mark duff
What does racing in europe have do with it period, we all have brakes and we
us them. Some more than others...The only time you race and dont use your
brakes is on the track. So everyone pray for no rain so we can race the six
day!!!
Cheers
Mark Duff
Guinness
From: Danny Knudsen <dannyk-@msn.com>
Reply-To: dannyk-@msn.com
To: obra <ob-@topica.com>
Subject: Fw: [OBRA Chat] Questionable racing
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 12:32:15 -0700
----- Original Message -----
From: Danny Knudsen<mailto:dannyk-@msn.com>
To: davidd-@yahoo.com<mailto:davidd-@yahoo.com> ;
ob-@topica.com<mailto:ob-@topica.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 7:06 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Questionable racing
The point has been lost? The rider went over the center line! that is wrong
and against the rules. Will any of you have the same conversation with the
riders friends and family when the ride was hit from going over the center
line our when the family is suing the promoter (I doubt it).
I have raced in Europe and using your brakes have nothing to do with going
over the center line or disregarding one of the most basic rule of racing.
Danny Knudsen
----- Original Message -----
From: David Diviney<mailto:davidd-@yahoo.com>
To: ob-@topica.com<mailto:ob-@topica.com>
Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 9:56 PM
Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Questionable racing
All this talk about close quarters, no brake racing in Europe makes me
laugh. I specifically remember when the Euros and Americans who race in
Europe were racing in the US last year. The common theme among them was
"don't these American racers know how to use their brakes?" The exact
opposite of what Larssyn and John (below) wrote. So, do they use brakes in
Europe or not? I have a friend and OBRA guy who spent a year racing in
Belgium who said every corner was super slow into corners and sprint out,
far worse than here. I doubt Europeans race better than we do. There are
more crashes in pro races in Europe than OBRA races.
john schmidt <twotireti-@yahoo.com> wrote:
A couple opinions (just opinions):
The hairpin corner in my opinion should have been raced the whole
width
and I thought most of the racers were.? lead cars were looking for and
ready to stop any traffic from going up when the pack was coming down,
well at least I was. Plus you could look out and see for any on-coming
cars. If I had raced I probably would have used the whole road, NOT to
breakaway but for cornering safety (many other better places to try a
break). Once again, BUT only because I could've look and seen for
oncoming cars !! The other corners, I thought they too were for full
use. This is why traffic was stopped at the intersections.
So are you sure the C-H racer was not just being safe, just trying to
stay away from timid and dangerous cornering? Those hairpins lanes
were
awfully narrow. If he got a gap did you really need to "chase" him
down? I bet he wasn't planning to stay out there by himself and would
have come back shortly...
Obviously, I am not saying you can cross the yellow line, especially
when told not too. and of course do it on a blind corner or a blind
little rise, you really would be playing russian roulette. Just that
specific hairpin was maybe a special circumstance...
I almost commented on that email a couple months ago and now will
since
it was posted again. The type of racing Larsyn describes is certainly
not exclusive to Europe... that she even commented on that sort of
racing implies that exposure didn't happen in Portland... In the races
I have done(in the US, and yes even here in oregon), the racing
described in Italy is generally how it works. Brakes are only for an
emergency. No one ever glances back, you just move in and fill the
gap.
That does NOT mean erratic riding or hooking which is illegal. Note
her email could be misinterpreted by some to imply that's its ok to
sideswipe (if you stick your wheel where it don't belong you might get
sideswiped), or to go "full bore from one side of the road to
another".
This is not OK, for sure even in Italy, if it is erratic! Obviously,
nothing is done that other racers can't react off of, otherwise there
would be crashes all the time. Plus usually if you are aware and you
know the racing style, you will easily anticipate where the riders in
front of you and beside you are going to go and be ready to react
accordingly.
I will also add that, yeah, you might be responsible for your own
front
wheel, BUT not completely. If you are behind or beside someone who
swerves quickly and unpredictably, you WILL go down, no if, thens or
buts!, and it is NOT your fault, there is nothing you can do. Thus you
are just as responsible for riding smooth enough to not cause problems
behind you!
By the way, filling gaps and riding up beside someone is not dangerous
but just normal racing, and does not in themselves cause crashes as
someone after PIR tried to tell me last week. As stated, ad nauseum,
erratic lateral movements and sudden braking cause crashes (and people
that are not relaxed, typically those yelling "hold your line", etc).
If I do come up kind of close to someone, I will let them know, "Oh,
ahh, heh I am here". I am use to being tapped on the hip (which I
personally don't do cause it freaks some out especially in lower
categories). I use-to-be-use to ridding packed in so tight
(honeycombed) that hands and brakehorns would touch hips occasionally.
If you daydreamed at all and weren't assertive in filling holes and
gaps, you would be in the back in the matter of minutes. If wanted to
consider a top 20 finish, I would start working, threading, a way to
the
front maybe 10 miles from the finish. But then this was also in 1989,
1990, when I was not fat and raced a lot and fields were typically
upwards of 100 riders. Of course now I will occasionally get assertive
but usually not, no need too (and never ever erratic), the packs
aren't
huge and not tightly packed. I am really thankful for cat 4 racing,
masters racing, cause otherwise I wouldn't race at all and get fat.
And boy I wish I would have started on the track 16 yrs ago that's
some
fun.... By the way I do think most of the racers here have great bike
skills etc., etc, its just good to send a reminder for myself too and
of
course we always have the up and coming great ones to teach
properly...
Other notes:
Looking back also is bad in that if you are not good at it, it causes
you to ride erratic / jerk sideways. I had to explain this to a young
green-yellow jersey rider at swan isle. "You do Not need to keep
constantly glancing back, If you want the hole, just ride smoothly
into
it. " Now obviously if you are going to jerk into it (not
recommended),
or if there is no place for a possible rider
to-the-side-and-back-of-you
to go (ie like in a sprinters lane) than you should probably glance.
but on the road, No, just be smooth.
Pushing a big gear generally results in an occasional erratic lateral
movement. I see this a lot, you may think you are riding a straight
line... Learn to spin and just one of the many many positive outcomes
will be you won't cause crashes. Or at the very least be aware of it
and try push the big gear smoothly. But don't worry too much if you
push
a big gear I will leave you more room.
On Corners I always leave room for guy to the inside of me if I can
Not only is it a nice thing to do, but if you cut off the corner and
they crash, their energy will carry to the outside and take you out
too.
this advice usually applies to Crits but PIR would be a little safer
if
this were done more out there too.
Training a team could do, is simply emphasize spin, emphasize
smoothness, emphasize predictability. Train being relaxed while riding
close to each other. Note the relax comes first. Wiggle them elbows.
Vicki Schroeder wrote:
>
>
> Well I think a discussion about questionable racing is always in
order.
> Some riders do seem to think they are invincible, sadly it is always
> others that have to clean up their mess! I think there is far too
> little discussion about bad riding and the difference between hard
> racing and stupid racing. How many teams actively instruct (or act
> against, in the worst cases) their riders about bad riding?
>
> Center line violations are very serious but so are other problems
that
> sometimes lead to horrible crashes (Ex: people braking heavily in
tight
> packs).
>
>
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