Kurt Ward

And all this time I thought our 'national sport' was dropping bombs...

On Jul 11, 2006, at 6:22 PM, Don Hanson wrote:

> Have to dissagree, Gary. Just because the
> allegations keep coming up certainly doesn't make Lance
> guilty. "Say something often enough and it becomes the
> truth" was first said by Goebles, in Hitler's
> Germany.. You must acknowledge that he was probably
> the most carefully tested and the most often tested of
> any athelete, probably ever, anywhere. His winning
> record really made everyone go to great lengths to
> "prove" he was a doper..But even the deep pocket French
> press and all the other cycle team sponsors couldn't
> find a way to discredit his acheivments..They've really
> come up with some zingers, too..but without proof.
> At least the TDF and the world cycling organizations
> are serious about putting the sport before the money,
> unlike OUR 'national sport' of beisbol..If the TDF were
> run by American$, all the big names implicated in the
> latest scandal would be right out there on the
> road..making money for their sponsors, riding with the
> IVs hanging out, denying it the whole time..
> Is the Euro system fair? Dunno, but it's their system
> and they are serious about getting drugged cyclists off
> the competative rosters..
> Don Hanson
>
> garymedley@comcast.net wrote:
>>
>> I think -- understandably -- there is a bit of
>> nationalist myopia going on here with regards to
>> Lance.
>>
>> Imagine this much "smoke" swirling around the medical
>> and drug testing records of a big-name,
>> successful Euopean rider. We'd surely surmise there
>> was a fire somewhere.
>>
>> What the pro peloton really needs is to
>> be represented by the Major League base ball players
>> union. Then you'd have to catch a rider with an
>> IV hanging out of his arm before he's suspended --
>> and he'd appeal the suspension and be back on the
>> bike within 24 hours.
>>
>> Thank for listening. Gary
>>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Don Hanson

Have to dissagree, Gary. Just because the
allegations keep coming up certainly doesn't make Lance
guilty. "Say something often enough and it becomes the
truth" was first said by Goebles, in Hitler's
Germany.. You must acknowledge that he was probably
the most carefully tested and the most often tested of
any athelete, probably ever, anywhere. His winning
record really made everyone go to great lengths to
"prove" he was a doper..But even the deep pocket French
press and all the other cycle team sponsors couldn't
find a way to discredit his acheivments..They've really
come up with some zingers, too..but without proof.
At least the TDF and the world cycling organizations
are serious about putting the sport before the money,
unlike OUR 'national sport' of beisbol..If the TDF were
run by American$, all the big names implicated in the
latest scandal would be right out there on the
road..making money for their sponsors, riding with the
IVs hanging out, denying it the whole time..
Is the Euro system fair? Dunno, but it's their system
and they are serious about getting drugged cyclists off
the competative rosters..
Don Hanson

garymedley@comcast.net wrote:
>
> I think -- understandably -- there is a bit of
> nationalist myopia going on here with regards to
> Lance.
>
> Imagine this much "smoke" swirling around the medical
> and drug testing records of a big-name,
> successful Euopean rider. We'd surely surmise there
> was a fire somewhere.
>
> What the pro peloton really needs is to
> be represented by the Major League base ball players
> union. Then you'd have to catch a rider with an
> IV hanging out of his arm before he's suspended --
> and he'd appeal the suspension and be back on the
> bike within 24 hours.
>
> Thank for listening. Gary
>

Joe Cipale

Sorry Gary...

I would have chosen a different example than the Players Union for MLB. I mean comeon, Steve Howe was suspended how many times before he was 'kicked out' of the game? Of course a large part of it had to do with the commissioner being a gutless coward (whether it was Bowie Kuhn, Bart Giamatti or the present moron, Bud Selig).

Until baseball (and football and basketball as well, for that matter) grow a pair, there will be players using PEDs and (potentially) getting away with it.

