FW: race promotion

Mike Murray

2006-09-04

I have to point out that although race organizers may not have to put out
cash to purchase gift certificates they do need to put out effort and
resources that could be spent on something else In-kind sponsorship is not
a gift that falls in the race organizer's lap.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Leibowitz, Flo
Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2006 18:08 PM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: [OBRA Chat] FW: race promotion


-----

BTW, your concerns were the reason why people did not want to impose a rule.

Mike

----------

-----Original Message-----
From: Leibowitz, Flo [mailto:fleibowitz@oregonstate.edu]
Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2006 18:01 PM
To: mike.murray@obra.org
Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] race promotion

I think Mike's thinking about prizes has a lot of merit, but perhaps there
could be leeway for small merchandise for cat 4/5. I have to say I really
enjoy the small merchandise prizes I've been lucky enough to get once in a
while. Those $10 gift certificates and the like are pretty special. I think
they are a nice bonus, when the sponsors generosity permits. And I assume
these things are in-kind gifts from sponsors anyhow, and not something the
promoter has to go out and buy.


_____

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org on behalf of Mike Murray
Sent: Sat 9/2/2006 10:15 AM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] race promotion

I agree with the "STOP PAYING BIG PRIZE LISTS" statement. There is no
correlation between prize list and participation or quality of event. Each
race organizer has limited resources and energy and most of them misdirect
that toward developing a prize list rather than towards other things that
would make a good event. I have, in the past, proposed that OBRA adopt a
rule limiting cash prizes to Cat 1/2 fields, merchandise to Cat 1/2/3 and
only allow prizes of no monetary value (ribbons, trophies) to Cat 4/5
fields. This proposed rule has been verbally supported but voted down. One
of the worst things about bike racing is that we have guys who just started
racing last week who expect that they deserve to get paid and actually get
quite pissy when they don't or if the prize is less then what they deem
acceptable. What other sport pays cash to beginners?

I do not totally agree with the "CHARGE US MORE TO DO YOUR RACE". Although
the entry fees to do bike races are small compared to similar charges for
other sports there is an inverse correlation between entry fee and
participation, i.e. the higher the entry fee, the lower the participation.
This means that income for the event will not necessarily increase if the
entry fee goes up as less people will be paying that entry fee. Obviously
there is a sweet spot but predicting where that is will always be a guess.
Since events are generally better if participation is higher keeping entry
fees low is something that we should encourage. OBRA has tried to encourage
this by having a system that tries, as much as possible, to make costs to
the race organizers variable, i.e. tied to participation. If all the costs
were variable the race organizer could figure minimum entry fee charge
easily as it would be his costs per participant. The catch is that there
are some costs that are necessarily fixed (not tied to participation).

Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----
From: Steven R Holland [mailto:srh148@webtv.net]
Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 23:03 PM
To: mhcc@gorge.net
Cc: mike.murray@obra.org; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] race promotion

I'm probably going to regret sending this e mail but......

ATTN RACE PROMOTERS:

If you are not making any $$ at your race, CHARGE US MORE TO DO YOUR RACE
and/or STOP PAYING BIG PRIZE LISTS. Supply and demand baby. If your race had
a waiting list for some categories in 06, charge more in 07.......

Honestly, how many of you racers reading this e mail would stop racing if
there were NO cash prize lists? 5?...10?...20?....I promise, we won't miss
you if you stop racing :-)

I would say 95% of us, or more, do not race for prize $$$ anyways.

Columbia Plateau SR pays "almost" nothing [no offence Mark] and they have a
HUGE turn out because it's an AWESOME race. In Washington the Mason Lake
series [Their version of a BB series] pays NOTHING and they have huge
fields, right David?

When you figure in gas, hotel etc., the entry fee is not a huge % of the
total cost in "most" cases.

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Leibowitz, Flo

2006-09-03


-----

BTW, your concerns were the reason why people did not want to impose a rule.

