Peter Gierga

Hard to say what the situation is. One thing for sure though, I am happy

with any race that some go's through all the effort to put on.It must be

alot of work. Take alot of personal time and dedication. Personaly I could

care less about prize money, free stuff,age groups,entrie fees,start

times,the course.....what ever.Its one of those choice things, feel like

racing go race. Feel like fishing, go fishing. Its fun to go blow the

carbon out and see what happens. I do have a question.... after 13 years of

racing I need to know how tell if I'm a "Roadie" or a "Mountain Biker". Or

maybe... I just like to ride my bike's. How about you?

               All the Best, Peter



 From: Dave Campbell <amyd-@teleport.com>

Reply-To: amyd-@teleport.com

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Mtn Bike Racing

Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 23:08:51 -0700



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Greetings, OBRA folks:



Numbers are down for mountain bike attendance all over the state this

year. In some cases, WAY down. We work hard to put on a good show in

Newport (and I believe we do) and the riders rave about it and yet we had

the lowest turnout in the last five years! In fact, only our first year

(run on a shoestring and only thrown together two months before with

minimal publicity and no attachment to a series) had lower numbers! Race

Around the Bend had over 500 a couple yrs ago, and barely broke 200 this

year. Any thoughts? Has mountain biking in general just peaked?

Obviously numbers are just one measure of a successful event, but my race

is a fund raiser and less riders means less funding for our programs.

Would love any input. THanks.



DC

amyd-@teleport.com



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tyler pinard

I think there are a few reasons the attendance has dropped off.

1- courses that are very flat and cause true mountain bikers to lose to our

road friends (ouch!)

2-inflation of fuel prices (I've heard as many as 25% drop in vacation plans

from travelers)

3-poor scheduling (conflicts etc.)

4-AND HERE I GO AGAIN -the lack of a definate class separation of pro and

expert. let's think about this, if your'e coming up and having fun racing

you're peers that is a huge motivation. if you look in the eyes of a sport

and see shaun doyle or eric tonkin or steve larsen as future competition

would you move up or find friends to ride with instead?

the move to combine these catagories has changed my attendance. that is a

simple fact. i finish pretty well at the smaller races and will probably

continue to do them, but i have no wish to drive for hours and spend

hundreds of dollars to race guys way out of my league.last year i raced 16

races this year i'll probably do 10 because of this.

to say there isn't enough pros to warrant separation doesn't wash with me it

should't be just about the pros it should promote healthy competition.

for if we don't get some new blood infused there won't be any pros or races

for that matter.

respectfully,

tyler

----- Original Message -----

From: Dave Campbell <amyd-@teleport.com>

To: <ob-@topica.com>

Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 11:08 PM

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Mtn Bike Racing





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Greetings, OBRA folks:



Numbers are down for mountain bike attendance all over the state this

year. In some cases, WAY down. We work hard to put on a good show in

Newport (and I believe we do) and the riders rave about it and yet we had

the lowest turnout in the last five years! In fact, only our first year

(run on a shoestring and only thrown together two months before with

minimal publicity and no attachment to a series) had lower numbers! Race

Around the Bend had over 500 a couple yrs ago, and barely broke 200 this

year. Any thoughts? Has mountain biking in general just peaked?

Obviously numbers are just one measure of a successful event, but my race

is a fund raiser and less riders means less funding for our programs.

Would love any input. THanks.



DC

amyd-@teleport.com



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Emily Thurston

Anyone want to save on gas Sunday?



Looking for a ride from PDX (PSU/Goose Hollow area) to Silverton =

crit. I will do the Women race at 11:10 as well as the Cat. 3 race =

at 2:30-3:20. Even if you can only do 1 leg, let me know, perhaps =

I can go down with one person and ride back with someonw else.



Thanks, Emily



--- Forwarded Message from Jerry Powell <psu0-@pdx.edu> ---



...the same folks that gripe=20

about the cost of entries will go out and spend the bucks on=20

something else. Fuel cost might be an issue for travel to races =

that=20

are far from a population center, but how often do you see a =

car-full=20

of racers arriving for a race? (...even more true of MTB racers =

than=20

of roadies)=20

Jonathan Puskas

My race is reasonably priced for a number of reasons.

