Ken Finch

Gary,



Some advice I can give (as a terminal Cat 4 who has

seen the tactics you mention more then a few times) is

that there are other ways to get around a team or

riders plugging up the front of a race. I see a lot of

riders trying to attack or ride off the front. I don't

really think this is the best way to do this though. I

think it's actually much more effective to attack from

the middle or even back of a group. This way you can

swing off the side and accelerate past the front of

the pack. By the time you hit the front, you should be

going quite a bit faster which will discourage anyone

from jumping on your wheel.



If you want to take someone with you, talk to them

before you go and let them know. The important thing

here is the speed and acceleration. You really need to

"pop" off the group, not just slowly accelerate away.



Anyway, I hope this helps. I could keep talking about

stuff like this but I can't type that fast! Good luck!



Ken Finch



--- Jerald Powell <jpow-@spiritone.com> wrote:



 Gary, and John... I have great respect for John's

words, and for his

racing. He's right that blocking is negative

racing... but it is

racing, and it sounds like it was being done fairly

well, particularly

for a riders at a 4-5 level. Junking up the pace

line in a chase can

be as subtile as just not pulling, or more

blatantly... refusing to

pull through/pull off. Done badly (as it often is),

it's aggressively

getting in other rider's way, and that's generally

dangerous. John's

preference is to ride aggressively and in my

opinion, he's right. I'd

point out that "sitting in" not working when others

want to could also

be "blocking" in a fairly passive form. You're

denying the attacker

the opportunity to have his team-mate on his wheel.

It has value in

keeping two team-mates from leapfrogging to get a

gap.



I guess I can see that team tactics have a place in

a training race,

even though it really does change the race. You

benefit from their

tactics by learning how to circumvent them. They

can learn how to

execute team tactics appropriately, if they use the

opportunity. So

I'd hesitate to be quite as ready to condemn them.



Lastly, as someone often riding as a solo entry in

fields with teams

present (although in recent years mostly on the

track), I'd advise that

your best defense against getting teamed is being

hyper-vigilant, learn

where you have to be (position-wise) to cover any

break that has a

chance at getting away so that you don't have to dig

too deep chasing

back on the serious break when it happens. Try not

to let any group of

same-team riders set up an attack from the back

without your being able

to react. Stay in contact with the front (noting

this isn't a hundred

rider road race) so that two or three riders can't

gap you back in

traffic. Realize that coalitions of unaffiliated

riders can and do

occur fairly fluidly in bike races... so figure out

who you can (or

would want to) work with if you have the

opportunity.



Just my two bits... and good luck next week.



Jerry Powell



On Jun 15, 2005, at 4:22 PM, Gary Malcolm wrote:



 I couldn't agree more. Last night's race tactics

(junking up the

 paceline) just struck me as cheap... and not the

way I'd like to win.

 But as I was told in no uncertain terms, "that's

racing." The thing

 that REALLY bewilders me is that this was a CAT

4/5 race. Nobody's

 going pro, we're all just racing for kicks, then

why would five guys

 from Hutch's in a twelve man group give up any

chance of winning? Can

 there really be glory in scoring points for the

team in such a small

 field?



I'll try to use the good advice so many have

given me today to make

 sure the same tactic won't work next week ;0)



Gary



On 6/15/05, J Bravard <jb24-@yahoo.com>

wrote:Gary -

  ?

I'll give my (and many others') opinion on one

subject below:

  blocking.

?

Blocking is not racing. It is a negative tactic

that allows racers to

  do well with little regard to thier strengths,

but instead due to the

  sheer number of people racing with the same

clothing. It is a novice

  and negative tactic that is best avoided.

?

It is more sporting - and no less beneficial to a

team with good

  numbers and strong riders?in a race - to race

aggressively. Ways to

  do this include: attacking often, then attacking

more, covering

  bridge attempts by others (sometimes working even

when there are

  teammates up the road); sitting BEHIND those who

want to work, and

  then attacking to bridge to the break, or

attacking once the break is

  caught; or using a key point in a race (crosswind

section, climb,

  etc...) to drive the race as a team to split the

field (easier said

  than done, of course). The key is to avoid

negative tactics in favor

  of aggressive tactics...especially in a weekly

series race where one

  team can make up half the field.

?

John



 At June 15, 2005 9:29:43 AM PDT, Gary Malcolm

wrote:

   

... I need some experienced rider thoughts.



Yesterday was my least fun racing experience.

Ever. Including?

   races where I flatted.



I was riding the Eugene Twilight 4/5 Crit with

~12 riders, 5 of

   which were from one team (Hutch's). Typically,

the day started with

   immediate attacks as a Hutch's and a Collin's

rider popped out on a

   slight gap... then a Novarra rider started to

bridge and I began to

   follow. two laps later I was caught in between

the leaders and the

   pack, puffing away and feeling tired. Perhaps, I

could have

   bridged... maybe... but I saw that the group was

closer than the

   leaders so I sat up in hopes of getting help

from the chasers. This,

   I admit, was a key error. The group was being

man-handled by Hutch's

   riders who got themselves lodged in between

riders who were willing

   to work. Very annoying... whenever you wanted to

take a pull you

   needed to pass two or three riders to get to the

front. As a team

   plan it worked magnificently. I, however, am not

on that team so I

   was boiling over with frustration.



When the break finally lapped us I was so

verklempt I just sat up.

   I was mad at Hutch's, mad at the other riders...

but mostly just mad

   at myself for missing the break.



