Schreck, George

On the other hand, we tend to lump all drivers together when discussing

auto vs. cyclist issues, so maybe it is fair.



-----Original Message-----

From: markjgi-@yahoo.com [mailto:markjgi-@yahoo.com]

Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 4:48 PM

To: dirt-@oregontrail.net; RCJoh-@attglobal.net; ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] cyclist charged with manslaughter



As I wrote to a bicycle activist list on this same

issue, unfortunately, anyone on a bicycle is a

bicyclist in public opinion.



the guy who lost his drivers license, and rides

sidewalk to street to crosswalk to jumping up the

curb. The kid who broncos off the wall and into

oncoming traffic. The homeless guy who needs to get

around and couldn't careless for stop signs. The guy

on the $5,000 carbon rig with cool lightweight stuff

and lycra.



All are bicyclists in the public eye. It is unfair,

but it is reality.



We are all responsible for the image and for our

actions as they reflect on that image.



Mark Ginsberg, Esq.



--- david baker <dirt-@oregontrail.net> wrote:



 He should be portrayed as a "person using a bicycle

for transport purposes",

and "driver" is a term for elite users of motor

vehicles only.

I use "person using a motor vehicle for transport

purposes". :)



----- Original Message -----

From: <RCJoh-@attglobal.net>

To: <ob-@topica.com>

Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 8:18 AM

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] cyclist charged with

manslaughter





 My friends, two points on this.

First, I saw a picture of the guy who killed the

old lady on the news.

 Not to judge by appearances but he sure didn't

look the type that rode a

 bicycle by choice. Seemed to me this was just

another stop on his slide

 to the bottom of societys ladder. Manslaughter is

a pretty serious charge

 and I'll bet this isn't the first brush with the

law this individual has

 had. Time will tell.

The only beef I have with the issue at this point

is the accuseds

 portrayal in the media as a cyclist. For sure he

is not representative of

 us as a group. My suggestion is for us to send

polite reminders of this

 fact to the media that reports it as such. You

may think this won't work

 but I can guarantee you it does. I got CNN to

change their manner of

 reporting references to our fair state on a

national profile news story,

 along with a respectful thanks from their

organization for my trouble. It

 does work.

Second, on the broader issue of fairness and

equality of justice where

 road users are injured I believe there is a

definite bias. And it isn't

 just us bicyclists that get the short end of the

stick, motorcyclists have

 been getting the same second class treatment for

years as well.

 Fortunately for all of us the American

Motorcyclist Association is doing

 something about it. It's called the Justice For

All Campaign and it is

 focused to ensure at all road users (cyclists -

motorized or not -

 pedestrians, etc.) receive fair treatment and

those that deserve

 punishment receive it. This program is supported

by AMA membership dues

 and if you feel your interests are not being

adequately safeguarded

 locally I urge you to consider supporting this

organization by publicizing

 their efforts, referring them cases and/or

financial contributions.

 Please visit the following link to learn more:

http://www.amadirectlink.com/justice/whatwerefightingfor.asp

  

Thanks,

Rick C Johnson

15 year AMA member and lifelong bicyclist







Dave German wrote:



 Right-on. Screw the cyclist vs. driver issue.

That lady was someone's

  mom, wife, friend grandmother, lover, teacher.

That carless bung hole is

  getting what he deserves!





 From: Craig Austin <aust-@exponent.com>

Reply-To: aust-@exponent.com

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] cyclist charged with

manslaughter

   Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 12:36:22 -0700



So you think a motorist who blew through the

same stop sign and hit the

   71-year-old lady would've gotten off at the

discretion of the police

   officer? Very doubtful. That's exactly the kind

of statement that costs

   cyclists all credibility in the whole

rights/responsibilities on the

   road discussion. Our collective response should

immediately be "obey the

   damn traffic rules if you ride a bike!" not "I

bet a car driver wouldn't

   have been punished."



________________________________



From: Chris Clemow [mailto:ccle-@grpmack.com]

Sent: Monday, September 12, 2005 10:32 AM

To: Craig Austin; george.-@pacificorp.com;

ob-@topica.com

   Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] cyclist charged with

manslaughter

   



I have often wondered this myself. After

checking Oregon law, I find

   the following definition: "MANSLAUGHTER

-A person recklessly causes the death of

another, or acting under

   extreme emotional disturbance, causes the death

of another, or acting

   under circumstances when a person reasonably

believes the circumstances

   provide a legal justification or excuse for his

conduct constitutes

   manslaughter."



So... it appears as if there is some discretion

of the behalf of the law

   enforcement agency/officer. And I certainly

believe it is skewed toward

   the benefit of motorists.



Chris Clemow



  >"Schreck, George"

<george.-@pacificorp.com> 9/12/2005 11:12:13

   AM >>>



Although I find it appropriate that the cyclist

was charged under the

   circumstances, I get the impression that in some

recent instances where

   cyclists were hit by cars, the motorist was

cited only for a moving

   violation. Is there a double standard here, or

am I being too sensitive

   and are the circumstances different?



More fodder for the chat mill.



________________________________



From: Craig Austin [mailto:aust-@exponent.com]

Sent: Monday, September 12, 2005 11:01 AM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: [OBRA Chat] cyclist charged with

manslaughter

   



Good lesson for those of us who sometimes

disregard stop signs.

   

http://www.oregonlive.com/newsflash/regional/index.ssf?/base/news-12/112

    6539840200950.xml&storylist=orlocal





To respond to the whole group send to

ob-@topica.com.

   To respond to the list manager send to

cmur-@obra.org

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obra-uns-@topica.com

   To respond to the whole group send to

ob-@topica.com.

   To respond to the list manager send to

cmur-@obra.org

   To unsubscribe send to

obra-uns-@topica.com

   

------------------------------------------------------------------------

    ------



This email is confidential and may be legally

privileged.

   

It is intended solely for the addressee. Access

to this email by anyone

   else, unless expressly approved by the sender or

an authorized

   addressee, is unauthorized.



If you are not the intended recipient, any

disclosure, copying,

   distribution or any action omitted or taken in

reliance on it, is

=== message truncated ===





Mark J. Ginsberg

Attorney At Law

621 SW Morrison St., Ste. 900

Portland, OR 97204

(503) 542-3000

Fax (503) 227-2530

markjgi-@yahoo.com

www.bikesafetylaw.com



__________________________________________________

Do You Yahoo!?

Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around

http://mail.yahoo.com





------------------------------------------------------------------------------



This email is confidential and may be legally privileged.



It is intended solely for the addressee. Access to this email by anyone else, unless expressly approved by the sender or an authorized addressee, is unauthorized.



If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or any action omitted or taken in reliance on it, is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you believe that you have received this email in error, please contact the sender, delete this e-mail and destroy all copies.



==============================================================================

markjgi-@yahoo.com

As I wrote to a bicycle activist list on this same

issue, unfortunately, anyone on a bicycle is a

bicyclist in public opinion.



the guy who lost his drivers license, and rides

sidewalk to street to crosswalk to jumping up the

curb. The kid who broncos off the wall and into

oncoming traffic. The homeless guy who needs to get

around and couldn't careless for stop signs. The guy

on the $5,000 carbon rig with cool lightweight stuff

and lycra.



All are bicyclists in the public eye. It is unfair,

but it is reality.



We are all responsible for the image and for our

actions as they reflect on that image.



Mark Ginsberg, Esq.