    First, I receive exceptional support our sponsors.

Particularly from River City Bicycles (they pay for

the park permit and provide a significant portion of

the prizes--It is estimated that their commitment to

the race will approach $2000). Peter Kukula has also

been a fantastic supporter by providing Vittoria

Tires.



    Second, Torani/NW Velo considers throwing this

race an obligation to the cycling community. Simply

put, we have no aspirations of generating profits.

Ask Brian O'Neil how little support we provide him and

you'll understand the impact of our decision not to

seek profitability (he has to beg us for Track

fees--and he's an OBRA Champ in the Pursuit!).



    Third, we aren't faced with some of the expenses

which other Race Directors must cope with such as

renting Police Support (ours is a closed course),

port-a-potties (the park provides), and other fees

which can significantly increase the cost of racing.



    Fourth, as a mid-week race, we couldn't generate

racer interest if we charged $35. On the other hand,

our races are also a bit shorter and our prize list

(while very nice) isn't going to break any records.



Finally, I think it is important to note that I

believe all the RDs out there are doing the best they

can given their cost structures and constraints. We

at the Mt. Tabor Series will do our best and I think

the other races will also provide excellent

experiences.



I look forward to seeing you all at the races!



Jonathan C. Puskas

Torani/NW Velo

--- cumm-@ucs.orst.edu wrote:

 
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My only comment from earlier John is why is your

race reasonably priced, on

the surface and others seem expensive.



Again, we must all reconcile our desire to race with

our ability to afford

it and meet somewhere in the middle.



I for one don't complain, if I don't want to play, I

don't pay simple as

that. The decision to race lies with the individual

racer the promoter.



-----Original Message-----

From: Jonathan Puskas [mailto:impu-@yahoo.com]

Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 11:47 AM

To: cumm-@ucs.orst.edu; amyd-@teleport.com;

ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Mtn Bike Racing

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I'll go out on a limb here...



As the promoter of the Mt. Tabor Series (Wednesday

evenings June 13, 20, 27 and July 11), I'd like to

help "grow the sport." So I'm putting my money

where

my mouth is.



For every newly registered OBRA membership (annual)

paid for at the Mt. Tabor Series, I'll let the new

racer race their first race for free. In addition,

if

an experienced racer brings the new racer (and

registers them), I'll knock $5 off their race entry

(limit of $5 per experienced racer per night).



Now go out and recruit!



Cheers,

Jonathan C. Puskas







=====

Jonathan C. Puskas

159 Fifth Street

Lake Oswego, OR 97034

impu-@yahoo.com



"If you're gonna charge...charge hard!"



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=====

Jonathan C. Puskas

159 Fifth Street

Lake Oswego, OR 97034

impu-@yahoo.com



"If you're gonna charge...charge hard!"



__________________________________________________

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cumm-@ucs.orst.edu

My only comment from earlier John is why is your race reasonably priced, on

the surface and others seem expensive.



Again, we must all reconcile our desire to race with our ability to afford

it and meet somewhere in the middle.



I for one don't complain, if I don't want to play, I don't pay simple as

that. The decision to race lies with the individual racer the promoter.



-----Original Message-----

From: Jonathan Puskas [mailto:impu-@yahoo.com]

Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 11:47 AM

To: cumm-@ucs.orst.edu; amyd-@teleport.com; ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Mtn Bike Racing





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I'll go out on a limb here...



As the promoter of the Mt. Tabor Series (Wednesday

evenings June 13, 20, 27 and July 11), I'd like to

help "grow the sport." So I'm putting my money where

my mouth is.



For every newly registered OBRA membership (annual)

paid for at the Mt. Tabor Series, I'll let the new

racer race their first race for free. In addition, if

an experienced racer brings the new racer (and

registers them), I'll knock $5 off their race entry

(limit of $5 per experienced racer per night).



Now go out and recruit!



Cheers,

Jonathan C. Puskas







=====

Jonathan C. Puskas

159 Fifth Street

Lake Oswego, OR 97034

impu-@yahoo.com



"If you're gonna charge...charge hard!"



__________________________________________________

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Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35

a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

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Jonathan Puskas

I'll go out on a limb here...