So here are my questions:



1. How over the top heartrate-wise should a

rider put themselves in

   catching a break? I'm always paranoid of

exploding and being

   swallowed up.



2. How do you deal with blocking? It seems

dangerous to push a

   rider off of a wheel (especially at my skill

level), but is that

   just part of racing? Jamming up the bunch feels

really rude, maybe

   turn about is fair play on my part?



3. When do you bridge to break? It seems if you

bridge immediately

   you tend to carry the pack... and if you bridge

too late then too

   bad for you (or me in this case)!



4. When you get to a break... and just hang on,

when does custom

   dictate you should work or is it all up to race

tactics? Is it OK

   for me to bridge and then suck wheel for a few

laps?

   

Any advice or musings would be helpful.

=== message truncated ===





__________________________________________________

Do You Yahoo!?

Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around

http://mail.yahoo.com

Kirk Willett

Gary Malcolm wrote:



 So here are my questions:



1. How over the top heartrate-wise should a rider put themselves in

catching

a break? I'm always paranoid of exploding and being swallowed up.



2. How do you deal with blocking? It seems dangerous to push a rider off

of

a wheel (especially at my skill level), but is that just part of racing?



Jamming up the bunch feels really rude, maybe turn about is fair play on

my

part?



3. When do you bridge to break? It seems if you bridge immediately you

tend

to carry the pack... and if you bridge too late then too bad for you (or

me

in this case)!



4. When you get to a break... and just hang on, when does custom dictate

you

should work or is it all up to race tactics? Is it OK for me to bridge

and

then suck wheel for a few laps?



Any advice or musings would be helpful.



Thanks,



Gary

Hi Gary,



1) If you decide to bridge to a break?it should be all or nothing.

Judging whether or not you have the power to get across is something

that just takes experience. Often, you just have to try to see what you

can do?and learn something about yourself!



2) I will second John Bravard?s great points/suggestions. There is very

little full-on ?blocking? of an organizing chase in professional racing

with the exception of a few. It?s a respect thing in addition to John?s

great points. You?ll often see a team who has a rider up the road

gathering towards the front, but it?s mostly to position to cover anyone

trying to bridge across, jump across themselves to bolster the move if

the opportunity presents itself, or to counter rather than to physically

impede an organized chase. It?s often beneficial like John said to sit

back, relax, and let the chasers wear themselves out than to waste

energy trying to plug up a chase when one has a teammate up the

road?especially when you realize that the chasers will often just plain

make life unpleasant if you get in the way (this week or next week?it

comes around!). To each their own though!



3) There is no substitute for experience here when matching what the

course dictates with what the other riders are doing in conjunction with

insight into your own abilities. You just have to try and learn! Never

fear trying something, but always take note of what happens.



4) It?s just fine to catch your breath for a minute. In most

situations, the riders in the break will be happy that some extra

horsepower has come up to help. It?s pretty much assumed that you will

need to recover?but you will be expected to lend a hand in pretty short

order! Sometimes though, you might be joining a group which is quite

happy with its composition?and they may try to surge you straight off

the back! Now that?s racing!



Best of luck and have fun out there! Cheers, Kirk

Jerald Powell

--Apple-Mail-1-989401267

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Content-Type: text/plain;

charset=ISO-8859-1;

format=flowed



Gary, and John... I have great respect for John's words, and for his

racing. He's right that blocking is negative racing... but it is

racing, and it sounds like it was being done fairly well, particularly

for a riders at a 4-5 level. Junking up the pace line in a chase can

be as subtile as just not pulling, or more blatantly... refusing to

pull through/pull off. Done badly (as it often is), it's aggressively

getting in other rider's way, and that's generally dangerous. John's

preference is to ride aggressively and in my opinion, he's right. I'd

point out that "sitting in" not working when others want to could also

be "blocking" in a fairly passive form. You're denying the attacker

the opportunity to have his team-mate on his wheel. It has value in

keeping two team-mates from leapfrogging to get a gap.



I guess I can see that team tactics have a place in a training race,

even though it really does change the race. You benefit from their

tactics by learning how to circumvent them. They can learn how to

execute team tactics appropriately, if they use the opportunity. So

I'd hesitate to be quite as ready to condemn them.



Lastly, as someone often riding as a solo entry in fields with teams

present (although in recent years mostly on the track), I'd advise that

your best defense against getting teamed is being hyper-vigilant, learn

where you have to be (position-wise) to cover any break that has a

chance at getting away so that you don't have to dig too deep chasing

back on the serious break when it happens. Try not to let any group of

same-team riders set up an attack from the back without your being able

to react. Stay in contact with the front (noting this isn't a hundred

rider road race) so that two or three riders can't gap you back in

traffic. Realize that coalitions of unaffiliated riders can and do

occur fairly fluidly in bike races... so figure out who you can (or

would want to) work with if you have the opportunity.



Just my two bits... and good luck next week.



Jerry Powell



On Jun 15, 2005, at 4:22 PM, Gary Malcolm wrote:



 I couldn't agree more. Last night's race tactics (junking up the

paceline) just struck me as cheap... and not the way I'd like to win.

But as I was told in no uncertain terms, "that's racing." The thing

that REALLY bewilders me is that this was a CAT 4/5 race. Nobody's

going pro, we're all just racing for kicks, then why would five guys

from Hutch's in a twelve man group give up any chance of winning? Can

there really be glory in scoring points for the team in such a small

field?



