horrible day for bike racing.

Mike Murray

2006-07-03

Jakebigham asks:
"Which brings up a question: if an athlete can safely and legally bring up
their hematocrit (sleeping in a tent with reduced oxygen)why would anyone
use EPO?
1) Takes too long?
2) Too much trouble and expense?"

There is no rational reason. Not only would hematocrit manipulation with
hypoxia be legal it would have the added benefit of also increasing 2,3 DPG
levels which would increase oxygen off loading at the tissue level and
likely cause a longer lasting increase in hematocrit as endogenous EPO
levels would drop more slowly when the hypoxic stimulus is removed then it
would when exogenous EPO is stopped. It is unlikely that you can push the
hematocrit as high with hypoxia but then since hematocrit levels are
controlled this would not be a reason to prefer EPO to hypoxia. EPO use
would be quicker and easier but it is also expensive. Given the "legal"
risks no rational person would choose EPO. This is irrational behavior.

Mike Murray


Mike Murray

2006-07-03

I have already seen both of these articles The article written by the guy
that doped is more of an advertisement for doping than anything else.
Charitably it could be considered an anecdotal report and subject to the
problems inherent in those. Any study with N=1 should be immediately
suspect. Less charitably one has to wonder about the veracity of anyone how
would undertake such a project. This article really did nothing to help the
problem or legitimately improve anyone's understanding of it.

Outside magazine ran a piece on the GT-B track bikes when I was selling
those. I just remember them saying that the best thing on the bike was the
"silky smooth Suze hubs". I have 30 of these bikes. The hubs are entry
level hubs, very rough and difficult to keep in adjustment. I suspect that
many of the Outside magazine articles are similarly flawed. One needs to
consider the source.

Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----
From: jakebigham [mailto:jakebigham@mac.com]
Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 11:24 AM
To: mike.murray@obra.org
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] horrible day for bike racing.

More broadly, does it work and can it be detected? Below are links to two
Outside magazine articles which you may find interesting. If he link doesn't
work, just paste the HTML in your browser.

on the question of "does doping work?" I think the answer is a definite
yes. In the hands of a trained clinician anyone's athletic performance can
be improved. Remember the Outside article on the guy (a cyclist) who tried
it?
-------------------------
Drug Test
Everybody knows that many athletes cheat by using performance-enhancing
drugs like steroids, testosterone, and EPO. But what is it like to take
these banned substances? Do they really help you win? To find out, we sent
an amateur cyclist into the back rooms of sports medicine, where he just
said yes to the most controversial chemicals in sports.

http://outside.away.com/outside/bodywork/200311/200311_drug_test_1.html

-------------------------
And on the question "can they be detected by testing?" I think the answer is
a definite "only once in a while"
-------------------------
The Awful Truth About Drugs in Sports
Cheaters can't be stopped. Testing costs a fortune. It's shockingly easy to
beat the system. The drug cops are perpetually playing catch-up. Says who?
Drug-testing expert Don Catlin, that's who. He's the doping detective who
helped break the BALCO scandal wide open-and the man who's about to launch a
radical new campaign to finally solve the problem.

By

Brian Alexander

http://outside.away.com/outside/features/200507/drugs-in-sports-1.html

On Jul 2, 2006, at 8:56 PM, Mike Murray wrote:

Rick C Johnson asked:
"Just out of curiosity can you say what happens when the hemotogical limits
are not respected? For instance is there a greater gain or is a point of
diminishing returns reached? And what are the actual health risks? How much
have these health problems been studied and documented?"

As the hematocrit (the percentage of blood volume occupied by red cells) is
increased the ability of the blood to carry oxygen increases
proportionately. Eventually the benefit of increased oxygen carrying
capacity begins to be offset by an increase in viscosity of the blood. The
increase in viscosity decreases blood flow in smaller vessels as well as
increases the cardiac work required to pump that blood around. Eventually
the increased viscosity will cause congestive heart failure with fluid
building up in the lungs and other parts of the body. More catastrophically
is the concern that higher than normal hematocrits may lead to sludging of
the blood causing things like clots in the lung, heart or brain which could
be immediately life threatening, or in other organs leading to less acute
problems. We know that this can happen in disease states that produce high
hematocrits like polycythemia rubra vera or in some patients with diseases
that produce chronically low blood oxygen levels. It has been suggested as
the cause of several unexpected sudden deaths in athletes, primarily
cyclists, but the actual documentation of this is lacking. The risk is
probably there but will likely never by definitively shown since any study
to investigate this risk would be unethical for several reasons.

Exactly where the costs offset the benefit, even just in terms of
performance enhancement and not risk, is not clear. It is probably
significantly above the allowed limits. The allowed limits are arbitrary
chosen numbers which are about 2 standard deviations from the mean
hematocrit. Since the hematocrit in endurance athletes is generally lower
than the untrained population because of plasma volume expansion this means
that only a small percentage of athletes will be above the limit with an
unmodified hematocrit. In disease states that produce an increased
hematocrit generally the level has to be significantly above the allowed
limits before any health problems are seen that are directly attributable to
the high hematocrit. Of course it is certainly possible that there are
other modifications that happen in disease states that might make things
different from a healthy person that increases their hematocrit rapidly. It
may be that an artificially high hematocrit in a healthy person is more
dangerous than in a person with a disease.

One interesting aspect of all this is that aerobic capacity is not predicted
by hematocrit. In other words, you can have a low hematocrit and still have
an ability to produce high aerobic power output and, conversely, you can
have a high hematocrit and still be slow. Hematocrit is not the sole, or
even the most important, determinant of aerobic capacity.

Mike Murray

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


jakebigham

2006-07-03

More broadly, does it work and can it be detected? Below are links to
two Outside magazine articles which you may find interesting. If he
link doesn't work, just paste the HTML in your browser.

on the question of "does doping work?" I think the answer is a
definite yes. In the hands of a trained clinician anyone's athletic
performance can be improved. Remember the Outside article on the guy
(a cyclist) who tried it?
-------------------------
Drug Test
Everybody knows that many athletes cheat by using performance-
enhancing drugs like steroids, testosterone, and EPO. But what is it
like to take these banned substances? Do they really help you win? To
find out, we sent an amateur cyclist into the back rooms of sports
medicine, where he just said yes to the most controversial chemicals
in sports.

http://outside.away.com/outside/bodywork/200311/200311_drug_test_1.html
-------------------------
And on the question "can they be detected by testing?" I think the
answer is a definite "only once in a while"
-------------------------
The Awful Truth About Drugs in Sports
Cheaters can't be stopped. Testing costs a fortune. It's shockingly
easy to beat the system. The drug cops are perpetually playing catch-
up. Says who? Drug-testing expert Don Catlin, that's who. He's the
doping detective who helped break the BALCO scandal wide open—and the
man who's about to launch a radical new campaign to finally solve the
problem.

By Brian Alexander

http://outside.away.com/outside/features/200507/drugs-in-sports-1.html

On Jul 2, 2006, at 8:56 PM, Mike Murray wrote:

> Rick C Johnson asked:
> "Just out of curiosity can you say what happens when the
> hemotogical limits
> are not respected? For instance is there a greater gain or is a
> point of
> diminishing returns reached? And what are the actual health risks?
> How much
> have these health problems been studied and documented?"
>
> As the hematocrit (the percentage of blood volume occupied by red
> cells) is
> increased the ability of the blood to carry oxygen increases
> proportionately. Eventually the benefit of increased oxygen carrying
> capacity begins to be offset by an increase in viscosity of the
> blood. The
> increase in viscosity decreases blood flow in smaller vessels as
> well as
> increases the cardiac work required to pump that blood around.
> Eventually
> the increased viscosity will cause congestive heart failure with fluid
> building up in the lungs and other parts of the body. More
> catastrophically
> is the concern that higher than normal hematocrits may lead to
> sludging of
> the blood causing things like clots in the lung, heart or brain
> which could
> be immediately life threatening, or in other organs leading to less
> acute
> problems. We know that this can happen in disease states that
> produce high
> hematocrits like polycythemia rubra vera or in some patients with
> diseases
> that produce chronically low blood oxygen levels. It has been
> suggested as
> the cause of several unexpected sudden deaths in athletes, primarily
> cyclists, but the actual documentation of this is lacking. The
> risk is
> probably there but will likely never by definitively shown since
> any study
> to investigate this risk would be unethical for several reasons.
>
> Exactly where the costs offset the benefit, even just in terms of
> performance enhancement and not risk, is not clear. It is probably
> significantly above the allowed limits. The allowed limits are
> arbitrary
> chosen numbers which are about 2 standard deviations from the mean
> hematocrit. Since the hematocrit in endurance athletes is
> generally lower
> than the untrained population because of plasma volume expansion
> this means
> that only a small percentage of athletes will be above the limit
> with an
> unmodified hematocrit. In disease states that produce an increased
> hematocrit generally the level has to be significantly above the
> allowed
> limits before any health problems are seen that are directly
> attributable to
> the high hematocrit. Of course it is certainly possible that there
> are
> other modifications that happen in disease states that might make
> things
> different from a healthy person that increases their hematocrit
> rapidly. It
> may be that an artificially high hematocrit in a healthy person is
> more
> dangerous than in a person with a disease.
>
> One interesting aspect of all this is that aerobic capacity is not
> predicted
> by hematocrit. In other words, you can have a low hematocrit and
> still have
> an ability to produce high aerobic power output and, conversely,
> you can
> have a high hematocrit and still be slow. Hematocrit is not the
> sole, or
> even the most important, determinant of aerobic capacity.
>
> Mike Murray
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


