OBRA: OBRA Chat: Chip Timing/scoring

Chip Timing/scoring

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mike.m-@obra.org

2005-12-09

In response:

Stephen Hemminger [mailto:stephen.h-@gmail.com] "Has anyone made a

system using cheap RFID? The transponders are so small, they could be sewn

into the numbers."

To my knowledge no. The few companies that make these systems are bright

enough to realize that the market for such systems is small enough that they

are unlikely to profit from selling the systems and, instead, look to profit

from using proprietary, as opposed to off-the-shelf, chips. I know of at

least a couple attempts to make essentially home made systems using

non-proprietary chips. So far these attempts have not produced results.

Rick C Johnson [mailto:RCJoh-@attglobal.net] "Has the supplier of the

chips been asked to quote a volume price?"

I have in the past but not recently. The $86 price I quoted is the current

price for a single chip from AMB. I am sure that there would be a volume

discount but, at least from my point of view, it would not be practical

until the price is below at least $10 each. Although it is possible to get

RFID chips below that price it is not possible to get the proprietary chips

used by existing system that low.

"This technology is still early in it's life."

Definitely. It is possible, although yet to be realized, that there will be

a system developed that will meet our needs and then we should consider

purchase. Until that time it makes more sense for the few races that see

benefit in using the system to contract with a timing company to provide it.

If and when the price comes down then more races will see benefit and it

would be reasonable to consider OBRA going into this line of business.

Whether the price comes down or not depends on the size of the market for

purchase of such systems. This is fairly small if timing of bike races or

even sports events in general is the only use. If we could use a system

that was developed for other uses which have a wider market then the costs

might be a lot lower. In fact, it may be that OBRA's first use for RFID

technology will not be for timing but will be for inventory of equipment.

Many businesses need to track inventory. It is likely that there will soon

be a system that will allow us to put an RFID chip on all of the race

equipment and then do an inventory by turning on a detection device.

Potentially such a system could alert when the packed truck leaving a race

is missing items that was brought to a race. Checking equipment in and out

to the race organizers would be easier and more accurately quantifiable.

This would save considerably in terms of time spent doing inventory and lost

equipment.

"The RFID is all relatively cheap. It's really the cost of the related

system - antennas, processing hardware/software, etc. that drives the price.

Kind of like the inkjet printer market - they sell you hardware based on

features and price (sometimes even at cost) and then bleed you dry for model

specific cartridges for ever after. That is what is happening here."

Correct. Chips can be cheap but if you sell them cheap then you have to

make money by selling the more expensive to produce and more limited numbers

of systems. I expect that $1 in profit on the chips equates to several

thousand in profit on the system.

Mike Murray

Schreck, George

2005-12-08

I really do not see the point of the expense and effort unless it makes

the tasks easier for the officials or leads to greater accuracy. At

this point, I do not see that either those rationales exist according to

the officials.

If the technology keeps improving, I suggest we let others experiment

and wait until there is sufficient reliability to warrant the expense

and effort. I see no reason for OBRA to be on the bleeding edge of

technology.

-----Original Message-----

From: Stephen Hemminger [mailto:stephen.h-@gmail.com]

Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 8:03 AM

To: mike.m-@obra.org

Cc: ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Chip Timing/scoring

Has anyone made a system using cheap RFID?

The transponders are so small, they could be sewn into the numbers.

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RCJoh-@attglobal.net

2005-12-08

The RFID is all relatively cheap. It's really the cost of the related

system - antennas, processing hardware/software, etc. that drives the

price. Kind of like the inkjet printer market - they sell you hardware

based on features and price (sometimes even at cost) and then bleed you

dry for model specific cartridges for ever after. That is what is

happening here.

Certainly there is no end of options for ways to use the transponders -

once the detection range has improved enough. That is currently one of

the limits. But as that gets better the transponder could be anywhere -

your number, helmet or even in your OBRA card.

Rick

Stephen Hemminger wrote:

Has anyone made a system using cheap RFID?

The transponders are so small, they could be sewn into the numbers.

