BTA unveils 5-part safety plan

Mbig-@aol.com

2005-08-09

I agree, kudos to the BTA.



First, I think driver education is way overdue, especially for those people

with bike racks on their cars who should know better! (White VW golf on 49th

and Stark 8/7 @ 7:15am)

Yes, this is the site of one of the fatalities.



Secondly, Who monitors those Tri-met bus drivers who speed up often to cutoff

cyclist using the bike paths painted on the roads?



Thirdly, How about education for our "To Protect and Serve" police officers

that speed down the middle of Clinton Street for one, to get around the cyclist

that are using a bike friendly route.



Lastly, as a year round commuter, almost every morning I get the opportunity

to come to a complete stop at a traffic light on Broadway on my way into

downtown and have other cyclist with all the cool gear & helmets, stop and then

ride threw the red light like they have a special pass.



Thanks for taking the time to read.



"Obeying the rules of the road goes along way, Disobeying the rules of the

road seems to go farther"

Which example would you portray?



Michael



Schreck, George

2005-08-09



Actually, regarding your comment concerning criminal responsibility,

motorists are arrested and prosecuted for killing cyclist and

pedestrians. The city prosecutors office has been fairly diligent on

that score.



Nevertheless, accidents do occur from time to time, and we need to

examine the degree to which we benefit by destroying someone's life

because they made a mistake. Motorists kill other motorists, and

accidents occur in the workplace that kill people. Often there was no

intent, and someone made a regrettable mistake not involving illegal

conduct or reckless conduct. Does it serve any purpose to put them in

jail for ten years and ruining their life as well (forgetting that the

knowledge that they are responsible for a death may have a great impact

as well)?



If you view jail time being for the purpose of deterring crime, and if

someone made a mistake (assuming no illegal or reckless conduct was

involved), there most likely is no deterrent value. If you view jail

time for punishment and less for deterrence, then it is more in the

nature of revenge, and do we want revenge on someone who made an

innocent mistake (again assuming no recklessness or illegal conduct)? I

realize that we may be outraged by an injury to a cyclist, but we need

to weigh culpability in determining punishment. People do make

mistakes, and sometimes the results are horrible. Nevertheless, severe

punishment is not necessarily always the answer.   



-----Original Message-----

From: Susan Otcenas [mailto:sus-@teamestrogen.com]

Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 11:44 AM

To: news4-@gmail.com; shi-@lists.riseup.net; ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] BTA unveils 5-part safety plan



Joel,



This is not a flame. Just a few counterpoints to some of your ideas.



  Were they wearing helmets?



Irrelevant. Why? Because whether or not they were wearing helmets

would

not have changed the fact that they were HIT. Too many motorists are

driving too fast and too recklessly, with too little regard for the

rules of

the road and the cyclists/pedestrians they are thus endangering.

(Besides,

If I am struck at 45 miles an hour, whether or not I am wearing a helmet

will likely be irrelevant. I'm a zealot about wearing my own helmet;

it's

just not relevant to a discussion of preventing collisions in the first

place.)



  Every day I see officers drive by people on bikes riding the wrong way

down sidewalks I have yet to see one stop.



There is no "wrong way" on a sidewalk. Sidewalks are two-way pedestrian

traffic. And except in parts of downtown portland, and certain other

downtown areas in other parts of Oregon, riding one's bike on the

sidewalk

is perfectly legal. There are rules which must be followed,

specifically

rules regarding the speed one may ride when crossing a curb-cut and

passing

pedestrians. <Mr. Ginsberg can cite the ORS> But's it's still legal.

Would

you outlaw the ability of a 5-year old child to ride on a sidewalk?

Let's

not forget that some people ride on the sidewalk because they are too

afraid

to venture out onto the street.



Now, I'd love to see some education about riding against traffic in a

bike

lane. That happens too often, and it's dangerous. Typically kids on

BMX

bikes, not wearing helmets...



IMHO, what I'd like to see the BTA advocate for is more PENALTIES for

motorists who hit cyclists and pedestrians. Think about our terminology

for

a moment. We call them "accidents". Most of these incidents are not

accidents. They are COLLISIONS due to speeding, intoxication,

inattentiveness, cell-phone usage, etc. Motorists need to be held

accountable for their actions.



From the dictionary:



Main Entry: man.slaugh.ter

Pronunciation: 'man-"slo-t&r

Function: noun

: the unlawful killing of a human being without express or implied

malice.



Main Entry: involuntary manslaughter

Function: noun

: manslaughter resulting from the failure to perform a legal duty

expressly

required to safeguard human life, from the commission of an unlawful act

not

constituting a felony, or from the COMMISSION OF A LAWFUL ACT IN A

NEGLIGENT

OR IMPROPER MANNER (emphasis added).



Everytime I get on my bike, there's something in the back of my mind

that

reminds me that if I get killed by a car, the chances that the

perpetrator

will be prosecuted are almost nil. That drives me nuts.



Susan



--------------------------------------------

Susan Otcenas                  

TEAM ESTROGEN, INC. __~o

2038 NW Aloclek Dr., Suite 220     -\_<,

Hillsboro, OR 97124    (*)/'(*)



http://www.TeamEstrogen.com

1-877-310-4592                

--------------------------------------------

Cycling Apparel and Accessories for Women

--------------------------------------------



-----Original Message-----

From: Joel Morrissette [mailto:news4-@gmail.com]

Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 10:37 AM

To: shi-@lists.riseup.net; ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] BTA unveils 5-part safety plan





I think this is a good start. I particularly like that funding for

bike-related improvements and driver education are on the list. The

fair-share law is long overdue. Kudos to BTA for going after this one.

That said, I'd like to know a little more about the accidents that

occured

this year before assessing it too much..



