FLOYD and DRUGS, my thoughts

Matthew Miner

2006-08-07

Let's give they guy a chance to defend himself. Aside from his attorneys
(and hopefully at least his spouse!) he doesn't exactly have many others on
his side. If you were in his shoes at end of stage 16, would you not weigh
the downside risk of winning the tour but getting caught and doing
irreparable damage to your reputation vs. not winning and but at least not
creating the biggest scandal in the history of the tour? I mean he KNEW he
would be tested if he won or placed highly.

And if you want to argue that he thought he could be careful to take just
enough testosterone to be undetected, well, it probably wouldn't have been
enough to make a significant difference in his performance anyhow.

Also, the fact he appeared angry as opposed to elated after the win doesn't
mean squat. The press--in their usual manner--had written him off after
stage 16. They called it a massive failure. The win was sweet revenge and
that's how many of us behave in situations such as that. It's just not valid
to draw any assumption whatsoever from it. I think throwing water bottles at
the press is just what they deserved.

I for one am not willing to convict him at this early stage--it ain't the
American way.

matt

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Jack Bennett
Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006 9:23 AM
To: adcampbell46@earthlink.net; obra
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] FLOYD and DRUGS, my thoughts

Well, at this point, it is looking like he's guiilty of something, and
it does make you wish someone who gets caught would just say "OK, I did
it. And I did it because I think that's the only way to compete." (or
whatever) And I guess that's what you were suggesting.

It still doesn't make sense to me that a guy who knows he'll be tested
if he wins the stage would take a drug. Nor does it make sense that he
would then claim it's a result of natural processes when he knows the
test could show that it's a synthetic. You're right--at some point, the
denials just start looking stupid.

--- Dave Campbell wrote:

> I am not saying throw the guy to the wolves or guilty until proven
> innocent, but I would like to see somebody just step up and really
> tell it...
> today his lawyer is talking about dehydration causing the reading...
> just seems like reaching, grasping...
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jack Bennett
> To: adcampbell46@earthlink.net
> Sent: 8/4/2006 8:33:30 AM
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] FLOYD and DRUGS, my thoughts
>
>
> Nope. Basically I'm saying 1) we don't know for sure either way yet
> and 2) Landis' guilt (or not) has nothing to do with prior history.
>
>
>
> Dave Campbell wrote:
> Do you REALLY think after all the evidence thus far (UCI notes Testo
> test
> shows exogenous) he is innocent.
> REALLY?
> Natural 3x a high with no prior positives?
>
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: Jack Bennett
> > To: ; obra
> > Date: 8/1/2006 11:52:56 PM
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] FLOYD and DRUGS, my thoughts
> >
> > Very eloquent, but implicit in your last paragraph is your belief
> that
> > Floyd is guilty of taking something ("What did you take, how did
> you
> > take it, and how long have you been doing this? Why did you do
> it?").
> > It is still possible to suppose, instead, that he has already COME
> > CLEAN and that he's not in fact guilty of anything. Regardless of
> all
> > the history of drugs in the sport of cycling, Landis' case deserves
> to
> > rise or fall on its own merits, not the guilt of Hamilton, Heras,
> or
> > anyone else, and the merits (or lack thereof) remain to be proven.
> >
> > Jack
> >
> >
> > --- Dave Campbell wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > OBRA-friends:
> > > You may see this in other publications in coming days, feel free
> to
> > > delete if you have heard enough! I felt compelled to state my
> views
> > >
> > > As a rabid cycling fan, I always watch the Tour de France
> > > with great interest and after nearly twenty-five years in the
> sport,
> > > I am in awe of the level of coverage we now get in this country.
> > > Twenty years ago the sport got a ten minute highlight once a week
> and
> > > now I choose from five different 2-3 hour time slots, including
> live
> > > coverage! It was devastating to watch Floyd Landis crumble while
> > > wearing the leader's jersey, but absolutely spectacular to see
> his
> > > audacious attack the following day. It was an exploit like the
> Tour
> > > hasn't seen in ages, a brave move of a true champion, a legend.
> It
> > > inspired my training, put a spring in my step, and I thought of
> how I
> > > could use Floyd's story of determination to motivate and
> encourage
> > > the athletes I coach or the students in my classroom.
> > > However, soon my friends, co-workers, and athletes were
> > > no longer asking my opinion on these exploits or sharing my
> > > enthusiasm for a great race but rather asking me about the
> ensuing
> > > drug scandal! We are hearing all the same rhetoric we have heard
> > > before as the rider, his coaches, and team grasp at straws.maybe
> the
> > > beer the night before triggered the positive (yeah, that seems
> > > likely.one beer tripled his testosterone) or even that it was the
> > > same French lab that was "out to get" Lance Armstrong. Keep in
> mind
> > > the limit is 4:1 and he tested 11:1. Some issues stick out.Floyd
> had
> > > fourteen tests (including six at the Tour) this year and all were
> > > negative, surely his own "naturally high levels" would have
> triggered
> > > another positive prior to the one taken after his key stage. And
> > > what of Floyd's angry, aggressive behavior beyond the line upon
> > > finishing his incredible breakaway? Clearly, he was fired up but
> we
> > > would also expect some elation and fatigue and not just h
> > > urling water bottles at pressing journalists, correct?
> > > Not surprisingly, the contrived responses, often through legal
> > > counsel continue to fly and continue to numb us: all the riders
> > > ejected before the Tour began each still proclaim their innocence
> and
> > > vow to fight on, Barry Bonds maintains he was given "flax seed
> oil",
> > > Tyler Hamilton (whose credibility is exactly ZERO after his name
> was
> > > all over the seized Fuentes files before the Tour) insists the
> blood
> > > test is flawed, and Justin Gatlin is the victim of a vindictive
> > > masseur. PLEASE. Most of the reports of what REALLY happens in
> > > sports today come from those with an axe to grind (Spanish pro
> > > cyclist Jesus Manzano) or a fall guy (Festina soigneur Willy
> Voet) or
> > > a borderline nut-case making some bucks (Jose Canseco). The stars
> > > maintain the status quo, which apparently is dope until caught
> and
> > > then deny! Meanwhile, the premier sporting events and
> achievements
> > > continue to be tainted by those who cheat. Instead of feeling awe
> > > and excitement for the victors, we are skeptical, doub
> > > tful, and have become jaded. In cycling, the LAST THREE GRAND
> > > TOURS, the pinnacles of the sport, have winners who have either
> been
> > > relegated (Heras in the Vuelta), are under suspicion (Basso in
> the
> > > Giro), or are currently having a positive test investigated
> (Landis).
> > > Is it any surprise that OLN dropped its planned highlight show
> last
> > > Sunday or that Germany's major station (their star Jan Ullrich is
> > > under investigation) will likely cease to show the Tour? In the
> > > quest for fame and fortune, the cheaters have bitten the very
> hand
> > > that feed s them!
> > > Mr. Landis, you clearly were raised by a family who taught you
> about
> > > honesty and hard work. Your sport is corrupt and dying. Now is
> the
> > > time.WHAT DID YOU REALLY DO? No lawyers, no excuses, just the
> truth.
> > > Why continue dragging cycling, your good name, the event, and all
> of
> > > the public's belief in sport's credibility through the mud for
> MONTHS
> > > on end while we split legal hairs??? What did you take, how did
> you
> > > take it, and how long have you been doing this? Why did you do
> it?
> > > Is it the riders decision to dope? The managers? Are their
> systems
> > > in place to help? How do so many escape the tests? The only hope
> of
> > > fixing this horrific and pervasive problem and restoring the
> trust of
> > > the public is to COME CLEAN. We need the voice of a champion who
> > > feels regret and wants to see things improve. You are the right
> man
> > > for the job, Floyd and THE TIME IS NOW.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Dave Campbell
> > > adcampbell46@earthlink.net
> > > EarthLink Revolves Around You.>
> > _______________________________________________
> > > OBRA mailing list
> > > obra@list.obra.org
> > > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> > >
> >
> >
> > .................................
> > Jack Bennett
> > drjackbo@yahoo.com
> > .................................
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> .................................
> Jack Bennett
> drjackbo@yahoo.com
> .................................
>
>
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.