jakebigham

2006-07-03

Which brings up a question: if an athlete can safely and legally
bring up their hematocrit (sleeping in a tent with reduced oxygen)
why would anyone use EPO?
1) Takes too long?
2) Too much trouble and expense?
Seems to me if you are the main favorite to win the tour (Ivan
Basso); time, trouble, and expense would not be such tremendous
obstacles. Especially when you consider the downside of the
alternative. -Jake
On Jul 2, 2006, at 8:32 PM, l j wrote:

> Normal hematocrit is about 40-50 but is drastically lower in some
> disease states and in people recieving radiation. EPO will
> stimulate the body to increase the hematocrit levels and in normal
> individuals you can easily exceed normal and there are cases of pro
> cyclists dying in their slleep which of course is bad. Hypoxic
> training (altitude tents) will stimulate the body to increse
> hematocrit levels but I don't believe you can stray above normal
> limits. I tried a tent for 12 weeks and my hematocrit went from 41
> to 46 and my best time ever climbing Springville went from 8:55 to
> 8:29.
>
>
>> From: Ellen Michaelson
>> Reply-To: nellegreen@earthlink.net
>> To: RCJohnson1@attglobal.net
>> CC: obra@list.obra.org
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] horrible day for bike racing.
>> Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2006 18:52:18 -0700
>>
>> I cannot address with scientific precision what the performance
>> benefts
>> are but the risks of an abnormally high hemoglobin(the molecule
>> in red
>> blood cells that carries oxgen) are very well known. There is a
>> disease
>> called Polycythemia vera(P. vera) in which the body makes too many
>> red
>> blood cells. When the blood count gets too high, the blood gets very
>> thick. This makes it hard for blood to circulate normally throughout
>> the body. Symptoms of this disorder even with mild polycythemia
>> inculde
>> headache, dizziness, ringing in the ears, blurred/double vision.
>> Cardiac symptoms include angina and leg pain. Bleeding can occur
>> from
>> the stomach. Blood clots and bleeding occur in about 40% of
>> patients.
>> This means anyone with a seriously a high blood count is at risk for
>> heart attack, stroke and blood clots in the legs, all of which can
>> lead
>> to death. Blood clots and bleeding can occur in the liver and
>> abdomen
>> and lead to catastrophic events. Should someone with a high blood
>> count
>> have to undergo surgery, ie because of an injury/bike crash, surgery
>> could be complicated by uncontrolled bleeding or clotting.
>> Polycythemia
>> is considered a type of malignancy and can be associated with
>> elevation
>> of other types of blood cells, particulary platelets which are
>> involved
>> in clotting and bleeding. Elevated platelets should not occur in
>> blood
>> doping but the elevated blood count alone carries enough risks. The
>> treatment for P.vera is phlebotomy, ie, removing blood from the body,
>> the exact opposite of transfusion. The benefit of raising one's
>> blood
>> count is to increase the number of hemoglobin molecules that carry
>> oxygen giving the body more oxgen to be delivered to the muscles,
>> brain,
>> heart, etc. How much better does one individual perform with a
>> hematocrit of 38-39 vs 49? Who is to say. Someone with the lower
>> hematocrit and the right genetic gifts may out perform the one
>> with the
>> higher hematocrit. I'm sure it happens everyday. An extra 10% red
>> cells would certainly make many people feel stronger. Is the risk
>> worth
>> it?
>>
>> Ellen Michaelson, MD
>> Internist and Hematologist
>>
>>
>>
>> Rick C Johnson wrote:
>>
>> >Just out of curiosity can you say what happens when the hemotogical
>> >limits are not respected? For instance is there a greater gain or
>> is a
>> >point of diminishing returns reached? And what are the actual health
>> >risks? How much have these health problems been studied and
>> documented?
>> >It's obvious that some atheletes have conluded that the combined
>> risks
>> >are worth it. I'd like to better understand what they have really
>> been
>> >risking (beyond simply getting caught cheating).
>> >
>> >Thanks,
>> >Rick
>> >
>> >Tina and Kirk Willett wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >>If the hematological limits are respected, some athletes stand
>> to gain as
>> >>little as a few percent, while others can be transformed within
>> their
>> >>competitive peer-groups. Many athletes know what they stand to
>> gain as an
>> >>individual, both in performance and in business, when making
>> choices.
>> >>
>> >>Hopefully, things are beginning to move in a better direction.
>> >>
>> >>-----Original Message-----
>> >>From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-
>> bounces@list.obra.org] On
>> >>Behalf Of Mike Murray
>> >>Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 3:38 PM
>> >>To: obra@list.obra.org
>> >>Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] horrible day for bike racing.
>> >>
>> >>Brian Baumann asked:
>> >>"Could Lance have possible dominated all of these guys that were
>> doping,
>> >>without doing so himself?"
>> >>
>> >>Yes. Whether he did or not is a different question about which
>> we have lots
>> >>on conjecture but little real information. The bigger point is
>> that any
>> >>advantage offered by use of doping is much less then the
>> difference between
>> >>individuals. Using good performance as a marker of doping use
>> is a bad
>> >>understanding of the process.
>> >>
>> >>With regards to doping way too much emphasis is put on the
>> cheating aspect
>> >>when it should more appropriately be put on the substance abuse
>> aspect.
>> >>
>> >>Mike Murray
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>_______________________________________________
>> >>OBRA mailing list
>> >>obra@list.obra.org
>> >>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> >>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>_______________________________________________
>> >>OBRA mailing list
>> >>obra@list.obra.org
>> >>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> >>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >OBRA mailing list
>> >obra@list.obra.org
>> >http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> >Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://
> search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
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> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


Ron and Dorothy Strasser

2006-07-02

Thanks Ellen for pointing out some of the factual aspects of what is going
on with these procedures. I guess at my age of 56 I have had enough things
happen to my body to realize that this type of thing is done for people to
save their lives in many cases and that even though the medical profession
is very experienced in performing them.... they do hold risks for the
patients. I think the young age of many of the riders that take these risks
shows that other than broken bones and other injuries that many times have
healed relatively quick... they think they are "able to deal with it". Life
is pretty precious and as tough as we think we are... we are also pretty
darn fragile. Thanks again for the info.
ron
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ellen Michaelson"
To:
Cc:
Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 6:52 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] horrible day for bike racing.

>I cannot address with scientific precision what the performance benefts
> are but the risks of an abnormally high hemoglobin(the molecule in red
> blood cells that carries oxgen) are very well known. There is a disease
> called Polycythemia vera(P. vera) in which the body makes too many red
> blood cells. When the blood count gets too high, the blood gets very
> thick. This makes it hard for blood to circulate normally throughout
> the body. Symptoms of this disorder even with mild polycythemia inculde
> headache, dizziness, ringing in the ears, blurred/double vision.
> Cardiac symptoms include angina and leg pain. Bleeding can occur from
> the stomach. Blood clots and bleeding occur in about 40% of patients.
> This means anyone with a seriously a high blood count is at risk for
> heart attack, stroke and blood clots in the legs, all of which can lead
> to death. Blood clots and bleeding can occur in the liver and abdomen
> and lead to catastrophic events. Should someone with a high blood count
> have to undergo surgery, ie because of an injury/bike crash, surgery
> could be complicated by uncontrolled bleeding or clotting. Polycythemia
> is considered a type of malignancy and can be associated with elevation
> of other types of blood cells, particulary platelets which are involved
> in clotting and bleeding. Elevated platelets should not occur in blood
> doping but the elevated blood count alone carries enough risks. The
> treatment for P.vera is phlebotomy, ie, removing blood from the body,
> the exact opposite of transfusion. The benefit of raising one's blood
> count is to increase the number of hemoglobin molecules that carry
> oxygen giving the body more oxgen to be delivered to the muscles, brain,
> heart, etc. How much better does one individual perform with a
> hematocrit of 38-39 vs 49? Who is to say. Someone with the lower
> hematocrit and the right genetic gifts may out perform the one with the
> higher hematocrit. I'm sure it happens everyday. An extra 10% red
> cells would certainly make many people feel stronger. Is the risk worth
> it?
>
> Ellen Michaelson, MD
> Internist and Hematologist
>
>
>
> Rick C Johnson wrote:
>
>>Just out of curiosity can you say what happens when the hemotogical
>>limits are not respected? For instance is there a greater gain or is a
>>point of diminishing returns reached? And what are the actual health
>>risks? How much have these health problems been studied and documented?
>>It's obvious that some atheletes have conluded that the combined risks
>>are worth it. I'd like to better understand what they have really been
>>risking (beyond simply getting caught cheating).
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Rick
>>
>>Tina and Kirk Willett wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>If the hematological limits are respected, some athletes stand to gain as
>>>little as a few percent, while others can be transformed within their
>>>competitive peer-groups. Many athletes know what they stand to gain as
>>>an
>>>individual, both in performance and in business, when making choices.
>>>
>>>Hopefully, things are beginning to move in a better direction.
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
>>>Behalf Of Mike Murray
>>>Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 3:38 PM
>>>To: obra@list.obra.org
>>>Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] horrible day for bike racing.
>>>
>>>Brian Baumann asked:
>>>"Could Lance have possible dominated all of these guys that were doping,
>>>without doing so himself?"
>>>
>>>Yes. Whether he did or not is a different question about which we have
>>>lots
>>>on conjecture but little real information. The bigger point is that any
>>>advantage offered by use of doping is much less then the difference
>>>between
>>>individuals. Using good performance as a marker of doping use is a bad
>>>understanding of the process.
>>>
>>>With regards to doping way too much emphasis is put on the cheating
>>>aspect
>>>when it should more appropriately be put on the substance abuse aspect.
>>>
>>>Mike Murray
>>>
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>OBRA mailing list
>>>obra@list.obra.org
>>>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>>
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>OBRA mailing list
>>>obra@list.obra.org
>>>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>OBRA mailing list
>>obra@list.obra.org
>>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>


Mike Murray

2006-07-02

Rick C Johnson asked:
"Just out of curiosity can you say what happens when the hemotogical limits
are not respected? For instance is there a greater gain or is a point of
diminishing returns reached? And what are the actual health risks? How much
have these health problems been studied and documented?"

As the hematocrit (the percentage of blood volume occupied by red cells) is
increased the ability of the blood to carry oxygen increases
proportionately. Eventually the benefit of increased oxygen carrying
capacity begins to be offset by an increase in viscosity of the blood. The
increase in viscosity decreases blood flow in smaller vessels as well as
increases the cardiac work required to pump that blood around. Eventually
the increased viscosity will cause congestive heart failure with fluid
building up in the lungs and other parts of the body. More catastrophically
is the concern that higher than normal hematocrits may lead to sludging of
the blood causing things like clots in the lung, heart or brain which could
be immediately life threatening, or in other organs leading to less acute
problems. We know that this can happen in disease states that produce high
hematocrits like polycythemia rubra vera or in some patients with diseases
that produce chronically low blood oxygen levels. It has been suggested as
the cause of several unexpected sudden deaths in athletes, primarily
cyclists, but the actual documentation of this is lacking. The risk is
probably there but will likely never by definitively shown since any study
to investigate this risk would be unethical for several reasons.

Exactly where the costs offset the benefit, even just in terms of
performance enhancement and not risk, is not clear. It is probably
significantly above the allowed limits. The allowed limits are arbitrary
chosen numbers which are about 2 standard deviations from the mean
hematocrit. Since the hematocrit in endurance athletes is generally lower
than the untrained population because of plasma volume expansion this means
that only a small percentage of athletes will be above the limit with an
unmodified hematocrit. In disease states that produce an increased
hematocrit generally the level has to be significantly above the allowed
limits before any health problems are seen that are directly attributable to
the high hematocrit. Of course it is certainly possible that there are
other modifications that happen in disease states that might make things
different from a healthy person that increases their hematocrit rapidly. It
may be that an artificially high hematocrit in a healthy person is more
dangerous than in a person with a disease.

One interesting aspect of all this is that aerobic capacity is not predicted
by hematocrit. In other words, you can have a low hematocrit and still have
an ability to produce high aerobic power output and, conversely, you can
have a high hematocrit and still be slow. Hematocrit is not the sole, or
even the most important, determinant of aerobic capacity.

Mike Murray


Normal hematocrit is about 40-50 but is drastically lower in some disease
states and in people recieving radiation. EPO will stimulate the body to
increase the hematocrit levels and in normal individuals you can easily
exceed normal and there are cases of pro cyclists dying in their slleep
which of course is bad. Hypoxic training (altitude tents) will stimulate the
body to increse hematocrit levels but I don't believe you can stray above
normal limits. I tried a tent for 12 weeks and my hematocrit went from 41 to
46 and my best time ever climbing Springville went from 8:55 to 8:29.

>From: Ellen Michaelson
>Reply-To: nellegreen@earthlink.net
>To: RCJohnson1@attglobal.net
>CC: obra@list.obra.org
>Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] horrible day for bike racing.
>Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2006 18:52:18 -0700
>
>I cannot address with scientific precision what the performance benefts
>are but the risks of an abnormally high hemoglobin(the molecule in red
>blood cells that carries oxgen) are very well known. There is a disease
>called Polycythemia vera(P. vera) in which the body makes too many red
>blood cells. When the blood count gets too high, the blood gets very
>thick. This makes it hard for blood to circulate normally throughout
>the body. Symptoms of this disorder even with mild polycythemia inculde
>headache, dizziness, ringing in the ears, blurred/double vision.
>Cardiac symptoms include angina and leg pain. Bleeding can occur from
>the stomach. Blood clots and bleeding occur in about 40% of patients.
>This means anyone with a seriously a high blood count is at risk for
>heart attack, stroke and blood clots in the legs, all of which can lead
>to death. Blood clots and bleeding can occur in the liver and abdomen
>and lead to catastrophic events. Should someone with a high blood count
>have to undergo surgery, ie because of an injury/bike crash, surgery
>could be complicated by uncontrolled bleeding or clotting. Polycythemia
>is considered a type of malignancy and can be associated with elevation
>of other types of blood cells, particulary platelets which are involved
>in clotting and bleeding. Elevated platelets should not occur in blood
>doping but the elevated blood count alone carries enough risks. The
>treatment for P.vera is phlebotomy, ie, removing blood from the body,
>the exact opposite of transfusion. The benefit of raising one's blood
>count is to increase the number of hemoglobin molecules that carry
>oxygen giving the body more oxgen to be delivered to the muscles, brain,
>heart, etc. How much better does one individual perform with a
>hematocrit of 38-39 vs 49? Who is to say. Someone with the lower
>hematocrit and the right genetic gifts may out perform the one with the
>higher hematocrit. I'm sure it happens everyday. An extra 10% red
>cells would certainly make many people feel stronger. Is the risk worth
>it?
>
>Ellen Michaelson, MD
>Internist and Hematologist
>
>
>
>Rick C Johnson wrote:
>
> >Just out of curiosity can you say what happens when the hemotogical
> >limits are not respected? For instance is there a greater gain or is a
> >point of diminishing returns reached? And what are the actual health
> >risks? How much have these health problems been studied and documented?
> >It's obvious that some atheletes have conluded that the combined risks
> >are worth it. I'd like to better understand what they have really been
> >risking (beyond simply getting caught cheating).
> >
> >Thanks,
> >Rick
> >
> >Tina and Kirk Willett wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >>If the hematological limits are respected, some athletes stand to gain
>as
> >>little as a few percent, while others can be transformed within their
> >>competitive peer-groups. Many athletes know what they stand to gain as
>an
> >>individual, both in performance and in business, when making choices.
> >>
> >>Hopefully, things are beginning to move in a better direction.
> >>
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
> >>Behalf Of Mike Murray
> >>Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 3:38 PM
> >>To: obra@list.obra.org
> >>Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] horrible day for bike racing.
> >>
> >>Brian Baumann asked:
> >>"Could Lance have possible dominated all of these guys that were doping,
> >>without doing so himself?"
> >>
> >>Yes. Whether he did or not is a different question about which we have
>lots
> >>on conjecture but little real information. The bigger point is that any
> >>advantage offered by use of doping is much less then the difference
>between
> >>individuals. Using good performance as a marker of doping use is a bad
> >>understanding of the process.
> >>
> >>With regards to doping way too much emphasis is put on the cheating
>aspect
> >>when it should more appropriately be put on the substance abuse aspect.
> >>
> >>Mike Murray
> >>
> >>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>OBRA mailing list
> >>obra@list.obra.org
> >>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> >>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >>
> >>
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> >>obra@list.obra.org
> >>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> >>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >_______________________________________________
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> >obra@list.obra.org
> >http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> >Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> >
> >
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Ellen Michaelson

2006-07-02

I have heard that perhaps the reason Tyler Hamilton got "caught" was
because he was given someone else's blood by mistake. Well, such a
mistake could have cost him his life. If the other blood did not have
his same blood type and specificity, he could have had a transfusion
reaction where his body makes antibodies that attack the foreign blood
cells. This can be life threatening.