I'll try to use the good advice so many have given me today to make

sure the same tactic won't work next week ;0)



Gary



On 6/15/05, J Bravard <jb24-@yahoo.com> wrote:Gary -

 ?

I'll give my (and many others') opinion on one subject below:

blocking.

?

Blocking is not racing. It is a negative tactic that allows racers to

do well with little regard to thier strengths, but instead due to the

sheer number of people racing with the same clothing. It is a novice

and negative tactic that is best avoided.

?

It is more sporting - and no less beneficial to a team with good

numbers and strong riders?in a race - to race aggressively. Ways to

do this include: attacking often, then attacking more, covering

bridge attempts by others (sometimes working even when there are

teammates up the road); sitting BEHIND those who want to work, and

then attacking to bridge to the break, or attacking once the break is

caught; or using a key point in a race (crosswind section, climb,

etc...) to drive the race as a team to split the field (easier said

than done, of course). The key is to avoid negative tactics in favor

of aggressive tactics...especially in a weekly series race where one

team can make up half the field.

?

John



 At June 15, 2005 9:29:43 AM PDT, Gary Malcolm wrote:



... I need some experienced rider thoughts.



Yesterday was my least fun racing experience. Ever. Including?

races where I flatted.



I was riding the Eugene Twilight 4/5 Crit with ~12 riders, 5 of

which were from one team (Hutch's). Typically, the day started with

immediate attacks as a Hutch's and a Collin's rider popped out on a

slight gap... then a Novarra rider started to bridge and I began to

follow. two laps later I was caught in between the leaders and the

pack, puffing away and feeling tired. Perhaps, I could have

bridged... maybe... but I saw that the group was closer than the

leaders so I sat up in hopes of getting help from the chasers. This,

I admit, was a key error. The group was being man-handled by Hutch's

riders who got themselves lodged in between riders who were willing

to work. Very annoying... whenever you wanted to take a pull you

needed to pass two or three riders to get to the front. As a team

plan it worked magnificently. I, however, am not on that team so I

was boiling over with frustration.



When the break finally lapped us I was so verklempt I just sat up.

I was mad at Hutch's, mad at the other riders... but mostly just mad

at myself for missing the break.



So here are my questions:



1. How over the top heartrate-wise should a rider put themselves in

catching a break? I'm always paranoid of exploding and being

swallowed up.



2. How do you deal with blocking? It seems dangerous to push a

rider off of a wheel (especially at my skill level), but is that

just part of racing? Jamming up the bunch feels really rude, maybe

turn about is fair play on my part?



3. When do you bridge to break? It seems if you bridge immediately

you tend to carry the pack... and if you bridge too late then too

bad for you (or me in this case)!



4. When you get to a break... and just hang on, when does custom

dictate you should work or is it all up to race tactics? Is it OK

for me to bridge and then suck wheel for a few laps?



Any advice or musings would be helpful.



Thanks,



Gary

Jerry Powell

USAC Elite Coach

1926 SW Madison Street

Portland, OR 97205



503 222 7173

503 799 7823



jpow-@spiritone.com



--Apple-Mail-1-989401267

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Content-Type: text/enriched;

charset=ISO-8859-1



Gary, and John... I have great respect for John's words, and for his

racing. He's right that blocking is negative racing... but it is

racing, and it sounds like it was being done fairly well, particularly

for a riders at a 4-5 level. Junking up the pace line in a chase can

be as subtile as just not pulling, or more blatantly... refusing to

pull through/pull off. Done badly (as it often is), it's aggressively

getting in other rider's way, and that's generally dangerous. John's

preference is to ride aggressively and in my opinion, he's right. I'd

point out that "sitting in" not working when others want to could also

be "blocking" in a fairly passive form. You're denying the attacker

the opportunity to have his team-mate on his wheel. It has value in

keeping two team-mates from leapfrogging to get a gap.





I guess I can see that team tactics have a place in a training race,

even though it really does change the race. You benefit from their

tactics by learning how to circumvent them. They can learn how to

execute team tactics appropriately, if they use the opportunity. So

I'd hesitate to be quite as ready to condemn them.





Lastly, as someone often riding as a solo entry in fields with teams

present (although in recent years mostly on the track), I'd advise

that your best defense against getting teamed is being hyper-vigilant,

learn where you have to be (position-wise) to cover any break that has

a chance at getting away so that you don't have to dig too deep

chasing back on the serious break when it happens. Try not to let any

group of same-team riders set up an attack from the back without your

being able to react. Stay in contact with the front (noting this

isn't a hundred rider road race) so that two or three riders can't gap

you back in traffic. Realize that coalitions of unaffiliated riders

can and do occur fairly fluidly in bike races... so figure out who you

can (or would want to) work with if you have the opportunity.





Just my two bits... and good luck next week.





Jerry Powell





On Jun 15, 2005, at 4:22 PM, Gary Malcolm wrote:





<excerpt>I couldn't agree more. Last night's race tactics (junking up

the paceline) just struck me as cheap... and not the way I'd like to

win. But as I was told in no uncertain terms, "that's racing." The

thing that REALLY bewilders me is that this was a CAT 4/5 race.

Nobody's going pro, we're all just racing for kicks, then why would

five guys from Hutch's in a twelve man group give up any chance of

winning? Can there really be glory in scoring points for the team in

such a small field?





