FW: Bike lanes & right of way

Peter Gierga

2005-10-11



All I can say is if your ridding in traffic and dont want to die. Pretend no

one sees you.

                                    Peter





 From: john schmidt <twotireti-@yahoo.com>

Reply-To: twotireti-@yahoo.com

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] FW: Bike lanes & right of way

Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 00:42:42 +0000



Hmmm...



 ...number of stupid cyclists I see. Probably not anyone

who is on this list, but the people without helmets,



There is evidence that when people wear helmets, they aren't as careful

and are more likely to be in an accident.   So I usually wear one but

pretend I am not, its much more important ride smartly. Helmets are

mainly just to hold your brain together after the accident.   Ok Ok I

know helmet will save you from a more serious injury in a minor

accidents, but just because someone isn't wearing a helmet doesn't mean

they are stupid.



 riding on very busy streets (no bike lane)



Why is this dangerous? Just because a street is busy does not make it

dangerous. My experience is that a bike lane adds danger over say just

having a shoulder or a wider road ! Why ? Well its the reason for this

whole thread !



Without a bike lane, it's simple. To turn right, car moves right,

everyone, including bicycles, pass to left of car. NO CONFUSION ! I

personally would like to have the bike lanes be right turning lanes for

cars that need to turn right and that bicycles always pass on the left.

(But yeah I know that will never happen.) Keep the flow going! If

traffic doesn't have to slow or stop, it won't be in the way.



 bicyclist is listening to an IPod. I almost feel like

they deserve to get hit.



Ok I definitely agree here. All senses need to be used. Head on a

swivel. I never miss anything. Why ? Cause its my life on the line.



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JOHN FORBES

2005-10-11

Helmets are far more than just a way to hold you brain together after an accident. After two race related accidents this year I've ended up with two broken helmets. When I look at the damage to both I know without the helmet I'd have badly injured myself. In both cases I didn't even have a headache. A couple of broken ribs and serious road rash but no damage to my head. Too bad there aren't helmets for the body...

John Forbes

2126 NE 12th Ave.

Portland, OR 97212

503-331-6658

----- Original Message -----

From: john schmidt<mailto:twotireti-@yahoo.com>

To: ob-@topica.com<mailto:ob-@topica.com>

Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2005 5:42 PM

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] FW: Bike lanes & right of way





Hmmm...



> ...number of stupid cyclists I see. Probably not anyone

> who is on this list, but the people without helmets,



There is evidence that when people wear helmets, they aren't as careful

and are more likely to be in an accident.   So I usually wear one but

pretend I am not, its much more important ride smartly. Helmets are

mainly just to hold your brain together after the accident.   Ok Ok I

know helmet will save you from a more serious injury in a minor

accidents, but just because someone isn't wearing a helmet doesn't mean

they are stupid.



> riding on very busy streets (no bike lane)



Why is this dangerous? Just because a street is busy does not make it

dangerous. My experience is that a bike lane adds danger over say just

having a shoulder or a wider road ! Why ? Well its the reason for this

whole thread !   



Without a bike lane, it's simple. To turn right, car moves right,

everyone, including bicycles, pass to left of car. NO CONFUSION ! I

personally would like to have the bike lanes be right turning lanes for

cars that need to turn right and that bicycles always pass on the left.

(But yeah I know that will never happen.) Keep the flow going! If

traffic doesn't have to slow or stop, it won't be in the way.    



> bicyclist is listening to an IPod. I almost feel like

> they deserve to get hit.



Ok I definitely agree here. All senses need to be used. Head on a

swivel. I never miss anything. Why ? Cause its my life on the line.



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com<mailto:ob-@topica.com>.

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.David.Auker.

2005-10-11



john schmidt wrote:



 Without a bike lane, it's simple. To turn right, car moves right,

everyone, including bicycles, pass to left of car. NO CONFUSION ! I

personally would like to have the bike lanes be right turning lanes for

cars that need to turn right and that bicycles always pass on the left.

(But yeah I know that will never happen.) Keep the flow going! If

traffic doesn't have to slow or stop, it won't be in the way.



~~~~Yes, it's best to get out of that right lane early. Example of how

not to do it: Hawthorne Bridge bike lane, eastbound, east end, where the

right lane goes to MLK. Most cyclist aren't going to take that exit,

but go straight up Hawthorne. The way the bike lane is, you have to

"almost" do the exit, but at the last moment get across an exit lane.

Not good...blue lane notwithstanding.



~~~~David



john schmidt

2005-10-11



Hmmm...



 ...number of stupid cyclists I see. Probably not anyone

who is on this list, but the people without helmets,



There is evidence that when people wear helmets, they aren't as careful

and are more likely to be in an accident.   So I usually wear one but

pretend I am not, its much more important ride smartly. Helmets are

mainly just to hold your brain together after the accident.   Ok Ok I

know helmet will save you from a more serious injury in a minor

accidents, but just because someone isn't wearing a helmet doesn't mean

they are stupid.



 riding on very busy streets (no bike lane)



Why is this dangerous? Just because a street is busy does not make it

dangerous. My experience is that a bike lane adds danger over say just

having a shoulder or a wider road ! Why ? Well its the reason for this

whole thread !   