Ellen M., MD

Rick C Johnson wrote:

>Just out of curiosity can you say what happens when the hemotogical
>limits are not respected? For instance is there a greater gain or is a
>point of diminishing returns reached? And what are the actual health
>risks? How much have these health problems been studied and documented?
>It's obvious that some atheletes have conluded that the combined risks
>are worth it. I'd like to better understand what they have really been
>risking (beyond simply getting caught cheating).
>
>Thanks,
>Rick
>
>Tina and Kirk Willett wrote:
>
>
>
>>If the hematological limits are respected, some athletes stand to gain as
>>little as a few percent, while others can be transformed within their
>>competitive peer-groups. Many athletes know what they stand to gain as an
>>individual, both in performance and in business, when making choices.
>>
>>Hopefully, things are beginning to move in a better direction.
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
>>Behalf Of Mike Murray
>>Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 3:38 PM
>>To: obra@list.obra.org
>>Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] horrible day for bike racing.
>>
>>Brian Baumann asked:
>>"Could Lance have possible dominated all of these guys that were doping,
>>without doing so himself?"
>>
>>Yes. Whether he did or not is a different question about which we have lots
>>on conjecture but little real information. The bigger point is that any
>>advantage offered by use of doping is much less then the difference between
>>individuals. Using good performance as a marker of doping use is a bad
>>understanding of the process.
>>
>>With regards to doping way too much emphasis is put on the cheating aspect
>>when it should more appropriately be put on the substance abuse aspect.
>>
>>Mike Murray
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>OBRA mailing list
>>obra@list.obra.org
>>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>OBRA mailing list
>>obra@list.obra.org
>>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>
>
>


Ellen Michaelson

2006-07-02

I cannot address with scientific precision what the performance benefts
are but the risks of an abnormally high hemoglobin(the molecule in red
blood cells that carries oxgen) are very well known. There is a disease
called Polycythemia vera(P. vera) in which the body makes too many red
blood cells. When the blood count gets too high, the blood gets very
thick. This makes it hard for blood to circulate normally throughout
the body. Symptoms of this disorder even with mild polycythemia inculde
headache, dizziness, ringing in the ears, blurred/double vision.
Cardiac symptoms include angina and leg pain. Bleeding can occur from
the stomach. Blood clots and bleeding occur in about 40% of patients.
This means anyone with a seriously a high blood count is at risk for
heart attack, stroke and blood clots in the legs, all of which can lead
to death. Blood clots and bleeding can occur in the liver and abdomen
and lead to catastrophic events. Should someone with a high blood count
have to undergo surgery, ie because of an injury/bike crash, surgery
could be complicated by uncontrolled bleeding or clotting. Polycythemia
is considered a type of malignancy and can be associated with elevation
of other types of blood cells, particulary platelets which are involved
in clotting and bleeding. Elevated platelets should not occur in blood
doping but the elevated blood count alone carries enough risks. The
treatment for P.vera is phlebotomy, ie, removing blood from the body,
the exact opposite of transfusion. The benefit of raising one's blood
count is to increase the number of hemoglobin molecules that carry
oxygen giving the body more oxgen to be delivered to the muscles, brain,
heart, etc. How much better does one individual perform with a
hematocrit of 38-39 vs 49? Who is to say. Someone with the lower
hematocrit and the right genetic gifts may out perform the one with the
higher hematocrit. I'm sure it happens everyday. An extra 10% red
cells would certainly make many people feel stronger. Is the risk worth
it?

Ellen Michaelson, MD
Internist and Hematologist

Rick C Johnson wrote:

>Just out of curiosity can you say what happens when the hemotogical
>limits are not respected? For instance is there a greater gain or is a
>point of diminishing returns reached? And what are the actual health
>risks? How much have these health problems been studied and documented?
>It's obvious that some atheletes have conluded that the combined risks
>are worth it. I'd like to better understand what they have really been
>risking (beyond simply getting caught cheating).
>
>Thanks,
>Rick
>
>Tina and Kirk Willett wrote:
>
>
>
>>If the hematological limits are respected, some athletes stand to gain as
>>little as a few percent, while others can be transformed within their
>>competitive peer-groups. Many athletes know what they stand to gain as an
>>individual, both in performance and in business, when making choices.
>>
>>Hopefully, things are beginning to move in a better direction.
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
>>Behalf Of Mike Murray
>>Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 3:38 PM
>>To: obra@list.obra.org
>>Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] horrible day for bike racing.
>>
>>Brian Baumann asked:
>>"Could Lance have possible dominated all of these guys that were doping,
>>without doing so himself?"
>>
>>Yes. Whether he did or not is a different question about which we have lots
>>on conjecture but little real information. The bigger point is that any
>>advantage offered by use of doping is much less then the difference between
>>individuals. Using good performance as a marker of doping use is a bad
>>understanding of the process.
>>
>>With regards to doping way too much emphasis is put on the cheating aspect
>>when it should more appropriately be put on the substance abuse aspect.
>>
>>Mike Murray
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>OBRA mailing list
>>obra@list.obra.org
>>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>OBRA mailing list
>>obra@list.obra.org
>>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>_______________________________________________
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>obra@list.obra.org
>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>


Tina and Kirk Willett

2006-07-02

I think that some further improvement can be expected. I do not know the
extent of the risks, but I suspect that it varies with the competence and
presence of any supervision, the doping program itself, and any
predispositions which exist within the athlete.

I'm sure there are others with greater expertise who can comment more
thoroughly on the health risks.

-----Original Message-----
From: Rick C Johnson [mailto:RCJohnson1@attglobal.net]
Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 9:19 AM
To: Tina and Kirk Willett
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] horrible day for bike racing.

Just out of curiosity can you say what happens when the hemotogical
limits are not respected? For instance is there a greater gain or is a
point of diminishing returns reached? And what are the actual health
risks? How much have these health problems been studied and documented?
It's obvious that some atheletes have conluded that the combined risks
are worth it. I'd like to better understand what they have really been
risking (beyond simply getting caught cheating).

Thanks,
Rick

Tina and Kirk Willett wrote:

>If the hematological limits are respected, some athletes stand to gain as
>little as a few percent, while others can be transformed within their
>competitive peer-groups. Many athletes know what they stand to gain as an
>individual, both in performance and in business, when making choices.
>
>Hopefully, things are beginning to move in a better direction.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
>Behalf Of Mike Murray
>Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 3:38 PM
>To: obra@list.obra.org
>Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] horrible day for bike racing.
>
>Brian Baumann asked:
>"Could Lance have possible dominated all of these guys that were doping,
>without doing so himself?"
>
>Yes. Whether he did or not is a different question about which we have
lots
>on conjecture but little real information. The bigger point is that any
>advantage offered by use of doping is much less then the difference between
>individuals. Using good performance as a marker of doping use is a bad
>understanding of the process.
>
>With regards to doping way too much emphasis is put on the cheating aspect
>when it should more appropriately be put on the substance abuse aspect.
>
>Mike Murray
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>OBRA mailing list
>obra@list.obra.org
>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>OBRA mailing list
>obra@list.obra.org
>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
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>
>
>


Matt Plummer

2006-07-02

Maybe this can help a little.
I'm studying Exercise Science and this is what I've been taught...

First some background.
Max oxygen transport=(max cardiac output) x (oxygen content of blood)

Increasing the concentration of hemoglobin in the blood will improve the oxygen
delivery to tissue. This can happen through blood transfusion or drugs.

