looks like, but I will tell you it makes you ill and I still cannot get the images out of my mind. </DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>People who cross the centerline intentionally have no consideration for their fellow racers and deserve our collective criticism.</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>Seriously, if one wants to kill themselve by riding across the centerline, why not do us all a favor and simply put a gun in their mouths in the comfort of their own home?</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>Ted <BR><BR><B><I>Jeff Fuchs <jfu-@toast.net></I></B> wrote:</DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">I hesitate to post this message because I?m sure I will get crucified by <BR>some people. But, I think the issue is important enough to risk a public <BR>flogging.<BR><BR>In today?s Cat. 3/4/5 race, officials were very clear (as always) that <BR>we were not to supposed to cross the centerline during the race. They <BR>specifically pointed out the steep 2-turn hairpin descent as a place <BR>that we were supposed to pay special attention to staying in our lane.<BR><BR>Unfortunately, rider #531 from the Corben-Huntair team must not have <BR>heard what I heard. Both times we raced down the hill, he moved to the <BR>front of the cahse group and then chose to ride the fastest line through <BR>the 2-turn swithcback. On each turn he crossed well into the opposing <BR>travel lane. Of course he was much faster descending than the rest of <BR>us. We braked and rode slowly enough to stay in our

lane. Then we chased <BR>hard to close the gap.<BR><BR>Now, I understand how you can cross the centerline when you over cook a <BR>turn or get forced across the line by other riders. But when you <BR>intentionally ride across the line in order to descend faster or pass <BR>another rider, that is akin to cheating. It is also pretty dangerous.<BR><BR>After the first descent I tried the direct approach and I reminded rider <BR>#531 about the centerline rule. This had no effect and the next time <BR>down the hill he gapped us by 5 to 10-seconds. <BR><BR>The funny thing is that he was probably the strongest rider in the chase <BR>group. he didn?t need to cross the centerline. He could have followed <BR>the same rules that the rest of us followed and he still would have <BR>finished ahead of us. <BR><BR><BR>Jeff Fuchs<BR>#830<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></DIV><p>

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--0-1523462948-1118669566=:81681--

Jeff Fuchs

I hesitate to post this message because I?m sure I will get crucified by

some people. But, I think the issue is important enough to risk a public

flogging.



In today?s Cat. 3/4/5 race, officials were very clear (as always) that

we were not to supposed to cross the centerline during the race. They

specifically pointed out the steep 2-turn hairpin descent as a place

that we were supposed to pay special attention to staying in our lane.



Unfortunately, rider #531 from the Corben-Huntair team must not have

heard what I heard. Both times we raced down the hill, he moved to the

front of the cahse group and then chose to ride the fastest line through

the 2-turn swithcback. On each turn he crossed well into the opposing

travel lane. Of course he was much faster descending than the rest of

us. We braked and rode slowly enough to stay in our lane. Then we chased

hard to close the gap.



Now, I understand how you can cross the centerline when you over cook a

turn or get forced across the line by other riders. But when you

intentionally ride across the line in order to descend faster or pass

another rider, that is akin to cheating. It is also pretty dangerous.



After the first descent I tried the direct approach and I reminded rider

#531 about the centerline rule. This had no effect and the next time

down the hill he gapped us by 5 to 10-seconds.



The funny thing is that he was probably the strongest rider in the chase

group. he didn?t need to cross the centerline. He could have followed

the same rules that the rest of us followed and he still would have

finished ahead of us.





Jeff Fuchs

#830