Stephen Hemminger

2005-12-08

Has anyone made a system using cheap RFID?

The transponders are so small, they could be sewn into the numbers.

RCJoh-@attglobal.net

2005-12-08

Mike,

I've been following this thread to see if some consensus develops as to

whether or not the "chip timing" (aka RFID) system is a good direction

for the organization to go in. The reason I speak up now is that I

think the discussion is been distracted by short term considerations

and overlooking the long view. By that I specifically mean the cost of

the chips and the overall future of RFID technology. RFID for timing

and scoring systems is something I have recently studied as part of a

electronic timing product redesign. With that in mind I'd like to

raise a couple points.

1) Chip cost: Has the supplier of the chips been asked to quote a

volume price? Going by some of the numbers I've seen sighted there

should be significant room to bring that price down. And if they truly

aren't willing to budge on that then I have to quote an old family

business maxim: "Exorbitant pricing breeds ruinous competition." Those

type of chips can be duplicated for a fraction of $86, and in the

volumes OBRA might need it is very likely that making our own is worth

looking into.

2) RFIDs future: This technology is still early in it's life. It's

almost a universal characteristic of electronics that all products are

introduced imperfect and expensive. But anything worth it's salt gets

better and cheaper, usually dramatically. The industry is betting

heavily on RFID for widespread use across a broad spectrum of markets.

You will see dramatic improvements in reliability, range and cost in

the future. Some versions of RFID elements already have achieved three

fold gains in detection range and the price of some types is already

below $1.

So, I hope I don't sound like I'm a cheerleader for OBRA adopting RFID

because there's more considerations to our particular use as you

accurately have pointed out. In practice RFID is just a part of a

system that is more or less the same as manual time keeping, in effect

just replacing the "button pusher". How the rest of the system

(specifically the software) makes use of that functionality is what is

characterizes the system. I just wish to make the point that all

systems require training, familiarity and development to work up to

their full potential. I'd hate to see one promising option prematurely

discarded based on it's early shortcomings. In the long term RFIDs

contribution to the system has the potential to make time keeping much

easier. And it even could be integrated to work in conjunction with a

video capture system... yielding the best of both worlds. But that's a

job for a system engineer to sort out.

Rick

mike.m-@obra.org wrote:

<blockquote cite="mid685404865-1463-@boing.topica.com"

type="cite">

I am happy to hear that Jim wants to send OBRA more money but, as I stated

in my note, the real question is whether many other people would be

interested in it too. It is a reasonable supposition that if the initial

entry fee to do your first OBRA race was $100 as opposed to the current fee

structure of $20 annual or $5 single there would be fewer people making that

step.

The cost of the chips is not the only stumbling block. There is also the

cost of purchase of the system and the cost of providing staff to run it.

There are system issues of how to deal with riders that forget their chips,

malfunctioning chips, malfunctioning receivers, etc. Although the chip

systems do provide some data that is not conveniently collected by other

methods they do not provide anything that is impossible to collect in other

ways. If lap times are what is needed that can also be collected manually,

it just is usually not done. The chip systems produce just another record

of rider identifiers and times as they pass the location just like what is

done manually by the race officials. If this year's experience holds, the

chip system is not much more accurate and a whole lot slower than the manual

results. I suspect this could be improved with some system changes but that

is yet to be seen. The bottom line is that there are a few people that

might be willing to part with the money for a chip but it is not clear

exactly what they would be getting that they are not currently getting.

Chips may have a use at some races and those races can hire/rent the system.

As structured presently it does not really work for OBRA for most races.

It should be noted that there are other technologies that can be used. OBRA

has recently purchased a Finishlynx line scanner digital photofinish system.