In a blood transfusion, storing the blood will dictate the remaining red blood
cell(RBC) levels. When blood is refrigerated, only about 60% of RBC's will be
reinfused. Blood can only be refrigerated for 3 weeks. Freezing the blood will
allow 85% of the RBC's to be reinfused and can be kept frozen for many years.

Erythropoietin(EPO) is a hormone that stimulates RBC production. EPO is
typically used during therapy for kidney damage. This is to reduce anemia.

Use of transfusion and EPO ultimately have the same effect, increased RBC
quantity. The increase of RBC's can certainly get out of hand. This could lead
to extremely high RBC levels, which would impair blood flow to the heart and
brain, causing a myocardial infarction(heart attack) or a stroke. With the
desired increase in RBC production, the effect would last for many weeks while
the level of EPO would return quickly to resting values.

There are certainly other problems that go with either method, but this is a
quick look.

Matt Plummer


Rick C Johnson

2006-07-02

Just out of curiosity can you say what happens when the hemotogical
limits are not respected? For instance is there a greater gain or is a
point of diminishing returns reached? And what are the actual health
risks? How much have these health problems been studied and documented?
It's obvious that some atheletes have conluded that the combined risks
are worth it. I'd like to better understand what they have really been
risking (beyond simply getting caught cheating).

Thanks,
Rick

Tina and Kirk Willett wrote:

>If the hematological limits are respected, some athletes stand to gain as
>little as a few percent, while others can be transformed within their
>competitive peer-groups. Many athletes know what they stand to gain as an
>individual, both in performance and in business, when making choices.
>
>Hopefully, things are beginning to move in a better direction.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
>Behalf Of Mike Murray
>Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 3:38 PM
>To: obra@list.obra.org
>Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] horrible day for bike racing.
>
>Brian Baumann asked:
>"Could Lance have possible dominated all of these guys that were doping,
>without doing so himself?"
>
>Yes. Whether he did or not is a different question about which we have lots
>on conjecture but little real information. The bigger point is that any
>advantage offered by use of doping is much less then the difference between
>individuals. Using good performance as a marker of doping use is a bad
>understanding of the process.
>
>With regards to doping way too much emphasis is put on the cheating aspect
>when it should more appropriately be put on the substance abuse aspect.
>
>Mike Murray
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>OBRA mailing list
>obra@list.obra.org
>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>OBRA mailing list
>obra@list.obra.org
>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>


Tina and Kirk Willett

2006-07-02

If the hematological limits are respected, some athletes stand to gain as
little as a few percent, while others can be transformed within their
competitive peer-groups. Many athletes know what they stand to gain as an
individual, both in performance and in business, when making choices.

Hopefully, things are beginning to move in a better direction.

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Mike Murray
Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 3:38 PM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] horrible day for bike racing.

Brian Baumann asked:
"Could Lance have possible dominated all of these guys that were doping,
without doing so himself?"

Yes. Whether he did or not is a different question about which we have lots
on conjecture but little real information. The bigger point is that any
advantage offered by use of doping is much less then the difference between
individuals. Using good performance as a marker of doping use is a bad
understanding of the process.

With regards to doping way too much emphasis is put on the cheating aspect
when it should more appropriately be put on the substance abuse aspect.

Mike Murray

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Ron and Dorothy Strasser

2006-06-30

I would venture to say that the fact that these guys are making good money "being a winner" has a great deal to do with WHY they are using drugs (if in fact they are). The pressure to stay on top, or support their family/lifestyle and or ego would be enough for them to take that chance in my mind. It is a natural trait to try to be the best. It just seems so risky from my perspective. I personally would much rather be "my" best instead of the best through the use of chemistry. We just know so much now with regard to nutrition etc. I could see how these guys move on to the illegal stuff as it may seem like a small step from other legal things they are ingesting... but they do KNOW what they are doing and should be held accountable.
On the other hand. If these folks are PROFESSIONAL and the governing body decided that the Pros could use drugs then we would see what chemistry could do. The good and the bad. The amateurs could race against each other CLEAN. It is a bummer though when you read about the feats of these individuals and hold them in high esteem... just to have this charge brought against them.
So we move on and hope for our other favorites.

----- Original Message -----
From: Dan H
To: RCJohnson1@attglobal.net ; erikv@fusium.com
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 6:10 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] horrible day for bike racing.

First Star is fired from "The View" and now this. I'm so distraught I can hardly get out of bed!

----- Original Message -----
From: Rick C Johnson
To: erikv@fusium.com
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 7:39 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] horrible day for bike racing.

Yea, very ugly indeed.

Rick

Erik Voldengen wrote:
I'm sure most of you have heard of Operación Puerto by now.

Big news today.I see Steve Holland just sent a link.

If you haven't heard anything about this yet, I put a very brief summary up at http://www.erikv.com/blog/index.cfm/2006/6/30/A-horrible-day-for-bike-racing.

What a let down.

___

Erik Voldengen
Fusium, Inc.
2037 NW Lovejoy
Portland, OR 97209
503-226-7099
www.fusium.com

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Lisa Mellinger

2006-06-30

KUDOS! Thank you for even suggesting this! I'm def of the opitimistic nature!!

~ lisa

Rick C Johnson wrote:
Brian Baumann wrote:
"Could Lanced have possible dominated all of these guys
that were doping, without doing so himself?"

That's a question sure to divide the pessimists from the optimists. The
pessimist would surely see guilt by association; if all the guys doping
couldn't beat Lance then of course they all just had to be doping.
The optimist could easily take the opposite view; Lance's one-in-million
generics (presumed) made some competitors desperate enough to resort to
doping to be able to compete with him.

Personally as much as I admire the concept of "all men are created
equal" I know that when it comes to genetics it just doesn't apply. It
sure would be nice if there was way to know for sure the truth of the
matter. I doubt there'll ever be enough incontrovertible proof to
convince everybody one way or the other.

Rick

Brian Baumann wrote:

>"Probably too much to expect, but it would be a
>pleasant change for the
>focus
>to be on results rather than are they or are they not
>taking drugs."
>
>That's the problem, there is so much money involved in
>pro sports (baseball, football, cycling, etc.) that
>the focus on results means the need to use any means
>necesasry to get them.
>I wanted to believe that some of these guys are just
>that much stronger and dedicated, but I guess not.
>Could Lanced have possible dominated all of these guys
>that were doping, without doing so himself? :(
>
>
>__________________________________________________
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Dan H

2006-06-30

Aren't we convicting before there is proof?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Omer Kem"
To: "Malcolm, Gary" ;
Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 7:59 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] horrible day for bike racing.

> Support Doug and Evan. They are clean "pro" riders....
>
>
> Omer
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Dan H

2006-06-30

First Star is fired from "The View" and now this. I'm so distraught I can hardly get out of bed!

----- Original Message -----
From: Rick C Johnson
To: erikv@fusium.com
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 7:39 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] horrible day for bike racing.

Yea, very ugly indeed.

Rick

Erik Voldengen wrote:
I'm sure most of you have heard of Operación Puerto by now.

Big news today.I see Steve Holland just sent a link.

If you haven't heard anything about this yet, I put a very brief summary up at http://www.erikv.com/blog/index.cfm/2006/6/30/A-horrible-day-for-bike-racing.

What a let down.

___

Erik Voldengen
Fusium, Inc.
2037 NW Lovejoy
Portland, OR 97209
503-226-7099
www.fusium.com

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Mike Murray

2006-06-30

Brian Baumann asked:
"Could Lance have possible dominated all of these guys that were doping,
without doing so himself?"

Yes. Whether he did or not is a different question about which we have lots
on conjecture but little real information. The bigger point is that any
advantage offered by use of doping is much less then the difference between
individuals. Using good performance as a marker of doping use is a bad
understanding of the process.

With regards to doping way too much emphasis is put on the cheating aspect
when it should more appropriately be put on the substance abuse aspect.

Mike Murray


Jess Mace

2006-06-30

its still going on...Vino just got kicked...

Jess C. Mace
Otolaryngology Clinical and Outcomes Research
Coordinator with Dr. Timothy Smith
Head and Neck Surgery
Oregon Health & Science University
503.494.5886

>>> "Greenwood, Mark" 6/30/2006 1:12 PM >>>
Actually, doesn't the policy kind of make sense? Otherwise, teams could
make a strategy of just maintaining a backup cadre of "undoped" riders,
and when one of their major players fails the doping control (none of
them think they're going to get caught, right?), they just sub one of
the clean guys in... the team's not weakened that much... just implement
Plan B.

Under the present policy, at least if you send doped riders, you're
running the risk of having to race a man (or more) short if they get
caught.