Mike

----------

-----Original Message-----
From: Leibowitz, Flo [mailto:fleibowitz@oregonstate.edu]
Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2006 18:01 PM
To: mike.murray@obra.org
Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] race promotion


I think Mike's thinking about prizes has a lot of merit, but perhaps there could be leeway for small merchandise for cat 4/5. I have to say I really enjoy the small merchandise prizes I've been lucky enough to get once in a while. Those $10 gift certificates and the like are pretty special. I think they are a nice bonus, when the sponsors generosity permits. And I assume these things are in-kind gifts from sponsors anyhow, and not something the promoter has to go out and buy.


________________________________

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org on behalf of Mike Murray
Sent: Sat 9/2/2006 10:15 AM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] race promotion

I agree with the "STOP PAYING BIG PRIZE LISTS" statement. There is no
correlation between prize list and participation or quality of event. Each
race organizer has limited resources and energy and most of them misdirect
that toward developing a prize list rather than towards other things that
would make a good event. I have, in the past, proposed that OBRA adopt a
rule limiting cash prizes to Cat 1/2 fields, merchandise to Cat 1/2/3 and
only allow prizes of no monetary value (ribbons, trophies) to Cat 4/5
fields. This proposed rule has been verbally supported but voted down. One
of the worst things about bike racing is that we have guys who just started
racing last week who expect that they deserve to get paid and actually get
quite pissy when they don't or if the prize is less then what they deem
acceptable. What other sport pays cash to beginners?

I do not totally agree with the "CHARGE US MORE TO DO YOUR RACE". Although
the entry fees to do bike races are small compared to similar charges for
other sports there is an inverse correlation between entry fee and
participation, i.e. the higher the entry fee, the lower the participation.
This means that income for the event will not necessarily increase if the
entry fee goes up as less people will be paying that entry fee. Obviously
there is a sweet spot but predicting where that is will always be a guess.
Since events are generally better if participation is higher keeping entry
fees low is something that we should encourage. OBRA has tried to encourage
this by having a system that tries, as much as possible, to make costs to
the race organizers variable, i.e. tied to participation. If all the costs
were variable the race organizer could figure minimum entry fee charge
easily as it would be his costs per participant. The catch is that there
are some costs that are necessarily fixed (not tied to participation).

Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----
From: Steven R Holland [mailto:srh148@webtv.net]
Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 23:03 PM
To: mhcc@gorge.net
Cc: mike.murray@obra.org; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] race promotion


I'm probably going to regret sending this e mail but......

ATTN RACE PROMOTERS:

If you are not making any $$ at your race, CHARGE US MORE TO DO YOUR RACE
and/or STOP PAYING BIG PRIZE LISTS. Supply and demand baby. If your race had
a waiting list for some categories in 06, charge more in 07.......

Honestly, how many of you racers reading this e mail would stop racing if
there were NO cash prize lists? 5?...10?...20?....I promise, we won't miss
you if you stop racing :-)

I would say 95% of us, or more, do not race for prize $$$ anyways.

Columbia Plateau SR pays "almost" nothing [no offence Mark] and they have a
HUGE turn out because it's an AWESOME race. In Washington the Mason Lake
series [Their version of a BB series] pays NOTHING and they have huge
fields, right David?

When you figure in gas, hotel etc., the entry fee is not a huge % of the
total cost in "most" cases.



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Patrick wilder

2006-09-01

I rest my case,

I'm pretty sure the entry fees alone won't cover that.

Candi Murray wrote:
v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} I am not privy to the financials of races, but I do know that stage races are more expensive by a factor of about 3. The officials fees alone for this year?s Cascade Classic were $14,000.
Candi


---------------------------------

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Patrick wilder
Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 1:19 PM
To: Matt Plummer; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] race promotion


The OBRA site has a link for promoters you can see what the charges are for races.

The WVC is a USCF race correct? I don't know the break down for their costs but I'm confident to say they are higher than OBRA's fees.

The other point I want to make is that OBRA fees are only part of the story.

Permitts, Venues, Port-o-Potties, food etc, all cost money in addition to OBRA fees.

I helped promote the Hood River Cross Race last year with Veloshop we ran a shoe string budget and were lucky to pretty much just break even for that race. A huge event like WVC cost a lot more.

