Paul Campbell

I couldn't agree more! I have never heard anyone in the 4-5s anticipate the

prize money they might win.



As a bike commuter, On race days, I must drive myself and bike downtown and

pay $7.50 to 10.00 for parking. That makes some of the PIR races rather

expensive events.=20



Paul C



 From: mmur-@teleport.com

Reply-To: mmur-@teleport.com

Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 15:39:53 -0800

To: "OBRA Remailer" <ob-@topica.com>

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Entry Fees/Prize Lists/Categories

=20

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Get Fit and Healthy!

Couch Potato=92s Workout

A workout made for the sofa and your favorite TV show

http://click.topica.com/aaabvIaVxiDpaVFM6fa/Women_com

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

=20

I think the perceived pressure to have a prize list is one of the worst

aspects of bike racing. Developing a prize list increases entry fees and

drains organizational energy that could instead be directed at making a

better event. There is NO evidence to indicate that bigger prize list lea=

ds

 to bigger participation except possible at the most elite levels.

=20

What we really need to do is to lower the hurdles that need to be jumped =

in

 order to participate in bike racing. One of these is entry fees. We als=

o

 need to put on events that are more interesting to the potential market;

racers, spectators, media and sponsors. Prize list contribute little, if =

at

 all, to this. Redistributing the entry fees as prizes actually makes this

worse.

=20

Mike Murray

=20

-----Original Message-----

From: John Bravard [mailto:jbra-@pacifier.com]

Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2001 13:39 PM

To: OBRA

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Entry Fees/Prize Lists/Categories

=20

=20

OBRA activists! As we have recently discussed categories, racing, etc,

here are my thoughts on entry fees, prize lists, and different racing

categories from a letter I wrote to a colleague last year. The fourth

paragraph covers prizes for categories, and this is the primary discussio=

n

 topic I'd like to see from this. I think prize list "fortification" (2nd

paragraph) is also worth discussing.

<snip>

=20

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Visit Ancestry.com for a FREE 14-Day Trial and enjoy access

to the No. 1 Source for Family History Online. Search over 1

Billion names and trace your family tree today. Click here:

http://click.topica.com/aaabucaVxiDpaVFM6fc/MyFamily

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

=20

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

=20

____________________________________________________________

T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less.

Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose.

http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01

=20

=20

Tom Durkin

When I got into bike racing, BMX actually, there were no

monetary prizes, but BIG trophies. I did a lot of racing

with my son to get those trophies for him. Only when I

started USCF events was there any financial reward, and

those for the higher categories. Again, I did a lot of

racing to get a medal or two, the prizes were fairly meaning

less for me, but the medals were very important.



Tom

----- Original Message -----

From: <mmur-@teleport.com>

To: OBRA Remailer <ob-@topica.com>

Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2001 3:39 PM

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Entry Fees/Prize Lists/Categories





 
============================================================

 Get Fit and Healthy!

Couch Potato's Workout

A workout made for the sofa and your favorite TV show

http://click.topica.com/aaabvIaVxiDpaVF7Hsa/Women_com

============================================================

 

I think the perceived pressure to have a prize list is one

of the worst

 aspects of bike racing. Developing a prize list increases

entry fees and

 drains organizational energy that could instead be

directed at making a

 better event. There is NO evidence to indicate that bigger

prize list leads

 to bigger participation except possible at the most elite

levels.

 

What we really need to do is to lower the hurdles that

need to be jumped in

 order to participate in bike racing. One of these is

entry fees. We also

 need to put on events that are more interesting to the

potential market;

 racers, spectators, media and sponsors. Prize list

contribute little, if at

 all, to this. Redistributing the entry fees as prizes

actually makes this

 worse.



Mike Murray



-----Original Message-----

From: John Bravard [mailto:jbra-@pacifier.com]

Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2001 13:39 PM

To: OBRA

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Entry Fees/Prize Lists/Categories





OBRA activists! As we have recently discussed categories,

racing, etc,

 here are my thoughts on entry fees, prize lists, and

different racing

 categories from a letter I wrote to a colleague last year.

The fourth

 paragraph covers prizes for categories, and this is the

primary discussion

 topic I'd like to see from this. I think prize list

"fortification" (2nd

 paragraph) is also worth discussing.

<snip>

============================================================

 Visit Ancestry.com for a FREE 14-Day Trial and enjoy

access

 to the No. 1 Source for Family History Online. Search over

1

 Billion names and trace your family tree today. Click

here:

 http://click.topica.com/aaabucaVxiDpaVF7Hsc/MyFamily

============================================================

 

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

____________________________________________________________

 T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less.

Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose.

http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01

mmur-@teleport.com

I think the perceived pressure to have a prize list is one of the worst

aspects of bike racing. Developing a prize list increases entry fees and

drains organizational energy that could instead be directed at making a

better event. There is NO evidence to indicate that bigger prize list leads

to bigger participation except possible at the most elite levels.



What we really need to do is to lower the hurdles that need to be jumped in

order to participate in bike racing. One of these is entry fees. We also

need to put on events that are more interesting to the potential market;

racers, spectators, media and sponsors. Prize list contribute little, if at

all, to this. Redistributing the entry fees as prizes actually makes this

worse.



Mike Murray



-----Original Message-----

From: John Bravard [mailto:jbra-@pacifier.com]

Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2001 13:39 PM

To: OBRA

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Entry Fees/Prize Lists/Categories





OBRA activists! As we have recently discussed categories, racing, etc,

here are my thoughts on entry fees, prize lists, and different racing

categories from a letter I wrote to a colleague last year. The fourth

paragraph covers prizes for categories, and this is the primary discussion

topic I'd like to see from this. I think prize list "fortification" (2nd

paragraph) is also worth discussing.

<snip>

John Bravard

OBRA activists! As we have recently discussed categories, racing, etc,

here are my thoughts on entry fees, prize lists, and different racing

categories from a letter I wrote to a colleague last year. The fourth

paragraph covers prizes for categories, and this is the primary discussion

topic I'd like to see from this. I think prize list "fortification" (2nd

paragraph) is also worth discussing.



To qualify or disqualify my opinions, let it be known that I have

organized one race in my years on the bike: The first (used to be) annual

WSU collegiate stage race. Criterium, team time trial, and road

race. Entry fee: $15 total per rider in 1990. (We even made a little

money)



Read on, discuss, reiterate points already made, and roast and threaten me

as you see fit!! Let's hear what race promoters, officials, and racers

think about this.



Keep it real,

JB





---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 13:29:29 -0700 (PDT)

From: John Bravard <jbra-@pacifier.com>

Subject: Re: Pro 1,2 Men at Ecology Center SR - Prize List Philosopy



Jeff,

I'm writing not to roast you for your decision to raise entry fees for the

Ecology Classic, but to give you some thoughts on the subject.



I'm not the biggest fan of increasing entry fees for a group in order to

fortify the prize list. I see this as a tax on the slower riders that

benefits the faster riders. One example of this was the Washington

District Crit last year. The entry fee for the race was $20 except for the

Pro-1-2 field at $25. The prize list for the 1-2's was $750 plus $5 per

rider in the field. With approximately 45 riders in the field, this means

that the last 35 in the field gave $5 a piece to the top 10

riders. Speaking as the poor sap who placed 11th, I'd have rather kept my

$5 and raced for a $750 purse. I can honestly say that I would feel the

same if I had won the race.



I understand you want to publish a large purse in order to attract

riders. We've discussed this in Oregon, and have come to the conclusion

that many other factors determine participation in an event. Banana Belts,

for example, offer much less in the way of prize money, but traditionally

get high participation. And, of course, participation makes the difference

between making and losing money in a race. I think promoters should profit

from races. Without race promoters, we have no races. I have the utmost

respect for a person promoting a quality bike race - they and their club

deserve some reward.



To meander from the subject slightly and direct something to the entire

mailing list, I don't understand why prize money is seen as necessary for

all fields. Generally, the categories where people sacrifice "real

world" financial sources to "make it" as a bike racer are the Men's and

Women's Pro-1-2 categories. As a Masters aged rider, I find it ridiculous

that some old fart would expect to make money from racing - that's what

that job is for. Category 3-4-5 riders should either be doing it for fun

or to upgrade to 1-2, not to sandbag for money. Juniors need low costs,

not high prizes. While many of the 1-2's are merely hobbyists, there are a

number sacrificing that high-paying job and consumptive lifestyle to try

to scrape by as a professional bike racer. For these folks, prize money

can make the difference between paying bills and running up the credit

card.



Finally, one correction to your letter is that I know of no category 1-2

riders who don't pay entry fees. I know some teams pay entries for a few

races, but my feeling is that most 1-2's pay out of pocket for racing.



Hope to see you Memorial Day weekend.



Sincerely,

John Bravard