.................................
Jack Bennett
drjackbo@yahoo.com
.................................

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Will Fernyhough

2006-08-07

Well said, Mike, I always appreciate your articulate and intelligent
perspectives. Will Fernyhough

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Mike Murray
Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006 3:49 PM
To: 'obra'
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] FLOYD and DRUGS, my thoughts

There is a significant amount of debate about the technically validity
not only of the isotope test to compare endogenous vs. exogenous
testosterone but also about the T/E ratio itself as well as many of the
other doping tests. Lab testing is not at all the binary process that
many people seem to believe it is. There is a very good article on this
subject at:

http://www.amstat.org/publications/chance/172.berry.pdf

I should also point out that several of the doping tests have not had
large number controlled trials that would actually allow calculation
accuracy rates. There is no question that doping is a problem in
sports, and for that matter society in general (Is there steroid testing
for models and
actors?) but many aspects of the current process suggest a
pharmaceutical McCarthyism.

Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Jack Bennett
Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006 09:23 AM
To: adcampbell46@earthlink.net; obra
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] FLOYD and DRUGS, my thoughts

Well, at this point, it is looking like he's guiilty of something, and
it does make you wish someone who gets caught would just say "OK, I did
it. And I did it because I think that's the only way to compete." (or
whatever) And I guess that's what you were suggesting.

It still doesn't make sense to me that a guy who knows he'll be tested
if he wins the stage would take a drug. Nor does it make sense that he
would then claim it's a result of natural processes when he knows the
test could show that it's a synthetic. You're right--at some point, the
denials just start looking stupid.

--- Dave Campbell wrote:

> I am not saying throw the guy to the wolves or guilty until proven
> innocent, but I would like to see somebody just step up and really
> tell it... today his lawyer is talking about dehydration causing the
> reading... just seems like reaching, grasping...
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jack Bennett
> To: adcampbell46@earthlink.net
> Sent: 8/4/2006 8:33:30 AM
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] FLOYD and DRUGS, my thoughts
>
>
> Nope. Basically I'm saying 1) we don't know for sure either way yet
> and 2) Landis' guilt (or not) has nothing to do with prior history.
>
>
>
> Dave Campbell wrote:
> Do you REALLY think after all the evidence thus far (UCI notes Testo
> test shows exogenous) he is innocent.
> REALLY?
> Natural 3x a high with no prior positives?
>
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: Jack Bennett
> > To: ; obra
> > Date: 8/1/2006 11:52:56 PM
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] FLOYD and DRUGS, my thoughts
> >
> > Very eloquent, but implicit in your last paragraph is your belief
> that
> > Floyd is guilty of taking something ("What did you take, how did
> you
> > take it, and how long have you been doing this? Why did you do
> it?").
> > It is still possible to suppose, instead, that he has already COME
> > CLEAN and that he's not in fact guilty of anything. Regardless of
> all
> > the history of drugs in the sport of cycling, Landis' case deserves
> to
> > rise or fall on its own merits, not the guilt of Hamilton, Heras,
> or
> > anyone else, and the merits (or lack thereof) remain to be proven.
> >
> > Jack
> >
> >
> > --- Dave Campbell wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > OBRA-friends:
> > > You may see this in other publications in coming days, feel free
> to
> > > delete if you have heard enough! I felt compelled to state my
> views
> > >
> > > As a rabid cycling fan, I always watch the Tour de France with
> > > great interest and after nearly twenty-five years in the
> sport,
> > > I am in awe of the level of coverage we now get in this country.
> > > Twenty years ago the sport got a ten minute highlight once a week
> and
> > > now I choose from five different 2-3 hour time slots, including
> live
> > > coverage! It was devastating to watch Floyd Landis crumble while
> > > wearing the leader's jersey, but absolutely spectacular to see
> his
> > > audacious attack the following day. It was an exploit like the
> Tour
> > > hasn't seen in ages, a brave move of a true champion, a legend.
> It
> > > inspired my training, put a spring in my step, and I thought of
> how I
> > > could use Floyd's story of determination to motivate and
> encourage
> > > the athletes I coach or the students in my classroom. However,
> > > soon my friends, co-workers, and athletes were no longer asking my

> > > opinion on these exploits or sharing my enthusiasm for a great
> > > race but rather asking me about the
> ensuing
> > > drug scandal! We are hearing all the same rhetoric we have heard
> > > before as the rider, his coaches, and team grasp at straws.maybe
> the
> > > beer the night before triggered the positive (yeah, that seems
> > > likely.one beer tripled his testosterone) or even that it was the
> > > same French lab that was "out to get" Lance Armstrong. Keep in
> mind
> > > the limit is 4:1 and he tested 11:1. Some issues stick out.Floyd
> had
> > > fourteen tests (including six at the Tour) this year and all were
> > > negative, surely his own "naturally high levels" would have
> triggered
> > > another positive prior to the one taken after his key stage. And
> > > what of Floyd's angry, aggressive behavior beyond the line upon
> > > finishing his incredible breakaway? Clearly, he was fired up but
> we
> > > would also expect some elation and fatigue and not just h urling
> > > water bottles at pressing journalists, correct? Not surprisingly,
> > > the contrived responses, often through legal counsel continue to
> > > fly and continue to numb us: all the riders ejected before the
> > > Tour began each still proclaim their innocence
> and
> > > vow to fight on, Barry Bonds maintains he was given "flax seed
> oil",
> > > Tyler Hamilton (whose credibility is exactly ZERO after his name
> was
> > > all over the seized Fuentes files before the Tour) insists the
> blood
> > > test is flawed, and Justin Gatlin is the victim of a vindictive
> > > masseur. PLEASE. Most of the reports of what REALLY happens in
> > > sports today come from those with an axe to grind (Spanish pro
> > > cyclist Jesus Manzano) or a fall guy (Festina soigneur Willy
> Voet) or
> > > a borderline nut-case making some bucks (Jose Canseco). The stars
> > > maintain the status quo, which apparently is dope until caught
> and
> > > then deny! Meanwhile, the premier sporting events and
> achievements
> > > continue to be tainted by those who cheat. Instead of feeling awe
> > > and excitement for the victors, we are skeptical, doub tful, and
> > > have become jaded. In cycling, the LAST THREE GRAND TOURS, the
> > > pinnacles of the sport, have winners who have either
> been
> > > relegated (Heras in the Vuelta), are under suspicion (Basso in
> the
> > > Giro), or are currently having a positive test investigated
> (Landis).
> > > Is it any surprise that OLN dropped its planned highlight show
> last
> > > Sunday or that Germany's major station (their star Jan Ullrich is
> > > under investigation) will likely cease to show the Tour? In the
> > > quest for fame and fortune, the cheaters have bitten the very
> hand
> > > that feed s them!
> > > Mr. Landis, you clearly were raised by a family who taught you
> about
> > > honesty and hard work. Your sport is corrupt and dying. Now is
> the
> > > time.WHAT DID YOU REALLY DO? No lawyers, no excuses, just the
> truth.
> > > Why continue dragging cycling, your good name, the event, and all
> of
> > > the public's belief in sport's credibility through the mud for
> MONTHS
> > > on end while we split legal hairs??? What did you take, how did
> you
> > > take it, and how long have you been doing this? Why did you do
> it?
> > > Is it the riders decision to dope? The managers? Are their
> systems
> > > in place to help? How do so many escape the tests? The only hope
> of
> > > fixing this horrific and pervasive problem and restoring the
> trust of
> > > the public is to COME CLEAN. We need the voice of a champion who
> > > feels regret and wants to see things improve. You are the right
> man
> > > for the job, Floyd and THE TIME IS NOW.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Dave Campbell
> > > adcampbell46@earthlink.net
> > > EarthLink Revolves Around You.>
> > _______________________________________________
> > > OBRA mailing list
> > > obra@list.obra.org http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> > >
> >
> >
> > .................................
> > Jack Bennett
> > drjackbo@yahoo.com
> > .................................
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> .................................
> Jack Bennett
> drjackbo@yahoo.com
> .................................
>
>
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.