Specifically, were the cyclists obeying the rules of the road? Were

they

wearing helmets? For those of us who ride and race regularly, I these 2

points are habit. From what I can recall, I don't believe any of the 5

riders killed on the road this year were wearing helmets. I may be

wrong.

We need to work on this. Driver culpability was well addressed in the

5-point plan - that's why I'm addressing cyclists only here.



First, I'd like to see a major push in the community for cyclist

education

about the rules of the road and our rights as riders. The plan mentions

making this part of driver's ed. I'd argue that many of the riders in

my

neighborhood (and around Portland) are riding bikes either because they

don't have a license, or because they lost it (DUI). In the first case,

they're not going to get the information.

We need to find a way of getting it to them. For the remainder, we need

to

find a non-confrontational way of getting the rider safety message out.



I'd like to see the police have the ability to ticket people riding

improperly (on sidewalks, against traffic, etc). Every day I see

officers

drive by poeple on bikes riding the wrong way down sidewalks I have yet

to

see one stop. This leads me to believe they either don't care or don't

have

the means for enforcement. If the law does not provide that ability or

is

vague about where/how to ride, some clarification may be in order.

Bikes

are a vehicle - let's start treating them as such legally. On the

flipside,

we have to be careful not to make life difficult for people riding - we

want

to remain a bike-friendly community, and having law enforcement appear

hostile to riders won't help there.



Second, we need to approach the issue of helmets. I know Oregon has a

long

and heated past with helmets and motorcycles, and I don't want to stir

up

the hornet's nest here. Oh...why not.



This entire summer I can count on one hand the number of riders I've

seen

wearing helmets. And I see hundreds of bikes go by my house every week.

I

don't buy the "I'm and adult, it's my choice, it's my life" argument.

When

you get hit by a car and end up in the hospital with a head injury and

no

health insurance, it becomes my problem.

Should we look into a helmet law for all riders? I think so. Would it

pass? I doubt it. Doesn't hurt to try.



Thanks for the read. (Dons flame-retardant gear).

-Joel







On 8/9/05, Jonathan Maus <jona-@bikeportland.org> wrote:

 

Greetings bike community,

   

The BTA is stepping up to the plate for us. They have issued a

statement that outlines their response to the recent bicycle

fatalities. You can read a summary of their "5 part plan" and the

full press release here -

   

http://bikeportland.org/2005/08/08/bta-responds-to-cyclist-deaths/

   

Please feel free to leave your comments below the post...it would be

great to have a constructive and open dialogue that people not on

these lists can read. Thanks.

   

--Jonathan

--------------------------

Jonathan Maus

BikePortland.org: To inform and inspire. http://bikeportland.org

(503) 283-8855

cell (503) 706-8804

Subscribe via email! -

http://bikeportland.org/subscribe.php



   

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com









------------------------------------------------------------------------------



This email is confidential and may be legally privileged.



It is intended solely for the addressee. Access to this email by anyone else, unless expressly approved by the sender or an authorized addressee, is unauthorized.



If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or any action omitted or taken in reliance on it, is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you believe that you have received this email in error, please contact the sender, delete this e-mail and destroy all copies.



==============================================================================



Joel Morrissette

2005-08-09



 Irrelevant. Why? Because whether or not they were wearing helmets would

not have changed the fact that they were HIT. Too many motorists are

<snip>



Good points. With respect to preventing collisions, you're right. I

guess I was taking the "accidents happen regardless, protect yourself"

track, which may or may not include a motorist. It was more of a

general safety/responsiblity issue.



 There is no "wrong way" on a sidewalk. Sidewalks are two-way pedestrian

traffic. And except in parts of downtown portland, and certain other

downtown areas in other parts of Oregon, riding one's bike on the sidewalk

is perfectly legal. There are rules which must be followed, specifically

rules regarding the speed one may ride when crossing a curb-cut and passing

pedestrians. <Mr. Ginsberg can cite the ORS> But's it's still legal. Would

you outlaw the ability of a 5-year old child to ride on a sidewalk? Let's

not forget that some people ride on the sidewalk because they are too afraid

to venture out onto the street.



Right on all counts. What needs to be addressed is the difference in

behavior in the street versus on the sidewalk. Street = vehicle,

sidewalk=pedestrian. I'd like to see some enforcement that holds

people to this. Given the number of BMXers that I've almost cleaned

out/almost cleaned me out, there's room for improvement here.



 Everytime I get on my bike, there's something in the back of my mind that

reminds me that if I get killed by a car, the chances that the perpetrator

will be prosecuted are almost nil. That drives me nuts.



You and me both.



-Joel



Schreck, George

2005-08-09



I think we need to be diligent about getting license numbers when we

can, and pursuing a complaint with the police. Sometimes that is the

only way to get someone's attention when they clearly do not care about

your rights or in fact endanger you. If we are more aggressive in that

regard, I think it will help.



-----Original Message-----

From: Mark Jenkins [mailto:mark.so-@gmail.com]

Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 12:54 PM

To: Schreck, George

Cc: news4-@gmail.com; shi-@lists.riseup.net; ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] BTA unveils 5-part safety plan



I agree for the most part. Of course, riders who treat their bikes

like vehicles and not like toys, who respect right of way, who use

common-sense principles of self-preservation are the kinds of cyclists

that promote the activity as a legitimate transportation alternative.

If more cyclists did that, then perhaps drivers would slowly gain

respect for the idea that bikes are vehicles, that they should be

figured in rights of way understanding, whatever.



I still haven't heard a way to address the more back-brain elements of

the problem, though -- drivers and passengers are frequently overtly

aggressive in ways that seem to have more to do with the vulnerability

of cyclists rather than the quality of their riding. That's a serious

problem and it gets at notions of resentment and anger that aren't

going to solved by sharrows, signage and education.