Joe

garymedley wrote:

> I think -- understandably -- there is a bit of nationalist myopia going on here with regards to Lance.
>
> Imagine this much "smoke" swirling around the medical and drug testing records of a big-name, successful Euopean rider. We'd surely surmise there was a fire somewhere.
>
> What the pro peloton really needs is to be represented by the Major League base ball players union. Then you'd have to catch a rider with an IV hanging out of his arm before he's suspended -- and he'd appeal the suspension and be back on the bike within 24 hours.
>
> Thank for listening. Gary
>
> -------------- Original message --------------
> From: Rick C Johnson
>
> > For the record "Innocent until proven guilty" is a concept America
> > adopted from European origins. Contrary to the perception of many
> > Americans it is not explicitly mentioned in the Constitution of the
> > United States but instead inferred from judicial opinions of the 5th and
> > 6th Amendments (ratified December 1791) and the 14th Amendment (ratified
> > July 1868).
> > Only the modern Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms and the French
> > Declaration of Rights of Man and of the Citizen (Adopted August 1789)
> > clearly state the concept in their governing documents.
> >
> > Rick
> >
> > Joe Cipale wrote:
> >
> > >Primary difference between US Courts and European Courts:
> > >In the US, you are innocent until proven guilty based on a preponderance of
> > evidence and the determination from a jury of one's peers.
> > >In Europe (AIR), you are guilty until you can prove your innocent.
> > >
> > >I am sure the legal eagles of OBRA can define further differences.
> > >
> > >Joe
> > >
> > >Michael O'Hair wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >>The accusations will continue well after Lance is dead. The "testimony" ag=
> > >>ainst Lance habitually comes from those with an axe to grind. The press, e=
> > >>specially the French press, will keep flogging a dead horse as long as it s=
> > >>ells their publications.=20
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>----- Original Message -----=20
> > >> From: Karen Kraus=20
> > >> To: obra@list.obra.org=20
> > >> Sent: Monday, July 10, 2006 1:39 PM
> > >> Subject: [OBRA Chat] another lance article
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Allegations Trail Armstrong Into Another Stage:
> > >> http://www.latimes.com/sports/cycling/la-sp-armstrong9jul09,0,5275381.sto=
> > >>ry?page=3D1
> > >>
> > >> The LA Times got their hands on the court documents from Lances trial in =
> > >>Texas last fall. Hmmm Lance, it may take more than your sparkling personal=
> > >>ity to shake this one off.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> > >>---
> > >> Do you Yahoo!?
> > >> Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> > >>---
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> OBRA mailing list
> > >> obra@list.obra.org
> > >> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > >> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >OBRA mailing list
> > >obra@list.obra.org
> > >http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > >Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

garymedley@comcast.net

I think -- understandably -- there is a bit of nationalist myopia going on here with regards to Lance.

Imagine this much "smoke" swirling around the medical and drug testing records of a big-name, successful Euopean rider. We'd surely surmise there was a fire somewhere.

What the pro peloton really needs is to be represented by the Major League base ball players union. Then you'd have to catch a rider with an IV hanging out of his arm before he's suspended -- and he'd appeal the suspension and be back on the bike within 24 hours.