.................................
Jack Bennett
drjackbo@yahoo.com
.................................

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

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Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


Conor Buescher

2006-08-07

The doctor featured on Sportscenter was Dr. Gary Wadler from WADA.

http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/tdf2006/news/story?id=2531677

Conor

> I watched Rome is Burning, Around the Horn and PTI today and Floyd is
> definitely being convicted in the press - at least the talk/sports shows.
> Even Sportscenter had footage of Floyd's interview this morning inter cut
> with a representative from a anti-doping agency (didn't catch which one)
> countering Floyd's statements one at a time.
>
> Other articles exist here:
> http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/tdf2006/columns/story?id=2540280
>
> http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/cycling/news/story?id=2541474
>
> It would be nice to definitive learn something but I'm not sure if that's
> really going to be possible now.
>
>
> I think this is going to get worse before it gets better.
>
> Conor Buescher
>
>
>
>> The whole thing is a disaster. Floyd has already been convicted by the press.
>> I get the feeling that the real truth will never come out. Maybe 20
>> years later when
>> some old soigneur or lab tech makes a death bed confession, but not til then.
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


Trispoke@aol.com

2006-08-07

Thank you Mike!

There are too many people commenting on this issue in the press who haven't
the vaguest idea about the procedures, not to mention the politics involved.
Many testing agencies and labs have a vested interest in defending their
results, a point which is rarely noted. And, as you point out, many of the tests
used have not been validated in the population which is being tested, much
less defining what a standard deviation from normal is, and how many are
acceptable.

An example might be the determination of "normal" hematocrit levels for
cyclists, in which initial studies found athletes to have an average hematocrit
around 42 (IIRC), with 2 standard deviations above the norm representing a level
of 50. This was then determined to be the appropriate level for suspension
with the "health check", despite a statistical assumption that would therefore
define 2.5% of cyclists above the norm to be unfit to compete. There are
many other confounds just in those determinations: did the population include
those blood doping, were measurements taken at different types of races in a
variety of weather conditions, did stage races affect the norms, etc., etc.

It's a complex issue, and testing for many substances is not black and white.
And when it is, the substances tested may not be relevant to performance
enhancement: Danilo Hondo was suspended for Carphedon, which I believe is a
metabolite of ephedra. Or Paolo Pezzo's oft-noted nandrolone test, which was
barely a hint above normal, when anyone who actually injected one of the steroids
which would cause a positive test would then cause positive tests at much
higher levels for six months or more.

And don't get me started on Dick Pound...
Cheers,
Ian Penner

In a message dated 8/7/06 3:50:25 PM, mike.murray@obra.org writes:

> There is a significant amount of debate about the technically validity not
> only of the isotope test to compare endogenous vs. exogenous testosterone
> but also about the T/E ratio itself as well as many of the other doping
> tests.  Lab testing is not at all the binary process that many people seem
> to believe it is.  There is a very good article on this subject at:
>
> http://www.amstat.org/publications/chance/172.berry.pdf
>
> I should also point out that several of the doping tests have not had large
> number controlled trials that would actually allow calculation accuracy
> rates.  There is no question that doping is a problem in sports, and for
> that matter society in general (Is there steroid testing for models and
> actors?) but many aspects of the current process suggest a pharmaceutical
> McCarthyism.
>
> Mike Murray
>


Tim Maloney

2006-08-07

Lets just hope that cycling doesn't become like baseball......where Sammy
gets caught
using a corked bat then goes on to the World Series, or B. Bonds breaks a
long standing
record and no one really cares.

Tim.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Conor Buescher"
To: "Stephen Hemminger"
Cc: "obra"
Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006 5:15 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] FLOYD and DRUGS, my thoughts

>I watched Rome is Burning, Around the Horn and PTI today and Floyd is
> definitely being convicted in the press - at least the talk/sports shows.
> Even Sportscenter had footage of Floyd's interview this morning inter cut
> with a representative from a anti-doping agency (didn't catch which one)
> countering Floyd's statements one at a time.
>
> Other articles exist here:
> http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/tdf2006/columns/story?id=2540280
>
> http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/cycling/news/story?id=2541474
>
> It would be nice to definitive learn something but I'm not sure if that's
> really going to be possible now.
>
>
> I think this is going to get worse before it gets better.
>
> Conor Buescher
>
>
>
>> The whole thing is a disaster. Floyd has already been convicted by the
>> press.
>> I get the feeling that the real truth will never come out. Maybe 20
>> years later when
>> some old soigneur or lab tech makes a death bed confession, but not til
>> then.
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


Conor Buescher

2006-08-07

I watched Rome is Burning, Around the Horn and PTI today and Floyd is
definitely being convicted in the press - at least the talk/sports shows.
Even Sportscenter had footage of Floyd's interview this morning inter cut
with a representative from a anti-doping agency (didn't catch which one)
countering Floyd's statements one at a time.

Other articles exist here:
http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/tdf2006/columns/story?id=2540280

http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/cycling/news/story?id=2541474

It would be nice to definitive learn something but I'm not sure if that's
really going to be possible now.

I think this is going to get worse before it gets better.

Conor Buescher

> The whole thing is a disaster. Floyd has already been convicted by the press.
> I get the feeling that the real truth will never come out. Maybe 20
> years later when
> some old soigneur or lab tech makes a death bed confession, but not til then.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


Mike Murray

2006-08-07

There is a significant amount of debate about the technically validity not
only of the isotope test to compare endogenous vs. exogenous testosterone
but also about the T/E ratio itself as well as many of the other doping
tests. Lab testing is not at all the binary process that many people seem
to believe it is. There is a very good article on this subject at:

http://www.amstat.org/publications/chance/172.berry.pdf

I should also point out that several of the doping tests have not had large
number controlled trials that would actually allow calculation accuracy
rates. There is no question that doping is a problem in sports, and for
that matter society in general (Is there steroid testing for models and
actors?) but many aspects of the current process suggest a pharmaceutical
McCarthyism.

Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Jack Bennett
Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006 09:23 AM
To: adcampbell46@earthlink.net; obra
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] FLOYD and DRUGS, my thoughts

Well, at this point, it is looking like he's guiilty of something, and it
does make you wish someone who gets caught would just say "OK, I did it. And
I did it because I think that's the only way to compete." (or
whatever) And I guess that's what you were suggesting.

It still doesn't make sense to me that a guy who knows he'll be tested if he
wins the stage would take a drug. Nor does it make sense that he would then
claim it's a result of natural processes when he knows the test could show
that it's a synthetic. You're right--at some point, the denials just start
looking stupid.

--- Dave Campbell wrote:

> I am not saying throw the guy to the wolves or guilty until proven
> innocent, but I would like to see somebody just step up and really
> tell it... today his lawyer is talking about dehydration causing the
> reading... just seems like reaching, grasping...
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jack Bennett
> To: adcampbell46@earthlink.net
> Sent: 8/4/2006 8:33:30 AM
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] FLOYD and DRUGS, my thoughts
>
>
> Nope. Basically I'm saying 1) we don't know for sure either way yet
> and 2) Landis' guilt (or not) has nothing to do with prior history.
>
>
>
> Dave Campbell wrote:
> Do you REALLY think after all the evidence thus far (UCI notes Testo
> test shows exogenous) he is innocent.
> REALLY?
> Natural 3x a high with no prior positives?
>
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: Jack Bennett
> > To: ; obra
> > Date: 8/1/2006 11:52:56 PM
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] FLOYD and DRUGS, my thoughts
> >
> > Very eloquent, but implicit in your last paragraph is your belief
> that
> > Floyd is guilty of taking something ("What did you take, how did
> you
> > take it, and how long have you been doing this? Why did you do
> it?").
> > It is still possible to suppose, instead, that he has already COME
> > CLEAN and that he's not in fact guilty of anything. Regardless of
> all
> > the history of drugs in the sport of cycling, Landis' case deserves
> to
> > rise or fall on its own merits, not the guilt of Hamilton, Heras,
> or
> > anyone else, and the merits (or lack thereof) remain to be proven.
> >
> > Jack
> >
> >
> > --- Dave Campbell wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > OBRA-friends:
> > > You may see this in other publications in coming days, feel free
> to
> > > delete if you have heard enough! I felt compelled to state my
> views
> > >
> > > As a rabid cycling fan, I always watch the Tour de France with
> > > great interest and after nearly twenty-five years in the
> sport,
> > > I am in awe of the level of coverage we now get in this country.
> > > Twenty years ago the sport got a ten minute highlight once a week
> and
> > > now I choose from five different 2-3 hour time slots, including
> live
> > > coverage! It was devastating to watch Floyd Landis crumble while
> > > wearing the leader's jersey, but absolutely spectacular to see
> his
> > > audacious attack the following day. It was an exploit like the
> Tour
> > > hasn't seen in ages, a brave move of a true champion, a legend.
> It
> > > inspired my training, put a spring in my step, and I thought of
> how I
> > > could use Floyd's story of determination to motivate and
> encourage
> > > the athletes I coach or the students in my classroom. However,
> > > soon my friends, co-workers, and athletes were no longer asking my
> > > opinion on these exploits or sharing my enthusiasm for a great
> > > race but rather asking me about the
> ensuing
> > > drug scandal! We are hearing all the same rhetoric we have heard
> > > before as the rider, his coaches, and team grasp at straws.maybe
> the
> > > beer the night before triggered the positive (yeah, that seems
> > > likely.one beer tripled his testosterone) or even that it was the
> > > same French lab that was "out to get" Lance Armstrong. Keep in
> mind
> > > the limit is 4:1 and he tested 11:1. Some issues stick out.Floyd
> had
> > > fourteen tests (including six at the Tour) this year and all were
> > > negative, surely his own "naturally high levels" would have
> triggered
> > > another positive prior to the one taken after his key stage. And
> > > what of Floyd's angry, aggressive behavior beyond the line upon
> > > finishing his incredible breakaway? Clearly, he was fired up but
> we
> > > would also expect some elation and fatigue and not just h urling
> > > water bottles at pressing journalists, correct? Not surprisingly,
> > > the contrived responses, often through legal counsel continue to
> > > fly and continue to numb us: all the riders ejected before the
> > > Tour began each still proclaim their innocence
> and
> > > vow to fight on, Barry Bonds maintains he was given "flax seed
> oil",
> > > Tyler Hamilton (whose credibility is exactly ZERO after his name
> was
> > > all over the seized Fuentes files before the Tour) insists the
> blood
> > > test is flawed, and Justin Gatlin is the victim of a vindictive
> > > masseur. PLEASE. Most of the reports of what REALLY happens in
> > > sports today come from those with an axe to grind (Spanish pro
> > > cyclist Jesus Manzano) or a fall guy (Festina soigneur Willy
> Voet) or
> > > a borderline nut-case making some bucks (Jose Canseco). The stars
> > > maintain the status quo, which apparently is dope until caught
> and
> > > then deny! Meanwhile, the premier sporting events and
> achievements
> > > continue to be tainted by those who cheat. Instead of feeling awe
> > > and excitement for the victors, we are skeptical, doub tful, and
> > > have become jaded. In cycling, the LAST THREE GRAND TOURS, the
> > > pinnacles of the sport, have winners who have either
> been
> > > relegated (Heras in the Vuelta), are under suspicion (Basso in
> the
> > > Giro), or are currently having a positive test investigated
> (Landis).
> > > Is it any surprise that OLN dropped its planned highlight show
> last
> > > Sunday or that Germany's major station (their star Jan Ullrich is
> > > under investigation) will likely cease to show the Tour? In the
> > > quest for fame and fortune, the cheaters have bitten the very
> hand
> > > that feed s them!
> > > Mr. Landis, you clearly were raised by a family who taught you
> about
> > > honesty and hard work. Your sport is corrupt and dying. Now is
> the
> > > time.WHAT DID YOU REALLY DO? No lawyers, no excuses, just the
> truth.
> > > Why continue dragging cycling, your good name, the event, and all
> of
> > > the public's belief in sport's credibility through the mud for
> MONTHS
> > > on end while we split legal hairs??? What did you take, how did
> you
> > > take it, and how long have you been doing this? Why did you do
> it?
> > > Is it the riders decision to dope? The managers? Are their
> systems
> > > in place to help? How do so many escape the tests? The only hope
> of
> > > fixing this horrific and pervasive problem and restoring the
> trust of
> > > the public is to COME CLEAN. We need the voice of a champion who
> > > feels regret and wants to see things improve. You are the right
> man
> > > for the job, Floyd and THE TIME IS NOW.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Dave Campbell
> > > adcampbell46@earthlink.net
> > > EarthLink Revolves Around You.>
> > _______________________________________________
> > > OBRA mailing list
> > > obra@list.obra.org http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> > >
> >
> >
> > .................................
> > Jack Bennett
> > drjackbo@yahoo.com
> > .................................
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> .................................
> Jack Bennett
> drjackbo@yahoo.com
> .................................
>
>
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.

.................................
Jack Bennett
drjackbo@yahoo.com
.................................

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Stephen Hemminger

2006-08-07

The whole thing is a disaster. Floyd has already been convicted by the press.
I get the feeling that the real truth will never come out. Maybe 20
years later when
some old soigneur or lab tech makes a death bed confession, but not til then.


Vicki Schroeder

2006-08-07

Before I comment on previous posts let me just say that I think it is
sad to see these cases drawn out while lawyers argue the validity of
the tests. At some stage I think all cyclist who are members of the UCI
must agree up front to a certain range of tests (negotiated if needs be
by a rider union) to which they will submit and that the results of
these tests are binding - no arguments after the fact. That way people
can be caught, thrown out and the sport can move on. I have a feeling
sponsors would support this too to avoid their names being dragged
through the mud for months on end.

> it does make you wish someone who gets caught would just say "OK, I
> did it. And I did it because I think that's the only way to compete."

Well actually many European pro's have done this already. Not everybody
takes the deny, deny, deny strategy. For example, David Miller, who
served his suspension and is back now or Oscar Camenzind who was caught
for EPO, admitted it and retired. I'd add that he was also on Phonak.

On this point it is interesting to note, as reported in Velonews (see
link below), that another Phonak team mate (Sascha Urweider) was fired
from Phonak in Feb for excessive testosterone. I'm not a believer in
guilt by association but it does add smoke to the fire that Hamilton,
Perez, Gutierrez and Botero have also all been fired or suspended from
Phonak for doping offenses or alleged offenses.
http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/10646.0.html

> It still doesn't make sense to me that a guy who knows he'll be
> tested if he wins the stage would take a drug.
> You're right--at some point, the denials just start looking stupid.

I think it is a mistake to assume that riders always make smart or
rational decisions and certainly not a good defense. There'd be a lot
of people getting away with their crimes if their defense was "Why
would I do that? That would be stupid." Just read the newspapers......

Vicki


Thomas W. Judson

2006-08-07

Personally, I still want to believe that Floyd is
innocent, but I have to admit that things do not look
good for him right now. If he is indeed guilty, he
should come clean and tell everything that he knows.
On the other hand, he should fight this to the end if
he is innocent.

Here is my greatest fear. The UCI and the anti-doping
experts set limits on the amount of certain substances
that are found naturally in the human body, and they
do this based on how many standard deviations that
these substances are away from the mean. This is
certainly true of the T:I test and the CIR test.
Depending on how they set the limits, certain people
WILL occassionally test outside the limits. And they
will do so without having done any doping. This is
not like testing for cocaine or ampetimines in the
blood, which do not occur naturally.