This system can record photos of each rider each time they cross the line

and assign a time to each photo. Potentially we could use this camera to

place every single rider in a field and give them each a finish time. It

can also distinguish close finishes, something that the chip systems do not

do well. It also produces a visual record that can be reviewed for errors

and can use identifiers other than numbers, like jersey color, bike color,

etc. rather than just producing a list of numbers and times like manual or

chip systems do. This is a considerable improvement, on many levels, over

the plain video that has been used at road races for many years. Riders

will not need to wear, manage or pay for chips. I shot some tests at the

Estacada race and I think that this will be more useful at more events as we

get better at using it. We will be having some training sessions on using

this camera in the near future. Hopefully we will get several operators

trained and it will be in use at most road races this coming year. If

anyone is interested in seeing JPEG cuts from the tests I did let me know

and them to you. If you are interested in learning more about the system or

getting trained as an operator let me know.

Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----

From: Jim [mailto:tct-@yahoo.com]

Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 11:39 AM

To: mike.m-@obra.org; ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Chip Timing/scoring

Yes Mike, to put my money where my mouth is, I would

pay $100 one time to get my chip knowing that I could

roll $80 of that over every year until I stop racing

and then hand my chip back to OBRA and get my $80

back...

--- mike.m-@obra.org wrote:

    There are many reasons the system outlined below

would not work. The

biggest one is the cost of the individual chips,

currently $86. Do you want

to pay $100+ for your OBRA annual membership? More importantly how

many other people want to? This is not a technology that

is ready for OBRA-wide

use although individual races may wish to rent the

system and hire a company

to do timing this way. I have no doubt that RFID

chips will eventually be

more useful but they are not there yet. People have

been asking me about

these systems for years, in fact so frequently that

I composed a stock

answer file which is below. I guess the bottom line

is that this technology

remains expensive and not tremendously dependable.

Mike Murray

I have been following the use of transponders in

bike racing (as well as in

running, triathlon, motor sports, model car racing,

etc.) for several years.

Although the transponders can work very well for

some applications they have

created major timing disasters at several bike

races. Sea Otter was

evidently an example of this one year. As I

understand it, the transponder

signal was disrupted by metal structures in the

finish area and the results

produced were inaccurate.

There are several companies that produce these

devices and systems. They

vary in costs, reliability and set up requirements.

They use a chip that is

energized by passing through an antenna field at the

measurement point.

This causes the chip to emit a radio signal at that

point that has an

identifying code. There are systems that use a mat

that is placed on the

finish line and other systems that use a set of

vertical antennas at the

side of the road.

For racing at a single location where the set up of

the finish area antennae

system can be consistent many of the reliability

issue can be tested and

resolved. If the set up is different for every

race, as it would be for

bike racing, the reliability goes downhill

significantly.

There is also more benefit for events where there

are large numbers of

competitors that all need to be timed, like running

or triathlons. In this

case the costs of the system (not only monetary)

seem small compared to the

costs of manual systems. For bike racing the field

sizes are smaller and

generally the timing requirements are less because

generally all the

competitors are not timed. (In fact, for road races

there is generally only

a time for the leader and order of finish is all

that matters. Even in

stage races bunches of riders are given pack times.)

The main monetary cost is the cost of the chips.

There are 3 basic systems

for managing these:

1) All competitors purchase chips - This is the

motor sport model generally.

This probably causes them less problems since the

chip cost is small

relative to equipment costs. For bike racing, this

would significantly

raise the cost of participating. This would likely

have a negative effect

on participation.

2) The organization purchases the chips - If OBRA

were to do this we would

need to purchase a minimum of 400 chips, to cover

cross this year we would

have needed 700+. Even for the lowest priced chip

systems (which are less

reliable) this would cost ~$10,000+. It would also

require us to institute

a system of collecting the chips after each race.

At running or tri events

this is easier because the finishing competitors can

be funneled into a

corral and not let out until the turn in their chip.

This is far harder to

do at a bike race. The Atlanta Olympics used chips

and they lost them so

you can be assured that "shrinkage" would be a major

issue for OBRA. A

deposit would need to be charged which would

complicate the system and be a

disincentive for participation.

3) The organization buys some chips and the

competitors buy some - This is

what some running events do. The competitor gets an advantage in

having an easier registration process and he eliminates the

need to pay deposit,

collect and turn back in the transponder, etc. For

this convenience they

pay the cost of the transponder. The organization

benefits by decreasing

the number of transponders that they need. This is

probably the system that

would work best for OBRA.