Mark

-----Original Message-----
From: Joe Cipale [mailto:joec@aracnet.com]
Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 11:06 AM
To: Ben Rasche
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] horrible day for bike racing.

I suspect it has to do with the setting of rosters and some other
UCI/Societe de TOur nonsense.

Joe

Ben Rasche wrote:

> Can anyone explain why the riders can not be replaced. I applaud the
pulli=
> ng of the riders in question, but just don't understand why they can
not be=
> replaced by other clean teammates. It would be great to see some
other ri=
> ders, who deserve the chance, get that chance.... plus seeing full
teams. =
> Good thing there is no TTT this year.
> =20
> Thanks, Ben
>
>
>
>
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Greenwood, Mark

2006-06-30

Actually, doesn't the policy kind of make sense? Otherwise, teams could
make a strategy of just maintaining a backup cadre of "undoped" riders,
and when one of their major players fails the doping control (none of
them think they're going to get caught, right?), they just sub one of
the clean guys in... the team's not weakened that much... just implement
Plan B.

Under the present policy, at least if you send doped riders, you're
running the risk of having to race a man (or more) short if they get
caught.

Mark

-----Original Message-----
From: Joe Cipale [mailto:joec@aracnet.com]
Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 11:06 AM
To: Ben Rasche
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] horrible day for bike racing.

I suspect it has to do with the setting of rosters and some other
UCI/Societe de TOur nonsense.

Joe

Ben Rasche wrote:

> Can anyone explain why the riders can not be replaced. I applaud the
pulli=
> ng of the riders in question, but just don't understand why they can
not be=
> replaced by other clean teammates. It would be great to see some
other ri=
> ders, who deserve the chance, get that chance.... plus seeing full
teams. =
> Good thing there is no TTT this year.
> =20
> Thanks, Ben
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> _________________________________________________________________
> Try Live.com - your fast, personalized homepage with all the things
you car=
> e about in one place.
> http://www.live.com/getstarted=


Thomas Hoffman

2006-06-30

Although I am bummed about not seeing Jan and Ivan go at it, I am glad that
the Team Leadership has decided to bench it stars. I think goes a long way
to help the sport out of this doping issue that has plagued our sport.

If the allegations prove to be true, and all 58 riders go down, how would it
look to future sponsors to have to revoke the wins of the tow major tours,
or even have the win tainted by a doper? Do you think T-Mobile or CSC
would continue to pour money into the sport? By benching the two most
watched riders, I think it will help the teams in the future, and tells the
rest of the peleton to stay clean. I doubt anything else would show the
sponsors a commitment to cleaning up the sport.

This does open the door for Levi, Floyd, and George. And wouldn't it be nice
to see Bobby, or David take op the team Leader role? I think the prospects
are good for a USA sweep of the podium, just wish the race was straight up
and Jan and Ivan were there.

Tom


Joe Cipale

2006-06-30

I suspect it has to do with the setting of rosters and some other UCI/Societe de TOur nonsense.

Joe

Ben Rasche wrote:

> Can anyone explain why the riders can not be replaced. I applaud the pulli=
> ng of the riders in question, but just don't understand why they can not be=
> replaced by other clean teammates. It would be great to see some other ri=
> ders, who deserve the chance, get that chance.... plus seeing full teams. =
> Good thing there is no TTT this year.
> =20
> Thanks, Ben
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> _________________________________________________________________
> Try Live.com - your fast, personalized homepage with all the things you car=
> e about in one place.
> http://www.live.com/getstarted=


jakebigham

2006-06-30

I would guess that the managers committee and the tour organizers
agreed to this as a sort of penalty.
I think that cycling has to go through this kind of crisis for
riders, managers, coaches, and teams to finally come to the
conclusion that the risks of doping have finally out stripped the
benefits. No matter how painful it is well past time to clean house.
Cycling has the highest percentage of doping related DSQs of any
olympic sport (higher that power-lifting, 100 meter, or any other
track event).
It is sad that it must happen on the eve of the tour, when the PR
will have the most negative blow-back, but it is time to get much
more serious about ban substances. Lower the boom enough times and
the message will go out to tomorrow's pros.
It will be interesting to see how Basso, Ulrich, and the rest of the
58 deal with this. They will get their day in court sometime soon,
their guilt should not be assumed (though it doesn't sound good, it
is currently guilt by association). All that is certain is that the
are out of the tour.
Anyway- two Americans on the podium this year?
On Jun 30, 2006, at 9:57 AM, Leibowitz, Flo wrote:

> As I understand it, when a rider fails to pass the medical check,
> the rider can't be replaced, and the Tour is choosing to see these
> exclusions as failing the medical check.
>
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org on behalf of Ben Rasche
> Sent: Fri 6/30/2006 9:36 AM
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] horrible day for bike racing.
>
> Can anyone explain why the riders can not be replaced. I applaud
> the pulling of the riders in question, but just don't understand
> why they can not be replaced by other clean teammates. It would be
> great to see some other riders, who deserve the chance, get that
> chance.... plus seeing full teams. Good thing there is no TTT this
> year.
>
> Thanks, Ben
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> Be one of the first to try Windows Live Mail beta Windows Live Mail
> beta
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> obra@list.obra.org
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Leibowitz, Flo

2006-06-30

As I understand it, when a rider fails to pass the medical check, the rider can't be replaced, and the Tour is choosing to see these exclusions as failing the medical check.

________________________________

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org on behalf of Ben Rasche
Sent: Fri 6/30/2006 9:36 AM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] horrible day for bike racing.

Can anyone explain why the riders can not be replaced. I applaud the pulling of the riders in question, but just don't understand why they can not be replaced by other clean teammates. It would be great to see some other riders, who deserve the chance, get that chance.... plus seeing full teams. Good thing there is no TTT this year.

Thanks, Ben

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Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

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Rick C Johnson

2006-06-30

And speaking of all bets being off:

*Internet Bookmakers' odds for Tour de France
*/(As of 5:00 p.m. Friday)/

* Alejandro Valverde (ILL) -7/2
* Alexandre Vinokourov (Wur) -7/2
* Levi Leipheimer (Ger) -7/1
* Floyd Landis (Pho) -7/1
* Cadel Evans (Dav) -10/1
* Yaroslav Popovych (Dis) -12/1
* Paolo Savoldelli (Dis) -20/1
* Andreas Kloden (T-M) -20/1
* Michael Rasmussen (Rab) -25/1
* Denis Menchov (Rab) -25/1
* George Hincapie (Dis) -25/1
* Iban Mayo (Eus) -25/1
* Jose Azevedo (Dis) -25/1
* Christophe Moreau (Ag2) -33/1

http://www.velonews.com/tour2006/news/articles/10182.0.html

Rick

Curt Dewees wrote:

> Come on, Keith! Now Chris Horner has a chance to win!!! This could be
> a very exciting tour, now that all the unknowns get to take charge for
> a change!
>
> On 6/30/06, *Keith A. Prior* > wrote:
>
> I don't even want to watch it now.
>
> -K
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
>
> [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> ]On
> Behalf Of Joe Cipale
> Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 9:13 AM
> To: RCJohnson1@attglobal.net
> Cc: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] horrible day for bike racing.
>
>
> Your argument frames perfectly the discussion about religion
> between the
> believers and non-believers. 'You gotta have faith...'
>
> Joe
>
> P.S. - No.. this is not meant to start a religious 'flame war'. I
> was simply
> pointing out the commonalities of the argument(s).
>
> Rick C Johnson wrote:
>
> >
> > Personally as much as I admire the concept of "all men are created
> > equal" I know that when it comes to genetics it just doesn't
> apply. It
> > sure would be nice if there was way to know for sure the truth
> of the
> > matter. I doubt there'll ever be enough incontrovertible proof to
> > convince everybody one way or the other.
> >
> > Rick
> >
> > Brian Baumann wrote:
> >
> > >"Probably too much to expect, but it would be a
> > >pleasant change for the
> > >focus
> > >to be on results rather than are they or are they not
> > >taking drugs."
> > >
> > >That's the problem, there is so much money involved in
> > >pro sports (baseball, football, cycling, etc.) that
> > >the focus on results means the need to use any means
> > >necesasry to get them.
> > >I wanted to believe that some of these guys are just
> > >that much stronger and dedicated, but I guess not.
> > >Could Lanced have possible dominated all of these guys
> > >that were doping, without doing so himself? :(
> > >
> > >
> > >__________________________________________________
> > >Do You Yahoo!?
> > >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > >http://mail.yahoo.com
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >OBRA mailing list
> > >obra@list.obra.org
> > >http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > >Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
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>
>


Ben Rasche

2006-06-30

Can anyone explain why the riders can not be replaced. I applaud the pulling of the riders in question, but just don't understand why they can not be replaced by other clean teammates. It would be great to see some other riders, who deserve the chance, get that chance.... plus seeing full teams. Good thing there is no TTT this year.