I'll try to use the good advice so many have given me today to make

sure the same tactic won't work next week ;0)





Gary





On 6/15/05, <bold><fontfamily><param>Helvetica</param>J

Bravard</fontfamily></bold> =

<<<color><param>0000,0000,EEEE</param>jb24-@yahoo.com</color>>

wrote:Gary -



<excerpt>=A0



I'll give my (and many others') opinion on one subject below: blocking.



=A0



Blocking is not racing. It is a negative tactic that allows racers to

do well with little regard to thier strengths, but instead due to the

sheer number of people racing with the same clothing. It is a novice

and negative tactic that is best avoided.



=A0



It is more sporting - and no less beneficial to a team with good

numbers and strong riders=A0in a race - to race aggressively. Ways to do

this include: attacking often, then attacking more, covering bridge

attempts by others (sometimes working even when there are teammates up

the road); sitting BEHIND those who want to work, and then attacking

to bridge to the break, or attacking once the break is caught; or

using a key point in a race (crosswind section, climb, etc...) to

drive the race as a team to split the field (easier said than done, of

course). The key is to avoid negative tactics in favor of aggressive

tactics...especially in a weekly series race where one team can make

up half the field.



=A0



John





<excerpt>At <fontfamily><param>Helvetica</param>June 15, 2005 9:29:43

AM PDT, Gary Malcolm wrote:</fontfamily>





... I need some experienced rider thoughts.=20





Yesterday was my least fun racing experience. Ever. Including=A0 races

where I flatted.=20





I was riding the Eugene Twilight 4/5 Crit with ~12 riders, 5 of which

were from one team (Hutch's). Typically, the day started with

immediate attacks as a Hutch's and a Collin's rider popped out on a

slight gap... then a Novarra rider started to bridge and I began to

follow. two laps later I was caught in between the leaders and the

pack, puffing away and feeling tired. Perhaps, I could have bridged...

maybe... but I saw that the group was closer than the leaders so I sat

up in hopes of getting help from the chasers. This, I admit, was a key

error. The group was being man-handled by Hutch's riders who got

themselves lodged in between riders who were willing to work. Very

annoying... whenever you wanted to take a pull you needed to pass two

or three riders to get to the front. As a team plan it worked

magnificently. I, however, am not on that team so I was boiling over

with frustration.





When the break finally lapped us I was so verklempt I just sat up. I

was mad at Hutch's, mad at the other riders... but mostly just mad at

myself for missing the break.





So here are my questions:





1. How over the top heartrate-wise should a rider put themselves in

catching a break? I'm always paranoid of exploding and being swallowed

up.





2. How do you deal with blocking? It seems dangerous to push a rider

off of a wheel (especially at my skill level), but is that just part

of racing? Jamming up the bunch feels really rude, maybe turn about is

fair play on my part?





3. When do you bridge to break? It seems if you bridge immediately

you tend to carry the pack... and if you bridge too late then too bad

for you (or me in this case)!





4. When you get to a break... and just hang on, when does custom

dictate you should work or is it all up to race tactics? Is it OK for

me to bridge and then suck wheel for a few laps?





Any advice or musings would be helpful.





Thanks,





Gary



</excerpt></excerpt></excerpt>





<fontfamily><param>Helvetica</param>Jerry Powell



<italic><x-tad-smaller>USAC Elite Coach



</x-tad-smaller></italic>1926 SW Madison Street



Portland, OR 97205





503 222 7173



503 799 7823





jpow-@spiritone.com</fontfamily>





--Apple-Mail-1-989401267--

Brad Cockman, DC

As the saying goes, "train your weaknesses and race your strengths."

Maybe those guys thought they were weak at blocking?



I've seen this happen before and think at a training race if there is

any one dominant team represented that team and the rest of the field

would benefit from breaking into sub-teams. Something like different

colored ribbons on the seat tube could differentiate these sub-teams. It

is training afterall and nobody really benefits from team dominance on

Tuesday night.



B





Gary Malcolm wrote:

 I couldn't agree more. Last night's race tactics (junking up the

paceline)

just struck me as cheap... and not the way I'd like to win. But as I was



told in no uncertain terms, "that's racing." The thing that REALLY

bewilders

me is that this was a CAT 4/5 race. Nobody's going pro, we're all just

racing for kicks, then why would five guys from Hutch's in a twelve man

group give up any chance of winning? Can there really be glory in

scoring

points for the team in such a small field?



I'll try to use the good advice so many have given me today to make sure

the

same tactic won't work next week ;0)



Gary



On 6/15/05, J Bravard <jb24-@yahoo.com> wrote:

 

Gary -

I'll give my (and many others') opinion on one subject below: blocking.

Blocking is not racing. It is a negative tactic that allows racers to do



well with little regard to thier strengths, but instead due to the sheer



number of people racing with the same clothing. It is a novice and

negative

tactic that is best avoided.

It is more sporting - and no less beneficial to a team with good numbers



and strong riders in a race - to race aggressively. Ways to do this

include:

attacking often, then attacking more, covering bridge attempts by others



(sometimes working even when there are teammates up the road); sitting

BEHIND those who want to work, and then attacking to bridge to the

break, or

attacking once the break is caught; or using a key point in a race

(crosswind section, climb, etc...) to drive the race as a team to split

the

field (easier said than done, of course). The key is to avoid negative

tactics in favor of aggressive tactics...especially in a weekly series

race

where one team can make up half the field.