--- david baker <dirt-@oregontrail.net> wrote:



 He should be portrayed as a "person using a bicycle

for transport purposes",

and "driver" is a term for elite users of motor

vehicles only.

I use "person using a motor vehicle for transport

purposes". :)



----- Original Message -----

From: <RCJoh-@attglobal.net>

To: <ob-@topica.com>

Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 8:18 AM

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] cyclist charged with

manslaughter





 My friends, two points on this.

First, I saw a picture of the guy who killed the

old lady on the news.

 Not to judge by appearances but he sure didn't

look the type that rode a

 bicycle by choice. Seemed to me this was just

another stop on his slide

 to the bottom of societys ladder. Manslaughter is

a pretty serious charge

 and I'll bet this isn't the first brush with the

law this individual has

 had. Time will tell.

The only beef I have with the issue at this point

is the accuseds

 portrayal in the media as a cyclist. For sure he

is not representative of

 us as a group. My suggestion is for us to send

polite reminders of this

 fact to the media that reports it as such. You

may think this won't work

 but I can guarantee you it does. I got CNN to

change their manner of

 reporting references to our fair state on a

national profile news story,

 along with a respectful thanks from their

organization for my trouble. It

 does work.

Second, on the broader issue of fairness and

equality of justice where

 road users are injured I believe there is a

definite bias. And it isn't

 just us bicyclists that get the short end of the

stick, motorcyclists have

 been getting the same second class treatment for

years as well.

 Fortunately for all of us the American

Motorcyclist Association is doing

 something about it. It's called the Justice For

All Campaign and it is

 focused to ensure at all road users (cyclists -

motorized or not -

 pedestrians, etc.) receive fair treatment and

those that deserve

 punishment receive it. This program is supported

by AMA membership dues

 and if you feel your interests are not being

adequately safeguarded

 locally I urge you to consider supporting this

organization by publicizing

 their efforts, referring them cases and/or

financial contributions.

 Please visit the following link to learn more:

http://www.amadirectlink.com/justice/whatwerefightingfor.asp

  

Thanks,

Rick C Johnson

15 year AMA member and lifelong bicyclist







Dave German wrote:



 Right-on. Screw the cyclist vs. driver issue.

That lady was someone's

  mom, wife, friend grandmother, lover, teacher.

That carless bung hole is

  getting what he deserves!





 From: Craig Austin <aust-@exponent.com>

Reply-To: aust-@exponent.com

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] cyclist charged with

manslaughter

   Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 12:36:22 -0700



So you think a motorist who blew through the

same stop sign and hit the

   71-year-old lady would've gotten off at the

discretion of the police

   officer? Very doubtful. That's exactly the kind

of statement that costs

   cyclists all credibility in the whole

rights/responsibilities on the

   road discussion. Our collective response should

immediately be "obey the

   damn traffic rules if you ride a bike!" not "I

bet a car driver wouldn't

   have been punished."



________________________________



From: Chris Clemow [mailto:ccle-@grpmack.com]

Sent: Monday, September 12, 2005 10:32 AM

To: Craig Austin; george.-@pacificorp.com;

ob-@topica.com

   Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] cyclist charged with

manslaughter

   



I have often wondered this myself. After

checking Oregon law, I find

   the following definition: "MANSLAUGHTER

-A person recklessly causes the death of

another, or acting under

   extreme emotional disturbance, causes the death

of another, or acting

   under circumstances when a person reasonably

believes the circumstances

   provide a legal justification or excuse for his

conduct constitutes

   manslaughter."



So... it appears as if there is some discretion

of the behalf of the law

   enforcement agency/officer. And I certainly

believe it is skewed toward

   the benefit of motorists.



Chris Clemow



  >"Schreck, George"

<george.-@pacificorp.com> 9/12/2005 11:12:13

   AM >>>



Although I find it appropriate that the cyclist

was charged under the

   circumstances, I get the impression that in some

recent instances where

   cyclists were hit by cars, the motorist was

cited only for a moving

   violation. Is there a double standard here, or

am I being too sensitive

   and are the circumstances different?



More fodder for the chat mill.



________________________________



From: Craig Austin [mailto:aust-@exponent.com]

Sent: Monday, September 12, 2005 11:01 AM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: [OBRA Chat] cyclist charged with

manslaughter

   



Good lesson for those of us who sometimes

disregard stop signs.

   

http://www.oregonlive.com/newsflash/regional/index.ssf?/base/news-12/112

    6539840200950.xml&storylist=orlocal





To respond to the whole group send to

ob-@topica.com.

   To respond to the list manager send to

cmur-@obra.org

   To unsubscribe send to

obra-uns-@topica.com

   To respond to the whole group send to

ob-@topica.com.

   To respond to the list manager send to

cmur-@obra.org

   To unsubscribe send to

obra-uns-@topica.com

   

------------------------------------------------------------------------

    ------



This email is confidential and may be legally

privileged.

   

It is intended solely for the addressee. Access

to this email by anyone

   else, unless expressly approved by the sender or

an authorized

   addressee, is unauthorized.



If you are not the intended recipient, any

disclosure, copying,

   distribution or any action omitted or taken in

reliance on it, is

=== message truncated ===





Mark J. Ginsberg

Attorney At Law

621 SW Morrison St., Ste. 900

Portland, OR 97204

(503) 542-3000

Fax (503) 227-2530

markjgi-@yahoo.com

www.bikesafetylaw.com



__________________________________________________

Do You Yahoo!?

Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around

http://mail.yahoo.com

ed.ma-@gmail.com

I thought a few years back the Supreme Court proved that a bicycle was not

capable of causing manslaughter in normal operation.

Something about a DWI and the weight and force of the bicycle couldn't cause

death like a car. I'll have to dig deep into the net to see if I can find

that blurb...Ed



On 9/13/05, david baker <dirt-@oregontrail.net> wrote:

 

He should be portrayed as a "person using a bicycle for transport

purposes",

and "driver" is a term for elite users of motor vehicles only.

I use "person using a motor vehicle for transport purposes". :)



----- Original Message -----

From: <RCJoh-@attglobal.net>

To: <ob-@topica.com>

Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 8:18 AM

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] cyclist charged with manslaughter





 My friends, two points on this.

First, I saw a picture of the guy who killed the old lady on the news.

Not to judge by appearances but he sure didn't look the type that rode a

bicycle by choice. Seemed to me this was just another stop on his slide

to the bottom of societys ladder. Manslaughter is a pretty serious

charge

 and I'll bet this isn't the first brush with the law this individual has

had. Time will tell.

The only beef I have with the issue at this point is the accuseds

portrayal in the media as a cyclist. For sure he is not representative

of

 us as a group. My suggestion is for us to send polite reminders of this

fact to the media that reports it as such. You may think this won't work

but I can guarantee you it does. I got CNN to change their manner of

reporting references to our fair state on a national profile news story,

along with a respectful thanks from their organization for my trouble.

It

 does work.

Second, on the broader issue of fairness and equality of justice where

road users are injured I believe there is a definite bias. And it isn't

just us bicyclists that get the short end of the stick, motorcyclists

have

 been getting the same second class treatment for years as well.

Fortunately for all of us the American Motorcyclist Association is doing

something about it. It's called the Justice For All Campaign and it is

focused to ensure at all road users (cyclists - motorized or not -

pedestrians, etc.) receive fair treatment and those that deserve

punishment receive it. This program is supported by AMA membership dues

and if you feel your interests are not being adequately safeguarded

locally I urge you to consider supporting this organization by

publicizing

 their efforts, referring them cases and/or financial contributions.

