Please Stop! I have NO more horses to give. You have beat them all.
Glen
----- Original Message -----
From: "Schreck, George" <george.-@pacificorp.com>
To: "Matt Ottinger" <mattot-@ckarch.com>; "Long, Steve"
<Steve-@clark.wa.gov>; <ob-@topica.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 9:43 AM
Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Cat. 1 riders in the Portland Twilight Criterium
Masters race.
We are trying to. That is the point.
-----Original Message-----
From: Matt Ottinger [mailto:mattot-@ckarch.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 9:41 AM
To: Schreck, George; Long, Steve; ob-@topica.com
Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Cat. 1 riders in the Portland Twilight
Criterium Masters race.
Omg! Will you all just shut up and race!
-----Original Message-----
From: Schreck, George [mailto:george.-@pacificorp.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 9:41 AM
To: Long, Steve; ob-@topica.com
Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Cat. 1 riders in the Portland Twilight
Criterium Masters race.
While I also respect Mr. Long (even though he spelled my name
incorrectly), I think we have two completely different view on racing.
Some think everyone should be allowed to participate and make the race
as hard as possible (an perhaps limit the number of potential winners),
and other think that races should be structured to give everyone a
chance to win. I doubt any more discussion will bridge the gap, so I am
not going to participate further in the discussion. As a result, given
the lack of consensus, I suppose we should leave it up to the promoters
and not complain either way they choose to structure the fields.
As for Steve and Mark riding off the front. Good for them. They
deserved to win, and it means I need to train harder and improve my
skills,. If they still drop me, hopefully, the training allows me to
get 3rd.
-----Original Message-----
From: Long, Steve [mailto:Steve-@clark.wa.gov]
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 9:16 AM
To: Schreck, George; ob-@topica.com
Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Cat. 1 riders in the Portland Twilight
Criterium Masters race.
While I respect Mr. Shreck, I just don't get his logic here. Cat 1
riders are not my peers. They never have been and I don't have the time
to put in on the bike to make them my peer. That's like saying that an
11th grader is the peer of a 10th grader. Even the teachers at such a
high school would scoff at such folly.
Here's the definition of the word peer as defined by Random House
Webster's dictionary:
peer [1] (peer) n.
1. a person who is the equal of another in
abilities, qualifications, age,
background, or social status.
And, by racing against the 2's, a cat 3 is racing against better riders,
a category above their peers. We don't have the resources and the
organizers don't have the time to break the categories down a lot
further so we live with such category races.
Nonetheless, I vehemently disagree with you on this George and thus far,
you have not offered up sufficient logic or reasoning to sway my option
no matter how much I respect you as a rider. It's not you I'm trying to
restrict and you beat me up Larch in July by 9 minutes. Sure, if I had
not had a couple of accidents in the last year, one very serious, you
probably would not have beaten me by as much but I'm beating you still
would have beat me.
Take a look at the Vancouver Courthouse crit where Holland and King
where off the front for the entire race and the field could not catch
them. Sure, there was some blocking going on but there was not enough of
his team mates in the race to keep the field from catching him if they
could have actually caught him. I argue that this is not much of a race.
I also argue that the best races are those in which the competition is
the tightest, where the finish is the most hotly contested.
Myself, as an organizer, will do my best to provide racing where as many
people as possible stand a chance at getting some of the prizes offered.
And, unless you are doing some organizing of your own, perhaps you could
just come and try and grab some of those prizes for your very own
instead of beating up those that spend a great deal of time and energy
organizing events for us all to come and race at.
-----Original Message-----
From: Schreck, George [mailto:George.-@PacifiCorp.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 8:41 AM
To: Long, Steve; ob-@topica.com
Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Cat. 1 riders in the Portland Twilight
Criterium Masters race.
No, you did not win the race against your peers, because you excluded
the better riders within your peer group. It is athletic competition,
and accept the fact that there are always going to be people better than
you, and find goals other than winning the race. Why are some OBRA
members so afraid of racing against better riders, and why does everyone
think that in order to race, they should have a chance to win or place.
If that is your motivation for racing, you are going to be very
disappointed. There can be many races within a race other than for
first.
I suppose if we take this further, is it no unfair for people who have
responsibilities and cannot train much to have to race against people
who train 15 to 20 hours per week. Also, is it not unfair for someone
who weighs 180 pounds to have to race against someone who weighs 155
pounds in a hilly race. What about people who have coaches and those
who do not, or those who have better equipment such at TT bikes with
disc wheels and those who do not. We could create innumerable
categories. The fact is that it is many of these other factors that
have as much to do with your competitiveness as your Category in a
Masters race.