Why did the 11 year old kid throw fireworks at me from the front seat

of his car the other day? Why did his 40-ish Laurelhurst-looking

parent not intervene, even when she clearly knew what was happening?

Why did he then proceed to the next cyclist up the road and do the

same thing, again, with no intervention? What about the people in the

Mercedes SUV in civilized Lake Oswego who came up as close as they

could behind me and cut loose with an air horn? Was that because some

cyclist ran a stop sign in front of them sometime in the past? I don't

think so. I think they were hunting, actually, for a cyclist to try

that on. Coming down Cornell Sunday, I was going 35mph, probably the

legal speed limit or better -- why did the driver behind me feel it

was necessary to make a big show of swinging out, passing me, and

cutting back in front of me -- in the tunnel!



It's not because I was inhibiting traffic flow, violating right of way

or making aggressive gestures. It was because I was vulnerable and

they were daring me to react.



I commute a significant distance -- well over a hundred miles per week

-- year round. Experientially it seems to clear to me that aggression

toward cyclists increases the more cyclists are on the road, and

cyclists of varying abilities. That is to say, it's worse in the

summer. I think that it's less that inexperienced cyclists violate

drivers' sense of order and law; I would suggest that they provide

easy targets for redirected anger and resentment of all kinds.



So how do you deal with that? There's a true problem there and when I

think of what makes cycling dangerous, I think of that first.



And that being said, BTA is doing great policy work, and I applaud

their efforts.



Mark Jenkins









On 8/9/05, Schreck, George <george.-@pacificorp.com> wrote:

 I agree. We cannot expect drivers to be responsible if we do not take

responsibility for our conduct as well. When I am commuting on my

bicycle, I often see cyclists riding the wrong way at night without

lights and helmets, wearing all black clothing. In a few cases I have

nearly had head on collisions with them in my bicycle. To expect a

car

 to see you in not reasonable. In addition, I often see cyclists

running

 red lights and stop signs. It reinforces in drivers minds that we are

not responsible and should not be on the roads. If we want to be

treated a vehicles with rights, we need to behave as such.





I am not suggesting that any of these were reasons why these

fatalities

 occurred. In fact, I suspect they were not. Nevertheless, every time

drivers see one of us behaving irresponsibly, it works against our

efforts to be treated properly, and suggests to drivers that in

accidents, the cyclist probably was at fault.



I would agree that in addition to BTA's five points, we need a sixth

regarding training for cyclists.



-----Original Message-----

From: Joel Morrissette [mailto:news4-@gmail.com]

Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 10:40 AM

To: shi-@lists.riseup.net; ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] BTA unveils 5-part safety plan



Sorry....misread your mail. I see you meant to add comments on the

*blog* post and not this one.



-Joel



On 8/9/05, Joel Morrissette <news4-@gmail.com> wrote:

 I think this is a good start. I particularly like that funding for

bike-related improvements and driver education are on the list. The

fair-share law is long overdue. Kudos to BTA for going after this

one. That said, I'd like to know a little more about the accidents

that occured this year before assessing it too much..



Specifically, were the cyclists obeying the rules of the road? Were

they wearing helmets? For those of us who ride and race regularly,

I

  these 2 points are habit. From what I can recall, I don't believe

any

  of the 5 riders killed on the road this year were wearing helmets.

I

  may be wrong. We need to work on this. Driver culpability was well

addressed in the 5-point plan - that's why I'm addressing cyclists

only here.



First, I'd like to see a major push in the community for cyclist

education about the rules of the road and our rights as riders. The

plan mentions making this part of driver's ed. I'd argue that many

of

  the riders in my neighborhood (and around Portland) are riding bikes

either because they don't have a license, or because they lost it

(DUI). In the first case, they're not going to get the information.

We need to find a way of getting it to them. For the remainder, we

need to find a non-confrontational way of getting the rider safety

message out.



I'd like to see the police have the ability to ticket people riding

improperly (on sidewalks, against traffic, etc). Every day I see

officers drive by poeple on bikes riding the wrong way down

sidewalks

  I have yet to see one stop. This leads me to believe they either

don't care or don't have the means for enforcement. If the law does

not provide that ability or is vague about where/how to ride, some

clarification may be in order. Bikes are a vehicle - let's start

treating them as such legally. On the flipside, we have to be

careful

  not to make life difficult for people riding - we want to remain a

bike-friendly community, and having law enforcement appear hostile

to

  riders won't help there.



Second, we need to approach the issue of helmets. I know Oregon has

a

  long and heated past with helmets and motorcycles, and I don't want

to

  stir up the hornet's nest here. Oh...why not.



This entire summer I can count on one hand the number of riders I've

seen wearing helmets. And I see hundreds of bikes go by my house

every week. I don't buy the "I'm and adult, it's my choice, it's my

life" argument. When you get hit by a car and end up in the

hospital

  with a head injury and no health insurance, it becomes my problem.

Should we look into a helmet law for all riders? I think so. Would

it pass? I doubt it. Doesn't hurt to try.



Thanks for the read. (Dons flame-retardant gear).

-Joel







On 8/9/05, Jonathan Maus <jona-@bikeportland.org> wrote:

 

Greetings bike community,



The BTA is stepping up to the plate for us. They have issued a

statement

  that outlines their response to the recent bicycle fatalities.

You

 can read

  a summary of their "5 part plan" and the full press release here -



http://bikeportland.org/2005/08/08/bta-responds-to-cyclist-deaths/



Please feel free to leave your comments below the post...it would

be

 great

  to have a constructive and open dialogue that people not on these

lists can

  read. Thanks.



--Jonathan

--------------------------

Jonathan Maus

BikePortland.org: To inform and inspire.

http://bikeportland.org

(503) 283-8855

cell (503) 706-8804

Subscribe via email! -

http://bikeportland.org/subscribe.php





To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

------------------------------------------------------------------------

------

 

This email is confidential and may be legally privileged.



It is intended solely for the addressee. Access to this email by

anyone else, unless expressly approved by the sender or an authorized

addressee, is unauthorized.

 

If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying,

distribution or any action omitted or taken in reliance on it, is

prohibited and may be unlawful. If you believe that you have received

this email in error, please contact the sender, delete this e-mail and

destroy all copies.

 
========================================================================

======

 

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com





------------------------------------------------------------------------------



This email is confidential and may be legally privileged.



It is intended solely for the addressee. Access to this email by anyone else, unless expressly approved by the sender or an authorized addressee, is unauthorized.



If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or any action omitted or taken in reliance on it, is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you believe that you have received this email in error, please contact the sender, delete this e-mail and destroy all copies.



==============================================================================



Mark Jenkins

2005-08-09



I agree for the most part. Of course, riders who treat their bikes

like vehicles and not like toys, who respect right of way, who use

common-sense principles of self-preservation are the kinds of cyclists

that promote the activity as a legitimate transportation alternative.

If more cyclists did that, then perhaps drivers would slowly gain

respect for the idea that bikes are vehicles, that they should be

figured in rights of way understanding, whatever.



I still haven't heard a way to address the more back-brain elements of

the problem, though -- drivers and passengers are frequently overtly

aggressive in ways that seem to have more to do with the vulnerability

of cyclists rather than the quality of their riding. That's a serious

problem and it gets at notions of resentment and anger that aren't

going to solved by sharrows, signage and education.



Why did the 11 year old kid throw fireworks at me from the front seat

of his car the other day? Why did his 40-ish Laurelhurst-looking

parent not intervene, even when she clearly knew what was happening?

Why did he then proceed to the next cyclist up the road and do the

same thing, again, with no intervention? What about the people in the

Mercedes SUV in civilized Lake Oswego who came up as close as they

could behind me and cut loose with an air horn? Was that because some

cyclist ran a stop sign in front of them sometime in the past? I don't

think so. I think they were hunting, actually, for a cyclist to try

that on. Coming down Cornell Sunday, I was going 35mph, probably the

legal speed limit or better -- why did the driver behind me feel it

was necessary to make a big show of swinging out, passing me, and

cutting back in front of me -- in the tunnel!



It's not because I was inhibiting traffic flow, violating right of way

or making aggressive gestures. It was because I was vulnerable and

they were daring me to react.



I commute a significant distance -- well over a hundred miles per week

-- year round. Experientially it seems to clear to me that aggression

toward cyclists increases the more cyclists are on the road, and

cyclists of varying abilities. That is to say, it's worse in the

summer. I think that it's less that inexperienced cyclists violate

drivers' sense of order and law; I would suggest that they provide

easy targets for redirected anger and resentment of all kinds.



So how do you deal with that? There's a true problem there and when I

think of what makes cycling dangerous, I think of that first.



And that being said, BTA is doing great policy work, and I applaud

their efforts.



Mark Jenkins









On 8/9/05, Schreck, George <george.-@pacificorp.com> wrote:

 I agree. We cannot expect drivers to be responsible if we do not take

responsibility for our conduct as well. When I am commuting on my

bicycle, I often see cyclists riding the wrong way at night without

lights and helmets, wearing all black clothing. In a few cases I have

nearly had head on collisions with them in my bicycle. To expect a car

to see you in not reasonable. In addition, I often see cyclists running

red lights and stop signs. It reinforces in drivers minds that we are

not responsible and should not be on the roads. If we want to be

treated a vehicles with rights, we need to behave as such.





I am not suggesting that any of these were reasons why these fatalities

occurred. In fact, I suspect they were not. Nevertheless, every time

drivers see one of us behaving irresponsibly, it works against our

efforts to be treated properly, and suggests to drivers that in

accidents, the cyclist probably was at fault.



I would agree that in addition to BTA's five points, we need a sixth

regarding training for cyclists.



-----Original Message-----

From: Joel Morrissette [mailto:news4-@gmail.com]

Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 10:40 AM

To: shi-@lists.riseup.net; ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] BTA unveils 5-part safety plan



Sorry....misread your mail. I see you meant to add comments on the

*blog* post and not this one.



-Joel



On 8/9/05, Joel Morrissette <news4-@gmail.com> wrote:

 I think this is a good start. I particularly like that funding for

bike-related improvements and driver education are on the list. The

fair-share law is long overdue. Kudos to BTA for going after this

one. That said, I'd like to know a little more about the accidents

that occured this year before assessing it too much..



Specifically, were the cyclists obeying the rules of the road? Were

they wearing helmets? For those of us who ride and race regularly, I

these 2 points are habit. From what I can recall, I don't believe any

of the 5 riders killed on the road this year were wearing helmets. I

may be wrong. We need to work on this. Driver culpability was well

addressed in the 5-point plan - that's why I'm addressing cyclists

only here.



First, I'd like to see a major push in the community for cyclist

education about the rules of the road and our rights as riders. The

plan mentions making this part of driver's ed. I'd argue that many of

the riders in my neighborhood (and around Portland) are riding bikes

either because they don't have a license, or because they lost it

(DUI). In the first case, they're not going to get the information.

We need to find a way of getting it to them. For the remainder, we

need to find a non-confrontational way of getting the rider safety

message out.



I'd like to see the police have the ability to ticket people riding

improperly (on sidewalks, against traffic, etc). Every day I see

officers drive by poeple on bikes riding the wrong way down sidewalks

I have yet to see one stop. This leads me to believe they either

don't care or don't have the means for enforcement. If the law does

not provide that ability or is vague about where/how to ride, some

clarification may be in order. Bikes are a vehicle - let's start

treating them as such legally. On the flipside, we have to be careful

not to make life difficult for people riding - we want to remain a

bike-friendly community, and having law enforcement appear hostile to

riders won't help there.



Second, we need to approach the issue of helmets. I know Oregon has a

long and heated past with helmets and motorcycles, and I don't want to

stir up the hornet's nest here. Oh...why not.



This entire summer I can count on one hand the number of riders I've

seen wearing helmets. And I see hundreds of bikes go by my house

every week. I don't buy the "I'm and adult, it's my choice, it's my

life" argument. When you get hit by a car and end up in the hospital

with a head injury and no health insurance, it becomes my problem.

Should we look into a helmet law for all riders? I think so. Would

it pass? I doubt it. Doesn't hurt to try.



Thanks for the read. (Dons flame-retardant gear).

-Joel







On 8/9/05, Jonathan Maus <jona-@bikeportland.org> wrote:

 

Greetings bike community,



The BTA is stepping up to the plate for us. They have issued a

statement

  that outlines their response to the recent bicycle fatalities. You

can read

  a summary of their "5 part plan" and the full press release here -



http://bikeportland.org/2005/08/08/bta-responds-to-cyclist-deaths/



Please feel free to leave your comments below the post...it would be

great

  to have a constructive and open dialogue that people not on these

lists can

  read. Thanks.



--Jonathan

--------------------------

Jonathan Maus

BikePortland.org: To inform and inspire.

http://bikeportland.org

(503) 283-8855

cell (503) 706-8804

Subscribe via email! -

http://bikeportland.org/subscribe.php





To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com





------------------------------------------------------------------------------



This email is confidential and may be legally privileged.



It is intended solely for the addressee. Access to this email by anyone else, unless expressly approved by the sender or an authorized addressee, is unauthorized.



If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or any action omitted or taken in reliance on it, is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you believe that you have received this email in error, please contact the sender, delete this e-mail and destroy all copies.



=============================================================================>

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Schreck, George

2005-08-09



I agree. We cannot expect drivers to be responsible if we do not take

responsibility for our conduct as well. When I am commuting on my

bicycle, I often see cyclists riding the wrong way at night without

lights and helmets, wearing all black clothing. In a few cases I have

nearly had head on collisions with them in my bicycle. To expect a car

to see you in not reasonable. In addition, I often see cyclists running

red lights and stop signs. It reinforces in drivers minds that we are

not responsible and should not be on the roads. If we want to be

treated a vehicles with rights, we need to behave as such.





I am not suggesting that any of these were reasons why these fatalities

occurred. In fact, I suspect they were not. Nevertheless, every time

drivers see one of us behaving irresponsibly, it works against our

efforts to be treated properly, and suggests to drivers that in

accidents, the cyclist probably was at fault.



I would agree that in addition to BTA's five points, we need a sixth

regarding training for cyclists.



-----Original Message-----

From: Joel Morrissette [mailto:news4-@gmail.com]

Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 10:40 AM

To: shi-@lists.riseup.net; ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] BTA unveils 5-part safety plan



Sorry....misread your mail. I see you meant to add comments on the

*blog* post and not this one.



-Joel



On 8/9/05, Joel Morrissette <news4-@gmail.com> wrote:

 I think this is a good start. I particularly like that funding for

bike-related improvements and driver education are on the list. The

fair-share law is long overdue. Kudos to BTA for going after this

one. That said, I'd like to know a little more about the accidents

that occured this year before assessing it too much..



Specifically, were the cyclists obeying the rules of the road? Were

they wearing helmets? For those of us who ride and race regularly, I

these 2 points are habit. From what I can recall, I don't believe any

of the 5 riders killed on the road this year were wearing helmets. I

may be wrong. We need to work on this. Driver culpability was well

addressed in the 5-point plan - that's why I'm addressing cyclists

only here.



First, I'd like to see a major push in the community for cyclist

education about the rules of the road and our rights as riders. The

plan mentions making this part of driver's ed. I'd argue that many of

the riders in my neighborhood (and around Portland) are riding bikes

either because they don't have a license, or because they lost it

(DUI). In the first case, they're not going to get the information.

We need to find a way of getting it to them. For the remainder, we

need to find a non-confrontational way of getting the rider safety

message out.



I'd like to see the police have the ability to ticket people riding

improperly (on sidewalks, against traffic, etc). Every day I see

officers drive by poeple on bikes riding the wrong way down sidewalks

I have yet to see one stop. This leads me to believe they either

don't care or don't have the means for enforcement. If the law does

not provide that ability or is vague about where/how to ride, some

clarification may be in order. Bikes are a vehicle - let's start

treating them as such legally. On the flipside, we have to be careful

not to make life difficult for people riding - we want to remain a

bike-friendly community, and having law enforcement appear hostile to

riders won't help there.



Second, we need to approach the issue of helmets. I know Oregon has a

long and heated past with helmets and motorcycles, and I don't want to

stir up the hornet's nest here. Oh...why not.



This entire summer I can count on one hand the number of riders I've

seen wearing helmets. And I see hundreds of bikes go by my house

every week. I don't buy the "I'm and adult, it's my choice, it's my

life" argument. When you get hit by a car and end up in the hospital

with a head injury and no health insurance, it becomes my problem.

Should we look into a helmet law for all riders? I think so. Would

it pass? I doubt it. Doesn't hurt to try.



Thanks for the read. (Dons flame-retardant gear).

-Joel







On 8/9/05, Jonathan Maus <jona-@bikeportland.org> wrote:

 

Greetings bike community,



The BTA is stepping up to the plate for us. They have issued a

statement

  that outlines their response to the recent bicycle fatalities. You

can read

  a summary of their "5 part plan" and the full press release here -



http://bikeportland.org/2005/08/08/bta-responds-to-cyclist-deaths/



Please feel free to leave your comments below the post...it would be

great

  to have a constructive and open dialogue that people not on these

lists can

  read. Thanks.