Please visit the following link to learn more:



http://www.amadirectlink.com/justice/whatwerefightingfor.asp



Thanks,

Rick C Johnson

15 year AMA member and lifelong bicyclist







Dave German wrote:



 Right-on. Screw the cyclist vs. driver issue. That lady was someone's

mom, wife, friend grandmother, lover, teacher. That carless bung hole

is

  getting what he deserves!





 From: Craig Austin <aust-@exponent.com>

Reply-To: aust-@exponent.com

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] cyclist charged with manslaughter

Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 12:36:22 -0700



So you think a motorist who blew through the same stop sign and hit

the

   71-year-old lady would've gotten off at the discretion of the police

officer? Very doubtful. That's exactly the kind of statement that

costs

   cyclists all credibility in the whole rights/responsibilities on the

road discussion. Our collective response should immediately be "obey

the

   damn traffic rules if you ride a bike!" not "I bet a car driver

wouldn't

   have been punished."



________________________________



From: Chris Clemow [mailto:ccle-@grpmack.com]

Sent: Monday, September 12, 2005 10:32 AM

To: Craig Austin; george.-@pacificorp.com; ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] cyclist charged with manslaughter





I have often wondered this myself. After checking Oregon law, I find

the following definition: "MANSLAUGHTER

-A person recklessly causes the death of another, or acting under

extreme emotional disturbance, causes the death of another, or acting

under circumstances when a person reasonably believes the

circumstances

   provide a legal justification or excuse for his conduct constitutes

manslaughter."



So... it appears as if there is some discretion of the behalf of the

law

   enforcement agency/officer. And I certainly believe it is skewed

toward

   the benefit of motorists.



Chris Clemow



  >"Schreck, George" <george.-@pacificorp.com> 9/12/2005

11:12:13

   AM >>>



Although I find it appropriate that the cyclist was charged under the

circumstances, I get the impression that in some recent instances

where

   cyclists were hit by cars, the motorist was cited only for a moving

violation. Is there a double standard here, or am I being too

sensitive

   and are the circumstances different?



More fodder for the chat mill.



________________________________



From: Craig Austin [mailto:aust-@exponent.com]

Sent: Monday, September 12, 2005 11:01 AM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: [OBRA Chat] cyclist charged with manslaughter





Good lesson for those of us who sometimes disregard stop signs.

http://www.oregonlive.com/newsflash/regional/index.ssf?/base/news-12/112

   6539840200950.xml&storylist=orlocal





To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

------------------------------------------------------------------------

   ------



This email is confidential and may be legally privileged.



It is intended solely for the addressee. Access to this email by

anyone

   else, unless expressly approved by the sender or an authorized

addressee, is unauthorized.



If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying,

distribution or any action omitted or taken in reliance on it, is

prohibited and may be unlawful. If you believe that you have received

this email in error, please contact the sender, delete this e-mail and

destroy all copies.

=======================================================================> >>> =====> >>>

   

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

--

All your OIL are belong to U.S.

david baker

He should be portrayed as a "person using a bicycle for transport purposes",

and "driver" is a term for elite users of motor vehicles only.

I use "person using a motor vehicle for transport purposes". :)



----- Original Message -----

From: <RCJoh-@attglobal.net>

To: <ob-@topica.com>

Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 8:18 AM

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] cyclist charged with manslaughter





 My friends, two points on this.

First, I saw a picture of the guy who killed the old lady on the news.

Not to judge by appearances but he sure didn't look the type that rode a

bicycle by choice. Seemed to me this was just another stop on his slide

to the bottom of societys ladder. Manslaughter is a pretty serious charge

and I'll bet this isn't the first brush with the law this individual has

had. Time will tell.

The only beef I have with the issue at this point is the accuseds

portrayal in the media as a cyclist. For sure he is not representative of

us as a group. My suggestion is for us to send polite reminders of this

fact to the media that reports it as such. You may think this won't work

but I can guarantee you it does. I got CNN to change their manner of

reporting references to our fair state on a national profile news story,

along with a respectful thanks from their organization for my trouble. It

does work.

Second, on the broader issue of fairness and equality of justice where

road users are injured I believe there is a definite bias. And it isn't

just us bicyclists that get the short end of the stick, motorcyclists have

been getting the same second class treatment for years as well.

Fortunately for all of us the American Motorcyclist Association is doing

something about it. It's called the Justice For All Campaign and it is

focused to ensure at all road users (cyclists - motorized or not -

pedestrians, etc.) receive fair treatment and those that deserve

punishment receive it. This program is supported by AMA membership dues

and if you feel your interests are not being adequately safeguarded

locally I urge you to consider supporting this organization by publicizing

their efforts, referring them cases and/or financial contributions.

Please visit the following link to learn more:



http://www.amadirectlink.com/justice/whatwerefightingfor.asp



Thanks,

Rick C Johnson

15 year AMA member and lifelong bicyclist







Dave German wrote:



 Right-on. Screw the cyclist vs. driver issue. That lady was someone's

mom, wife, friend grandmother, lover, teacher. That carless bung hole is

getting what he deserves!





 From: Craig Austin <aust-@exponent.com>

Reply-To: aust-@exponent.com

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] cyclist charged with manslaughter

Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 12:36:22 -0700



So you think a motorist who blew through the same stop sign and hit the

71-year-old lady would've gotten off at the discretion of the police

officer? Very doubtful. That's exactly the kind of statement that costs

cyclists all credibility in the whole rights/responsibilities on the

road discussion. Our collective response should immediately be "obey the

damn traffic rules if you ride a bike!" not "I bet a car driver wouldn't

have been punished."



________________________________



From: Chris Clemow [mailto:ccle-@grpmack.com]

Sent: Monday, September 12, 2005 10:32 AM

To: Craig Austin; george.-@pacificorp.com; ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] cyclist charged with manslaughter





I have often wondered this myself. After checking Oregon law, I find

the following definition: "MANSLAUGHTER

-A person recklessly causes the death of another, or acting under

extreme emotional disturbance, causes the death of another, or acting

under circumstances when a person reasonably believes the circumstances

provide a legal justification or excuse for his conduct constitutes

manslaughter."



So... it appears as if there is some discretion of the behalf of the law

enforcement agency/officer. And I certainly believe it is skewed toward

the benefit of motorists.



Chris Clemow



   "Schreck, George" <george.-@pacificorp.com> 9/12/2005 11:12:13

AM >>>



Although I find it appropriate that the cyclist was charged under the

circumstances, I get the impression that in some recent instances where

cyclists were hit by cars, the motorist was cited only for a moving

violation. Is there a double standard here, or am I being too sensitive

and are the circumstances different?



More fodder for the chat mill.



________________________________



From: Craig Austin [mailto:aust-@exponent.com]

Sent: Monday, September 12, 2005 11:01 AM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: [OBRA Chat] cyclist charged with manslaughter





Good lesson for those of us who sometimes disregard stop signs.



http://www.oregonlive.com/newsflash/regional/index.ssf?/base/news-12/112

6539840200950.xml&storylist=orlocal





To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com



------------------------------------------------------------------------

------



This email is confidential and may be legally privileged.



It is intended solely for the addressee. Access to this email by anyone

else, unless expressly approved by the sender or an authorized

addressee, is unauthorized.



If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying,

distribution or any action omitted or taken in reliance on it, is

prohibited and may be unlawful. If you believe that you have received

this email in error, please contact the sender, delete this e-mail and

destroy all copies.



========================================================================

======





To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

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To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

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To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

Schreck, George

Are you sure? Lately, there have been cyclist fatalities, and the

motorist was given only a ticket.



-----Original Message-----

From: Andrew Beehler [mailto:andyc-@hotmail.com]

Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 10:15 AM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] cyclist charged with manslaughter



The point is that if a person in a car had blown through a stop sign and

killed a cyclist, they would have been prosecuted just the same as the

cyclist hitting and killing a person.



-----Original Message-----

From: Schreck, George [mailto:george.-@pacificorp.com]

Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 9:32 AM

To: dave_g-@hotmail.com; aust-@exponent.com; ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] cyclist charged with manslaughter



I think you are missing the point. What about the cyclists that have

been killed by careless drivers. Are they not valued by someone as

well? We are not discussing whether the cyclist deserves to be

prosecuted, we are discussing even handed treatment.



-----Original Message-----

From: Dave German [mailto:dave_g-@hotmail.com]

Sent: Monday, September 12, 2005 9:49 PM

To: aust-@exponent.com; ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] cyclist charged with manslaughter



Right-on. Screw the cyclist vs. driver issue. That lady was someone's

mom,

wife, friend grandmother, lover, teacher. That carless bung hole is

getting

what he deserves!





 From: Craig Austin <aust-@exponent.com>

Reply-To: aust-@exponent.com

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] cyclist charged with manslaughter

Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 12:36:22 -0700



So you think a motorist who blew through the same stop sign and hit the

71-year-old lady would've gotten off at the discretion of the police

officer? Very doubtful. That's exactly the kind of statement that costs

cyclists all credibility in the whole rights/responsibilities on the

road discussion. Our collective response should immediately be "obey

the

 damn traffic rules if you ride a bike!" not "I bet a car driver

wouldn't

 have been punished."



________________________________



From: Chris Clemow [mailto:ccle-@grpmack.com]

Sent: Monday, September 12, 2005 10:32 AM

To: Craig Austin; george.-@pacificorp.com; ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] cyclist charged with manslaughter





I have often wondered this myself. After checking Oregon law, I find

the following definition: "MANSLAUGHTER

-A person recklessly causes the death of another, or acting under

extreme emotional disturbance, causes the death of another, or acting

under circumstances when a person reasonably believes the circumstances

provide a legal justification or excuse for his conduct constitutes

manslaughter."



So... it appears as if there is some discretion of the behalf of the

law

 enforcement agency/officer. And I certainly believe it is skewed

toward

 the benefit of motorists.



Chris Clemow



   "Schreck, George" <george.-@pacificorp.com> 9/12/2005

11:12:13

 AM >>>



Although I find it appropriate that the cyclist was charged under the

circumstances, I get the impression that in some recent instances where

cyclists were hit by cars, the motorist was cited only for a moving

violation. Is there a double standard here, or am I being too

sensitive

 and are the circumstances different?



More fodder for the chat mill.



________________________________



From: Craig Austin [mailto:aust-@exponent.com]

Sent: Monday, September 12, 2005 11:01 AM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: [OBRA Chat] cyclist charged with manslaughter





Good lesson for those of us who sometimes disregard stop signs.



http://www.oregonlive.com/newsflash/regional/index.ssf?/base/news-12/11

2

 6539840200950.xml&storylist=orlocal





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==============================================================================

Craig Austin

That's an interesting statement, but look! I can also cut a small

excerpt (from the same article, by the way) to make a point:



"A Mercury News review of bicycle fatalities over the past five years

shows that most often, the cyclists themselves are at fault."

"Since 2000, 25 cyclists have died in Santa Clara and San Mateo counties

after collisions with vehicle drivers. According to investigators, about

half of them failed to follow a basic rule of the road or lost control

of their bikes.



Six cyclists were killed after they abruptly turned into a car, pulled

out in front of a car, left the designated bike lane or rode against

traffic. The most recent fatal accident occurred Sunday in San Jose,

when a 15-year-old riding against traffic stopped to stamp out a

cigarette and was hit by a driver who fled.



``Motorists do dumb things, and bicyclists do even dumber things,'' said

Mike Nelson, president of the Peninsula Bicycle & Pedestrian Coalition,

which promotes cycling as an alternative to cars.





This excerpt shows what we're up against in the quest for fair and equal

treatment, too. The article is informative but it clearly states several

reasons that no charges were leveled in many of the accidents. Read the

whole thing.



________________________________



From: Jonathan Maus [mailto:jona-@bikeportland.org]

Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 9:19 AM

To: andyc-@hotmail.com; ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] cyclist charged with manslaughter





Andrew said:

"The point is that if a person in a car had blown through a stop sign

and

killed a cyclist, they would have been prosecuted just the same as the

cyclist hitting and killing a person."



I strongly disagree



Here is a very interesting excerpt from a recent article in the San Jose

Mercury News. It gives you an idea of what we're up against in the

quest for fair and equal treatment:



"prosecutors have filed vehicular manslaughter charges against

just four drivers in 25 (bicyclist) deaths - and murder charges against

only one driver. In four of the 25 cases, prosecutors declined to file

charges, and in one instance they pursued lesser charges than

manslaughter. Even when the cyclist is clearly the victim, prosecutors

may opt not to bring charges because, they say, jurors tend to

sympathize with drivers. They say, `Gosh, I do that all the time,' ''

said Peter Lynch, a deputy district attorney in San Mateo County."



http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/12461118.htm

(you might have to register to read it).







--Jonathan

--------------------------

BikePortland.org: To inform and inspire.

http://bikeportland.org

(503) 283-8855

cell (503) 706-8804

Subscribe via email:

http://bikeportland.org/subscribe.php



----- Original Message -----

From: Andrew Beehler <mailto:andyc-@hotmail.com>

To: ob-@topica.com

Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 10:15 AM

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] cyclist charged with manslaughter



The point is that if a person in a car had blown through a stop

sign and

killed a cyclist, they would have been prosecuted just the same

as the

cyclist hitting and killing a person.



-----Original Message-----

From: Schreck, George [mailto:george.-@pacificorp.com]

Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 9:32 AM

To: dave_g-@hotmail.com; aust-@exponent.com;

ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] cyclist charged with manslaughter



I think you are missing the point. What about the cyclists that

have

been killed by careless drivers. Are they not valued by someone

as

well? We are not discussing whether the cyclist deserves to be

prosecuted, we are discussing even handed treatment.



-----Original Message-----

From: Dave German [mailto:dave_g-@hotmail.com]

Sent: Monday, September 12, 2005 9:49 PM

To: aust-@exponent.com; ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] cyclist charged with manslaughter



Right-on. Screw the cyclist vs. driver issue. That lady was

someone's

mom,

wife, friend grandmother, lover, teacher. That carless bung

hole is

getting

what he deserves!





>From: Craig Austin <aust-@exponent.com>

>Reply-To: aust-@exponent.com

>To: ob-@topica.com

>Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] cyclist charged with manslaughter

>Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 12:36:22 -0700

>

>So you think a motorist who blew through the same stop sign and

hit the

>71-year-old lady would've gotten off at the discretion of the

police

>officer? Very doubtful. That's exactly the kind of statement

that costs

>cyclists all credibility in the whole rights/responsibilities

on the

>road discussion. Our collective response should immediately be

"obey

the

>damn traffic rules if you ride a bike!" not "I bet a car driver

wouldn't

>have been punished."

>

>________________________________

>

>From: Chris Clemow [mailto:ccle-@grpmack.com]

>Sent: Monday, September 12, 2005 10:32 AM

>To: Craig Austin; george.-@pacificorp.com;

ob-@topica.com

>Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] cyclist charged with manslaughter

>

>

>I have often wondered this myself. After checking Oregon law,

I find

>the following definition: "MANSLAUGHTER

>-A person recklessly causes the death of another, or acting

under

>extreme emotional disturbance, causes the death of another, or

acting

>under circumstances when a person reasonably believes the

circumstances

>provide a legal justification or excuse for his conduct

constitutes

>manslaughter."

>

>So... it appears as if there is some discretion of the behalf

of the

law

>enforcement agency/officer. And I certainly believe it is

skewed

toward

>the benefit of motorists.

>

>Chris Clemow

>

> >>> "Schreck, George" <george.-@pacificorp.com>

9/12/2005

11:12:13

>AM >>>

>

>Although I find it appropriate that the cyclist was charged

under the

>circumstances, I get the impression that in some recent

instances where

>cyclists were hit by cars, the motorist was cited only for a

moving

>violation. Is there a double standard here, or am I being too

sensitive

>and are the circumstances different?

>

>More fodder for the chat mill.

>

>________________________________

>

>From: Craig Austin [mailto:aust-@exponent.com]

>Sent: Monday, September 12, 2005 11:01 AM

>To: ob-@topica.com

>Subject: [OBRA Chat] cyclist charged with manslaughter

>

>

>Good lesson for those of us who sometimes disregard stop signs.

>



 http://www.oregonlive.com/newsflash/regional/index.ssf?/base/news-12/11

2

>6539840200950.xml&storylist=orlocal

>

>

>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

>To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

>To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

>To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

>To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

>



 -----------------------------------------------------------------------

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>------

>

>This email is confidential and may be legally privileged.

>

>It is intended solely for the addressee. Access to this email

by anyone

>else, unless expressly approved by the sender or an authorized

>addressee, is unauthorized.

>

>If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying,

>distribution or any action omitted or taken in reliance on it,

is

>prohibited and may be unlawful. If you believe that you have

received

>this email in error, please contact the sender, delete this

e-mail and

>destroy all copies.

>



 =======================================================================

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>======

>

>

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>

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>



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It is intended solely for the addressee. Access to this email by

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==



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To respond to the whole group send to

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cmur-@obra.org To

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Jonathan Maus

Andrew said:

"The point is that if a person in a car had blown through a stop sign and

killed a cyclist, they would have been prosecuted just the same as the

cyclist hitting and killing a person."



I strongly disagree



Here is a very interesting excerpt from a recent article in the San Jose Mercury News. It gives you an idea of what we're up against in the quest for fair and equal treatment:

"prosecutors have filed vehicular manslaughter charges against just four drivers in 25 (bicyclist) deaths - and murder charges against only one driver. In four of the 25 cases, prosecutors declined to file charges, and in one instance they pursued lesser charges than manslaughter. Even when the cyclist is clearly the victim, prosecutors may opt not to bring charges because, they say, jurors tend to sympathize with drivers. They say, `Gosh, I do that all the time,' '' said Peter Lynch, a deputy district attorney in San Mateo County."



http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/12461118.htm   (you might have to register to read it).







--Jonathan

--------------------------

BikePortland.org: To inform and inspire.

http://bikeportland.org

(503) 283-8855

cell (503) 706-8804

Subscribe via email:

http://bikeportland.org/subscribe.php



----- Original Message -----

From: Andrew Beehler

To: ob-@topica.com

Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 10:15 AM

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] cyclist charged with manslaughter





The point is that if a person in a car had blown through a stop sign and

killed a cyclist, they would have been prosecuted just the same as the

cyclist hitting and killing a person.



-----Original Message-----

From: Schreck, George [mailto:george.-@pacificorp.com]

Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 9:32 AM

To: dave_g-@hotmail.com; aust-@exponent.com; ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] cyclist charged with manslaughter



I think you are missing the point. What about the cyclists that have

been killed by careless drivers. Are they not valued by someone as

well? We are not discussing whether the cyclist deserves to be

prosecuted, we are discussing even handed treatment.



-----Original Message-----

From: Dave German [mailto:dave_g-@hotmail.com]

Sent: Monday, September 12, 2005 9:49 PM

To: aust-@exponent.com; ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] cyclist charged with manslaughter



Right-on. Screw the cyclist vs. driver issue. That lady was someone's

mom,

wife, friend grandmother, lover, teacher. That carless bung hole is

getting

what he deserves!





>From: Craig Austin <aust-@exponent.com>

>Reply-To: aust-@exponent.com

>To: ob-@topica.com

>Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] cyclist charged with manslaughter

>Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 12:36:22 -0700

>

>So you think a motorist who blew through the same stop sign and hit the

>71-year-old lady would've gotten off at the discretion of the police

>officer? Very doubtful. That's exactly the kind of statement that costs

>cyclists all credibility in the whole rights/responsibilities on the

>road discussion. Our collective response should immediately be "obey

the

>damn traffic rules if you ride a bike!" not "I bet a car driver

wouldn't

>have been punished."

>

>________________________________

>

>From: Chris Clemow [mailto:ccle-@grpmack.com]

>Sent: Monday, September 12, 2005 10:32 AM

>To: Craig Austin; george.-@pacificorp.com; ob-@topica.com

>Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] cyclist charged with manslaughter

>

>

>I have often wondered this myself. After checking Oregon law, I find

>the following definition: "MANSLAUGHTER

>-A person recklessly causes the death of another, or acting under

>extreme emotional disturbance, causes the death of another, or acting

>under circumstances when a person reasonably believes the circumstances

>provide a legal justification or excuse for his conduct constitutes

>manslaughter."

>

>So... it appears as if there is some discretion of the behalf of the

law

>enforcement agency/officer. And I certainly believe it is skewed

toward

>the benefit of motorists.

>

>Chris Clemow

>

> >>> "Schreck, George" <george.-@pacificorp.com> 9/12/2005

11:12:13

>AM >>>

>

>Although I find it appropriate that the cyclist was charged under the

>circumstances, I get the impression that in some recent instances where

>cyclists were hit by cars, the motorist was cited only for a moving

>violation. Is there a double standard here, or am I being too

sensitive

>and are the circumstances different?

>

>More fodder for the chat mill.

>

>________________________________

>

>From: Craig Austin [mailto:aust-@exponent.com]

>Sent: Monday, September 12, 2005 11:01 AM

>To: ob-@topica.com

>Subject: [OBRA Chat] cyclist charged with manslaughter

>

>

>Good lesson for those of us who sometimes disregard stop signs.

>

>http://www.oregonlive.com/newsflash/regional/index.ssf?/base/news-12/11

2

>6539840200950.xml&storylist=orlocal

>

>

>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

>To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

>To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

>To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

>To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

>

>-----------------------------------------------------------------------

-

>------

>

>This email is confidential and may be legally privileged.

>

>It is intended solely for the addressee. Access to this email by anyone

>else, unless expressly approved by the sender or an authorized

>addressee, is unauthorized.

>

>If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying,

>distribution or any action omitted or taken in reliance on it, is

>prohibited and may be unlawful. If you believe that you have received

>this email in error, please contact the sender, delete this e-mail and

>destroy all copies.

>

>=======================================================================

=

>======

>

>

>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

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Andrew Beehler

The point is that if a person in a car had blown through a stop sign and

killed a cyclist, they would have been prosecuted just the same as the

cyclist hitting and killing a person.



-----Original Message-----

From: Schreck, George [mailto:george.-@pacificorp.com]

Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 9:32 AM

To: dave_g-@hotmail.com; aust-@exponent.com; ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] cyclist charged with manslaughter



I think you are missing the point. What about the cyclists that have

been killed by careless drivers. Are they not valued by someone as

well? We are not discussing whether the cyclist deserves to be

prosecuted, we are discussing even handed treatment.



-----Original Message-----

From: Dave German [mailto:dave_g-@hotmail.com]

Sent: Monday, September 12, 2005 9:49 PM

To: aust-@exponent.com; ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] cyclist charged with manslaughter



Right-on. Screw the cyclist vs. driver issue. That lady was someone's

mom,

wife, friend grandmother, lover, teacher. That carless bung hole is

getting

what he deserves!





 From: Craig Austin <aust-@exponent.com>

Reply-To: aust-@exponent.com

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] cyclist charged with manslaughter

Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 12:36:22 -0700



So you think a motorist who blew through the same stop sign and hit the

71-year-old lady would've gotten off at the discretion of the police

officer? Very doubtful. That's exactly the kind of statement that costs

cyclists all credibility in the whole rights/responsibilities on the

road discussion. Our collective response should immediately be "obey

the

 damn traffic rules if you ride a bike!" not "I bet a car driver

wouldn't

 have been punished."



________________________________



From: Chris Clemow [mailto:ccle-@grpmack.com]

Sent: Monday, September 12, 2005 10:32 AM

To: Craig Austin; george.-@pacificorp.com; ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] cyclist charged with manslaughter





I have often wondered this myself. After checking Oregon law, I find

the following definition: "MANSLAUGHTER

-A person recklessly causes the death of another, or acting under

extreme emotional disturbance, causes the death of another, or acting

under circumstances when a person reasonably believes the circumstances

provide a legal justification or excuse for his conduct constitutes

manslaughter."



So... it appears as if there is some discretion of the behalf of the

law

 enforcement agency/officer. And I certainly believe it is skewed

toward

 the benefit of motorists.



Chris Clemow



   "Schreck, George" <george.-@pacificorp.com> 9/12/2005

11:12:13

 AM >>>



Although I find it appropriate that the cyclist was charged under the

circumstances, I get the impression that in some recent instances where

cyclists were hit by cars, the motorist was cited only for a moving

violation. Is there a double standard here, or am I being too

sensitive

 and are the circumstances different?



More fodder for the chat mill.



________________________________



From: Craig Austin [mailto:aust-@exponent.com]

Sent: Monday, September 12, 2005 11:01 AM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: [OBRA Chat] cyclist charged with manslaughter





Good lesson for those of us who sometimes disregard stop signs.



http://www.oregonlive.com/newsflash/regional/index.ssf?/base/news-12/11

2

 6539840200950.xml&storylist=orlocal





To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

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destroy all copies.



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Schreck, George

I think you are missing the point. What about the cyclists that have

been killed by careless drivers. Are they not valued by someone as

well? We are not discussing whether the cyclist deserves to be

prosecuted, we are discussing even handed treatment.



-----Original Message-----

From: Dave German [mailto:dave_g-@hotmail.com]

Sent: Monday, September 12, 2005 9:49 PM

To: aust-@exponent.com; ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] cyclist charged with manslaughter



Right-on. Screw the cyclist vs. driver issue. That lady was someone's

mom,

wife, friend grandmother, lover, teacher. That carless bung hole is

getting

what he deserves!





 From: Craig Austin <aust-@exponent.com>

Reply-To: aust-@exponent.com

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] cyclist charged with manslaughter

Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 12:36:22 -0700



So you think a motorist who blew through the same stop sign and hit the

71-year-old lady would've gotten off at the discretion of the police

officer? Very doubtful. That's exactly the kind of statement that costs

cyclists all credibility in the whole rights/responsibilities on the

road discussion. Our collective response should immediately be "obey

the

 damn traffic rules if you ride a bike!" not "I bet a car driver

wouldn't

 have been punished."



________________________________



From: Chris Clemow [mailto:ccle-@grpmack.com]

Sent: Monday, September 12, 2005 10:32 AM

To: Craig Austin; george.-@pacificorp.com; ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] cyclist charged with manslaughter





I have often wondered this myself. After checking Oregon law, I find

the following definition: "MANSLAUGHTER

-A person recklessly causes the death of another, or acting under

extreme emotional disturbance, causes the death of another, or acting

under circumstances when a person reasonably believes the circumstances

provide a legal justification or excuse for his conduct constitutes

manslaughter."



So... it appears as if there is some discretion of the behalf of the

law

 enforcement agency/officer. And I certainly believe it is skewed

toward

 the benefit of motorists.



Chris Clemow



   "Schreck, George" <george.-@pacificorp.com> 9/12/2005

11:12:13

 AM >>>



Although I find it appropriate that the cyclist was charged under the

circumstances, I get the impression that in some recent instances where

cyclists were hit by cars, the motorist was cited only for a moving

violation. Is there a double standard here, or am I being too

sensitive

 and are the circumstances different?



More fodder for the chat mill.



________________________________



From: Craig Austin [mailto:aust-@exponent.com]

Sent: Monday, September 12, 2005 11:01 AM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: [OBRA Chat] cyclist charged with manslaughter





Good lesson for those of us who sometimes disregard stop signs.



http://www.oregonlive.com/newsflash/regional/index.ssf?/base/news-12/11

2

 6539840200950.xml&storylist=orlocal





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gary.m-@gmail.com

"That carless bung hole is getting what he deserves! "





That's pretty harsh. I don't think anyone intends to get into an accident in

order to harm someone intentionally. People do stupid things all the time,

this time someone else was killed. Perhaps running the stop sign was one

factor, but let's leave that to the families and the police on the scene.

The lesson is to always be aware and be careful for ourselves and for others

when we're out doing what we love.





--

Gary Malcolm

/\

/ \/\ ........ __o

/\/ \ ---... .. \<,

_/ \_______(_)/(_)

RCJoh-@attglobal.net

My friends, two points on this.



First, I saw a picture of the guy who killed the old lady on the news.

Not to judge by appearances but he sure didn't look the type that rode a

bicycle by choice. Seemed to me this was just another stop on his slide

to the bottom of societys ladder. Manslaughter is a pretty serious

charge and I'll bet this isn't the first brush with the law this

individual has had. Time will tell.

The only beef I have with the issue at this point is the accuseds

portrayal in the media as a cyclist. For sure he is not representative

of us as a group. My suggestion is for us to send polite reminders of

this fact to the media that reports it as such. You may think this

won't work but I can guarantee you it does. I got CNN to change their

manner of reporting references to our fair state on a national profile

news story, along with a respectful thanks from their organization for

my trouble. It does work.