Thanks, Ben

_______________________________________________
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Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
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Mark Baldwin

2006-06-30

Seriously, or for GC how about Leipheimer or Landis, or who knows,
Zabriskie could emerge as CSC's white knight (ok admitted long shot
there). Plus it should be an interesting year to see who gets green
(too bad Petachhi broke his knee cap). Just record, or get up, early
and watch the OLN live coverage and you'll probably hear less about
the doping scandal if that will help.

On Jun 30, 2006, at 9:19 AM, Curt Dewees wrote:

> Come on, Keith! Now Chris Horner has a chance to win!!! This could
> be a very exciting tour, now that all the unknowns get to take
> charge for a change!
>
> On 6/30/06, Keith A. Prior wrote:
> I don't even want to watch it now.
>
> -K
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org]On
> Behalf Of Joe Cipale
> Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 9:13 AM
> To: RCJohnson1@attglobal.net
> Cc: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] horrible day for bike racing.
>
>
> Your argument frames perfectly the discussion about religion
> between the
> believers and non-believers. 'You gotta have faith...'
>
> Joe
>
> P.S. - No.. this is not meant to start a religious 'flame war'. I
> was simply
> pointing out the commonalities of the argument(s).
>
> Rick C Johnson wrote:
>
> >
> > Personally as much as I admire the concept of "all men are created
> > equal" I know that when it comes to genetics it just doesn't
> apply. It
> > sure would be nice if there was way to know for sure the truth of
> the
> > matter. I doubt there'll ever be enough incontrovertible proof to
> > convince everybody one way or the other.
> >
> > Rick
> >
> > Brian Baumann wrote:
> >
> > >"Probably too much to expect, but it would be a
> > >pleasant change for the
> > >focus
> > >to be on results rather than are they or are they not
> > >taking drugs."
> > >
> > >That's the problem, there is so much money involved in
> > >pro sports (baseball, football, cycling, etc.) that
> > >the focus on results means the need to use any means
> > >necesasry to get them.
> > >I wanted to believe that some of these guys are just
> > >that much stronger and dedicated, but I guess not.
> > >Could Lanced have possible dominated all of these guys
> > >that were doping, without doing so himself? :(
> > >
> > >
> > >__________________________________________________
> > >Do You Yahoo!?
> > >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > >http://mail.yahoo.com
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >OBRA mailing list
> > >obra@list.obra.org
> > >http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > >Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


Curt Dewees

2006-06-30

Come on, Keith! Now Chris Horner has a chance to win!!! This could be a
very exciting tour, now that all the unknowns get to take charge for a
change!

On 6/30/06, Keith A. Prior wrote:
>
> I don't even want to watch it now.
>
> -K
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org]On
> Behalf Of Joe Cipale
> Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 9:13 AM
> To: RCJohnson1@attglobal.net
> Cc: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] horrible day for bike racing.
>
>
> Your argument frames perfectly the discussion about religion between the
> believers and non-believers. 'You gotta have faith...'
>
> Joe
>
> P.S. - No.. this is not meant to start a religious 'flame war'. I was
> simply
> pointing out the commonalities of the argument(s).
>
> Rick C Johnson wrote:
>
> >
> > Personally as much as I admire the concept of "all men are created
> > equal" I know that when it comes to genetics it just doesn't apply. It
> > sure would be nice if there was way to know for sure the truth of the
> > matter. I doubt there'll ever be enough incontrovertible proof to
> > convince everybody one way or the other.
> >
> > Rick
> >
> > Brian Baumann wrote:
> >
> > >"Probably too much to expect, but it would be a
> > >pleasant change for the
> > >focus
> > >to be on results rather than are they or are they not
> > >taking drugs."
> > >
> > >That's the problem, there is so much money involved in
> > >pro sports (baseball, football, cycling, etc.) that
> > >the focus on results means the need to use any means
> > >necesasry to get them.
> > >I wanted to believe that some of these guys are just
> > >that much stronger and dedicated, but I guess not.
> > >Could Lanced have possible dominated all of these guys
> > >that were doping, without doing so himself? :(
> > >
> > >
> > >__________________________________________________
> > >Do You Yahoo!?
> > >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > >http://mail.yahoo.com
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >OBRA mailing list
> > >obra@list.obra.org
> > >http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > >Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>


Keith A. Prior

2006-06-30

I don't even want to watch it now.

-K

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org]On
Behalf Of Joe Cipale
Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 9:13 AM
To: RCJohnson1@attglobal.net
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] horrible day for bike racing.

Your argument frames perfectly the discussion about religion between the
believers and non-believers. 'You gotta have faith...'

Joe

P.S. - No.. this is not meant to start a religious 'flame war'. I was simply
pointing out the commonalities of the argument(s).

Rick C Johnson wrote:

>
> Personally as much as I admire the concept of "all men are created
> equal" I know that when it comes to genetics it just doesn't apply. It
> sure would be nice if there was way to know for sure the truth of the
> matter. I doubt there'll ever be enough incontrovertible proof to
> convince everybody one way or the other.
>
> Rick
>
> Brian Baumann wrote:
>
> >"Probably too much to expect, but it would be a
> >pleasant change for the
> >focus
> >to be on results rather than are they or are they not
> >taking drugs."
> >
> >That's the problem, there is so much money involved in
> >pro sports (baseball, football, cycling, etc.) that
> >the focus on results means the need to use any means
> >necesasry to get them.
> >I wanted to believe that some of these guys are just
> >that much stronger and dedicated, but I guess not.
> >Could Lanced have possible dominated all of these guys
> >that were doping, without doing so himself? :(
> >
> >
> >__________________________________________________
> >Do You Yahoo!?
> >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> >http://mail.yahoo.com
> >_______________________________________________
> >OBRA mailing list
> >obra@list.obra.org
> >http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> >Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________
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Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


Joe Cipale

2006-06-30

Your argument frames perfectly the discussion about religion between the
believers and non-believers. 'You gotta have faith...'

Joe

P.S. - No.. this is not meant to start a religious 'flame war'. I was simply
pointing out the commonalities of the argument(s).

Rick C Johnson wrote:

>
> Personally as much as I admire the concept of "all men are created
> equal" I know that when it comes to genetics it just doesn't apply. It
> sure would be nice if there was way to know for sure the truth of the
> matter. I doubt there'll ever be enough incontrovertible proof to
> convince everybody one way or the other.
>
> Rick
>
> Brian Baumann wrote:
>
> >"Probably too much to expect, but it would be a
> >pleasant change for the
> >focus
> >to be on results rather than are they or are they not
> >taking drugs."
> >
> >That's the problem, there is so much money involved in
> >pro sports (baseball, football, cycling, etc.) that
> >the focus on results means the need to use any means
> >necesasry to get them.
> >I wanted to believe that some of these guys are just
> >that much stronger and dedicated, but I guess not.
> >Could Lanced have possible dominated all of these guys
> >that were doping, without doing so himself? :(
> >
> >
> >__________________________________________________
> >Do You Yahoo!?
> >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> >http://mail.yahoo.com
> >_______________________________________________
> >OBRA mailing list
> >obra@list.obra.org
> >http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> >Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


Rick C Johnson

2006-06-30

Brian Baumann wrote:
"Could Lanced have possible dominated all of these guys
that were doping, without doing so himself?"

That's a question sure to divide the pessimists from the optimists. The
pessimist would surely see guilt by association; if all the guys doping
couldn't beat Lance then of course they all just had to be doping.
The optimist could easily take the opposite view; Lance's one-in-million
generics (presumed) made some competitors desperate enough to resort to
doping to be able to compete with him.

Personally as much as I admire the concept of "all men are created
equal" I know that when it comes to genetics it just doesn't apply. It
sure would be nice if there was way to know for sure the truth of the
matter. I doubt there'll ever be enough incontrovertible proof to
convince everybody one way or the other.