Some time in the future it is almost certain that an
innocent person will test postive and be convicted of
doping. I certainly hope that Floyd is not this
person. If there is anything worse than doping to win
a race and not getting caught, this would be it.

--- Jack Bennett wrote:

> Well, at this point, it is looking like he's guiilty
> of something, and
> it does make you wish someone who gets caught would
> just say "OK, I did
> it. And I did it because I think that's the only way
> to compete." (or
> whatever) And I guess that's what you were
> suggesting.
>
> It still doesn't make sense to me that a guy who
> knows he'll be tested
> if he wins the stage would take a drug. Nor does it
> make sense that he
> would then claim it's a result of natural processes
> when he knows the
> test could show that it's a synthetic. You're
> right--at some point, the
> denials just start looking stupid.
>
>
>
> --- Dave Campbell
> wrote:
>
> > I am not saying throw the guy to the wolves or
> guilty until proven
> > innocent, but I would like to see somebody just
> step up and really
> > tell it...
> > today his lawyer is talking about dehydration
> causing the reading...
> > just seems like reaching, grasping...
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Jack Bennett
> > To: adcampbell46@earthlink.net
> > Sent: 8/4/2006 8:33:30 AM
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] FLOYD and DRUGS, my
> thoughts
> >
> >
> > Nope. Basically I'm saying 1) we don't know for
> sure either way yet
> > and 2) Landis' guilt (or not) has nothing to do
> with prior history.
> >
> >
> >
> > Dave Campbell wrote:
> > Do you REALLY think after all the evidence thus
> far (UCI notes Testo
> > test
> > shows exogenous) he is innocent.
> > REALLY?
> > Natural 3x a high with no prior positives?
> >
> >
> > > [Original Message]
> > > From: Jack Bennett
> > > To: ; obra
> > > Date: 8/1/2006 11:52:56 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] FLOYD and DRUGS, my
> thoughts
> > >
> > > Very eloquent, but implicit in your last
> paragraph is your belief
> > that
> > > Floyd is guilty of taking something ("What did
> you take, how did
> > you
> > > take it, and how long have you been doing this?
> Why did you do
> > it?").
> > > It is still possible to suppose, instead, that
> he has already COME
> > > CLEAN and that he's not in fact guilty of
> anything. Regardless of
> > all
> > > the history of drugs in the sport of cycling,
> Landis' case deserves
> > to
> > > rise or fall on its own merits, not the guilt of
> Hamilton, Heras,
> > or
> > > anyone else, and the merits (or lack thereof)
> remain to be proven.
> > >
> > > Jack
> > >
> > >
> > > --- Dave Campbell wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > OBRA-friends:
> > > > You may see this in other publications in
> coming days, feel free
> > to
> > > > delete if you have heard enough! I felt
> compelled to state my
> > views
> > > >
> > > > As a rabid cycling fan, I always watch the
> Tour de France
> > > > with great interest and after nearly
> twenty-five years in the
> > sport,
> > > > I am in awe of the level of coverage we now
> get in this country.
> > > > Twenty years ago the sport got a ten minute
> highlight once a week
> > and
> > > > now I choose from five different 2-3 hour time
> slots, including
> > live
> > > > coverage! It was devastating to watch Floyd
> Landis crumble while
> > > > wearing the leader?s jersey, but absolutely
> spectacular to see
> > his
> > > > audacious attack the following day. It was an
> exploit like the
> > Tour
> > > > hasn?t seen in ages, a brave move of a true
> champion, a legend.
> > It
> > > > inspired my training, put a spring in my step,
> and I thought of
> > how I
> > > > could use Floyd?s story of determination to
> motivate and
> > encourage
> > > > the athletes I coach or the students in my
> classroom.
> > > > However, soon my friends, co-workers, and
> athletes were
> > > > no longer asking my opinion on these exploits
> or sharing my
> > > > enthusiasm for a great race but rather asking
> me about the
> > ensuing
> > > > drug scandal! We are hearing all the same
> rhetoric we have heard
> > > > before as the rider, his coaches, and team
> grasp at straws?maybe
> > the
> > > > beer the night before triggered the positive
> (yeah, that seems
> > > > likely?one beer tripled his testosterone) or
> even that it was the
> > > > same French lab that was ?out to get? Lance
> Armstrong. Keep in
> > mind
> > > > the limit is 4:1 and he tested 11:1. Some
> issues stick out?Floyd
> > had
> > > > fourteen tests (including six at the Tour)
> this year and all were
> > > > negative, surely his own ?naturally high
> levels? would have
> > triggered
> > > > another positive prior to the one taken after
> his key stage. And
> > > > what of Floyd?s angry, aggressive behavior
> beyond the line upon
> > > > finishing his incredible breakaway? Clearly,
> he was fired up but
> > we
> > > > would also expect some elation and fatigue and
> not just h
> > > > urling water bottles at pressing journalists,
> correct?
> > > > Not surprisingly, the contrived responses,
> often through legal
> > > > counsel continue to fly and continue to numb
> us: all the riders
> > > > ejected before the Tour began each still
> proclaim their innocence
> > and
> > > > vow to fight on, Barry Bonds maintains he was
> given ?flax seed
> > oil?,
> > > > Tyler Hamilton (whose credibility is exactly
> ZERO after his name
> > was
> > > > all over the seized Fuentes files before the
> Tour) insists the
> > blood
> > > > test is flawed, and Justin Gatlin is the
> victim of a vindictive
> > > > masseur. PLEASE. Most of the reports of what
> REALLY happens in
> > > > sports today come from those with an axe to
> grind (Spanish pro
> > > > cyclist Jesus Manzano) or a fall guy (Festina
> soigneur Willy
> > Voet) or
> > > > a borderline nut-case making some bucks (Jose
> Canseco). The stars
> > > > maintain the status quo, which apparently is
> dope until caught
>
=== message truncated ===

Thomas W. Judson, Ph.D.
Preceptor in Mathematics
Department of Mathematics
Harvard University
1 Oxford Street, Cambridge, MA 02138
EMAIL: judson@math.harvard.edu

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


Jack Bennett

2006-08-07

Well, at this point, it is looking like he's guiilty of something, and
it does make you wish someone who gets caught would just say "OK, I did
it. And I did it because I think that's the only way to compete." (or
whatever) And I guess that's what you were suggesting.

It still doesn't make sense to me that a guy who knows he'll be tested
if he wins the stage would take a drug. Nor does it make sense that he
would then claim it's a result of natural processes when he knows the
test could show that it's a synthetic. You're right--at some point, the
denials just start looking stupid.

--- Dave Campbell wrote:

> I am not saying throw the guy to the wolves or guilty until proven
> innocent, but I would like to see somebody just step up and really
> tell it...
> today his lawyer is talking about dehydration causing the reading...
> just seems like reaching, grasping...
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jack Bennett
> To: adcampbell46@earthlink.net
> Sent: 8/4/2006 8:33:30 AM
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] FLOYD and DRUGS, my thoughts
>
>
> Nope. Basically I'm saying 1) we don't know for sure either way yet
> and 2) Landis' guilt (or not) has nothing to do with prior history.
>
>
>
> Dave Campbell wrote:
> Do you REALLY think after all the evidence thus far (UCI notes Testo
> test
> shows exogenous) he is innocent.
> REALLY?
> Natural 3x a high with no prior positives?
>
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: Jack Bennett
> > To: ; obra
> > Date: 8/1/2006 11:52:56 PM
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] FLOYD and DRUGS, my thoughts
> >
> > Very eloquent, but implicit in your last paragraph is your belief
> that
> > Floyd is guilty of taking something ("What did you take, how did
> you
> > take it, and how long have you been doing this? Why did you do
> it?").
> > It is still possible to suppose, instead, that he has already COME
> > CLEAN and that he's not in fact guilty of anything. Regardless of
> all
> > the history of drugs in the sport of cycling, Landis' case deserves
> to
> > rise or fall on its own merits, not the guilt of Hamilton, Heras,
> or
> > anyone else, and the merits (or lack thereof) remain to be proven.
> >
> > Jack
> >
> >
> > --- Dave Campbell wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > OBRA-friends:
> > > You may see this in other publications in coming days, feel free
> to
> > > delete if you have heard enough! I felt compelled to state my
> views
> > >
> > > As a rabid cycling fan, I always watch the Tour de France
> > > with great interest and after nearly twenty-five years in the
> sport,
> > > I am in awe of the level of coverage we now get in this country.
> > > Twenty years ago the sport got a ten minute highlight once a week
> and
> > > now I choose from five different 2-3 hour time slots, including
> live
> > > coverage! It was devastating to watch Floyd Landis crumble while
> > > wearing the leader?s jersey, but absolutely spectacular to see
> his
> > > audacious attack the following day. It was an exploit like the
> Tour
> > > hasn?t seen in ages, a brave move of a true champion, a legend.
> It
> > > inspired my training, put a spring in my step, and I thought of
> how I
> > > could use Floyd?s story of determination to motivate and
> encourage
> > > the athletes I coach or the students in my classroom.
> > > However, soon my friends, co-workers, and athletes were
> > > no longer asking my opinion on these exploits or sharing my
> > > enthusiasm for a great race but rather asking me about the
> ensuing
> > > drug scandal! We are hearing all the same rhetoric we have heard
> > > before as the rider, his coaches, and team grasp at straws?maybe
> the
> > > beer the night before triggered the positive (yeah, that seems
> > > likely?one beer tripled his testosterone) or even that it was the
> > > same French lab that was ?out to get? Lance Armstrong. Keep in
> mind
> > > the limit is 4:1 and he tested 11:1. Some issues stick out?Floyd
> had
> > > fourteen tests (including six at the Tour) this year and all were
> > > negative, surely his own ?naturally high levels? would have
> triggered
> > > another positive prior to the one taken after his key stage. And
> > > what of Floyd?s angry, aggressive behavior beyond the line upon
> > > finishing his incredible breakaway? Clearly, he was fired up but
> we
> > > would also expect some elation and fatigue and not just h
> > > urling water bottles at pressing journalists, correct?
> > > Not surprisingly, the contrived responses, often through legal
> > > counsel continue to fly and continue to numb us: all the riders
> > > ejected before the Tour began each still proclaim their innocence
> and
> > > vow to fight on, Barry Bonds maintains he was given ?flax seed
> oil?,
> > > Tyler Hamilton (whose credibility is exactly ZERO after his name
> was
> > > all over the seized Fuentes files before the Tour) insists the
> blood
> > > test is flawed, and Justin Gatlin is the victim of a vindictive
> > > masseur. PLEASE. Most of the reports of what REALLY happens in
> > > sports today come from those with an axe to grind (Spanish pro
> > > cyclist Jesus Manzano) or a fall guy (Festina soigneur Willy
> Voet) or
> > > a borderline nut-case making some bucks (Jose Canseco). The stars
> > > maintain the status quo, which apparently is dope until caught
> and
> > > then deny! Meanwhile, the premier sporting events and
> achievements
> > > continue to be tainted by those who cheat. Instead of feeling awe
> > > and excitement for the victors, we are skeptical, doub
> > > tful, and have become jaded. In cycling, the LAST THREE GRAND
> > > TOURS, the pinnacles of the sport, have winners who have either
> been
> > > relegated (Heras in the Vuelta), are under suspicion (Basso in
> the
> > > Giro), or are currently having a positive test investigated
> (Landis).
> > > Is it any surprise that OLN dropped its planned highlight show
> last
> > > Sunday or that Germany?s major station (their star Jan Ullrich is
> > > under investigation) will likely cease to show the Tour? In the
> > > quest for fame and fortune, the cheaters have bitten the very
> hand
> > > that feed s them!
> > > Mr. Landis, you clearly were raised by a family who taught you
> about
> > > honesty and hard work. Your sport is corrupt and dying. Now is
> the
> > > time?WHAT DID YOU REALLY DO? No lawyers, no excuses, just the
> truth.
> > > Why continue dragging cycling, your good name, the event, and all
> of
> > > the public?s belief in sport?s credibility through the mud for
> MONTHS
> > > on end while we split legal hairs??? What did you take, how did
> you
> > > take it, and how long have you been doing this? Why did you do
> it?
> > > Is it the riders decision to dope? The managers? Are their
> systems
> > > in place to help? How do so many escape the tests? The only hope
> of
> > > fixing this horrific and pervasive problem and restoring the
> trust of
> > > the public is to COME CLEAN. We need the voice of a champion who
> > > feels regret and wants to see things improve. You are the right
> man
> > > for the job, Floyd and THE TIME IS NOW.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Dave Campbell
> > > adcampbell46@earthlink.net
> > > EarthLink Revolves Around You.>
> > _______________________________________________
> > > OBRA mailing list
> > > obra@list.obra.org
> > > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> > >
> >
> >
> > .................................
> > Jack Bennett
> > drjackbo@yahoo.com
> > .................................
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> .................................
> Jack Bennett
> drjackbo@yahoo.com
> .................................
>
>
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.

.................................
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Monty Hill

2006-08-07

It was my understanding that these Pro riders are subjected to random tests throughout the year, above and beyond the tests that occur after each stage.

>>> Vicki Schroeder 8/7/2006 11:23 am >>>

Before I comment on previous posts let me just say that I think it is
sad to see these cases drawn out while lawyers argue the validity of
the tests. At some stage I think all cyclist who are members of the UCI
must agree up front to a certain range of tests (negotiated if needs be
by a rider union) to which they will submit and that the results of
these tests are binding - no arguments after the fact. That way people
can be caught, thrown out and the sport can move on. I have a feeling
sponsors would support this too to avoid their names being dragged
through the mud for months on end.

> it does make you wish someone who gets caught would just say "OK, I
> did it. And I did it because I think that's the only way to compete."

Well actually many European pro's have done this already. Not everybody
takes the deny, deny, deny strategy. For example, David Miller, who
served his suspension and is back now or Oscar Camenzind who was caught
for EPO, admitted it and retired. I'd add that he was also on Phonak.

On this point it is interesting to note, as reported in Velonews (see
link below), that another Phonak team mate (Sascha Urweider) was fired
from Phonak in Feb for excessive testosterone. I'm not a believer in
guilt by association but it does add smoke to the fire that Hamilton,
Perez, Gutierrez and Botero have also all been fired or suspended from
Phonak for doping offenses or alleged offenses.
http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/10646.0.html

> It still doesn't make sense to me that a guy who knows he'll be
> tested if he wins the stage would take a drug.
> You're right--at some point, the denials just start looking stupid.

I think it is a mistake to assume that riders always make smart or
rational decisions and certainly not a good defense. There'd be a lot
of people getting away with their crimes if their defense was "Why
would I do that? That would be stupid." Just read the newspapers......

Vicki

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Jack Bennett

2006-08-01

Very eloquent, but implicit in your last paragraph is your belief that
Floyd is guilty of taking something ("What did you take, how did you
take it, and how long have you been doing this? Why did you do it?").
It is still possible to suppose, instead, that he has already COME
CLEAN and that he's not in fact guilty of anything. Regardless of all
the history of drugs in the sport of cycling, Landis' case deserves to
rise or fall on its own merits, not the guilt of Hamilton, Heras, or
anyone else, and the merits (or lack thereof) remain to be proven.