John

Gary Malcolm

------=_Part_4140_7601077.1118877739366

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Content-Disposition: inline



I couldn't agree more. Last night's race tactics (junking up the paceline)=

=20

just struck me as cheap... and not the way I'd like to win. But as I was=20

told in no uncertain terms, "that's racing." The thing that REALLY bewilder=

s=20

me is that this was a CAT 4/5 race. Nobody's going pro, we're all just=20

racing for kicks, then why would five guys from Hutch's in a twelve man=20

group give up any chance of winning? Can there really be glory in scoring=

=20

points for the team in such a small field?



I'll try to use the good advice so many have given me today to make sure th=

e=20

same tactic won't work next week ;0)



Gary



On 6/15/05, J Bravard <jb24-@yahoo.com> wrote:

 =20

Gary -

I'll give my (and many others') opinion on one subject below: blocking.

Blocking is not racing. It is a negative tactic that allows racers to do=

=20

 well with little regard to thier strengths, but instead due to the sheer=

=20

 number of people racing with the same clothing. It is a novice and negati=

ve=20

 tactic that is best avoided.

It is more sporting - and no less beneficial to a team with good numbers=

=20

 and strong riders in a race - to race aggressively. Ways to do this inclu=

de:=20

 attacking often, then attacking more, covering bridge attempts by others=

=20

 (sometimes working even when there are teammates up the road); sitting=20

BEHIND those who want to work, and then attacking to bridge to the break,=

or=20

 attacking once the break is caught; or using a key point in a race=20

(crosswind section, climb, etc...) to drive the race as a team to split t=

he=20

 field (easier said than done, of course). The key is to avoid negative=20

tactics in favor of aggressive tactics...especially in a weekly series ra=

ce=20

 where one team can make up half the field.

John

=20

------=_Part_4140_7601077.1118877739366

Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Content-Disposition: inline



I couldn't agree more. Last night's race tactics (junking up the

paceline) just struck me as cheap... and not the way I'd like to win.

But as I was told in no uncertain terms, "that's racing." The thi=

ng

that REALLY bewilders me is that this was a CAT 4/5 race. Nobody's

going pro, we're all just racing for kicks, then why would five guys

from Hutch's in a twelve man group give up any chance of winning? Can

there really be glory in scoring points for the team in such a small

field?<br>

<br>

I'll try to use the good advice so many have given me today to make sure th=

e same tactic won't work next week ;0)<br>

<br>

Gary<br><br><div><span class=3D"gmail_quote">On 6/15/05, <b class=3D"gmail_=

sendername">J Bravard</b> <<a href=3D"mailto:jb24-@yahoo.com">jb24817@=

yahoo.com</a>> wrote:</span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"b=

order-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; paddin=

g-left: 1ex;">

<div>Gary -</div>

<div> </div>

<div>I'll give my (and many others') opinion on one subject below: blocking=

.</div>

<div> </div>

<div>Blocking is not racing. It is a negative tactic that allows racers

to do well with little regard to thier strengths, but instead due to

the sheer number of people racing with the same clothing. It is a

novice and negative tactic that is best avoided.</div>

<div> </div>

<div>It is more sporting - and no less beneficial to a team with good

numbers and strong riders in a race - to race aggressively. Ways

to do this include: attacking often, then attacking more, covering

bridge attempts by others (sometimes working even when there are

teammates up the road); sitting BEHIND those who want to work, and then

attacking to bridge to the break, or attacking once the break is

caught; or using a key point in a race (crosswind section, climb,

etc...) to drive the race as a team to split the field (easier said

than done, of course). The key is to avoid negative tactics in favor of

aggressive tactics...especially in a weekly series race where one team

can make up half the field.</div>

<div> </div>

<div>John</div><br>

</blockquote></div>



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J Bravard

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Gary -



I'll give my (and many others') opinion on one subject below: blocking.



Blocking is not racing. It is a negative tactic that allows racers to do well with little regard to thier strengths, but instead due to the sheer number of people racing with the same clothing. It is a novice and negative tactic that is best avoided.



It is more sporting - and no less beneficial to a team with good numbers and strong riders in a race - to race aggressively. Ways to do this include: attacking often, then attacking more, covering bridge attempts by others (sometimes working even when there are teammates up the road); sitting BEHIND those who want to work, and then attacking to bridge to the break, or attacking once the break is caught; or using a key point in a race (crosswind section, climb, etc...) to drive the race as a team to split the field (easier said than done, of course). The key is to avoid negative tactics in favor of aggressive tactics...especially in a weekly series race where one team can make up half the field.



John





Gary Malcolm <gary.m-@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi all,



I need some experienced rider thoughts.



Yesterday was my least fun racing experience. Ever. Including races where I flatted.



I was riding the Eugene Twilight 4/5 Crit with ~12 riders, 5 of which were from one team (Hutch's). Typically, the day started with immediate attacks as a Hutch's and a Collin's rider popped out on a slight gap... then a Novarra rider started to bridge and I began to follow. two laps later I was caught in between the leaders and the pack, puffing away and feeling tired. Perhaps, I could have bridged... maybe... but I saw that the group was closer than the leaders so I sat up in hopes of getting help from the chasers. This, I admit, was a key error. The group was being man-handled by Hutch's riders who got themselves lodged in between riders who were willing to work. Very annoying... whenever you wanted to take a pull you needed to pass two or three riders to get to the front. As a team plan it worked magnificently. I, however, am not on that team so I was boiling over with frustration.



When the break finally lapped us I was so verklempt I just sat up. I was mad at Hutch's, mad at the other riders... but mostly just mad at myself for missing the break.