Rick

Brian Baumann wrote:

>"Probably too much to expect, but it would be a
>pleasant change for the
>focus
>to be on results rather than are they or are they not
>taking drugs."
>
>That's the problem, there is so much money involved in
>pro sports (baseball, football, cycling, etc.) that
>the focus on results means the need to use any means
>necesasry to get them.
>I wanted to believe that some of these guys are just
>that much stronger and dedicated, but I guess not.
>Could Lanced have possible dominated all of these guys
>that were doping, without doing so himself? :(
>
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>http://mail.yahoo.com
>_______________________________________________
>OBRA mailing list
>obra@list.obra.org
>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>


Ryan Ness

2006-06-30

Copied from cyclingnews.com (ok, maybe he's still telling lies, but I'm
giving him the benefit of the doubt.) - he's right, it's not horrible news,
it's 'fantastic news'.
David Millar is ready

In the midst of all the doping scandals going on in the Tour, there is a
certain irony about the return of David Millar to racing. After police
searched his home in 2004, Millar admitted to using EPO to win the 2003
world time trial championships (among other races), and received a two year
suspension that has just run its course. Millar said that he is now ready to
race without doping, and called the events in Spain "fantastic news".

"Cycling is the most beautiful sport in the world," said the Brit on
Thursday. "I had to watch the 2005 Tour de France on TV, and I felt excited,
just like a child. I realised I was very lucky that my first race back would
be the Tour. I needed to believe in myself and work hard. Fortunately, many
people trusted me: the British team, Mauro Gianetti, Matxin and the Saunier
Duval-Prodir team, and, of course, my family. It´s like a new beginning;
everything is new to me.

"I want to prove that it is definitely possible to win without doping,"
Millar told *Sportwereld.be*. "I don't want any more ambiguity. "I am now
one hundred percent clean. In the years left in my career, I will have to
convince the fans, my colleagues, and the journalists that I am now an
honest rider. I hope that my story is a positive message for this sport. I
f**ked up: I lied, I did wrong, I cheated, and I have to live with that now.
I hope that the new generation of riders can gain the respect of the public.
It's already proven by the scandals in Spain that the sport doesn't deserve
that respect yet. Cycling will also need years to build up its credibility
again."

"It's going in the right direction, I really mean that. What happened in
Spain in the last weeks is fantastic news. Through those sort of anti-doping
actions, the organised doping networks will be slowly dismantled. The belief
that you can't win without doping, must stop. It's up to the current riders
to convince the younger generations."

On 6/30/06, Joe Cipale wrote:
>
> ~splorfff~
>
> Where the hell was the smiley at, Ryan?
>
>
> :^)
>
> Joe
>
> P.S. - You owe me a new keyboard.
>
> Ryan Ness wrote:
>
> > DAVID MILLAR
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 6/30/06, Malcolm, Gary wrote:
> > >
> > > Can someone just give me the name of a CLEAN rider I can support...
> for
> > > the
> > > love of pete!
> > >
> > > Gary MAlcolm
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Rick C Johnson [mailto:RCJohnson1@attglobal.net]
> > > Sent: June 30, 2006 7:40 AM
> > > To: erikv@fusium.com
> > > Cc: obra@list.obra.org
> > > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] horrible day for bike racing.
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > OBRA mailing list
> > > obra@list.obra.org
> > > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > OBRA mailing list
> > > obra@list.obra.org
> > > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > http://www.nessski.blogspot.com
>
>

--
http://www.nessski.blogspot.com


Joe Cipale

2006-06-30

~splorfff~

Where the hell was the smiley at, Ryan?

:^)

Joe

P.S. - You owe me a new keyboard.

Ryan Ness wrote:

> DAVID MILLAR
>
>
>
>
> On 6/30/06, Malcolm, Gary wrote:
> >
> > Can someone just give me the name of a CLEAN rider I can support... for
> > the
> > love of pete!
> >
> > Gary MAlcolm
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Rick C Johnson [mailto:RCJohnson1@attglobal.net]
> > Sent: June 30, 2006 7:40 AM
> > To: erikv@fusium.com
> > Cc: obra@list.obra.org
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] horrible day for bike racing.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
>
>
>
> --
> http://www.nessski.blogspot.com


Brian Baumann

2006-06-30

"Probably too much to expect, but it would be a
pleasant change for the
focus
to be on results rather than are they or are they not
taking drugs."

That's the problem, there is so much money involved in
pro sports (baseball, football, cycling, etc.) that
the focus on results means the need to use any means
necesasry to get them.
I wanted to believe that some of these guys are just
that much stronger and dedicated, but I guess not.
Could Lanced have possible dominated all of these guys
that were doping, without doing so himself? :(

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


David Rosen

2006-06-30

At least the results should be completely wide open... It's anyone's game
now.

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Doug Evans
Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 8:10 AM
To: Omer Kem; Malcolm,Gary; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] horrible day for bike racing.

Once they suspend the entire field the two of them can go over there to
race against each other.

Last man standing.

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Omer Kem
Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 8:00 AM
To: Malcolm, Gary; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] horrible day for bike racing.

Support Doug and Evan. They are clean "pro" riders....

Omer
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Doug Evans

2006-06-30

Once they suspend the entire field the two of them can go over there to
race against each other.

Last man standing.

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Omer Kem
Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 8:00 AM
To: Malcolm, Gary; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] horrible day for bike racing.

Support Doug and Evan. They are clean "pro" riders....

Omer
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Contact Springbrook for information about the newly released postal address certification product, Postal Link.

The information contained in this electronic message is confidential information intended only for the use of the intended recipient(s) and contains confidential and/or privileged information belonging to Springbrook Software, Inc. or its customers or partners. Any unauthorized review, use, copying, disclosure or distribution of this message is strictly prohibited. If you are not an intended recipient of this message, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all soft and hard copies of the message and any attachments. Thank you.

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Alec Bentley

2006-06-30

Perhaps it could turn out to be a good day for professional bike racing if
the recent suspensions cause a reverse in the trend of the increased use of
banned substances over the last couple of decades.

Probably too much to expect, but it would be a pleasant change for the focus
to be on results rather than are they or are they not taking drugs.

Alec Bentley

>From: "Erik Voldengen"
>Reply-To: erikv@fusium.com
>To:
>Subject: [OBRA Chat] horrible day for bike racing.
>Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 07:29:28 -0700
>
>I?m sure most of you have heard of Operaci?n Puerto by now.
>
>
>
>Big news today?I see Steve Holland just sent a link.
>
>
>
>If you haven?t heard anything about this yet, I put a very brief summary up
>at
>http://www.erikv.com/blog/index.cfm/2006/6/30/A-horrible-day-for-bike-racing
>.
>
>
>
>What a let down.
>
>
>
>___
>
>
>Erik Voldengen
>Fusium, Inc.
>
>2037 NW Lovejoy
>Portland, OR 97209
>
>503-226-7099
>www.fusium.com
>
> Fusium
>
>
>
><< image001.gif >>

>_______________________________________________
>OBRA mailing list
>obra@list.obra.org
>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


Omer Kem

2006-06-30

Support Doug and Evan. They are clean "pro" riders....

Omer


Ryan Ness

2006-06-30

DAVID MILLAR

On 6/30/06, Malcolm, Gary wrote:
>
> Can someone just give me the name of a CLEAN rider I can support... for
> the
> love of pete!
>
> Gary MAlcolm
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rick C Johnson [mailto:RCJohnson1@attglobal.net]
> Sent: June 30, 2006 7:40 AM
> To: erikv@fusium.com
> Cc: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] horrible day for bike racing.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

--
http://www.nessski.blogspot.com


Malcolm, Gary

2006-06-30

Can someone just give me the name of a CLEAN rider I can support... for the
love of pete!

Gary MAlcolm

-----Original Message-----
From: Rick C Johnson [mailto:RCJohnson1@attglobal.net]
Sent: June 30, 2006 7:40 AM
To: erikv@fusium.com
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] horrible day for bike racing.

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


Rick C Johnson

2006-06-30

Yea, very ugly indeed.



Rick



Erik Voldengen wrote:






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I’m sure most of you
have heard of
Operación
Puerto
by now.


 


Big news today…I see
Steve Holland
just sent a link. 


 


If you haven’t heard
anything about this yet, I put
a very brief summary up at http://www.erikv.com/blog/index.cfm/2006/6/30/A-horrible-day-for-bike-racing.


 


What a let down.


 


___






Erik
Voldengen

Fusium, Inc.




2037
NW Lovejoy

Portland, OR 97209




503-226-7099

www.fusium.com




Fusium






 






_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


Erik Voldengen

2006-06-30

I?m sure most of you have heard of Operación Puerto by now.

Big news today?I see Steve Holland just sent a link.

If you haven?t heard anything about this yet, I put a very brief summary up
at
http://www.erikv.com/blog/index.cfm/2006/6/30/A-horrible-day-for-bike-racing
.

What a let down.

___

Erik Voldengen
Fusium, Inc.

2037 NW Lovejoy
Portland, OR 97209

503-226-7099
www.fusium.com

Fusium