Thank for listening. Gary

-------------- Original message --------------
From: Rick C Johnson

> For the record "Innocent until proven guilty" is a concept America
> adopted from European origins. Contrary to the perception of many
> Americans it is not explicitly mentioned in the Constitution of the
> United States but instead inferred from judicial opinions of the 5th and
> 6th Amendments (ratified December 1791) and the 14th Amendment (ratified
> July 1868).
> Only the modern Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms and the French
> Declaration of Rights of Man and of the Citizen (Adopted August 1789)
> clearly state the concept in their governing documents.
>
> Rick
>
> Joe Cipale wrote:
>
> >Primary difference between US Courts and European Courts:
> >In the US, you are innocent until proven guilty based on a preponderance of
> evidence and the determination from a jury of one's peers.
> >In Europe (AIR), you are guilty until you can prove your innocent.
> >
> >I am sure the legal eagles of OBRA can define further differences.
> >
> >Joe
> >
> >Michael O'Hair wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >>The accusations will continue well after Lance is dead. The "testimony" ag=
> >>ainst Lance habitually comes from those with an axe to grind. The press, e=
> >>specially the French press, will keep flogging a dead horse as long as it s=
> >>ells their publications.=20
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>----- Original Message -----=20
> >> From: Karen Kraus=20
> >> To: obra@list.obra.org=20
> >> Sent: Monday, July 10, 2006 1:39 PM
> >> Subject: [OBRA Chat] another lance article
> >>
> >>
> >> Allegations Trail Armstrong Into Another Stage:
> >> http://www.latimes.com/sports/cycling/la-sp-armstrong9jul09,0,5275381.sto=
> >>ry?page=3D1
> >>
> >> The LA Times got their hands on the court documents from Lances trial in =
> >>Texas last fall. Hmmm Lance, it may take more than your sparkling personal=
> >>ity to shake this one off.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> >>---
> >> Do you Yahoo!?
> >> Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
> >>
> >>
> >>---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> >>---
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> OBRA mailing list
> >> obra@list.obra.org
> >> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> >> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >>
> >>
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >OBRA mailing list
> >obra@list.obra.org
> >http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> >Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Rick C Johnson

For the record "Innocent until proven guilty" is a concept America
adopted from European origins. Contrary to the perception of many
Americans it is not explicitly mentioned in the Constitution of the
United States but instead inferred from judicial opinions of the 5th and
6th Amendments (ratified December 1791) and the 14th Amendment (ratified
July 1868).
Only the modern Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms and the French
Declaration of Rights of Man and of the Citizen (Adopted August 1789)
clearly state the concept in their governing documents.

Rick

Joe Cipale wrote:

>Primary difference between US Courts and European Courts:
>In the US, you are innocent until proven guilty based on a preponderance of evidence and the determination from a jury of one's peers.
>In Europe (AIR), you are guilty until you can prove your innocent.
>
>I am sure the legal eagles of OBRA can define further differences.
>
>Joe
>
>Michael O'Hair wrote:
>
>
>
>>The accusations will continue well after Lance is dead. The "testimony" ag=
>>ainst Lance habitually comes from those with an axe to grind. The press, e=
>>specially the French press, will keep flogging a dead horse as long as it s=
>>ells their publications.=20
>>
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message -----=20
>> From: Karen Kraus=20
>> To: obra@list.obra.org=20
>> Sent: Monday, July 10, 2006 1:39 PM
>> Subject: [OBRA Chat] another lance article
>>
>>
>> Allegations Trail Armstrong Into Another Stage:
>> http://www.latimes.com/sports/cycling/la-sp-armstrong9jul09,0,5275381.sto=
>>ry?page=3D1
>>
>> The LA Times got their hands on the court documents from Lances trial in =
>>Texas last fall. Hmmm Lance, it may take more than your sparkling personal=
>>ity to shake this one off.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
>>---
>> Do you Yahoo!?
>> Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
>>
>>
>>---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
>>---
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>OBRA mailing list
>obra@list.obra.org
>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>

Doug Hormann

Before deriving anything substantive from the LA Times article, I would
suggest reading the entire 132 page Vrijman report. It's very enlightening.
Although Vrijman makes the mistake of drawing speculative conclusions from
the fact that he wasn't allowed to see some documentation from WADA and the
lab, the evidence he does uncover makes the case against Armstong very weak
indeed. The lab in performing the analysis of the 1999 samples chose to
deviate from the accepted methodology for detecting EPO. In fact no
validation studies have been performed on the method used by the French lab.
Furthermore, no secure chain of custody was maintained on the samples. This
means that they could have been tampered with or just poorly stored between
1999 and the date of the test and nobody would have known. No studies have
been done on the long term aspects of EPO in urine. The evidence therefore
is badly tainted. Lastly, based on comments by Dick Pound of WADA, it seems
to me that this animosity between him and Armstrong has become too personal
for him to remain objective. He continues to think that somehow UCI can use
these tests to discipline Armstrong even though the lack of B samples and
the tainted 1999 samples would seemingly make that impossible.