Currently, the cost of using these systems for

running and tri races is too

high for individual races or even series of races.

When they use them they

hire a timing company to provide the chips and run

the system. This would

be available to bike races too but, at this point,

there are few that have

thought that the benefit justifies the cost.

I have no doubt that we will eventually be using

this type of device but I

do not think that the technology is yet to the point

where they make sense

for most races. I will be continuing to follow this

subject and when there

is a product that makes sense from a practical and

cost point of view we

will get it.

Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----

From: Tom [mailto:tct-@yahoo.com]

Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 09:20 AM

To: mark.so-@gmail.com; ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Chip Timing/scoring

Hey Candi & all OBRAites

On the chip issue, how about tie it to our OBRA

membership. You issue one chip to each OBRA member.

There information is permantly stored in the

computer

database. When you go to a race, you show up with

the

chip, roll across the "register matt" and wal-la you

are in and your chip has been tested to make sure it

is working. We could even have a system of

attaching

the chips to the bike so people didn't forget them

in

a rush. OBRA could charge a refundable deposit for

each chip when they are issued, that way there is no additional cost

to OBRA if someone loses their chips.

I have no idea how many registerd OBRA riders are

out

there, but I would bet over 50% would favor some

sort

of electronic timing. If this is the case, why

don't

we have a one time OBRA "Chip Tax" to get the whole

program off the ground. If we get our act together,

we could maybe have it in place for 2006 racing.

Just my .02c

--- Mark Jenkins <mark.so-@gmail.com> wrote:





      Success or failure seems pretty assessable.

1. Were the chip results able to be squared with hand-scored results

easily and efficiently?

2. Were chip timed results available promptly with

reasonable expectation of

accuracy?

3. If not, are there reasonable things about

processes that can be improved

prior to next season without causing additional

burden to Cross Crusade

staff, and will these improvements result in a





=== message truncated ===

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mike.m-@obra.org

2005-12-08

I am happy to hear that Jim wants to send OBRA more money but, as I stated

in my note, the real question is whether many other people would be

interested in it too. It is a reasonable supposition that if the initial

entry fee to do your first OBRA race was $100 as opposed to the current fee

structure of $20 annual or $5 single there would be fewer people making that

step.

The cost of the chips is not the only stumbling block. There is also the

cost of purchase of the system and the cost of providing staff to run it.

There are system issues of how to deal with riders that forget their chips,

malfunctioning chips, malfunctioning receivers, etc. Although the chip

systems do provide some data that is not conveniently collected by other

methods they do not provide anything that is impossible to collect in other

ways. If lap times are what is needed that can also be collected manually,

it just is usually not done. The chip systems produce just another record

of rider identifiers and times as they pass the location just like what is

done manually by the race officials. If this year's experience holds, the

chip system is not much more accurate and a whole lot slower than the manual

results. I suspect this could be improved with some system changes but that

is yet to be seen. The bottom line is that there are a few people that

might be willing to part with the money for a chip but it is not clear

exactly what they would be getting that they are not currently getting.

Chips may have a use at some races and those races can hire/rent the system.

As structured presently it does not really work for OBRA for most races.

It should be noted that there are other technologies that can be used. OBRA

has recently purchased a Finishlynx line scanner digital photofinish system.

This system can record photos of each rider each time they cross the line

and assign a time to each photo. Potentially we could use this camera to

place every single rider in a field and give them each a finish time. It

can also distinguish close finishes, something that the chip systems do not

do well. It also produces a visual record that can be reviewed for errors

and can use identifiers other than numbers, like jersey color, bike color,

etc. rather than just producing a list of numbers and times like manual or

chip systems do. This is a considerable improvement, on many levels, over

the plain video that has been used at road races for many years. Riders

will not need to wear, manage or pay for chips. I shot some tests at the

Estacada race and I think that this will be more useful at more events as we

get better at using it. We will be having some training sessions on using

this camera in the near future. Hopefully we will get several operators

trained and it will be in use at most road races this coming year. If

anyone is interested in seeing JPEG cuts from the tests I did let me know

and them to you. If you are interested in learning more about the system or

getting trained as an operator let me know.

Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----

From: Jim [mailto:tct-@yahoo.com]

Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 11:39 AM

To: mike.m-@obra.org; ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Chip Timing/scoring

Yes Mike, to put my money where my mouth is, I would

pay $100 one time to get my chip knowing that I could

roll $80 of that over every year until I stop racing

and then hand my chip back to OBRA and get my $80

back...

--- mike.m-@obra.org wrote:

There are many reasons the system outlined below

would not work. The

biggest one is the cost of the individual chips,

currently $86. Do you want

to pay $100+ for your OBRA annual membership? More importantly how

many other people want to? This is not a technology that

is ready for OBRA-wide

use although individual races may wish to rent the

system and hire a company

to do timing this way. I have no doubt that RFID

chips will eventually be

more useful but they are not there yet. People have

been asking me about

these systems for years, in fact so frequently that

I composed a stock

answer file which is below. I guess the bottom line

is that this technology

remains expensive and not tremendously dependable.

Mike Murray

I have been following the use of transponders in

bike racing (as well as in

running, triathlon, motor sports, model car racing,

etc.) for several years.

Although the transponders can work very well for

some applications they have

created major timing disasters at several bike

races. Sea Otter was

evidently an example of this one year. As I

understand it, the transponder

signal was disrupted by metal structures in the

finish area and the results

produced were inaccurate.

There are several companies that produce these

devices and systems. They

vary in costs, reliability and set up requirements.

They use a chip that is

energized by passing through an antenna field at the

measurement point.

This causes the chip to emit a radio signal at that

point that has an

identifying code. There are systems that use a mat

that is placed on the

finish line and other systems that use a set of

vertical antennas at the

side of the road.

For racing at a single location where the set up of

the finish area antennae

system can be consistent many of the reliability

issue can be tested and

resolved. If the set up is different for every

race, as it would be for

bike racing, the reliability goes downhill

significantly.

There is also more benefit for events where there

are large numbers of

competitors that all need to be timed, like running

or triathlons. In this

case the costs of the system (not only monetary)

seem small compared to the

costs of manual systems. For bike racing the field

sizes are smaller and

generally the timing requirements are less because

generally all the

competitors are not timed. (In fact, for road races

there is generally only

a time for the leader and order of finish is all

that matters. Even in

stage races bunches of riders are given pack times.)

The main monetary cost is the cost of the chips.

There are 3 basic systems

for managing these:

1) All competitors purchase chips - This is the

motor sport model generally.

This probably causes them less problems since the

chip cost is small

relative to equipment costs. For bike racing, this

would significantly

raise the cost of participating. This would likely

have a negative effect

on participation.

2) The organization purchases the chips - If OBRA

were to do this we would

need to purchase a minimum of 400 chips, to cover

cross this year we would

have needed 700+. Even for the lowest priced chip

systems (which are less

reliable) this would cost ~$10,000+. It would also

require us to institute

a system of collecting the chips after each race.

At running or tri events

this is easier because the finishing competitors can

be funneled into a

corral and not let out until the turn in their chip.

This is far harder to

do at a bike race. The Atlanta Olympics used chips

and they lost them so

you can be assured that "shrinkage" would be a major

issue for OBRA. A

deposit would need to be charged which would

complicate the system and be a

disincentive for participation.

3) The organization buys some chips and the

competitors buy some - This is

what some running events do. The competitor gets an advantage in

having an easier registration process and he eliminates the

need to pay deposit,

collect and turn back in the transponder, etc. For

this convenience they

pay the cost of the transponder. The organization

benefits by decreasing

the number of transponders that they need. This is

probably the system that

would work best for OBRA.

Currently, the cost of using these systems for

running and tri races is too

high for individual races or even series of races.

When they use them they

hire a timing company to provide the chips and run

the system. This would

be available to bike races too but, at this point,

there are few that have

thought that the benefit justifies the cost.