As the promoter of the Mt. Tabor Series (Wednesday

evenings June 13, 20, 27 and July 11), I'd like to

help "grow the sport." So I'm putting my money where

my mouth is.



For every newly registered OBRA membership (annual)

paid for at the Mt. Tabor Series, I'll let the new

racer race their first race for free. In addition, if

an experienced racer brings the new racer (and

registers them), I'll knock $5 off their race entry

(limit of $5 per experienced racer per night).



Now go out and recruit!



Cheers,

Jonathan C. Puskas







=====

Jonathan C. Puskas

159 Fifth Street

Lake Oswego, OR 97034

impu-@yahoo.com



"If you're gonna charge...charge hard!"



__________________________________________________

Do You Yahoo!?

Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35

a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/

Wade Waddell

As others have noted, Mt Biking has undergone a contraction in recent year(s) and we are probably see that reflected in race attendance - fewer "casual" bikers and racers.



The point I'd like to add is that having participated in several clubs, a trend comes to mind: any club withers if new blood isn't brought in. In the case of Mt Bike racing, I rode for several years before I chanced to run across a left over course marker and it suddenly dawned on me that there was such a thing at Mt Bike racing!   When I began my relentless efforts to recruit my co-workers and friends - very few of them realized there was a racing scene either.





I know races are well promoted to the biking community, but I'm not sure the existence of Mt Bike racing is being brought to the attention of casual riders that might be a source of new blood.   I wonder if something as simple as nifty OBRA posters in local bike shops would help attendance?   I know it would have got me started...



Wade



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Wade Waddell

As others have noted, Mt Biking has undergone a contraction in recent year(s) and we are probably see that reflected in race attendance - fewer "casual" bikers and racers.



The point I'd like to add is that having participated in several clubs, a trend comes to mind: any club withers if new blood isn't brought in. In the case of Mt Bike racing, I rode for several years before I chanced to run across a left over course marker and it suddenly dawned on me that there was such a thing at Mt Bike racing!   When I began my relentless efforts to recruit my co-workers and friends - very few of them realized there was a racing scene either.





I know races are well promoted to the biking community, but I'm not sure the existence of Mt Bike racing is being brought to the attention of casual riders that might be a source of new blood.   I wonder if something as simple as nifty OBRA posters in local bike shops would help attendance?   I know it would have got me started...



Wade



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Jerry Powell

Dave, Note that industry numbers are down, too... which is not

usually a good sign for racing. It could be that a spring that

didn't get wet until April has had an effect. But if you look back

at the boom and bust cycles of Bike racing in general; it's hard to

escape the impression that it may simply reflect the state of the

economy. Folks are more stressed, less likely to put in training

time, and less likely to spend on bike racing.



Certainly entry fees are an issue, but the same folks that gripe

about the cost of entries will go out and spend the bucks on

something else. Fuel cost might be an issue for travel to races that

are far from a population center, but how often do you see a car-full

of racers arriving for a race? (...even more true of MTB racers than

of roadies) Still, folks that spent last year and the year before,

in your assessment, aren't showing up this year. It would be

interesting to see (I'm sure Candi has the numbers) if there's any

pattern to race attendance this year, and if it's different than last

year.



Maybe some of the current shop owners have a better handle on this

stuff these days, and could fill in the blanks with some hard

numbers. In my opinion, faced with the likelihood of declining

numbers, a savvy race promoter has to look carefully at the

activities (events, family priorities, whatever) withwhich he's

competing and put himself squarely in their way. In the short run,

it's a game of market share. In the long run, the game is to

increase the size of the market. If you and other race organizers

are interested, we could do some seminars on event marketing at this

next winter's Cycling Conference. Interested?



Jerry Powell







At 11:08 PM -0700 5/31/01, Dave Campbell wrote:

 

Greetings, OBRA folks:



Numbers are down for mountain bike attendance all over the state this

year. In some cases, WAY down. We work hard to put on a good show in

Newport (and I believe we do) and the riders rave about it and yet we had

the lowest turnout in the last five years! In fact, only our first year

(run on a shoestring and only thrown together two months before with

minimal publicity and no attachment to a series) had lower numbers! Race

Around the Bend had over 500 a couple yrs ago, and barely broke 200 this

year. Any thoughts? Has mountain biking in general just peaked?