Without a bike lane, it's simple. To turn right, car moves right,

everyone, including bicycles, pass to left of car. NO CONFUSION ! I

personally would like to have the bike lanes be right turning lanes for

cars that need to turn right and that bicycles always pass on the left.

(But yeah I know that will never happen.) Keep the flow going! If

traffic doesn't have to slow or stop, it won't be in the way.    



 bicyclist is listening to an IPod. I almost feel like

they deserve to get hit.



Ok I definitely agree here. All senses need to be used. Head on a

swivel. I never miss anything. Why ? Cause its my life on the line.





Thanks to everyone who responded. I got exactly the

responses I expected plus learned a few things. I

actually commute by bicycle every day and have done so

for 16 years. The reason this came up is a friend

recently got into this situation but was the

driver....



I am a firm believer it is important for every

bicyclist to make sure cars know exactly where you are

and what you are doing. I have had my fair share of

car/bike incidents but they have been luckily only

minor.



The only thing I feel like I can add to this

discussion, that has not already been said, has to do

with eye's. The eye's always tell you what the driver

is thinking. If for some reason I get caught next to

a driver as I enter an intersection I am always

looking at their face and eyes. They may not turn

around to see you but they will give away their

intention to turn. Just in general I always try and

look into a drivers eyes. My thought is, if they look

right at me and acknowledge my existence, then I am

generally safe.



I will say one thing that does bug me a lot is the

number of stupid cyclists I see. Probably not anyone

who is on this list, but the people without helmets,

riding on very busy streets (no bike lane) as the

bicyclist is listening to an IPod. I almost feel like

they deserve to get hit. Not really, but they just

make me want to stop and school them. Enough

ranting...



Thanks again to all.   



--- Evan MacKenzie <eva-@ci.hillsboro.or.us> wrote:



 My experience is this:







I expect every car to turn right, whether they are

signaling or not.

When approaching an intersection, a make sure I am

either fully in front

of a car that might turn, so they see me, or fully

behind it so I can

slow down behind it or pass it on the left as it is

turning.







When I lived on the eastside and came into downtown

every day over the

Broadway bridge, I would often leave the bike lane

as I approached the

entrance to I-5N, and merge not with the right-hand

turn-only lane but

go all the way over to the lane that could turn or

go straight (assuming

I was able to keep up with the traffic). This may

sound crazy, but it

pretty much guaranteed that I would not end up

plastered on someone's

door. That didn't prevent me from landing on some

lady's hood one

morning a couple blocks before that, however. Nor

did it prevent me from

getting hit not once, but twice where the I-5 N exit

merges onto

Weidler.







A friend of mine once said giving a person a car is

like giving them

alcohol.



Law don't mean sh^*(&! when you're dead.











-Evan







Evan MacKenzie



Urban Planner I



City of Hillsboro



150 E. Main Street, 4th floor



Hillsboro, OR 97123



503-681-6154



eva-@ci.hillsboro.or.us

<mailto:eva-@ci.hillsboro.or.us>



http://www.ci.hillsboro.or.us/Planning_Department/

<http://www.ci.hillsboro.or.us/Planning_Department/>













------------- __o

---------- _ '\<,_

----------(_)/ (_)______Get on your bikes and ride!







________________________________



From: Cp53-@aol.com [mailto:Cp53-@aol.com]

Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2005 11:59 AM

To: RCJoh-@attglobal.net; ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Bike lanes & right of way







I agree that the best defense is assuming that

nobody in a car is

looking out for me or knows or cares what the rules

are. And I haven't

had an accident in many years for that reason, I

believe.



But, just because somebody signals doesn't

automatically mean they get

to turn right away. When it's between two cars, you

put your turn

signal on (that's to let everybody else know what

your intention is)

then you look over your shoulder (to make sure all

is clear and nothing

is in your blind spot-which you almost never see)

and THEN you make the

turn. If you change lanes and a car is there and

you hit it, aren't you

at fault?



Does the same rules not apply to the situation we're

talking about here?



Again, I agree that staying out of the way is

best-everybody is in a

hurry to get in line at the red light or the on

ramp. It's better to be

happy than to be right sometimes.





-----Original Message-----

From: RCJoh-@attglobal.net

To: ob-@topica.com

Sent: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 18:29:22 +0000

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Bike lanes & right of way



I have actually collided with a minivan in exactly

that scenario. The



collision was the resut of one other factor, sun

shining directly into



the minivan's taillight obscuring any indication or

braking or turning.





One minute I'm pacing traffic about to enter an

intersection the next



thing I know everybody's slowing down and there's a

minivan directly



across my path. I wasn't able to stop quickly

enough and a collision



resulted.



During my subsequent review of the situation I could

find no indication



where either party violated a right of way. Bike

lanes don't exist in



intersections (my understanding), I was riding with

traffic in a normal



manner and the van was making a legal turn. The

Oregon DMV advises



cyclists to be exceptionally cautious when passing

othere vehicles on



the right, though it is not prohibited. Regardless,

I was not intending





to pass anyway, just to establish my position in the

flow of traffic in



order to get safely through the intersection.



So, we both lost. I had to rebuild a front wheel

and was off my bike



for three months with a torn shoulder ACL. The

minivan needed about



$750 worth of bodywork repair.



The bottom line is that it was truly an accident. I

try to be even more





cautious now and avoid those types of intersection

whenever possible.







Rick











Tom wrote:



 


 Well here is a topic that will probably get beat

to death, but I have

a

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Evan MacKenzie

2005-10-11

My experience is this:







I expect every car to turn right, whether they are signaling or not.

When approaching an intersection, a make sure I am either fully in front

of a car that might turn, so they see me, or fully behind it so I can

slow down behind it or pass it on the left as it is turning.







When I lived on the eastside and came into downtown every day over the

Broadway bridge, I would often leave the bike lane as I approached the

entrance to I-5N, and merge not with the right-hand turn-only lane but

go all the way over to the lane that could turn or go straight (assuming

I was able to keep up with the traffic). This may sound crazy, but it

pretty much guaranteed that I would not end up plastered on someone's

door. That didn't prevent me from landing on some lady's hood one

morning a couple blocks before that, however. Nor did it prevent me from

getting hit not once, but twice where the I-5 N exit merges onto

Weidler.







A friend of mine once said giving a person a car is like giving them

alcohol.



Law don't mean sh^*(&! when you're dead.











-Evan







Evan MacKenzie



Urban Planner I



City of Hillsboro



150 E. Main Street, 4th floor



Hillsboro, OR 97123



503-681-6154



eva-@ci.hillsboro.or.us <mailto:eva-@ci.hillsboro.or.us>



http://www.ci.hillsboro.or.us/Planning_Department/

<http://www.ci.hillsboro.or.us/Planning_Department/>











------------- __o

---------- _ '\<,_

----------(_)/ (_)______Get on your bikes and ride!







________________________________



From: Cp53-@aol.com [mailto:Cp53-@aol.com]

Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2005 11:59 AM

To: RCJoh-@attglobal.net; ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Bike lanes & right of way







I agree that the best defense is assuming that nobody in a car is

looking out for me or knows or cares what the rules are. And I haven't

had an accident in many years for that reason, I believe.



But, just because somebody signals doesn't automatically mean they get

to turn right away. When it's between two cars, you put your turn

signal on (that's to let everybody else know what your intention is)

then you look over your shoulder (to make sure all is clear and nothing

is in your blind spot-which you almost never see) and THEN you make the

turn. If you change lanes and a car is there and you hit it, aren't you

at fault?



Does the same rules not apply to the situation we're talking about here?



Again, I agree that staying out of the way is best-everybody is in a

hurry to get in line at the red light or the on ramp. It's better to be

happy than to be right sometimes.





-----Original Message-----

From: RCJoh-@attglobal.net

To: ob-@topica.com

Sent: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 18:29:22 +0000

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Bike lanes & right of way



I have actually collided with a minivan in exactly that scenario. The



collision was the resut of one other factor, sun shining directly into



the minivan's taillight obscuring any indication or braking or turning.





One minute I'm pacing traffic about to enter an intersection the next



thing I know everybody's slowing down and there's a minivan directly



across my path. I wasn't able to stop quickly enough and a collision



resulted.



During my subsequent review of the situation I could find no indication



where either party violated a right of way. Bike lanes don't exist in



intersections (my understanding), I was riding with traffic in a normal



manner and the van was making a legal turn. The Oregon DMV advises



cyclists to be exceptionally cautious when passing othere vehicles on



the right, though it is not prohibited. Regardless, I was not intending





to pass anyway, just to establish my position in the flow of traffic in



order to get safely through the intersection.



So, we both lost. I had to rebuild a front wheel and was off my bike



for three months with a torn shoulder ACL. The minivan needed about



$750 worth of bodywork repair.



The bottom line is that it was truly an accident. I try to be even more





cautious now and avoid those types of intersection whenever possible.







Rick











Tom wrote:



 


 Well here is a topic that will probably get beat to death, but I have

a



 scenario to throw out and get the educated riders opinion.



 


 You, as a cyclist are approaching an intersection while riding in a

bike



 


 lane. The bike lane continues on the other side of the intersection.





 There is a car in the traffic lane next to you that is turning right.





 Here is where some variables kick in, but lets leave those out (I

don't



 know them). If the bike rider hits the side of the car as they are



 turning right (in front of you), who is at fault?



 


 We have all had similar situations to this, so I am sure there will be

a



 


 lot of opinions.



 


 


 Tom







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