I have no doubt that we will eventually be using

this type of device but I

do not think that the technology is yet to the point

where they make sense

for most races. I will be continuing to follow this

subject and when there

is a product that makes sense from a practical and

cost point of view we

will get it.

Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----

From: Tom [mailto:tct-@yahoo.com]

Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 09:20 AM

To: mark.so-@gmail.com; ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Chip Timing/scoring

Hey Candi & all OBRAites

On the chip issue, how about tie it to our OBRA

membership. You issue one chip to each OBRA member.

There information is permantly stored in the

computer

database. When you go to a race, you show up with

the

chip, roll across the "register matt" and wal-la you

are in and your chip has been tested to make sure it

is working. We could even have a system of

attaching

the chips to the bike so people didn't forget them

in

a rush. OBRA could charge a refundable deposit for

each chip when they are issued, that way there is no additional cost

to OBRA if someone loses their chips.

I have no idea how many registerd OBRA riders are

out

there, but I would bet over 50% would favor some

sort

of electronic timing. If this is the case, why

don't

we have a one time OBRA "Chip Tax" to get the whole

program off the ground. If we get our act together,

we could maybe have it in place for 2006 racing.

Just my .02c

--- Mark Jenkins <mark.so-@gmail.com> wrote:

Success or failure seems pretty assessable.

1. Were the chip results able to be squared with hand-scored results

easily and efficiently?

2. Were chip timed results available promptly with

reasonable expectation of

accuracy?

3. If not, are there reasonable things about

processes that can be improved

prior to next season without causing additional

burden to Cross Crusade

staff, and will these improvements result in a

=== message truncated ===

__________________________________________

Yahoo! DSL - Something to write home about.

Just $16.99/mo. or less.

dsl.yahoo.com

Jim

2005-12-07

Yes Mike, to put my money where my mouth is, I would

pay $100 one time to get my chip knowing that I could

roll $80 of that over every year until I stop racing

and then hand my chip back to OBRA and get my $80

back...

--- mike.m-@obra.org wrote:

There are many reasons the system outlined below

would not work. The

biggest one is the cost of the individual chips,

currently $86. Do you want

to pay $100+ for your OBRA annual membership? More

importantly how many

other people want to? This is not a technology that

is ready for OBRA-wide

use although individual races may wish to rent the

system and hire a company

to do timing this way. I have no doubt that RFID

chips will eventually be

more useful but they are not there yet. People have

been asking me about

these systems for years, in fact so frequently that

I composed a stock

answer file which is below. I guess the bottom line

is that this technology

remains expensive and not tremendously dependable.

Mike Murray

I have been following the use of transponders in

bike racing (as well as in

running, triathlon, motor sports, model car racing,

etc.) for several years.

Although the transponders can work very well for

some applications they have

created major timing disasters at several bike

races. Sea Otter was

evidently an example of this one year. As I

understand it, the transponder

signal was disrupted by metal structures in the

finish area and the results

produced were inaccurate.

There are several companies that produce these

devices and systems. They

vary in costs, reliability and set up requirements.

They use a chip that is

energized by passing through an antenna field at the

measurement point.

This causes the chip to emit a radio signal at that

point that has an

identifying code. There are systems that use a mat

that is placed on the

finish line and other systems that use a set of

vertical antennas at the

side of the road.

For racing at a single location where the set up of

the finish area antennae

system can be consistent many of the reliability

issue can be tested and

resolved. If the set up is different for every

race, as it would be for

bike racing, the reliability goes downhill

significantly.

There is also more benefit for events where there

are large numbers of

competitors that all need to be timed, like running

or triathlons. In this

case the costs of the system (not only monetary)

seem small compared to the

costs of manual systems. For bike racing the field

sizes are smaller and

generally the timing requirements are less because

generally all the

competitors are not timed. (In fact, for road races

there is generally only

a time for the leader and order of finish is all

that matters. Even in

stage races bunches of riders are given pack times.)

The main monetary cost is the cost of the chips.