So here are my questions:



1. How over the top heartrate-wise should a rider put themselves in catching a break? I'm always paranoid of exploding and being swallowed up.



2. How do you deal with blocking? It seems dangerous to push a rider off of a wheel (especially at my skill level), but is that just part of racing? Jamming up the bunch feels really rude, maybe turn about is fair play on my part?



3. When do you bridge to break? It seems if you bridge immediately you tend to carry the pack... and if you bridge too late then too bad for you (or me in this case)!



4. When you get to a break... and just hang on, when does custom dictate you should work or is it all up to race tactics? Is it OK for me to bridge and then suck wheel for a few laps?



Any advice or musings would be helpful.



Thanks,



Gary









--

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. . . . . .\<,

. . . . ( )/ ( )

__________________________________________________

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<DIV>Gary -</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>I'll give my (and many others') opinion on one subject below: blocking.</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>Blocking is not racing. It is a negative tactic that allows racers to do well with little regard to thier strengths, but instead due to the sheer number of people racing with the same clothing. It is a novice and negative tactic that is best avoided.</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>It is more sporting - and no less beneficial to a team with good numbers and strong riders in a race - to race aggressively. Ways to do this include: attacking often, then attacking more, covering bridge attempts by others (sometimes working even when there are teammates up the road); sitting BEHIND those who want to work, and then attacking to bridge to the break, or attacking once the break is caught; or using a key point in a race (crosswind section, climb, etc...) to drive the race as a team to split the field (easier said than done, of course). The key is to avoid negative tactics in favor of aggressive tactics...especially in a weekly series race where one team can make up half the field.</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>John</DIV>

<DIV><BR><BR><B><I>Gary Malcolm <gary.m-@gmail.com></I></B> wrote:</DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">Hi all,<BR><BR>I need some experienced rider thoughts. <BR><BR>Yesterday was my least fun racing experience. Ever. Including  races where I flatted. <BR><BR>I was riding the Eugene Twilight 4/5 Crit with ~12 riders, 5 of which were from one team (Hutch's). Typically, the day started with immediate attacks as a Hutch's and a Collin's rider popped out on a slight gap... then a Novarra rider started to bridge and I began to follow. two laps later I was caught in between the leaders and the pack, puffing away and feeling tired. Perhaps, I could have bridged... maybe... but I saw that the group was closer than the leaders so I sat up in hopes of getting help from the chasers. This, I admit, was a key error. The group was being man-handled by Hutch's riders who got themselves lodged in between riders who were willing to work. Very annoying... whenever you wanted to take a pull you

needed to pass two or three riders to get to the front. As a team plan it worked magnificently. I, however, am not on that team so I was boiling over with frustration.<BR><BR>When the break finally lapped us I was so verklempt I just sat up. I was mad at Hutch's, mad at the other riders... but mostly just mad at myself for missing the break.<BR><BR>So here are my questions:<BR><BR>1. How over the top heartrate-wise should a rider put themselves in catching a break? I'm always paranoid of exploding and being swallowed up.<BR><BR>2. How do you deal with blocking? It seems dangerous to push a rider off of a wheel (especially at my skill level), but is that just part of racing? Jamming up the bunch feels really rude, maybe turn about is fair play on my part?<BR><BR>3. When do you bridge to break? It seems if you bridge immediately you tend to carry the pack... and if you bridge too late then too bad for you (or me in this case)!<BR><BR>4. When you get to a break... and just hang on,

when does custom dictate you should work or is it all up to race tactics? Is it OK for me to bridge and then suck wheel for a few laps?<BR><BR>Any advice or musings would be helpful.<BR><BR>Thanks,<BR><BR>Gary<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>-- <BR>. . . . . .__o<BR>. . . . . .\<,<BR>. . . . ( )/ ( ) </BLOCKQUOTE><p>__________________________________________________<br>Do You Yahoo!?<br>Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around <br>http://mail.yahoo.com

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john schmidt

Gary,



1. dont blow up ... you go too hard for too long and you will just

quit going fast... I don't think you will totally blow, but you will of

course have to slow down.   I usually will go almost as fast as I can

for a break so I can close it fast initially over 30 and then try to

settle down to 26 or 27. I can only do this right now for maybe a

minute or two ?   If its longer than that then it might be down to 22 oe

23..   Note if you can't go faster than the breaks going then no sense

going it alone or if its far out there...



2. Too deal with blocking in your case I would have tried to get 2 or

three riders and go to the front and do a "team timetrial" when you

drift back from being in the front simply stay tight, move over when you

get behind your new "teammate". If you move over slow, you will get the

wheel if you really want it but don't do anything stupid, this is not a

contact sport... So if one of the hutchs riders is right there tight on

the wheel yell at the guy in front to move left or right so that you now

have his draft and not the hutchs rider... If you have a nice tight and

fast paceline going its really hard to break into it and mess it up. If

they surge around you and then slow up don't even hestitate, just keep

going keep doing the paceline, just concentrate on your own "new team".

If you have to 2 or or 3 of you should "breakaway" so you get a little

gap and then can work freely..   but in general too block, the blocking

riders have to slow down to some degree... So DO not slow down. Just

keep going around. Do not hesitate behind the blocking riders...





3. For you, with such a large hutchs team you somehow have to stay with

the break. I wouldn't worry about a single guy jumping off unless you

know he is a horse or if its like a lap or two to go or something. If a

seond or third jump after their teammate stay with them! Sometimes you

can join a break with a team and they will still block for the break...