Obviously numbers are just one measure of a successful event, but my race

is a fund raiser and less riders means less funding for our programs.

Would love any input. THanks.



DC

amyd-@teleport.com

--

Duncan, Todd

Let's not also forget the fact that a couple years ago when Mtn. Biking came

into it's own as a sport, everyone and their dog was doing it. You had

people out there that didn't train, but liked to beat themselves up and

"race." There was a time when you'd drive around town and everyone had a

Mtn. bike in the back of their truck or on their roof. As time goes on

though, for a lot of these people, it turned out to be a fad. Now we are

left with strictly the racing type. Those that are willing to go out there

and train. I'd assume that a lot of people got fed up with losing all the

time and therefore quit racing altogether, to go out and ride the McKenzie

River trail instead. :) Just joking. If there were a way to promote courses

for the non-racing types the participation may again increase. Just a

thought.

Odd

cumm-@ucs.orst.edu

Dave, et al.,



Point: Racing has always cost a considerable amount of money, and most

likely will continue to.



I think it has been said many times, but here goes. While I recognize the

costs involved with putting on a race, and that each promoter is faced with

the same and different fee's to pay depending on race venue (i.e.,

insurance, referees are the same, land use fee's are not etc.). Since I

don't promote races I don't know if the cost of promoting as increased over

the years or not, assuming a normal economic trend, the answer is yes it has

increased.



Their is a large discrepancy however in race fees. For example, PIR cost's

$14/event, while many other OBRA races cost $25/pre-reg. and $35/day of.

While the PIR promoter may have a very different fee schedule all the

consumer see's is a significant discrepancy in entry fee's. I am not

complaining, I pay to play and live with it. If I don't want to play, I

don't pay and I go to McKenzie River, spend time with friends, family and

girlfriend. Each of us has to choose when to pay to play and when not to.



Many consumers also seem to forget that promoters have a variety of reason's

to promote a race. they range from supporting the local high school, to

making extra money for what ever reason to simply putting on a race for the

sake of it. None is more valid than the other, all have merit.



One thing I see is the unwillingness of racers to travel far from the

Portland metro area on a regular basis, while this is a general statement

and certainly does not include everyone it does include everyone at sometime

during the season for, again, various reasons. Second, the depth of the

Oregon calendar is significant. The cost of doing most of the races; road,

track, off-road, cross is daunting and significant. It is possible that

racers are picking and choosing which races to attend, meaning others will

suffer. A likely scenario here is the bigger the purse the better the

turnout. Still another is the length of the season and rider burnout.



I guess riders would like a better accounting of the money they pay, not as

a way to knit-pick, but to see where the fee's go.



Last, no one is forcing us to race, we each choose to compete and we each

choose how often to compete. Personally I would love to compete more, but

have other obligations and limitations. As a student some are financial

some are work related (for former grad students you know this one). The

choice is purely up to the consumer to come to terms with how much they can

afford and not continue to blame promoters for low turnout. Conversely, if

promoters are disappointed with turnout, maybe they need to find ways to

lower their costs. In some cases that may be difficult or impossible, and

if so, so be it.





Enjoy your riding and racing,



Gordon







Gordon



-----Original Message-----

From: Dave Campbell [mailto:amyd-@teleport.com]

Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 11:09 PM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Mtn Bike Racing





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Greetings, OBRA folks:



Numbers are down for mountain bike attendance all over the state this

year. In some cases, WAY down. We work hard to put on a good show in

Newport (and I believe we do) and the riders rave about it and yet we had

the lowest turnout in the last five years! In fact, only our first year

(run on a shoestring and only thrown together two months before with

minimal publicity and no attachment to a series) had lower numbers! Race

Around the Bend had over 500 a couple yrs ago, and barely broke 200 this

year. Any thoughts? Has mountain biking in general just peaked?

Obviously numbers are just one measure of a successful event, but my race

is a fund raiser and less riders means less funding for our programs.

Would love any input. THanks.