There are 3 basic systems

for managing these:

1) All competitors purchase chips - This is the

motor sport model generally.

This probably causes them less problems since the

chip cost is small

relative to equipment costs. For bike racing, this

would significantly

raise the cost of participating. This would likely

have a negative effect

on participation.

2) The organization purchases the chips - If OBRA

were to do this we would

need to purchase a minimum of 400 chips, to cover

cross this year we would

have needed 700+. Even for the lowest priced chip

systems (which are less

reliable) this would cost ~$10,000+. It would also

require us to institute

a system of collecting the chips after each race.

At running or tri events

this is easier because the finishing competitors can

be funneled into a

corral and not let out until the turn in their chip.

This is far harder to

do at a bike race. The Atlanta Olympics used chips

and they lost them so

you can be assured that "shrinkage" would be a major

issue for OBRA. A

deposit would need to be charged which would

complicate the system and be a

disincentive for participation.

3) The organization buys some chips and the

competitors buy some - This is

what some running events do. The competitor gets an

advantage in having an

easier registration process and he eliminates the

need to pay deposit,

collect and turn back in the transponder, etc. For

this convenience they

pay the cost of the transponder. The organization

benefits by decreasing

the number of transponders that they need. This is

probably the system that

would work best for OBRA.

Currently, the cost of using these systems for

running and tri races is too

high for individual races or even series of races.

When they use them they

hire a timing company to provide the chips and run

the system. This would

be available to bike races too but, at this point,

there are few that have

thought that the benefit justifies the cost.

I have no doubt that we will eventually be using

this type of device but I

do not think that the technology is yet to the point

where they make sense

for most races. I will be continuing to follow this

subject and when there

is a product that makes sense from a practical and

cost point of view we

will get it.

Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----

From: Tom [mailto:tct-@yahoo.com]

Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 09:20 AM

To: mark.so-@gmail.com; ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Chip Timing/scoring

Hey Candi & all OBRAites

On the chip issue, how about tie it to our OBRA

membership. You issue one chip to each OBRA member.

There information is permantly stored in the

computer

database. When you go to a race, you show up with

the

chip, roll across the "register matt" and wal-la you

are in and your chip has been tested to make sure it

is working. We could even have a system of

attaching

the chips to the bike so people didn't forget them

in

a rush. OBRA could charge a refundable deposit for

each chip when they are issued, that way there is no

additional cost to OBRA if someone loses their

chips.

I have no idea how many registerd OBRA riders are

out

there, but I would bet over 50% would favor some

sort

of electronic timing. If this is the case, why

don't

we have a one time OBRA "Chip Tax" to get the whole

program off the ground. If we get our act together,

we could maybe have it in place for 2006 racing.

Just my .02c

--- Mark Jenkins <mark.so-@gmail.com> wrote:

Success or failure seems pretty assessable.

1. Were the chip results able to be squared with

hand-scored results easily

and efficiently?

2. Were chip timed results available promptly with

reasonable expectation of

accuracy?

3. If not, are there reasonable things about

processes that can be improved

prior to next season without causing additional

burden to Cross Crusade

staff, and will these improvements result in a

=== message truncated ===

__________________________________________

Yahoo! DSL ? Something to write home about.

Just $16.99/mo. or less.

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Hormann, Douglas J

2005-12-06

At Alpenrose, Ethan's didn't work at all; at least we never saw a result

on Athlete's lounge. I don't know if it was user error or a problem with

the system, but that's our story.

Doug Hormann

-----Original Message-----

From: jakebigham [mailto:jakeb-@mac.com]

Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 4:28 PM

To: tct-@yahoo.com

Cc: mark.so-@gmail.com; ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Chip Timing/scoring

Has there been a fact based evaluation of how it worked? What

percentage of the racers were left out or results messed up in each

event? I know it didn't work for me at Alpenrose but I don't know how

it worked (or didn't ) overall. Anyone know? -Jake

On Dec 5, 2005, at 9:19 AM, Tom wrote:

Hey Candi & all OBRAites

On the chip issue, how about tie it to our OBRA

membership. You issue one chip to each OBRA member.

