OBRA: OBRA Chat: cyclist kills pedestrian......

Brian Engelen

2005-09-15

I think it has something to do with "freedom".

Brian

-----Original Message-----

From: Cp53-@aol.com [mailto:Cp53-@aol.com]

Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 12:29 PM

To: ragg-@yahoo.com; ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] cyclist kills pedestrian......

Ok thanks. But, my objective was not to get the OBRA group together and

think of all the "vehicles" besides cars there are.

It was to ask how it is that they can hold you accountable to laws of

operating a vehicle when you have not taken a test or carry a license for

it?

You can't just get into a car and start driving. Why can you on a bike,

scooter, skateboard, farm tractor, etc...

Does anybody know how this is?

-----Original Message-----

From: Randy Dreiling <ragg-@yahoo.com>

To: Cp53-@aol.com; ob-@topica.com

Sent: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 12:15:15 -0700 (PDT)

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] cyclist kills pedestrian......

Some motorized Scooters do not require to have one

--- Cp53-@aol.com <mailto:Cp53x11%40aol.com> wrote:

IS actually expected of a cyclist amongst cars and

otherwise if we had our own version of the drivers

manual. The one you get at the DMV aimed at

cyclists has some kind of disclaimer in the front

saying that "this is not the law, blah blah blah"

My point is that it all seems very muddy at best as

to what is expected of us.

I doubt if it would help the credibilty of us in the

eyes of drivers who think we all have a death wish,

but... it might with some. Who knows.

Any thoughts on this?

To respond to the whole group send to

ob-@topica.com <mailto:obra%40topica.com> .

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Robert Nobles

2005-09-15

This is a slipery slope. When will we NOT need a license or insurance eventually?

Bikes rarely kill people. Guns, drugs and cars kill people regulary (as in tens of thousands per year in the USA alone). Therefore, they need to be regulated with much more care because of the risk death.

When it comes to insurance, it is required of motor vehicles because they cause so much damage. Bikes don't often cause a year's salary worth of damage in a single accident, cars do.

Cp53-@aol.com wrote:

Hey Folks,

All the talk lately about the girls killing the cyclist and the cyclist in Corvallis running the stop sign and killing the woman has got me thinking.......

Maybe some of the legal two-wheelers can help clarify this, but how is it that the State can require cyclists to obey all these laws that have been set down (since a bicycle is recognized as a vehicle by law) yet an operator of a bicycle is the only vehicle operator (that I can think of) that is not required by law to have a license saying they have passed a state test acknowledging that said operator understands what the laws are-yet are still held accountable?

Are there any other "vehicles" that are legal to operate without a license?

Any of the BTA folks know if there is any possibility of cyclists being required to carry a license in the works?

I, personally, would support cyclists getting licensed. It would make things alot clearer to what IS actually expected of a cyclist amongst cars and otherwise if we had our own version of the drivers manual. The one you get at the DMV aimed at cyclists has some kind of disclaimer in the front saying that "this is not the law, blah blah blah"

My point is that it all seems very muddy at best as to what is expected of us.

I doubt if it would help the credibilty of us in the eyes of drivers who think we all have a death wish, but... it might with some. Who knows.

Any thoughts on this?

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.orgTo unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

Robert W Nobles

rwno-@yahoo.com

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RCJoh-@attglobal.net

2005-09-15

The point is do we need licenses and increased regulation to enforce

laws? We manage to enforce laws against sex crimes without a sex

license, murder without a life license, theft without a property

license...

Licenses and law enforcement, or even civil behavior, are not linked.

But licenses do require fees and regulations will always multiply. You

are asking us to open the door to increased costs and burdensome

regulation to what end? Will it be a magic bubble surrounding me when I

ride? Will the drunkard that's lost his drivers license suddenly start

following the rules because now he's on a bicycle?

I hardly think so. People with valid drivers licenses still speed and

run stop signs. The license doesn't change that.

So to answer you question directly, maybe the law is the way it is

because it's not really all about absolute protection. Perhaps you

should consider it's more about control. People piloting multi-ton metal

objects moving upwards of 110 feet per second need to be more controlled

than others of less mass and velocity.

Rick

"Few things are brought to a successful issue by impetuous desire, but

most by calm and prudent forethought."

Napoleon Bonaparte, Emperor of France. 1769-1821

cp53-@aol.com wrote:

Ok thanks. But, my objective was not to get the OBRA group together and

think of all the "vehicles" besides cars there are.

It was to ask how it is that they can hold you accountable to laws of

operating a vehicle when you have not taken a test or carry a license

for it?

You can't just get into a car and start driving. Why can you on a bike,

scooter, skateboard, farm tractor, etc...

Does anybody know how this is?

-----Original Message-----

From: Randy Dreiling <ragg-@yahoo.com>

To: Cp53-@aol.com; ob-@topica.com

Sent: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 12:15:15 -0700 (PDT)

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] cyclist kills pedestrian......

Some motorized Scooters do not require to have one

--- Cp53-@aol.com wrote:

IS actually expected of a cyclist amongst cars and

otherwise if we had our own version of the drivers

manual. The one you get at the DMV aimed at

cyclists has some kind of disclaimer in the front

saying that "this is not the law, blah blah blah"

My point is that it all seems very muddy at best as

to what is expected of us.

I doubt if it would help the credibilty of us in the

eyes of drivers who think we all have a death wish,

but... it might with some. Who knows.

Any thoughts on this?

To respond to the whole group send to

ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to

cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

__________________________________

Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005

http://mail.yahoo.com

Peter Murphy

2005-09-15

engines less than 50ccs otherwise they need a motorcycle sticker

Pete Murphy

If you wanted to get somewhere and it took you

a long time to get there, would you wanna rush back here?

I didn't think so....Frank Black

From: Randy Dreiling <ragg-@yahoo.com>

Reply-To: ragg-@yahoo.com

To: Cp53-@aol.com, ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] cyclist kills pedestrian......

Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 12:15:15 -0700 (PDT)

Some motorized Scooters do not require to have one

--- Cp53-@aol.com wrote:

IS actually expected of a cyclist amongst cars and

otherwise if we had our own version of the drivers

manual. The one you get at the DMV aimed at

cyclists has some kind of disclaimer in the front

saying that "this is not the law, blah blah blah"

My point is that it all seems very muddy at best as

to what is expected of us.

I doubt if it would help the credibilty of us in the

eyes of drivers who think we all have a death wish,

but... it might with some. Who knows.

Any thoughts on this?

To respond to the whole group send to

ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to

cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

__________________________________

Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005

http://mail.yahoo.com

cp53-@aol.com

2005-09-15

Ok thanks. But, my objective was not to get the OBRA group together and think of all the "vehicles" besides cars there are.

It was to ask how it is that they can hold you accountable to laws of operating a vehicle when you have not taken a test or carry a license for it?

You can't just get into a car and start driving. Why can you on a bike, scooter, skateboard, farm tractor, etc...

Does anybody know how this is?

-----Original Message-----

From: Randy Dreiling <ragg-@yahoo.com>

To: Cp53-@aol.com; ob-@topica.com

Sent: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 12:15:15 -0700 (PDT)

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] cyclist kills pedestrian......

Some motorized Scooters do not require to have one

--- Cp53-@aol.com wrote:

IS actually expected of a cyclist amongst cars and

otherwise if we had our own version of the drivers

manual. The one you get at the DMV aimed at

cyclists has some kind of disclaimer in the front

saying that "this is not the law, blah blah blah"

My point is that it all seems very muddy at best as

to what is expected of us.

I doubt if it would help the credibilty of us in the

eyes of drivers who think we all have a death wish,

but... it might with some. Who knows.

Any thoughts on this?

To respond to the whole group send to

ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to

cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

__________________________________

Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005

http://mail.yahoo.com

G Magnus

2005-09-15

801.590 ?Vehicle.? ?Vehicle? means any device in, upon or by which any person or property is or may be transported or drawn upon a public highway and includes vehicles that are propelled or powered by any means. [1983 c.338 ?109]

Many of the vehicle laws in Oregon pertain to vehicles not specifically motor vehicles. Thus many people operate vehicles on a daily basis on Oregon roadways without licenses: I.E. bicycles, skateboards, horse drawn buggies etc. etc.....you name it if it can haul a person or property its a vehicle.

~Gregg Magnus

From: Cp53-@aol.comReply-To: Cp53-@aol.comTo: ob-@topica.comSubject: [OBRA Chat] cyclist kills pedestrian......Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 13:57:05 -0400

Hey Folks,

All the talk lately about the girls killing the cyclist and the cyclist in Corvallis running the stop sign and killing the woman has got me thinking.......

Maybe some of the legal two-wheelers can help clarify this, but how is it that the State can require cyclists to obey all these laws that have been set down (since a bicycle is recognized as a vehicle by law) yet an operator of a bicycle is the only vehicle operator (that I can think of) that is not required by law to have a license saying they have passed a state test acknowledging that said operator understands what the laws are-yet are still held accountable?

Are there any other "vehicles" that are legal to operate without a license?

Any of the BTA folks know if there is any possibility of cyclists being required to carry a license in the works?

I, personally, would support cyclists getting licensed. It would make things alot clearer to what IS actually expected of a cyclist amongst cars and otherwise if we had our own version of the drivers manual. The one you get at the DMV aimed at cyclists has some kind of disclaimer in the front saying that "this is not the law, blah blah blah"

My point is that it all seems very muddy at best as to what is expected of us.

I doubt if it would help the credibilty of us in the eyes of drivers who think we all have a death wish, but... it might with some. Who knows.

Any thoughts on this?

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com 3 FREE months of MSN Dial-up Internet service. Click for full details and to sign-up now!

Randy Dreiling

2005-09-15

Some motorized Scooters do not require to have one

--- Cp53-@aol.com wrote:

IS actually expected of a cyclist amongst cars and

otherwise if we had our own version of the drivers

manual. The one you get at the DMV aimed at

cyclists has some kind of disclaimer in the front

saying that "this is not the law, blah blah blah"

My point is that it all seems very muddy at best as

to what is expected of us.

I doubt if it would help the credibilty of us in the

eyes of drivers who think we all have a death wish,

but... it might with some. Who knows.

Any thoughts on this?

To respond to the whole group send to

ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to

cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

__________________________________

Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005

http://mail.yahoo.com

RCJoh-@attglobal.net

2005-09-15

To begin with there are instances where vehicles can be operated by

unlicensed drivers - farm equipment and OHVs (off highway vehicles) to

name a couple. Each has requirements and/or restrictions related to

operation on public roadways. Unlicensed bicycle operation is not

unique.

Before you get too cozy with the idea of a bicycle operator license

consider the practicalities of fees, testing, enforcement, etc. I can

easily see the negatives outweighing the benefits once it becomes part

of a bureaucracy. And you can bet there are people who would jump at

this opportunity to impose road taxes for bicycles. Maybe insurance

requirements as well.

Do we really want all that? I'd rather see better rider education,

starting in grade school and going up from there. We can accomplish a

lot from within...

Rick

"In politics, stupidity is not a handicap"

Napoleon Bonaparte, Emperor of France. 1769-1821

cp53-@aol.com wrote:

Hey Folks,

All the talk lately about the girls killing the cyclist and the cyclist

in Corvallis running the stop sign and killing the woman has got me

thinking.......

Maybe some of the legal two-wheelers can help clarify this, but how is

it that the State can require cyclists to obey all these laws that have

been set down (since a bicycle is recognized as a vehicle by law) yet an

operator of a bicycle is the only vehicle operator (that I can think of)

that is not required by law to have a license saying they have passed a

state test acknowledging that said operator understands what the laws

are-yet are still held accountable?

Are there any other "vehicles" that are legal to operate without a

license?

Any of the BTA folks know if there is any possibility of cyclists being

required to carry a license in the works?

I, personally, would support cyclists getting licensed. It would make

things alot clearer to what IS actually expected of a cyclist amongst

cars and otherwise if we had our own version of the drivers manual. The

one you get at the DMV aimed at cyclists has some kind of disclaimer in

the front saying that "this is not the law, blah blah blah"

My point is that it all seems very muddy at best as to what is expected

of us.

I doubt if it would help the credibilty of us in the eyes of drivers who

think we all have a death wish, but... it might with some. Who knows.

Any thoughts on this?

cp53-@aol.com

2005-09-15

Hey Folks,

All the talk lately about the girls killing the cyclist and the cyclist in Corvallis running the stop sign and killing the woman has got me thinking.......

Maybe some of the legal two-wheelers can help clarify this, but how is it that the State can require cyclists to obey all these laws that have been set down (since a bicycle is recognized as a vehicle by law) yet an operator of a bicycle is the only vehicle operator (that I can think of) that is not required by law to have a license saying they have passed a state test acknowledging that said operator understands what the laws are-yet are still held accountable?

Are there any other "vehicles" that are legal to operate without a license?

Any of the BTA folks know if there is any possibility of cyclists being required to carry a license in the works?

I, personally, would support cyclists getting licensed. It would make things alot clearer to what IS actually expected of a cyclist amongst cars and otherwise if we had our own version of the drivers manual. The one you get at the DMV aimed at cyclists has some kind of disclaimer in the front saying that "this is not the law, blah blah blah"

My point is that it all seems very muddy at best as to what is expected of us.

I doubt if it would help the credibilty of us in the eyes of drivers who think we all have a death wish, but... it might with some. Who knows.

Any thoughts on this?