Jack

--- Dave Campbell wrote:

>
> OBRA-friends:
> You may see this in other publications in coming days, feel free to
> delete if you have heard enough! I felt compelled to state my views
>
> As a rabid cycling fan, I always watch the Tour de France
> with great interest and after nearly twenty-five years in the sport,
> I am in awe of the level of coverage we now get in this country.
> Twenty years ago the sport got a ten minute highlight once a week and
> now I choose from five different 2-3 hour time slots, including live
> coverage! It was devastating to watch Floyd Landis crumble while
> wearing the leader?s jersey, but absolutely spectacular to see his
> audacious attack the following day. It was an exploit like the Tour
> hasn?t seen in ages, a brave move of a true champion, a legend. It
> inspired my training, put a spring in my step, and I thought of how I
> could use Floyd?s story of determination to motivate and encourage
> the athletes I coach or the students in my classroom.
> However, soon my friends, co-workers, and athletes were
> no longer asking my opinion on these exploits or sharing my
> enthusiasm for a great race but rather asking me about the ensuing
> drug scandal! We are hearing all the same rhetoric we have heard
> before as the rider, his coaches, and team grasp at straws?maybe the
> beer the night before triggered the positive (yeah, that seems
> likely?one beer tripled his testosterone) or even that it was the
> same French lab that was ?out to get? Lance Armstrong. Keep in mind
> the limit is 4:1 and he tested 11:1. Some issues stick out?Floyd had
> fourteen tests (including six at the Tour) this year and all were
> negative, surely his own ?naturally high levels? would have triggered
> another positive prior to the one taken after his key stage. And
> what of Floyd?s angry, aggressive behavior beyond the line upon
> finishing his incredible breakaway? Clearly, he was fired up but we
> would also expect some elation and fatigue and not just h
> urling water bottles at pressing journalists, correct?
> Not surprisingly, the contrived responses, often through legal
> counsel continue to fly and continue to numb us: all the riders
> ejected before the Tour began each still proclaim their innocence and
> vow to fight on, Barry Bonds maintains he was given ?flax seed oil?,
> Tyler Hamilton (whose credibility is exactly ZERO after his name was
> all over the seized Fuentes files before the Tour) insists the blood
> test is flawed, and Justin Gatlin is the victim of a vindictive
> masseur. PLEASE. Most of the reports of what REALLY happens in
> sports today come from those with an axe to grind (Spanish pro
> cyclist Jesus Manzano) or a fall guy (Festina soigneur Willy Voet) or
> a borderline nut-case making some bucks (Jose Canseco). The stars
> maintain the status quo, which apparently is dope until caught and
> then deny! Meanwhile, the premier sporting events and achievements
> continue to be tainted by those who cheat. Instead of feeling awe
> and excitement for the victors, we are skeptical, doub
> tful, and have become jaded. In cycling, the LAST THREE GRAND
> TOURS, the pinnacles of the sport, have winners who have either been
> relegated (Heras in the Vuelta), are under suspicion (Basso in the
> Giro), or are currently having a positive test investigated (Landis).
> Is it any surprise that OLN dropped its planned highlight show last
> Sunday or that Germany?s major station (their star Jan Ullrich is
> under investigation) will likely cease to show the Tour? In the
> quest for fame and fortune, the cheaters have bitten the very hand
> that feed s them!
> Mr. Landis, you clearly were raised by a family who taught you about
> honesty and hard work. Your sport is corrupt and dying. Now is the
> time?WHAT DID YOU REALLY DO? No lawyers, no excuses, just the truth.
> Why continue dragging cycling, your good name, the event, and all of
> the public?s belief in sport?s credibility through the mud for MONTHS
> on end while we split legal hairs??? What did you take, how did you
> take it, and how long have you been doing this? Why did you do it?
> Is it the riders decision to dope? The managers? Are their systems
> in place to help? How do so many escape the tests? The only hope of
> fixing this horrific and pervasive problem and restoring the trust of
> the public is to COME CLEAN. We need the voice of a champion who
> feels regret and wants to see things improve. You are the right man
> for the job, Floyd and THE TIME IS NOW.
>
>
>
> Dave Campbell
> adcampbell46@earthlink.net
> EarthLink Revolves Around You.>
_______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

.................................
Jack Bennett
drjackbo@yahoo.com
.................................

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Rick Johnson

2006-08-01

I think I'm numb of it, the damage has been done.

The doubt will remain. Nothing will change that now. The innocent seem
guilty and the guilty act innocent. No one can tell the difference.

Were Floyd were cleared tomorrow some would never get the word. Others
would say there's another cheater that got away.

Even if he's really innocent? After Marco, Roberto, Tyler - how can
anyone truly ever believe again?

We've all been robbed. The only question that now remains: by who?



We'll probably never know. It's life. Go for a ride.



Rick



Dave Campbell wrote:





 


 OBRA-friends:


You may see this in other publications in
coming days, feel free to delete if you have heard enough!  I felt
compelled to state my views


 


           As a rabid
cycling fan, I always watch the Tour de France with great interest and
after nearly twenty-five years in the sport, I am in awe of the level
of coverage we now get in this country.  Twenty
years ago the sport got a ten minute highlight once a week and now I
choose from five different 2-3 hour time slots, including live coverage!  It was devastating to watch Floyd Landis crumble
while wearing the leader’s jersey, but absolutely spectacular to see
his audacious attack the following day.  It was
an exploit like the Tour hasn’t seen in ages, a brave move of a true
champion, a legend.  It inspired my training, pu
t a spring in my step, and I thought of how I could use Floyd’s story
of determination to motivate and encourage the athletes I coach or the
students in my classroom.


            However,
soon my friends, co-workers, and athletes were no longer asking my
opinion on these exploits or sharing my enthusiasm for a great race but
rather asking me about the ensuing drug scandal!  We
are hearing all the same rhetoric we have heard before as the rider,
his coaches, and team grasp at straws…maybe the beer the night before
triggered the positive (yeah, that seems likely…one beer tripled his
testosterone) or even that it was the same French lab that was “out to
get” Lance Armstrong.  Keep in mind the limit is
4:1 and he tested 11:1.  Some issues stick
out…Floyd had fourteen tests (including six at the Tour) this year and
all were negative, su rely his own “naturally high levels” would have
triggered another positive prior to the one taken after his key stage.  And what of Floyd’s angry, aggressive behavior
beyond the line upon finishing his incredible breakaway? 
Clearly, he was fired up but we would also expect some elation
and fatigue and not just hurling water bottles at pressing journalists,
correct?


Not surprisingly, the contrived
responses, often through legal counsel continue to fly and continue to
numb us:  all the riders ejected before the Tour
began each still proclaim their innocence and vow to fight on, Barry
Bonds maintains he was given “flax seed oil”, Tyler Hamilton (whose
credibility is exactly ZERO after his name was all over the seized
Fuentes files before the Tour) insists the blood test is flawed, and
Justin Gatlin is the victim of a vindictive masseur.  PLEASE.  Most of the reports of what REALLY happens in
sports today come from those with an axe to grind (Spanish pro cyclist
Jesus Manzano) or a fall guy (Festina soigneur Willy Voet) or a
borderline nut-case making some bucks (Jose Canseco).&
nbsp;
The stars maintain the status quo, which apparently is
dope until caught and then deny!  Meanwhile, the
premier sporting events and achievements continue to be tainted by
those who cheat.  Instead of feeling awe and
excitement for the victors, we are skeptical, doubtful, and have become
jaded.  In cycling, the LAST THREE GRAND TOURS,
the pinnacles of the sport, have winners who have either been relegated
(Heras in the Vuelta), are under suspicion (Basso in the Giro), or are
currently having a positive test investigated (Landis). 
Is it any surprise that OLN dropped its planned highlight show
last Sunday or that Germany’s major station (their star Jan Ullrich is
under investigation) will likely cease to show the Tour? 
In the quest for fame and fo rtune, the cheaters have bitten
the very hand that feed s them!


Mr. Landis, you clearly were raised by
a family who taught you about honesty and hard work.  Your
sport is corrupt and dying.  Now is the
time…WHAT DID YOU REALLY DO?  No lawyers, no
excuses, just the truth.  Why continue dragging
cycling, your good name, the event, and all of the public’s belief in
sport’s credibility through the mud for MONTHS on end while we split
legal hairs???  What did you take, how did you
take it, and how long have you been doing this?  Why
did you do it?  Is it the riders decision to
dope?  The managers?   Are
their systems in place to help?  How do so many
escape the tests?  The only hope of fixing this
horrific and pervasive problem and restoring the trust of the public is
to COME CLEAN.  We need the voice of a champion
who feels regret and wants to see things improve.  You
are the right man for the job, Floyd and THE TIME IS NOW.