-----Original Message-----
From: Long, Steve [mailto:Steve-@clark.wa.gov]
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 8:23 AM
To: ob-@topica.com
Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Cat. 1 riders in the Portland Twilight
Criterium Masters race.
Yea, here's what it means:
1. If I race in a 1/2/3 race and I'm a 3 and win, perhaps I'm not really
a 3...
2. If I race in a 2/3 race and I'm a 3 and win, I beg to differ that it
doesn't mean anything. It means that I won in a race against my peers.
Who could expect to win in a race with two categories above them.
Please, that's ridiculous.
I happen to think that it's awesome to get the occasional 2/3 master's
race. It doesn't happen that often so I say hip, hip, hooray to the
organizers of that event. And, I'll bet I'm not the only one that thinks
that way.
The 1's already have a race. Why do they need two? Plus, they have
better than three times the prize money as the Master's race.
-----Original Message-----
From: J.Michael Manning [mailto:Cycle-@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 9:27 PM
To: ob-@topica.com
Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Cat. 1 riders in the Portland Twilight
Criterium Masters race.
I have tried to refrain from responding...but I have to second Mark's
opinion ( about George's opinion ). I race to win, and the real
challenge and reward is winning against the best. Otherwise, who cares!
mark duff wrote:
Amen George!!! I agree 10000%
From: "Schreck, George" <george.-@pacificorp.com>
Reply-To: george.-@pacificorp.com
To: Steve-@clark.wa.gov, Obra <ob-@topica.com>,
obra-@topica.com, nwcyc-@topica.com
Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Cat. 1 riders in the Portland Twilight
Criterium Masters race.
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 11:28:59 -0700
I never understand the whining about this issue. If someone is
qualified to be a Masters racer based on age, that should be
sufficient.
Essentially, the whining is that these people are too good and we
should not have to compete against people who are two good. Everyone
should be mediocre so we can be competitive.
I think it is ridiculous. It is a race, and may the best man or
woman win. Frankly, I see having a good result when the best riders
are not allowed to participate to be a lesser accomplishment, and in
my mind the result deserves and asterisk.
-----Original Message-----
From: Long, Steve [mailto:Steve-@clark.wa.gov]
Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 9:56 AM
To: Obra; obra-@topica.com; nwcyc-@topica.com
Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Cat. 1 riders in the Portland Twilight
Criterium Masters race.
Hip, hip hooray to that. Let those 1's race their cat status.
-----Original Message-----
From: markjgi-@yahoo.com [mailto:markjgi-@yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 9:54 AM
To: Obra; obra-@topica.com; nwcyc-@topica.com
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Cat. 1 riders in the Portland Twilight Criterium
Masters race.
Don't worry Brad, we all love you. The rules say the promoter can
define the "Masters" category, and having defined it, it then changed
which upset some folks.
Personally, I think If someone is stil holding onto their Cat 1, they
should be racing in the top race, regardless of age. If their Ego
requires them to keep their Cat 1, they aught to be held to what that
means.
I think everyone should thank Brad for listening to their concerns
and being responsive to them.
Mark Ginsberg
--- "Cheryl J. Willson" <cjwil-@mindspring.com>
wrote:
--- Forwarding for Brad --- Please don't reply to me
---
I guess it's possible that I'm not quite as smart as my mother
always said I was. It was a huge mistake for me to make a change
to the race
at such a late date. My motivation for making this change was
simply to make the race consistent with other masters races around
the region
where 1s are eligible to race. There are several 45+ riders who
still
have 1 on there license and I wanted them to be able to race. I
didn't know how much of a fuss it would create and now I'm
changing it
back. I have changed the website already.
Sorry for the controversy. Don't hate me, it's all just for fun
anyway.
Brad Ross
Race Director
Health Net Portland Twilight Criterium brad-@prodigy.net
Begin forwarded message:
From: "Brad Ross" <brad-@prodigy.net>
Date: August 9, 2005 9:11:11 AM PDT
To: "'Cheryl J. Willson'"
<cjwil-@mindspring.com>
Cheryl,
Thanks for the help. Can you post this to OBRA?
Thanks
Brad Ross
Race Director
Cascade Cycling Classic
Portland Twilight Criterium
Cross Crusade Cyclocross Series
mobile 503.806.6943
Mark J. Ginsberg
Attorney At Law
621 SW Morrison St., Ste. 900
Portland, OR 97204
(503) 542-3000
Fax (503) 227-2530
markjgi-@yahoo.com
www.bikesafetylaw.com
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