> ----- Original Message -----=20
> From: Karen Kraus=20
> To: obra@list.obra.org=20
> Sent: Monday, July 10, 2006 1:39 PM
> Subject: [OBRA Chat] another lance article
>
>
> Allegations Trail Armstrong Into Another Stage:
>
http://www.latimes.com/sports/cycling/la-sp-armstrong9jul09,0,5275381.sto=
> ry?page=3D1
>
> The LA Times got their hands on the court documents from Lances trial in
=
> Texas last fall. Hmmm Lance, it may take more than your sparkling
personal=
> ity to shake this one off.
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-=
> ---
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-=
> ---
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Joe Cipale

Primary difference between US Courts and European Courts:
In the US, you are innocent until proven guilty based on a preponderance of evidence and the determination from a jury of one's peers.
In Europe (AIR), you are guilty until you can prove your innocent.

I am sure the legal eagles of OBRA can define further differences.

Joe

Michael O'Hair wrote:

> The accusations will continue well after Lance is dead. The "testimony" ag=
> ainst Lance habitually comes from those with an axe to grind. The press, e=
> specially the French press, will keep flogging a dead horse as long as it s=
> ells their publications.=20
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----=20
> From: Karen Kraus=20
> To: obra@list.obra.org=20
> Sent: Monday, July 10, 2006 1:39 PM
> Subject: [OBRA Chat] another lance article
>
>
> Allegations Trail Armstrong Into Another Stage:
> http://www.latimes.com/sports/cycling/la-sp-armstrong9jul09,0,5275381.sto=
> ry?page=3D1
>
> The LA Times got their hands on the court documents from Lances trial in =
> Texas last fall. Hmmm Lance, it may take more than your sparkling personal=
> ity to shake this one off.
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> ---
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> ---
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Michael O'Hair

The accusations will continue well after Lance is dead. The "testimony" against Lance habitually comes from those with an axe to grind. The press, especially the French press, will keep flogging a dead horse as long as it sells their publications.

----- Original Message -----
From: Karen Kraus
To: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Monday, July 10, 2006 1:39 PM
Subject: [OBRA Chat] another lance article

Allegations Trail Armstrong Into Another Stage:
http://www.latimes.com/sports/cycling/la-sp-armstrong9jul09,0,5275381.story?page=1

The LA Times got their hands on the court documents from Lances trial in Texas last fall. Hmmm Lance, it may take more than your sparkling personality to shake this one off.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Karen Kraus

What I haven't seen before is the actual statements from former team mates (under oath), numbers from the '99 urine samples with explaination and the fact that the court never found in favor of Armstrong, they settled before a decision was made. Be sure to read all 9 pages!

---------------------------------
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Steve Brown

Looks like a rehash of all the same stuff and nothing new. I am not a
lawyer but had ridden with a few and there does not appear to be any
new smoking guns in this article.

Steve Brown
On Jul 10, 2006, at 1:39 PM, Karen Kraus wrote:

> Allegations Trail Armstrong Into Another Stage:
> http://www.latimes.com/sports/cycling/la-sp-
> armstrong9jul09,0,5275381.story?page=1
>  
> The LA Times got their hands on the court documents from Lances trial
> in Texas last fall.  Hmmm Lance, it may take more than your sparkling
> personality to shake this one off.
>  
>  
>
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail
> Beta._______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
Steve Brown
Steve Brown Company Inc.
6435 SW Parkhill Drive
Portland, Oregon 97239
503.293.1683
503.293.6009f
503.781.3631c
sbrown@stevebrowncompany.com

Karen Kraus

Allegations Trail Armstrong Into Another Stage:
http://www.latimes.com/sports/cycling/la-sp-armstrong9jul09,0,5275381.story?page=1

The LA Times got their hands on the court documents from Lances trial in Texas last fall. Hmmm Lance, it may take more than your sparkling personality to shake this one off.

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.