DC

amyd-@teleport.com



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Tim Jones

amyd-@teleport.com writes:

 Race

 Around the Bend had over 500 a couple yrs ago, and barely broke 200 this

year. Any thoughts?

I know for me it is the lack of technical courses.    I didn't do the Race

Around the Bend this year, so I can't comment on it, but last years course

was BORING.    It was a course for roadies who happened to be on a

different bike that day.    I think it will take a few years of good

courses before that race recovers.



For me it is primarily about going other places and riding challenging

terrain.    After two years of racing in Oregon, I wasn't getting that.

Now I skip the races and spend my weekends riding around the state.



What do other people think?   Do you like wider, faster courses with

plenty of passing room, or tight technical courses where you have to work

to pass?    I prefer the technical type.





-------------

Tim Jones - ti-@hotresponse.com

541 617 5021 (office)

541 408 5823 (cell)

http://www.hotresponse.com

eric.k-@kingdesign.com

and you get as much swag/cash beating your friends on a trail as you would

at a race.



-----Original Message-----

From: Brian Marcroft [mailto:Bri-@iim.ups.com]

Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 8:30 AM

To: 'amyd-@teleport.com'; ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Mtn Bike Racing



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The same weekend as the Newport race 13 mountain biker racers went and rode

the McKenzie river trail. We drove up there, rode, went out to eat and had a

great time. All this was accomplished without spending even close to the $35

it would have cost to race that day. This is something that has been run

into the ground over and over again but the high race entries and late fees

are the reason race participant numbers are down.



-----Original Message-----

From: Dave Campbell [mailto:amyd-@teleport.com]

Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 11:09 PM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Mtn Bike Racing





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Greetings, OBRA folks:



Numbers are down for mountain bike attendance all over the state

this

year. In some cases, WAY down. We work hard to put on a good show in

Newport (and I believe we do) and the riders rave about it and yet we had

the lowest turnout in the last five years! In fact, only our first year

(run on a shoestring and only thrown together two months before with

minimal publicity and no attachment to a series) had lower numbers! Race

Around the Bend had over 500 a couple yrs ago, and barely broke 200 this

year. Any thoughts? Has mountain biking in general just peaked?

Obviously numbers are just one measure of a successful event, but my race

is a fund raiser and less riders means less funding for our programs.

Would love any input. THanks.



DC

amyd-@teleport.com



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Brian Marcroft

The same weekend as the Newport race 13 mountain biker racers went and rode

the McKenzie river trail. We drove up there, rode, went out to eat and had a

great time. All this was accomplished without spending even close to the $35

it would have cost to race that day. This is something that has been run

into the ground over and over again but the high race entries and late fees

are the reason race participant numbers are down.



-----Original Message-----

From: Dave Campbell [mailto:amyd-@teleport.com]

Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 11:09 PM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Mtn Bike Racing





============================================================

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Greetings, OBRA folks:



Numbers are down for mountain bike attendance all over the state

this

year. In some cases, WAY down. We work hard to put on a good show in

Newport (and I believe we do) and the riders rave about it and yet we had

the lowest turnout in the last five years! In fact, only our first year

(run on a shoestring and only thrown together two months before with

minimal publicity and no attachment to a series) had lower numbers! Race

Around the Bend had over 500 a couple yrs ago, and barely broke 200 this

year. Any thoughts? Has mountain biking in general just peaked?

Obviously numbers are just one measure of a successful event, but my race

is a fund raiser and less riders means less funding for our programs.

Would love any input. THanks.



DC

amyd-@teleport.com



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Dave Campbell

Greetings, OBRA folks:



Numbers are down for mountain bike attendance all over the state this

year. In some cases, WAY down. We work hard to put on a good show in

Newport (and I believe we do) and the riders rave about it and yet we had

the lowest turnout in the last five years! In fact, only our first year

(run on a shoestring and only thrown together two months before with

minimal publicity and no attachment to a series) had lower numbers! Race

Around the Bend had over 500 a couple yrs ago, and barely broke 200 this

year. Any thoughts? Has mountain biking in general just peaked?

Obviously numbers are just one measure of a successful event, but my race

is a fund raiser and less riders means less funding for our programs.

Would love any input. THanks.



DC

amyd-@teleport.com