 



 

 

Dave Campbell


EarthLink Revolves Around You.

 




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Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


david baker

2006-08-01

Exactly correct!
----- Original Message -----
From: Dave Campbell
To: obra
Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 7:48 PM
Subject: [OBRA Chat] FLOYD and DRUGS, my thoughts

OBRA-friends:

You may see this in other publications in coming days, feel free to delete if you have heard enough! I felt compelled to state my views

As a rabid cycling fan, I always watch the Tour de France with great interest and after nearly twenty-five years in the sport, I am in awe of the level of coverage we now get in this country. Twenty years ago the sport got a ten minute highlight once a week and now I choose from five different 2-3 hour time slots, including live coverage! It was devastating to watch Floyd Landis crumble while wearing the leader's jersey, but absolutely spectacular to see his audacious attack the following day. It was an exploit like the Tour hasn't seen in ages, a brave move of a true champion, a legend. It inspired my training, pu t a spring in my step, and I thought of how I could use Floyd's story of determination to motivate and encourage the athletes I coach or the students in my classroom.

However, soon my friends, co-workers, and athletes were no longer asking my opinion on these exploits or sharing my enthusiasm for a great race but rather asking me about the ensuing drug scandal! We are hearing all the same rhetoric we have heard before as the rider, his coaches, and team grasp at straws.maybe the beer the night before triggered the positive (yeah, that seems likely.one beer tripled his testosterone) or even that it was the same French lab that was "out to get" Lance Armstrong. Keep in mind the limit is 4:1 and he tested 11:1. Some issues stick out.Floyd had fourteen tests (including six at the Tour) this year and all were negative, su rely his own "naturally high levels" would have triggered another positive prior to the one taken after his key stage. And what of Floyd's angry, aggressive behavior beyond the line upon finishing his incredible breakaway? Clearly, he was fired up but we would also expect some elation and fatigue and not just hurling water bottles at pressing journalists, correct?

Not surprisingly, the contrived responses, often through legal counsel continue to fly and continue to numb us: all the riders ejected before the Tour began each still proclaim their innocence and vow to fight on, Barry Bonds maintains he was given "flax seed oil", Tyler Hamilton (whose credibility is exactly ZERO after his name was all over the seized Fuentes files before the Tour) insists the blood test is flawed, and Justin Gatlin is the victim of a vindictive masseur. PLEASE. Most of the reports of what REALLY happens in sports today come from those with an axe to grind (Spanish pro cyclist Jesus Manzano) or a fall guy (Festina soigneur Willy Voet) or a borderline nut-case making some bucks (Jose Canseco).& nbsp; The stars maintain the status quo, which apparently is dope until caught and then deny! Meanwhile, the premier sporting events and achievements continue to be tainted by those who cheat. Instead of feeling awe and excitement for the victors, we are skeptical, doubtful, and have become jaded. In cycling, the LAST THREE GRAND TOURS, the pinnacles of the sport, have winners who have either been relegated (Heras in the Vuelta), are under suspicion (Basso in the Giro), or are currently having a positive test investigated (Landis). Is it any surprise that OLN dropped its planned highlight show last Sunday or that Germany's major station (their star Jan Ullrich is under investigation) will likely cease to show the Tour? In the quest for fame and fo rtune, the cheaters have bitten the very hand that feed s them!

Mr. Landis, you clearly were raised by a family who taught you about honesty and hard work. Your sport is corrupt and dying. Now is the time.WHAT DID YOU REALLY DO? No lawyers, no excuses, just the truth. Why continue dragging cycling, your good name, the event, and all of the public's belief in sport's credibility through the mud for MONTHS on end while we split legal hairs??? What did you take, how did you take it, and how long have you been doing this? Why did you do it? Is it the riders decision to dope? The managers? Are their systems in place to help? How do so many escape the tests? The only hope of fixing this horrific and pervasive problem and restoring the trust of the public is to COME CLEAN. We need the voice of a champion who feels regret and wants to see things improve. You are the right man for the job, Floyd and THE TIME IS NOW.

Dave Campbell
adcampbell46@earthlink.net
EarthLink Revolves Around You.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Dave Campbell

2006-08-01

OBRA-friends:
You may see this in other publications in coming days, feel free to delete if you have heard enough! I felt compelled to state my views

As a rabid cycling fan, I always watch the Tour de France with great interest and after nearly twenty-five years in the sport, I am in awe of the level of coverage we now get in this country. Twenty years ago the sport got a ten minute highlight once a week and now I choose from five different 2-3 hour time slots, including live coverage! It was devastating to watch Floyd Landis crumble while wearing the leader?s jersey, but absolutely spectacular to see his audacious attack the following day. It was an exploit like the Tour hasn?t seen in ages, a brave move of a true champion, a legend. It inspired my training, put a spring in my step, and I thought of how I could use Floyd?s story of determination to motivate and encourage the athletes I coach or the students in my classroom.
However, soon my friends, co-workers, and athletes were no longer asking my opinion on these exploits or sharing my enthusiasm for a great race but rather asking me about the ensuing drug scandal! We are hearing all the same rhetoric we have heard before as the rider, his coaches, and team grasp at straws?maybe the beer the night before triggered the positive (yeah, that seems likely?one beer tripled his testosterone) or even that it was the same French lab that was ?out to get? Lance Armstrong. Keep in mind the limit is 4:1 and he tested 11:1. Some issues stick out?Floyd had fourteen tests (including six at the Tour) this year and all were negative, surely his own ?naturally high levels? would have triggered another positive prior to the one taken after his key stage. And what of Floyd?s angry, aggressive behavior beyond the line upon finishing his incredible breakaway? Clearly, he was fired up but we would also expect some elation and fatigue and not just h
urling water bottles at pressing journalists, correct?
Not surprisingly, the contrived responses, often through legal counsel continue to fly and continue to numb us: all the riders ejected before the Tour began each still proclaim their innocence and vow to fight on, Barry Bonds maintains he was given ?flax seed oil?, Tyler Hamilton (whose credibility is exactly ZERO after his name was all over the seized Fuentes files before the Tour) insists the blood test is flawed, and Justin Gatlin is the victim of a vindictive masseur. PLEASE. Most of the reports of what REALLY happens in sports today come from those with an axe to grind (Spanish pro cyclist Jesus Manzano) or a fall guy (Festina soigneur Willy Voet) or a borderline nut-case making some bucks (Jose Canseco). The stars maintain the status quo, which apparently is dope until caught and then deny! Meanwhile, the premier sporting events and achievements continue to be tainted by those who cheat. Instead of feeling awe and excitement for the victors, we are skeptical, doub
tful, and have become jaded. In cycling, the LAST THREE GRAND TOURS, the pinnacles of the sport, have winners who have either been relegated (Heras in the Vuelta), are under suspicion (Basso in the Giro), or are currently having a positive test investigated (Landis). Is it any surprise that OLN dropped its planned highlight show last Sunday or that Germany?s major station (their star Jan Ullrich is under investigation) will likely cease to show the Tour? In the quest for fame and fortune, the cheaters have bitten the very hand that feed s them!
Mr. Landis, you clearly were raised by a family who taught you about honesty and hard work. Your sport is corrupt and dying. Now is the time?WHAT DID YOU REALLY DO? No lawyers, no excuses, just the truth. Why continue dragging cycling, your good name, the event, and all of the public?s belief in sport?s credibility through the mud for MONTHS on end while we split legal hairs??? What did you take, how did you take it, and how long have you been doing this? Why did you do it? Is it the riders decision to dope? The managers? Are their systems in place to help? How do so many escape the tests? The only hope of fixing this horrific and pervasive problem and restoring the trust of the public is to COME CLEAN. We need the voice of a champion who feels regret and wants to see things improve. You are the right man for the job, Floyd and THE TIME IS NOW.

Dave Campbell
adcampbell46@earthlink.net
EarthLink Revolves Around You.