4. YOu don't need to ever do a lick of Work if you don't want to.

Thats racing.   Its ok for you to bridge a gap and suck wheel the rest

of the race if you want and then win the sprint. Its simply being

smart. Now if there is only two or three and there is chance you can

stay away, then maybe you should work. But then again if you are quick

enough you think you can win a pack sprint too, then who cares if you

get caught. But if you are going to work only to get attacked and

dropped later then don't do it. Your main goal is to stay and not get

dropped and win the race.   



Now I did do a race once in Virginia Beach and a guy broke away and I

sat on his wheel more than I pulled and then won the sprint. Well the

next week I did the same thing, and he got really mad at me, "you're

just going to sit in and win the sprint" .. I was thinking Ahh yeah,

that's racing... But since the guy was a Navy Seal and looked like he

could snap me in half (and I am over 6' tall, 200+), it worked , I just

went ahead and let him ride away and rejoined the pack and tried to

organize a chase group. He was sort of new at racing but strong of

course, at that point I didn't think trying to explain that this is

racing, its your job now to figure out how to beat me, what can you do,

how are you going to do it ?



I have to admit in a lot of races if I am not working that hard I will

go ahead and just let the other guy win, especially if the guy is novice

or a junior, but I will still put on the show of sprinting, ie I had

great fun getting the break too work, and it might just not matter that

much to me... But on the other hand, not putting on your best effort,

BOTH mental and physical, both tactical and fitness is disservice to the

other racers, it short changes them, e.g. sure I won the race but if no

one else is trying then it really doesn't mean much. Obviously same

with any sport, if the other team isn't playing then what the hell..?



Sounds like you guys are having fun ! Theres nothing more cool when

great team tactics are being used.



John



Gary Malcolm wrote:

 Hi all,



I need some experienced rider thoughts.



Yesterday was my least fun racing experience. Ever. Including races

where I

flatted.



I was riding the Eugene Twilight 4/5 Crit with ~12 riders, 5 of which

were

from one team (Hutch's). Typically, the day started with immediate

attacks

as a Hutch's and a Collin's rider popped out on a slight gap... then a

Novarra rider started to bridge and I began to follow. two laps later I

was

caught in between the leaders and the pack, puffing away and feeling

tired.

Perhaps, I could have bridged... maybe... but I saw that the group was

closer than the leaders so I sat up in hopes of getting help from the

chasers. This, I admit, was a key error. The group was being man-handled

by

Hutch's riders who got themselves lodged in between riders who were

willing

to work. Very annoying... whenever you wanted to take a pull you needed

to

pass two or three riders to get to the front. As a team plan it worked

magnificently. I, however, am not on that team so I was boiling over

with

frustration.



When the break finally lapped us I was so verklempt I just sat up. I was

mad

at Hutch's, mad at the other riders... but mostly just mad at myself for



missing the break.



So here are my questions:



1. How over the top heartrate-wise should a rider put themselves in

catching

a break? I'm always paranoid of exploding and being swallowed up.



2. How do you deal with blocking? It seems dangerous to push a rider off

of

a wheel (especially at my skill level), but is that just part of racing?



Jamming up the bunch feels really rude, maybe turn about is fair play on

my

part?



3. When do you bridge to break? It seems if you bridge immediately you

tend

to carry the pack... and if you bridge too late then too bad for you (or

me

in this case)!



4. When you get to a break... and just hang on, when does custom dictate

you

should work or is it all up to race tactics? Is it OK for me to bridge

and

then suck wheel for a few laps?



Any advice or musings would be helpful.



Thanks,



Gary









--

. . . . . .__o

. . . . . .\<,

. . . . ( )/ ( )

Gary Malcolm

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Awesome responses!



To sum up:



Bridging: Wait for a real gap, start deep and don't just redline... more

like ultra-violet line ;0)



When blocked: Attack.



In any event... join a team.



Thanks,

Gary



--

. . . . . .__o

. . . . . .\<,

. . . . ( )/ ( )



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Awesome responses!<br>

<br>

 To sum up:<br>

<br>

Bridging: Wait for a real gap, start deep and don't just redline... more like ultra-violet line ;0) <br>

<br>

When blocked: Attack.<br>

<br>

In any event... join a team.<br>

<br>

Thanks,<br>

Gary<br><br>-- <br>. . . . . .__o<br>. . . . . .\<,<br>. . . . ( )/ ( )



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Jeff Fuchs

Check out the ebook - Professional Road Race Tactics for Amateur Cycling

Teams by David Harrison



It is available for purchase at:



http://www.roadbikerider.com/bookstore.htm



As a new racer, I found it to be helpful in learning to read races and

understanding how race dynamics work. It is written for amateur racing

and includes quite a bit of advice on racing without a team. I think it

is much better than Thomas Prehn's book on race tactics that is

published by Velopress.



-Jeff Fuchs

Sunnyside Sports

#830





Gary Malcolm wrote:

 Hi all,



I need some experienced rider thoughts.



Yesterday was my least fun racing experience. Ever. Including races

where I

flatted.



I was riding the Eugene Twilight 4/5 Crit with ~12 riders, 5 of which

were

from one team (Hutch's). Typically, the day started with immediate

attacks

as a Hutch's and a Collin's rider popped out on a slight gap... then a

Novarra rider started to bridge and I began to follow. two laps later I

was

caught in between the leaders and the pack, puffing away and feeling

tired.

