Michael O'Hair

OK. Here's my two cents: Think it through and figure the odds. A very
long time ago I was run down in my front yard by a car with no driver. The
odds on that happening once are slim to none; the chance of a repeat
performance is so close to zero as to make no difference. I was soon out in
my front yard again as soon as the body cast came off.

There are roads that I will simply not ride because I don't like the odds.
Cornelius Pass Road coming up from Scapoose/Sauvie Island is one road I will
never take. There is not enough room and there are too many drivers going
way too fast including rednecks driving gravel trucks while cranked up.
There are other roads I will ride only on weekend mornings, etc.
Unfortunately the only way to learn is to try it and see what happens.
Arguing/discussing right of way is academic. The laws of physics are always
in effect.

As for the original posting, most people don't know where the corners of
their car/truck are, let alone a trailer. I hope the woman who was injured
recovers and I hope the jerk who hit her gets nailed for hit and run.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerald M Powell"
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] underwhelming?

> I need to chime in. A narrow road isn't inherently unsafe. Auto/
> bike traffic mix isn't inherently unsafe. Big speed differentials
> increase the risk of driver error, as do short sight lines, confusing
> intersections (indeed, any intersection) cell phones and children in
> the car. What David doesn't point out is that the driver was
> irresponsible.
>
> Jerry

Jerald M Powell

I need to chime in. A narrow road isn't inherently unsafe. Auto/
bike traffic mix isn't inherently unsafe. Big speed differentials
increase the risk of driver error, as do short sight lines, confusing
intersections (indeed, any intersection) cell phones and children in
the car. What David doesn't point out is that the driver was
irresponsible.

Jerry

On Aug 21, 2006, at 3:40 PM, .David.Auker. wrote:

>
>
> John Schader wrote:
>
>> Evan,
>>
>> With all that is going on right now, I do not really have much
>> time to
>> respond to this, but I am. Your email tagline is "Get on your bikes
>> and ride". I have to wonder where you manage to ride a bicycle in
>> complete safety.
>
>
> I agree. Highway 219 may be a bit narrow, but it's a classic twisty
> cycling road. It's a "country road." In another universe, perhaps
> roads like this might have signs saying "No Bicycles" and be the sole
> domain of motorized traffic...but this ain't that universe! Some
> roads
> take more patience on the part of all users, and I'm sorry that was
> lacking by your assailant on Saturday. I really doubt if any jury is
> going to say it's fine for cars to run cyclists down since it was a
> narrow road...man, that kind of thinking can only lead to
> paranoia...staying at home to "Get on your stationary indoor bikes and
> ride."
>
> John, I don't think you should be chided for taking your group ride on
> Hwy 219! All roads have inherent risks...I've had close encounters in
> quiet neighborhoods. The victim of this encounter certainly doesn't
> need to be told she shouldn't have been riding on this road (maybe
> by a
> redneck, but not by another "cyclist!").
>
> David
>
>
>> After a fender bender once when I was still a new driver my father
>> said "You wouldn't have had that accident if you had not been driving
>> the car." Good point. If we don't ride our bikes there won't be any
>> bicycle accidents.
>
> (...)
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Jerald M Powell, AICP
Community Planning
1926 SW Madison St
Portland, OR 97205

503 222 7173
503 799 7823 (cellular)

jpowell@spiritone.com

.David.Auker.

John Schader wrote:

> Evan,
>
> With all that is going on right now, I do not really have much time to
> respond to this, but I am. Your email tagline is "Get on your bikes
> and ride". I have to wonder where you manage to ride a bicycle in
> complete safety.

I agree. Highway 219 may be a bit narrow, but it's a classic twisty
cycling road. It's a "country road." In another universe, perhaps
roads like this might have signs saying "No Bicycles" and be the sole
domain of motorized traffic...but this ain't that universe! Some roads
take more patience on the part of all users, and I'm sorry that was
lacking by your assailant on Saturday. I really doubt if any jury is
going to say it's fine for cars to run cyclists down since it was a
narrow road...man, that kind of thinking can only lead to
paranoia...staying at home to "Get on your stationary indoor bikes and
ride."

John, I don't think you should be chided for taking your group ride on
Hwy 219! All roads have inherent risks...I've had close encounters in
quiet neighborhoods. The victim of this encounter certainly doesn't
need to be told she shouldn't have been riding on this road (maybe by a
redneck, but not by another "cyclist!").

David

> After a fender bender once when I was still a new driver my father
> said "You wouldn't have had that accident if you had not been driving
> the car." Good point. If we don't ride our bikes there won't be any
> bicycle accidents.

(...)

John Schader

Evan,

With all that is going on right now, I do not really have much time to respond to this, but I am. Your email tagline is "Get on your bikes and ride". I have to wonder where you manage to ride a bicycle in complete safety. After a fender bender once when I was still a new driver my father said "You wouldn't have had that accident if you had not been driving the car." Good point. If we don't ride our bikes there won't be any bicycle accidents. I'm sure the driver that hit my friend would love having no bikes on his roads. Yes some roads are more heavily traveled than others and those with shoulders and bike lanes probably have fewer motor vehicle vs. bicycle accidents (like the huge shoulder of Hwy. 47 south of Forest Grove:(. But no one could say that an accident would not have happened if we were on some other road. What would your advice to me be if my friend had been hit on one of the roads you frequent?

You are right that Hwy. 219 can be a little busy. I like quieter roads. Our route included many less busy roads but 219 is a good choice for connecting the route between Newberg and Scholls and Farmington or Progress. I've bicycled that part of 219 dozens of times without incident. Trucks have passed me there or slowed until it was safe to pass. It is a relatively low traffic road compared with Hwy. 99 or the TV Hwy. The ten or fifteen cars and trucks that passed me on that stretch of road on Saturday managed to give enough clearance and were not slowed down. That road is regularly used by many cyclists. You will find the 219 section we were riding is part of bicycle routes described in a number of published books about cycling in Oregon, sold in most local bike shops. Many much busier roads are included in bike route books too. That part of the route is certainly within the norms for riding on roads in the region around Portland. It is no busier or curvier than, for
example, the Columbia River Scenic Highway from Troutdale to Multnomah Falls. Should we all stay off Skyline and Thompson too? I think Hwy. 101 is a designated bike route. It's a lot busier and lacks a decent shoulder in many places. Is that another road I shouldn't ride?

We all know that we take a risk every time we hop on the bike. In the spirit of your response and "advice", someone could just as well say to you after your return from a ride, "What were you doing riding your bicycle on a road?? Shouldn't you be using the bicycle paths provided for you?". We could not ride if we allowed our fear of inattentive or malicious law breaking motorists influence our cycling. The illegal behavior of the boat towing motorist who hit the cyclist on Saturday would just as easily have resulted in hitting a cyclist on a quiet country road on the way to the lake or river boat ramp. In this case, the cyclist's level of experience had nothing to do with the outcome, either. She was riding a straight line right next to the fog line. Under the same circumstances Lance would have been in that ditch too (as I almost was). If a road is open to motor vehicle traffic, then it is possible that riding a bicycle on it will lead to tragedy.

I just want to figure out how to get motorists educated to share the road and drive within the rule of law. How can tolerance be encouraged? And I would like to see punishment for those who break the law and leave the scene of an accident. Your help would be appreciated too, Evan, in keeping an eye out for that red pickup towing a red centurion speed boat.

John

Evan MacKenzie wrote:
If you think my response is underwhelming, imagine how all those people out there on the road who don?t really like us being there at all think. I?m content to wait until I see a safe place to pass a cyclist when I am driving. For many other drivers out there, this is simply not the case.

?That jerk on that bike is delaying me by five seconds ? watch this!?

We ALL need to consider that before we decide to go out and ride on anything from a State highway such as 219 to a little country road. If something like this were to actually proceed to a trial how do you think a jury would react to someone being out on a narrow, high-traffic road with no shoulder? How much sympathy would they have? Sure, the law gives us the right to be there, but does that mean we SHOULD be there? Are there no other roads that might be better to ride on, where the risks are lower?

You think I have no compassion? OK, maybe I am a little low on the compassion scale. I?ll not argue with you on that one. But remember, I am a cyclist who cares about other cyclists? safety. Most people care much less about ANYONE else on the road when they are behind the wheel. So consider that the next time you go out on a road ride, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE. I?d hate to be mourning any one of you.

Believe me, I would much rather write about something pleasant. None of what I have written this morning gives me any joy.

Evan

------------- __o
---------- _ '\<,_
----------(_)/ (_)______Get on your bikes and ride!

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Monty Hill

Whether it be cyclist, pedestrians, or other motorists people driving cars often do not demonstrate the understanding of how deadly a weapon they are aiming down the road.

I have been doing a lot of traveling lately and have seen many broken down cars on the side of the road even where there is no shoulder. As a driver, it is my responsibility to not hit these people parked alongside a road regardless of the posted speed, just as it is my responsibility to not hit any bicyclists. If I hit someone it is my fault. I worry more about hitting someone on some of the narrow curving roads in the west hills than I do on roads such as hwy 26. I wonder what the odds are of some of these quieter streets vs. the hwy's, We all know of the people killed near downtown. In my mind these seem to outweigh those on the highway, but maybe I am mistaken.

There are roads with no shoulders that I as a cyclist avoid. Every bike shop has a map of 'safer' roads to travel in the metro area. But the odds are I will get hit near my house on roads I ride every day when some impatient person comes flying around a corner. And whether I get hit at 35 mph or 65 mph I am writing myself off and find solace in the life insurance policy I took out for my families sake.

Regardless, I reiterate my first statement and believe education is the only means of mitigation. We could start with the drivers test.

Montgomery J. Hill
Associate

TVA Architects Inc.
920 SW Sixth Avenue, Suite 1500
Portland Oregon 97204

phone. 503.220.0668

www.tvapdx.com

>>> "Evan MacKenzie" 8/21/2006 12:02 pm >>>
If you think my response is underwhelming, imagine how all those people
out there on the road who don't really like us being there at all think.
I'm content to wait until I see a safe place to pass a cyclist when I am
driving. For many other drivers out there, this is simply not the case.

"That jerk on that bike is delaying me by five seconds - watch this!"

We ALL need to consider that before we decide to go out and ride on
anything from a State highway such as 219 to a little country road. If
something like this were to actually proceed to a trial how do you think
a jury would react to someone being out on a narrow, high-traffic road
with no shoulder? How much sympathy would they have? Sure, the law gives
us the right to be there, but does that mean we SHOULD be there? Are
there no other roads that might be better to ride on, where the risks
are lower?

You think I have no compassion? OK, maybe I am a little low on the
compassion scale. I'll not argue with you on that one. But remember, I
am a cyclist who cares about other cyclists' safety. Most people care
much less about ANYONE else on the road when they are behind the wheel.
So consider that the next time you go out on a road ride, PLEASE,
PLEASE, PLEASE. I'd hate to be mourning any one of you.

Believe me, I would much rather write about something pleasant. None of
what I have written this morning gives me any joy.

Evan

------------- __o
---------- _ '\<,_
----------(_)/ (_)______Get on your bikes and ride!

Evan MacKenzie

If you think my response is underwhelming, imagine how all those people
out there on the road who don't really like us being there at all think.
I'm content to wait until I see a safe place to pass a cyclist when I am
driving. For many other drivers out there, this is simply not the case.

"That jerk on that bike is delaying me by five seconds - watch this!"

We ALL need to consider that before we decide to go out and ride on
anything from a State highway such as 219 to a little country road. If
something like this were to actually proceed to a trial how do you think
a jury would react to someone being out on a narrow, high-traffic road
with no shoulder? How much sympathy would they have? Sure, the law gives
us the right to be there, but does that mean we SHOULD be there? Are
there no other roads that might be better to ride on, where the risks
are lower?

You think I have no compassion? OK, maybe I am a little low on the
compassion scale. I'll not argue with you on that one. But remember, I
am a cyclist who cares about other cyclists' safety. Most people care
much less about ANYONE else on the road when they are behind the wheel.
So consider that the next time you go out on a road ride, PLEASE,
PLEASE, PLEASE. I'd hate to be mourning any one of you.

Believe me, I would much rather write about something pleasant. None of
what I have written this morning gives me any joy.

Evan

------------- __o
---------- _ '\<,_
----------(_)/ (_)______Get on your bikes and ride!