--Jonathan

--------------------------

Jonathan Maus

BikePortland.org: To inform and inspire.

http://bikeportland.org

(503) 283-8855

cell (503) 706-8804

Subscribe via email! -

http://bikeportland.org/subscribe.php





To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com





------------------------------------------------------------------------------



This email is confidential and may be legally privileged.



It is intended solely for the addressee. Access to this email by anyone else, unless expressly approved by the sender or an authorized addressee, is unauthorized.



If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or any action omitted or taken in reliance on it, is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you believe that you have received this email in error, please contact the sender, delete this e-mail and destroy all copies.



==============================================================================



oregon-@comcast.net

2005-08-09

No need for the abestos suit, Joel. From my office overlooking the Burnside Bridge, I see too many cyclists without helmets and a significant number cutting the corners or riding against traffic then slicing across the road. I can only think that motorist frustration with the antics of these cyclists increases the risk for all of us. I know I get frustrated and occassionally angry when, as a driver, I watch cyclists blow through lights, cut across streets without regard for traffic or feel that they can start a left turn without any regard for who or what is behind them.



The BTA five part program is a step in the right direction. Like you, I would welcome equal enforcement of traffic laws as they apply to cyclists and motorists.



Peter



--

------------- __o

---------- _ '\<,_

----------(_)/ (_)_________________________



-------------- Original message --------------



 I think this is a good start. I particularly like that funding for

bike-related improvements and driver education are on the list. The

fair-share law is long overdue. Kudos to BTA for going after this

one. That said, I'd like to know a little more about the accidents

that occured this year before assessing it too much..



Specifically, were the cyclists obeying the rules of the road? Were

they wearing helmets? For those of us who ride and race regularly, I

these 2 points are habit. From what I can recall, I don't believe any

of the 5 riders killed on the road this year were wearing helmets. I

may be wrong. We need to work on this. Driver culpability was well

addressed in the 5-point plan - that's why I'm addressing cyclists

only here.



First, I'd like to see a major push in the community for cyclist

education about the rules of the road and our rights as riders. The

plan mentions making this part of driver's ed. I'd argue that many of

the riders in my neighborhood (and around Portland) are riding bikes

either because they don't have a license, or because they lost it

(DUI). In the first case, they're not going to get the information.

We need to find a way of getting it to them. For the remainder, we

need to find a non-confrontational way of getting the rider safety

message out.



I'd like to see the police have the ability to ticket people riding

improperly (on sidewalks, against traffic, etc). Every day I see

officers drive by poeple on bikes riding the wrong way down sidewalks

I have yet to see one stop. This leads me to believe they either

don't care or don't have the means for enforcement. If the law does

not provide that ability or is vague about where/how to ride, some

clarification may be in order. Bikes are a vehicle - let's start

treating them as such legally. On the flipside, we have to be careful

not to make life difficult for people riding - we want to remain a

bike-friendly community, and having law enforcement appear hostile to

riders won't help there.



Second, we need to approach the issue of helmets. I know Oregon has a

long and heated past with helmets and motorcycles, and I don't want to

stir up the hornet's nest here. Oh...why not.



This entire summer I can count on one hand the number of riders I've

seen wearing helmets. And I see hundreds of bikes go by my house

every week. I don't buy the "I'm and adult, it's my choice, it's my

life" argument. When you get hit by a car and end up in the hospital

with a head injury and no health insurance, it becomes my problem.

Should we look into a helmet law for all riders? I think so. Would

it pass? I doubt it. Doesn't hurt to try.



Thanks for the read. (Dons flame-retardant gear).

-Joel







On 8/9/05, Jonathan Maus wrote:

 

Greetings bike community,



The BTA is stepping up to the plate for us. They have issued a statement

that outlines their response to the recent bicycle fatalities. You can read

a summary of their "5 part plan" and the full press release here -



http://bikeportland.org/2005/08/08/bta-responds-to-cyclist-deaths/



Please feel free to leave your comments below the post...it would be great

to have a constructive and open dialogue that people not on these lists can

read. Thanks.



--Jonathan

--------------------------

Jonathan Maus

BikePortland.org: To inform and inspire.

http://bikeportland.org

(503) 283-8855

cell (503) 706-8804

Subscribe via email! -

http://bikeportland.org/subscribe.php





To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com



Susan Otcenas

2005-08-09



Joel,



This is not a flame. Just a few counterpoints to some of your ideas.



  Were they wearing helmets?



Irrelevant. Why? Because whether or not they were wearing helmets would

not have changed the fact that they were HIT. Too many motorists are

driving too fast and too recklessly, with too little regard for the rules of

the road and the cyclists/pedestrians they are thus endangering.   (Besides,

If I am struck at 45 miles an hour, whether or not I am wearing a helmet

will likely be irrelevant. I'm a zealot about wearing my own helmet; it's

just not relevant to a discussion of preventing collisions in the first

place.)



  Every day I see officers drive by people on bikes riding the wrong way

down sidewalks I have yet to see one stop.



There is no "wrong way" on a sidewalk. Sidewalks are two-way pedestrian

traffic. And except in parts of downtown portland, and certain other

downtown areas in other parts of Oregon, riding one's bike on the sidewalk

is perfectly legal. There are rules which must be followed, specifically

rules regarding the speed one may ride when crossing a curb-cut and passing

pedestrians. <Mr. Ginsberg can cite the ORS> But's it's still legal. Would

you outlaw the ability of a 5-year old child to ride on a sidewalk? Let's

not forget that some people ride on the sidewalk because they are too afraid

to venture out onto the street.



Now, I'd love to see some education about riding against traffic in a bike

lane. That happens too often, and it's dangerous. Typically kids on BMX

bikes, not wearing helmets...



IMHO, what I'd like to see the BTA advocate for is more PENALTIES for

motorists who hit cyclists and pedestrians. Think about our terminology for

a moment. We call them "accidents". Most of these incidents are not

accidents. They are COLLISIONS due to speeding, intoxication,

inattentiveness, cell-phone usage, etc. Motorists need to be held

accountable for their actions.



From the dictionary:



Main Entry: man.slaugh.ter

Pronunciation: 'man-"slo-t&r

Function: noun

: the unlawful killing of a human being without express or implied malice.



Main Entry: involuntary manslaughter

Function: noun

: manslaughter resulting from the failure to perform a legal duty expressly

required to safeguard human life, from the commission of an unlawful act not

constituting a felony, or from the COMMISSION OF A LAWFUL ACT IN A NEGLIGENT

OR IMPROPER MANNER (emphasis added).



Everytime I get on my bike, there's something in the back of my mind that

reminds me that if I get killed by a car, the chances that the perpetrator

will be prosecuted are almost nil. That drives me nuts.



Susan



--------------------------------------------

Susan Otcenas                  

TEAM ESTROGEN, INC. __~o

2038 NW Aloclek Dr., Suite 220     -\_<,

Hillsboro, OR 97124    (*)/'(*)



http://www.TeamEstrogen.com

1-877-310-4592                

--------------------------------------------

Cycling Apparel and Accessories for Women

--------------------------------------------



-----Original Message-----

From: Joel Morrissette [mailto:news4-@gmail.com]

Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 10:37 AM

To: shi-@lists.riseup.net; ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] BTA unveils 5-part safety plan





I think this is a good start. I particularly like that funding for

bike-related improvements and driver education are on the list. The

fair-share law is long overdue. Kudos to BTA for going after this one.

That said, I'd like to know a little more about the accidents that occured

this year before assessing it too much..



Specifically, were the cyclists obeying the rules of the road? Were they

wearing helmets? For those of us who ride and race regularly, I these 2

points are habit. From what I can recall, I don't believe any of the 5

riders killed on the road this year were wearing helmets. I may be wrong.

We need to work on this. Driver culpability was well addressed in the

5-point plan - that's why I'm addressing cyclists only here.



First, I'd like to see a major push in the community for cyclist education

about the rules of the road and our rights as riders. The plan mentions

making this part of driver's ed. I'd argue that many of the riders in my

neighborhood (and around Portland) are riding bikes either because they

don't have a license, or because they lost it (DUI). In the first case,

they're not going to get the information.

We need to find a way of getting it to them. For the remainder, we need to

find a non-confrontational way of getting the rider safety message out.



I'd like to see the police have the ability to ticket people riding

improperly (on sidewalks, against traffic, etc). Every day I see officers

drive by poeple on bikes riding the wrong way down sidewalks I have yet to

see one stop. This leads me to believe they either don't care or don't have

the means for enforcement. If the law does not provide that ability or is

vague about where/how to ride, some clarification may be in order. Bikes

are a vehicle - let's start treating them as such legally. On the flipside,

we have to be careful not to make life difficult for people riding - we want

to remain a bike-friendly community, and having law enforcement appear

hostile to riders won't help there.



Second, we need to approach the issue of helmets. I know Oregon has a long

and heated past with helmets and motorcycles, and I don't want to stir up

the hornet's nest here. Oh...why not.



This entire summer I can count on one hand the number of riders I've seen

wearing helmets. And I see hundreds of bikes go by my house every week. I

don't buy the "I'm and adult, it's my choice, it's my life" argument. When

you get hit by a car and end up in the hospital with a head injury and no

health insurance, it becomes my problem.

Should we look into a helmet law for all riders? I think so. Would it

pass? I doubt it. Doesn't hurt to try.



Thanks for the read. (Dons flame-retardant gear).

-Joel







On 8/9/05, Jonathan Maus <jona-@bikeportland.org> wrote:

 

Greetings bike community,

   

The BTA is stepping up to the plate for us. They have issued a

statement that outlines their response to the recent bicycle

fatalities. You can read a summary of their "5 part plan" and the

full press release here -

   

http://bikeportland.org/2005/08/08/bta-responds-to-cyclist-deaths/

   

Please feel free to leave your comments below the post...it would be

great to have a constructive and open dialogue that people not on

these lists can read. Thanks.

   

--Jonathan

--------------------------

Jonathan Maus

BikePortland.org: To inform and inspire. http://bikeportland.org

(503) 283-8855

cell (503) 706-8804

Subscribe via email! -

http://bikeportland.org/subscribe.php



   

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com



Joel Morrissette

2005-08-09



Sorry....misread your mail. I see you meant to add comments on the

*blog* post and not this one.



-Joel



On 8/9/05, Joel Morrissette <news4-@gmail.com> wrote:

 I think this is a good start. I particularly like that funding for

bike-related improvements and driver education are on the list. The

fair-share law is long overdue. Kudos to BTA for going after this

one. That said, I'd like to know a little more about the accidents

that occured this year before assessing it too much..



Specifically, were the cyclists obeying the rules of the road? Were

they wearing helmets? For those of us who ride and race regularly, I

these 2 points are habit. From what I can recall, I don't believe any

of the 5 riders killed on the road this year were wearing helmets. I

may be wrong. We need to work on this. Driver culpability was well

addressed in the 5-point plan - that's why I'm addressing cyclists

only here.



First, I'd like to see a major push in the community for cyclist

education about the rules of the road and our rights as riders. The

plan mentions making this part of driver's ed. I'd argue that many of

the riders in my neighborhood (and around Portland) are riding bikes

either because they don't have a license, or because they lost it

(DUI). In the first case, they're not going to get the information.

We need to find a way of getting it to them. For the remainder, we

need to find a non-confrontational way of getting the rider safety

message out.



I'd like to see the police have the ability to ticket people riding

improperly (on sidewalks, against traffic, etc). Every day I see

officers drive by poeple on bikes riding the wrong way down sidewalks

I have yet to see one stop. This leads me to believe they either

don't care or don't have the means for enforcement. If the law does

not provide that ability or is vague about where/how to ride, some

clarification may be in order. Bikes are a vehicle - let's start

treating them as such legally. On the flipside, we have to be careful

not to make life difficult for people riding - we want to remain a

bike-friendly community, and having law enforcement appear hostile to

riders won't help there.



Second, we need to approach the issue of helmets. I know Oregon has a

long and heated past with helmets and motorcycles, and I don't want to

stir up the hornet's nest here. Oh...why not.



This entire summer I can count on one hand the number of riders I've

seen wearing helmets. And I see hundreds of bikes go by my house

every week. I don't buy the "I'm and adult, it's my choice, it's my

life" argument. When you get hit by a car and end up in the hospital

with a head injury and no health insurance, it becomes my problem.

Should we look into a helmet law for all riders? I think so. Would

it pass? I doubt it. Doesn't hurt to try.



Thanks for the read. (Dons flame-retardant gear).

-Joel







On 8/9/05, Jonathan Maus <jona-@bikeportland.org> wrote:

 

Greetings bike community,



The BTA is stepping up to the plate for us. They have issued a statement

that outlines their response to the recent bicycle fatalities. You can read

a summary of their "5 part plan" and the full press release here -



http://bikeportland.org/2005/08/08/bta-responds-to-cyclist-deaths/



Please feel free to leave your comments below the post...it would be great

to have a constructive and open dialogue that people not on these lists can

read. Thanks.



--Jonathan

--------------------------

Jonathan Maus

BikePortland.org: To inform and inspire.

http://bikeportland.org

(503) 283-8855

cell (503) 706-8804

Subscribe via email! -

http://bikeportland.org/subscribe.php





To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com



Joel Morrissette

2005-08-09



I think this is a good start. I particularly like that funding for

bike-related improvements and driver education are on the list. The

fair-share law is long overdue. Kudos to BTA for going after this

one. That said, I'd like to know a little more about the accidents

that occured this year before assessing it too much..



Specifically, were the cyclists obeying the rules of the road? Were

they wearing helmets? For those of us who ride and race regularly, I

these 2 points are habit. From what I can recall, I don't believe any

of the 5 riders killed on the road this year were wearing helmets. I

may be wrong. We need to work on this. Driver culpability was well

addressed in the 5-point plan - that's why I'm addressing cyclists

only here.



First, I'd like to see a major push in the community for cyclist

education about the rules of the road and our rights as riders. The

plan mentions making this part of driver's ed. I'd argue that many of

the riders in my neighborhood (and around Portland) are riding bikes

either because they don't have a license, or because they lost it

(DUI). In the first case, they're not going to get the information.

We need to find a way of getting it to them. For the remainder, we

need to find a non-confrontational way of getting the rider safety

message out.



I'd like to see the police have the ability to ticket people riding

improperly (on sidewalks, against traffic, etc). Every day I see

officers drive by poeple on bikes riding the wrong way down sidewalks

I have yet to see one stop. This leads me to believe they either

don't care or don't have the means for enforcement. If the law does

not provide that ability or is vague about where/how to ride, some

clarification may be in order. Bikes are a vehicle - let's start

treating them as such legally. On the flipside, we have to be careful

not to make life difficult for people riding - we want to remain a

bike-friendly community, and having law enforcement appear hostile to

riders won't help there.



Second, we need to approach the issue of helmets. I know Oregon has a

long and heated past with helmets and motorcycles, and I don't want to

stir up the hornet's nest here. Oh...why not.



This entire summer I can count on one hand the number of riders I've

seen wearing helmets. And I see hundreds of bikes go by my house

every week. I don't buy the "I'm and adult, it's my choice, it's my

life" argument. When you get hit by a car and end up in the hospital

with a head injury and no health insurance, it becomes my problem.

Should we look into a helmet law for all riders? I think so. Would

it pass? I doubt it. Doesn't hurt to try.



Thanks for the read. (Dons flame-retardant gear).

-Joel







On 8/9/05, Jonathan Maus <jona-@bikeportland.org> wrote:

 

Greetings bike community,

   

The BTA is stepping up to the plate for us. They have issued a statement

that outlines their response to the recent bicycle fatalities. You can read

a summary of their "5 part plan" and the full press release here -

   

http://bikeportland.org/2005/08/08/bta-responds-to-cyclist-deaths/

   

Please feel free to leave your comments below the post...it would be great

to have a constructive and open dialogue that people not on these lists can

read. Thanks.

   

--Jonathan

--------------------------

Jonathan Maus

BikePortland.org: To inform and inspire.

http://bikeportland.org

(503) 283-8855

cell (503) 706-8804

Subscribe via email! -

http://bikeportland.org/subscribe.php



   

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com



Jonathan Maus

2005-08-09

Greetings bike community,



The BTA is stepping up to the plate for us. They have issued a statement that outlines their response to the recent bicycle fatalities. You can read a summary of their "5 part plan" and the full press release here -



http://bikeportland.org/2005/08/08/bta-responds-to-cyclist-deaths/



Please feel free to leave your comments below the post...it would be great to have a constructive and open dialogue that people not on these lists can read. Thanks.



--Jonathan

--------------------------

Jonathan Maus

BikePortland.org: To inform and inspire.

http://bikeportland.org

(503) 283-8855

cell (503) 706-8804

Subscribe via email! - http://bikeportland.org/subscribe.php