Perhaps, I could have bridged... maybe... but I saw that the group was

closer than the leaders so I sat up in hopes of getting help from the

chasers. This, I admit, was a key error. The group was being man-handled

by

Hutch's riders who got themselves lodged in between riders who were

willing

to work. Very annoying... whenever you wanted to take a pull you needed

to

pass two or three riders to get to the front. As a team plan it worked

magnificently. I, however, am not on that team so I was boiling over

with

frustration.



When the break finally lapped us I was so verklempt I just sat up. I was

mad

at Hutch's, mad at the other riders... but mostly just mad at myself for



missing the break.



So here are my questions:



1. How over the top heartrate-wise should a rider put themselves in

catching

a break? I'm always paranoid of exploding and being swallowed up.



2. How do you deal with blocking? It seems dangerous to push a rider off

of

a wheel (especially at my skill level), but is that just part of racing?



Jamming up the bunch feels really rude, maybe turn about is fair play on

my

part?



3. When do you bridge to break? It seems if you bridge immediately you

tend

to carry the pack... and if you bridge too late then too bad for you (or

me

in this case)!



4. When you get to a break... and just hang on, when does custom dictate

you

should work or is it all up to race tactics? Is it OK for me to bridge

and

then suck wheel for a few laps?



Any advice or musings would be helpful.



Thanks,



Gary









--

. . . . . .__o

. . . . . .\<,

. . . . ( )/ ( )

Gary Malcolm

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Hi all,



I need some experienced rider thoughts.



Yesterday was my least fun racing experience. Ever. Including races where I

flatted.



I was riding the Eugene Twilight 4/5 Crit with ~12 riders, 5 of which were

from one team (Hutch's). Typically, the day started with immediate attacks

as a Hutch's and a Collin's rider popped out on a slight gap... then a

Novarra rider started to bridge and I began to follow. two laps later I was

caught in between the leaders and the pack, puffing away and feeling tired.

Perhaps, I could have bridged... maybe... but I saw that the group was

closer than the leaders so I sat up in hopes of getting help from the

chasers. This, I admit, was a key error. The group was being man-handled by

Hutch's riders who got themselves lodged in between riders who were willing

to work. Very annoying... whenever you wanted to take a pull you needed to

pass two or three riders to get to the front. As a team plan it worked

magnificently. I, however, am not on that team so I was boiling over with

frustration.



When the break finally lapped us I was so verklempt I just sat up. I was mad

at Hutch's, mad at the other riders... but mostly just mad at myself for

missing the break.



So here are my questions:



1. How over the top heartrate-wise should a rider put themselves in catching

a break? I'm always paranoid of exploding and being swallowed up.



2. How do you deal with blocking? It seems dangerous to push a rider off of

a wheel (especially at my skill level), but is that just part of racing?

Jamming up the bunch feels really rude, maybe turn about is fair play on my

part?



3. When do you bridge to break? It seems if you bridge immediately you tend

to carry the pack... and if you bridge too late then too bad for you (or me

in this case)!



4. When you get to a break... and just hang on, when does custom dictate you

should work or is it all up to race tactics? Is it OK for me to bridge and

then suck wheel for a few laps?



Any advice or musings would be helpful.



Thanks,



Gary









--

. . . . . .__o

. . . . . .\<,

. . . . ( )/ ( )



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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Content-Disposition: inline



Hi all,<br>

<br>

I need some experienced rider thoughts. <br>

<br>

Yesterday was my least fun racing experience. Ever. Including  races where I flatted. <br>

<br>

I was riding the Eugene Twilight 4/5 Crit with ~12 riders, 5 of which

were from one team (Hutch's). Typically, the day started with immediate

attacks as a Hutch's and a Collin's rider popped out on a slight gap...

then a Novarra rider started to bridge and I began to follow. two laps

later I was caught in between the leaders and the pack, puffing away

and feeling tired. Perhaps, I could have bridged... maybe... but I saw

that the group was closer than the leaders so I sat up in hopes of

getting help from the chasers. This, I admit, was a key error. The

group was being man-handled by Hutch's riders who got themselves lodged

in between riders who were willing to work. Very annoying... whenever

you wanted to take a pull you needed to pass two or three riders to get

to the front. As a team plan it worked magnificently. I, however, am

not on that team so I was boiling over with frustration.<br>

<br>

When the break finally lapped us I was so verklempt I just sat up. I

was mad at Hutch's, mad at the other riders... but mostly just mad at

myself for missing the break.<br>

<br>

So here are my questions:<br>

<br>

1. How over the top heartrate-wise should a rider put themselves in

catching a break? I'm always paranoid of exploding and being swallowed

up.<br>

<br>

2. How do you deal with blocking? It seems dangerous to push a rider

off of a wheel (especially at my skill level), but is that just part of

racing? Jamming up the bunch feels really rude, maybe turn about is

fair play on my part?<br>

<br>

3. When do you bridge to break? It seems if you bridge immediately you

tend to carry the pack... and if you bridge too late then too bad for

you (or me in this case)!<br>

<br>

4. When you get to a break... and just hang on, when does custom

dictate you should work or is it all up to race tactics? Is it OK for

me to bridge and then suck wheel for a few laps?<br>

<br>

Any advice or musings would be helpful.<br>

<br>

Thanks,<br>

<br>

Gary<br>

<br>

<br>

<br><br>-- <br>. . . . . .__o<br>. . . . . .\<,<br>. . . . ( )/ ( )



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