Second, on the broader issue of fairness and equality of justice where

road users are injured I believe there is a definite bias. And it isn't

just us bicyclists that get the short end of the stick, motorcyclists

have been getting the same second class treatment for years as well.

Fortunately for all of us the American Motorcyclist Association is doing

something about it. It's called the Justice For All Campaign and it is

focused to ensure at all road users (cyclists - motorized or not -

pedestrians, etc.) receive fair treatment and those that deserve

punishment receive it. This program is supported by AMA membership dues

and if you feel your interests are not being adequately safeguarded

locally I urge you to consider supporting this organization by

publicizing their efforts, referring them cases and/or financial

contributions. Please visit the following link to learn more:



http://www.amadirectlink.com/justice/whatwerefightingfor.asp



Thanks,

Rick C Johnson

15 year AMA member and lifelong bicyclist







Dave German wrote:



 Right-on. Screw the cyclist vs. driver issue. That lady was

someone's mom, wife, friend grandmother, lover, teacher. That carless

bung hole is getting what he deserves!





 From: Craig Austin <aust-@exponent.com>

Reply-To: aust-@exponent.com

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] cyclist charged with manslaughter

Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 12:36:22 -0700



So you think a motorist who blew through the same stop sign and hit the

71-year-old lady would've gotten off at the discretion of the police

officer? Very doubtful. That's exactly the kind of statement that costs

cyclists all credibility in the whole rights/responsibilities on the

road discussion. Our collective response should immediately be "obey the

damn traffic rules if you ride a bike!" not "I bet a car driver wouldn't

have been punished."



________________________________



From: Chris Clemow [mailto:ccle-@grpmack.com]

Sent: Monday, September 12, 2005 10:32 AM

To: Craig Austin; george.-@pacificorp.com; ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] cyclist charged with manslaughter





I have often wondered this myself. After checking Oregon law, I find

the following definition: "MANSLAUGHTER

-A person recklessly causes the death of another, or acting under

extreme emotional disturbance, causes the death of another, or acting

under circumstances when a person reasonably believes the circumstances

provide a legal justification or excuse for his conduct constitutes

manslaughter."



So... it appears as if there is some discretion of the behalf of the law

enforcement agency/officer. And I certainly believe it is skewed toward

the benefit of motorists.



Chris Clemow



   "Schreck, George" <george.-@pacificorp.com> 9/12/2005 11:12:13

AM >>>



Although I find it appropriate that the cyclist was charged under the

circumstances, I get the impression that in some recent instances where

cyclists were hit by cars, the motorist was cited only for a moving

violation. Is there a double standard here, or am I being too sensitive

and are the circumstances different?



More fodder for the chat mill.



________________________________



From: Craig Austin [mailto:aust-@exponent.com]

Sent: Monday, September 12, 2005 11:01 AM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: [OBRA Chat] cyclist charged with manslaughter





Good lesson for those of us who sometimes disregard stop signs.



http://www.oregonlive.com/newsflash/regional/index.ssf?/base/news-12/112

6539840200950.xml&storylist=orlocal





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Dave German

Right-on. Screw the cyclist vs. driver issue. That lady was someone's mom,

wife, friend grandmother, lover, teacher. That carless bung hole is getting

what he deserves!





 From: Craig Austin <aust-@exponent.com>

Reply-To: aust-@exponent.com

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] cyclist charged with manslaughter

Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 12:36:22 -0700



So you think a motorist who blew through the same stop sign and hit the

71-year-old lady would've gotten off at the discretion of the police

officer? Very doubtful. That's exactly the kind of statement that costs

cyclists all credibility in the whole rights/responsibilities on the

road discussion. Our collective response should immediately be "obey the

damn traffic rules if you ride a bike!" not "I bet a car driver wouldn't

have been punished."



________________________________



From: Chris Clemow [mailto:ccle-@grpmack.com]

Sent: Monday, September 12, 2005 10:32 AM

To: Craig Austin; george.-@pacificorp.com; ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] cyclist charged with manslaughter





I have often wondered this myself. After checking Oregon law, I find

the following definition: "MANSLAUGHTER

-A person recklessly causes the death of another, or acting under

extreme emotional disturbance, causes the death of another, or acting

under circumstances when a person reasonably believes the circumstances

provide a legal justification or excuse for his conduct constitutes

manslaughter."



So... it appears as if there is some discretion of the behalf of the law

enforcement agency/officer. And I certainly believe it is skewed toward

the benefit of motorists.



Chris Clemow



   "Schreck, George" <george.-@pacificorp.com> 9/12/2005 11:12:13

AM >>>



Although I find it appropriate that the cyclist was charged under the

circumstances, I get the impression that in some recent instances where

cyclists were hit by cars, the motorist was cited only for a moving

violation. Is there a double standard here, or am I being too sensitive

and are the circumstances different?



More fodder for the chat mill.



________________________________



From: Craig Austin [mailto:aust-@exponent.com]

Sent: Monday, September 12, 2005 11:01 AM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: [OBRA Chat] cyclist charged with manslaughter





Good lesson for those of us who sometimes disregard stop signs.



http://www.oregonlive.com/newsflash/regional/index.ssf?/base/news-12/112

6539840200950.xml&storylist=orlocal





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news4-@gmail.com

George S. said "Although I find it appropriate that the cyclist was charged

under the circumstances...". I think that counts for "obey the damned

rules". Furthermore, this isn't our collective response - it's a discussion

on a bike organization's newsgroup, intended for the bike community. I think

indignation is certainly within the bounds of fair play.



I agree with you - if a representative of OBRA were to make a statement to

the media (or anybody on cyclist's behalf, for that matter) of the sort that

undermines our credibility, then we have good reasont to be angry. But hey,

it's a free country, and we're all free to speak publicly on the matter any

way we wish. Building credibility comes from good conduct, including

following the laws of the road. The guy who blew the sign did more to damage

our credibility than any email on this group could do. Maintaining integrity

means any soundbite-mongering windbag who purports to speak on our behalf

will be seen for what s/he is.



Jonathan M. brings up a good question. I would like to think a motorist who

blows a stop sign/light and kills a cyclist or pedestrian would be similarly

charged. If there was a case like this lately where manslaughter was not the

charge, I'd love to know the details because I'd have a bone to pick with

the local D.A. Is anybody on this kind of thing regularly? From what I've

seen of the BTA, this might be up their alley, yes?



-Joel





On 9/12/05, Craig Austin <aust-@exponent.com> wrote:

 

So you think a motorist who blew through the same stop sign and hit the

71-year-old lady would've gotten off at the discretion of the police

officer? Very doubtful. That's exactly the kind of statement that costs

cyclists all credibility in the whole rights/responsibilities on the road

discussion. Our collective response should immediately be "obey the damn

traffic rules if you ride a bike!" not "I bet a car driver wouldn't have

been punished."



------------------------------

*From:* Chris Clemow [mailto:ccle-@grpmack.com]

*Sent:* Monday, September 12, 2005 10:32 AM

*To:* Craig Austin; george.-@pacificorp.com; ob-@topica.com

*Subject:* RE: [OBRA Chat] cyclist charged with manslaughter



I have often wondered this myself. After checking Oregon law, I find the

following definition: "*MANSLAUGHTER

*-A person recklessly causes the death of another, or acting under extreme

emotional disturbance, causes the death of another, or acting under

circumstances when a person reasonably believes the circumstances provide a

legal justification or excuse for his conduct constitutes manslaughter."



So... it appears as if there is some discretion of the behalf of the law

enforcement agency/officer. And I certainly believe it is skewed toward the

benefit of motorists.

Chris Clemow



   "Schreck, George" <george.-@pacificorp.com> 9/12/2005 11:12:13

AM >>>

Although I find it appropriate that the cyclist was charged under the

circumstances, I get the impression that in some recent instances where

cyclists were hit by cars, the motorist was cited only for a moving

violation. Is there a double standard here, or am I being too sensitive and

are the circumstances different?

More fodder for the chat mill.



------------------------------

*From:* Craig Austin [mailto:aust-@exponent.com]

*Sent:* Monday, September 12, 2005 11:01 AM

*To:* ob-@topica.com

*Subject:* [OBRA Chat] cyclist charged with manslaughter



Good lesson for those of us who sometimes disregard stop signs.



http://www.oregonlive.com/newsflash/regional/index.ssf?/base/news-12/1126539840200950.xml&storylist=orlocal

   

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------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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--

__o "It never gets easier,

_ \<_ you just go faster."

(_)/(_) -- Greg LeMond

Susan Otcenas

  So you think a motorist who blew through the same stop sign and hit the

71-year-old lady would've gotten off at the discretion of the police

officer? Very doubtful.



Ah, but the REAL question is: Had a MOTORIST blown a stop sign and hit a

CYCLIST, would the driver have been charged with manslaughter? In other

words, is there a double standard? I can't answer that question without

research. I WANT to believe the motorist would be charged. But my gut

tells me that is not happening consistently. My gut tells me that motorists

are charged only when they hit and RUN. Stick around, say the cyclist

behaved erratically, and don't get charged.



Cynical? Who, me?



Susan

Craig Austin

So you think a motorist who blew through the same stop sign and hit the

71-year-old lady would've gotten off at the discretion of the police

officer? Very doubtful. That's exactly the kind of statement that costs

cyclists all credibility in the whole rights/responsibilities on the

road discussion. Our collective response should immediately be "obey the

damn traffic rules if you ride a bike!" not "I bet a car driver wouldn't

have been punished."



________________________________



From: Chris Clemow [mailto:ccle-@grpmack.com]

Sent: Monday, September 12, 2005 10:32 AM

To: Craig Austin; george.-@pacificorp.com; ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] cyclist charged with manslaughter





I have often wondered this myself. After checking Oregon law, I find

the following definition: "MANSLAUGHTER

-A person recklessly causes the death of another, or acting under

extreme emotional disturbance, causes the death of another, or acting

under circumstances when a person reasonably believes the circumstances

provide a legal justification or excuse for his conduct constitutes

manslaughter."



So... it appears as if there is some discretion of the behalf of the law

enforcement agency/officer. And I certainly believe it is skewed toward

the benefit of motorists.



Chris Clemow



   "Schreck, George" <george.-@pacificorp.com> 9/12/2005 11:12:13

AM >>>



Although I find it appropriate that the cyclist was charged under the

circumstances, I get the impression that in some recent instances where

cyclists were hit by cars, the motorist was cited only for a moving

violation. Is there a double standard here, or am I being too sensitive

and are the circumstances different?



More fodder for the chat mill.



________________________________



From: Craig Austin [mailto:aust-@exponent.com]

Sent: Monday, September 12, 2005 11:01 AM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: [OBRA Chat] cyclist charged with manslaughter





Good lesson for those of us who sometimes disregard stop signs.



http://www.oregonlive.com/newsflash/regional/index.ssf?/base/news-12/112

6539840200950.xml&storylist=orlocal





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Jonathan Maus

George,



I don't think you're being too sensitive. Of course we don't know all the details, but of all the bike/car fatalities and serious incidents this summer, has any motorist spent any time behind bars?



I think there is definitely an unfair balance in how law enforcement deals with bikers...no matter what side of the killing they're on. I wish we could launch an independent investigation into how the police deal with these traffic incidents to find out if institutional bias exists.



I posted more here if anyone's interested:

http://bikeportland.org/2005/09/12/cyclist-charged-with-manslaughter/



--Jonathan

--------------------------

BikePortland.org: To inform and inspire.

http://bikeportland.org

(503) 283-8855

cell (503) 706-8804

Subscribe via email:

http://bikeportland.org/subscribe.php





----- Original Message -----

From: Schreck, George

To: aust-@exponent.com ; ob-@topica.com

Sent: Monday, September 12, 2005 11:12 AM

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] cyclist charged with manslaughter





Although I find it appropriate that the cyclist was charged under the circumstances, I get the impression that in some recent instances where cyclists were hit by cars, the motorist was cited only for a moving violation. Is there a double standard here, or am I being too sensitive and are the circumstances different?



More fodder for the chat mill.







------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Craig Austin [mailto:aust-@exponent.com]

Sent: Monday, September 12, 2005 11:01 AM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: [OBRA Chat] cyclist charged with manslaughter





Good lesson for those of us who sometimes disregard stop signs.



http://www.oregonlive.com/newsflash/regional/index.ssf?/base/news-12/1126539840200950.xml&storylist=orlocal





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This email is confidential and may be legally privileged.



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==============================================================================

Chris Clemow

I have often wondered this myself. After checking Oregon law, I find

the following definition: "MANSLAUGHTER

-A person recklessly causes the death of another, or acting under

extreme emotional disturbance, causes the death of another, or acting

under circumstances when a person reasonably believes the circumstances

provide a legal justification or excuse for his conduct constitutes

manslaughter."



So... it appears as if there is some discretion of the behalf of the

law enforcement agency/officer. And I certainly believe it is skewed

toward the benefit of motorists.



Chris Clemow



   "Schreck, George" <george.-@pacificorp.com> 9/12/2005

11:12:13 AM >>>



Although I find it appropriate that the cyclist was charged under the

circumstances, I get the impression that in some recent instances where

cyclists were hit by cars, the motorist was cited only for a moving

violation. Is there a double standard here, or am I being too sensitive

and are the circumstances different?



More fodder for the chat mill.





From: Craig Austin [mailto:aust-@exponent.com]

Sent: Monday, September 12, 2005 11:01 AM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: [OBRA Chat] cyclist charged with manslaughter







Good lesson for those of us who sometimes disregard stop signs.



http://www.oregonlive.com/newsflash/regional/index.ssf?/base/news-12/1126539840200950.xml&storylist=orlocal





To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.To respond to the

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==============================================================================

Schreck, George

Although I find it appropriate that the cyclist was charged under the

circumstances, I get the impression that in some recent instances where

cyclists were hit by cars, the motorist was cited only for a moving

violation. Is there a double standard here, or am I being too sensitive

and are the circumstances different?



More fodder for the chat mill.



________________________________



From: Craig Austin [mailto:aust-@exponent.com]

Sent: Monday, September 12, 2005 11:01 AM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: [OBRA Chat] cyclist charged with manslaughter





Good lesson for those of us who sometimes disregard stop signs.



http://www.oregonlive.com/newsflash/regional/index.ssf?/base/news-12/112

6539840200950.xml&storylist=orlocal





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Craig Austin

Good lesson for those of us who sometimes disregard stop signs.



http://www.oregonlive.com/newsflash/regional/index.ssf?/base/news-12/112

6539840200950.xml&storylist=orlocal