There information is permantly stored in the computer

database. When you go to a race, you show up with the

chip, roll across the "register matt" and wal-la you

are in and your chip has been tested to make sure it

is working. We could even have a system of attaching

the chips to the bike so people didn't forget them in

a rush. OBRA could charge a refundable deposit for

each chip when they are issued, that way there is no

additional cost to OBRA if someone loses their chips.

I have no idea how many registerd OBRA riders are out

there, but I would bet over 50% would favor some sort

of electronic timing. If this is the case, why don't

we have a one time OBRA "Chip Tax" to get the whole

program off the ground. If we get our act together,

we could maybe have it in place for 2006 racing.

Just my .02c

--- Mark Jenkins <mark.so-@gmail.com> wrote:

Success or failure seems pretty assessable.

1. Were the chip results able to be squared with

hand-scored results easily

and efficiently?

2. Were chip timed results available promptly with

reasonable expectation of

accuracy?

3. If not, are there reasonable things about

processes that can be improved

prior to next season without causing additional

burden to Cross Crusade

staff, and will these improvements result in a

better experience for both

event staff and riders?

Seeing the lap times is very great-- but not having

consistent, prompt and

accurate results just increases everyone's workload

at the back end. In an

event run largely by volunteers whose time is

radically finite it doesn't

seem like the best value for either the time or the

money.

On 12/4/05, Doug Evans <Dou-@sprbrk.com> wrote:

I agree. The ability to see each lap time against

all the other riders in

your group is so dang cool.

[Doug Evans] -----Original Message-----

*From:* Cowan-@aol.com

[mailto:Cowan-@aol.com]

*Sent:* Friday, December 02, 2005 6:22 PM

*To:* da-@preciseflight.com; ob-@topica.com

*Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] Chip Timing/scoring

I think the chip timing was a success. It took a

little bit at the

beginning to get the bugs worked out but I like

having the lap splits so I

can compare times with other riders in my group

and other categories. I

also get to see just how fast some riders are.

However, I do think that the

results should be done by obra officials.

I vote success.

Rich

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jakebigham

2005-12-05

Has there been a fact based evaluation of how it worked? What

percentage of the racers were left out or results messed up in each

event? I know it didn't work for me at Alpenrose but I don't know how

it worked (or didn't ) overall. Anyone know? -Jake

On Dec 5, 2005, at 9:19 AM, Tom wrote:

Hey Candi & all OBRAites

On the chip issue, how about tie it to our OBRA

membership. You issue one chip to each OBRA member.

There information is permantly stored in the computer

database. When you go to a race, you show up with the

chip, roll across the "register matt" and wal-la you

are in and your chip has been tested to make sure it

is working. We could even have a system of attaching

the chips to the bike so people didn't forget them in

a rush. OBRA could charge a refundable deposit for

each chip when they are issued, that way there is no

additional cost to OBRA if someone loses their chips.

I have no idea how many registerd OBRA riders are out

there, but I would bet over 50% would favor some sort

of electronic timing. If this is the case, why don't

we have a one time OBRA "Chip Tax" to get the whole

program off the ground. If we get our act together,

we could maybe have it in place for 2006 racing.

Just my .02c

--- Mark Jenkins <mark.so-@gmail.com> wrote:

Success or failure seems pretty assessable.

1. Were the chip results able to be squared with

hand-scored results easily

and efficiently?

2. Were chip timed results available promptly with

reasonable expectation of

accuracy?

3. If not, are there reasonable things about

processes that can be improved

prior to next season without causing additional

burden to Cross Crusade

staff, and will these improvements result in a

better experience for both

event staff and riders?

Seeing the lap times is very great-- but not having

consistent, prompt and

accurate results just increases everyone's workload

at the back end. In an

event run largely by volunteers whose time is

radically finite it doesn't

seem like the best value for either the time or the

money.

On 12/4/05, Doug Evans <Dou-@sprbrk.com> wrote:

I agree. The ability to see each lap time against