Matt Plummer wrote:

I've been reading the various opinions that people have been sharing about the
deal with willamette. I've noticed that there has yet to be any mention of race
promotion being a business. As with any business venture there comes its share
of risk. The risk can come in all sorts of forms, but the risk is always
present, so beware.

Along with risk comes responsibility. There is the responsibility to choose a
course, set distances, decide a race fee, and advertise. When I read a race
advertisement I think its safe to assume it is correct. So I show up to the
race understanding what the course is, distance I'll be racing, how much I need
to pay, and what I could win if I do well. If any of these things are inaccurate
there is only one place to look. I wouldn't consider looking beyond a promoter
for answers pertaining to the race they are hosting and promoting.

Lets say I go to the store and buy a widget. When I get home I open the box only
to discover I have been shorted some pieces that were advertised to come in the
box. So I go back to the store and eventually get what I paid for. It is the
stores responsibility to give me what I paid for or I get my money back. Not
once do I think about contacting the stores investors or boycott those
investors. That would be moronic.

That is all these racers are looking for. They paid for a chance to win certain
prizes and only one person is responsible for getting them that. If that person
cannot settle up, than perhaps action is necessary.

Thats the wisdom that I can share. One last question I have is even with the
sponsor not giving what it promised, what happened to all the entry fees? I can
only assume that is a large amount of money. Hmmmm.

Matt Plummer
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Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

~Patrick
/\
/ \/\ __o
/\/ \ --- \<,
_/ \_______(_)/(_)

www.patrickinportland.blogspot.com



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Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
_______________________________________________
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obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

~Patrick
/\
/ \/\ __o
/\/ \ --- \<,
_/ \_______(_)/(_)
www.patrickinportland.blogspot.com


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Candi Murray

2006-09-01

I am not privy to the financials of races, but I do know that stage races
are more expensive by a factor of about 3. The officials fees alone for this
year's Cascade Classic were $14,000.

Candi

_____

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Patrick wilder
Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 1:19 PM
To: Matt Plummer; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] race promotion

The OBRA site has a link for promoters you can see what the charges are for
races.

The WVC is a USCF race correct? I don't know the break down for their costs
but I'm confident to say they are higher than OBRA's fees.

The other point I want to make is that OBRA fees are only part of the story.

Permitts, Venues, Port-o-Potties, food etc, all cost money in addition to
OBRA fees.

I helped promote the Hood River Cross Race last year with Veloshop we ran a
shoe string budget and were lucky to pretty much just break even for that
race. A huge event like WVC cost a lot more.

Matt Plummer wrote:

I've been reading the various opinions that people have been sharing about
the
deal with willamette. I've noticed that there has yet to be any mention of
race
promotion being a business. As with any business venture there comes its
share
of risk. The risk can come in all sorts of forms, but the risk is always
present, so beware.

Along with risk comes responsibility. There is the responsibility to choose
a
course, set distances, decide a race fee, and advertise. When I read a race
advertisement I think its safe to assume it is correct. So I show up to the
race understanding what the course is, distance I'll be racing, how much I
need
to pay, and what I could win if I do well. If any of these things are
inaccurate
there is only one place to look. I wouldn't consider looking beyond a
promoter
for answers pertaining to the race they are hosting and promoting.

Lets say I go to the store and buy a widget. When I get home I open the box
only
to discover I have been shorted some pieces that were advertised to come in
the
box. So I go back to the store and eventually get what I paid for. It is the
stores responsibility to give me what I paid for or I get my money back. Not
once do I think about contacting the stores investors or boycott those
investors. That would be moronic.

That is all these racers are looking for. They paid for a chance to win
certain
prizes and only one person is responsible for getting them that. If that
person
cannot settle up, than perhaps action is necessary.

Thats the wisdom that I can share. One last question I have is even with the
sponsor not giving what it promised, what happened to all the entry fees? I
can
only assume that is a large amount of money. Hmmmm.

Matt Plummer
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

~Patrick
/\
/ \/\ __o
/\/ \ --- \<,
_/ \_______(_)/(_)

www.patrickinportland.blogspot.com

_____

Do you Yahoo!?
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invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail.