OBRA: OBRA Chat: dogs and bike races...

Jon Myers

2001-06-23

   I think that if anyone threatens to sue or actually does sue the city

because of something a dog owner did in a park to a bike race, we can

expect all bike racing on city owned or managed property to suffer the

concequences. I bet the city would be extremely reluctlant to permit

any more bike races that opened them up to that kind of lawsuit risk. I

think that would be bad. There are a lot of races that require some

sort of city related permit (Cyclo-cross, PIRs, Tabor, etc.) and I would

hate to see them all go away.

   It is clearly the dog owner's fault and if anyone is liable for

damages, it is the dog owner and not the city parks. Please think twice

before any more lawsuit talk.

   -Jon Myers (Someone that has to work with the city far more than I

want to for the Pier park cyclo-cross event)

Bill Hooper

2001-06-22

While I can totally understand the anger, frustration...and danger that dogs

represent around bicycles....this last msg from Jonathan Puskas...is said w/

a realistic and more tactful tone than some of the others.....although, my

first instinct of protection and relation for those that I know and care

about personally and even those that I don't would be of a retaliatory tone.

As this is one of very few states in the country that really acknowledge

cyclist for who they are and what they represent...I think it would be in

everyone's best interest there be a more aggresive and productive way that

this, all too important msg be conveyed. As a dog owner and competitive

cyclist I can understand both sides...the focus in mind needs to be that

both sides need to understand. Whomever the owner of the dog is needs, as

well as all dog owners, a very strong msg of the importantance of

controlling "their best friends"...as if they don't...we [cyclist] may lose

or have a seriously injured "best friend".

This can be accomplished w/ a stern but gentle hand and mindset.

Regards,

Bill Hooper

-----Original Message-----

From: Jonathan Puskas [mailto:impu-@yahoo.com]

Sent: Friday, June 22, 2001 12:21 PM

To: tk-@hotmail.com; ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] dogs and bike races...

============================================================

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Here's the simple truth...

If you make the city choose between the bike racers

who use the park 5 days per year and the dog owners

who use the park 365 days per year, the riders will

lose.

We'll do what we can do ensure our presence is better

reflected. Last week, I had 15 volunteers. I ask

riders when they aren't racing to become involved and

marshall the course as well (before AND after they

race). I also ask that this is done with a positive,

non-aggressive tone which promotes cycling and OBRA.

Remember, at the end of the day, WE are the minority.

Yes, we have a right to ride safely, but we won't win

a bullying contest.

Take care,

Jonathan C. Puskas

--- tony kic <tk-@hotmail.com> wrote:

============================================================

Explore the jungle in your backyard -- FREE! eNature

has

bird sounds, Animal Finder, Field Guides, experts,

activities

and more for a suburban safari youll never forget.

http://click.topica.com/caaacsCaVxiDpaVE62Ba/eNature

============================================================

i know, few people are even going to click a message

about this redundant

topic, but i feel like the only way to avoid

accidents like this would be

for the bike race to have a greater presence in the

park. volunteers can be

scarce, and taping off an entire mile of road seems

very laborious, but we

were incredibly lucky that no one was chopped up

into little pieces on

wednesday. joggers, dogs, and even cyclists,

seemingly completely unaware of

the event were causing hazards that could have been

disastrous. a lead car

would probably be more of a hindrance than anything

else, but more course

markings and willing personnel to enforce them would

imply to park goers

that we aren't just a bunch of folks doddling aroung

on ten speeds. as far

as last weeks problematic dog owner, i did'nt even

get crashed out and i

feel awfully vengeful. my second hand image of their

role in hurting a few

of my friends was that of relative indifference, but

i did'nt actually speak

with the responsible party. did anyone find out who

they were, and would

legal rebuttal reflect negatively on the organizers?

it should'nt, but i'm

afraid it would. whoa, i have to go back to work. tk

_________________________________________________________________

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ob-@teleport.com

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=====

Jonathan C. Puskas

159 Fifth Street

Lake Oswego, OR 97034

impu-@yahoo.com

"If you're gonna charge...charge hard!"

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Schreck, George

2001-06-22

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Actually, in this case, I believe that the City will side with us if we

agree to work cooperatively with the City. We were lawfully using the Park,

and dog owners with dogs off leash were not. We need to find a way to

cooperate with the City on this issue, and certainly some constructive self

help as Jonathan recommends will be valuable. Threatening to sue the City

will not further our goals, but working the race and constructively

interacting with the dog owners will accomplish a lot. One thing we need to

understand is that a larger number of dog owners are law abiding and are

willing to self police there types of issues. Also, a large number who do

let their dogs run loose often do not appreciate the danger, as they often

do not appreciate the speed of the racers, and education often is effective

in those instances. In the remaining small minority, I believe that we can

get other dog owners to self police these people, since these types of

incidents do not reflect well on them. there are some local dog

organizations which may be willing to assist us and the City. I intend to

forward some of these e-mails to them to see if we can get them involved as

ultimately it is in their interest to prevent these conflicts.

 George C. Schreck

 Phone: (503) 813-7211

 Fax: (503) 813-7190

-----Original Message-----

From: Jonathan Puskas [mailto:impu-@yahoo.com]

Sent: Friday, June 22, 2001 12:21 PM

To: tk-@hotmail.com; ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] dogs and bike races...

============================================================

Explore the jungle in your backyard -- FREE! eNature has

bird sounds, Animal Finder, Field Guides, experts, activities

and more for a suburban safari you'll never forget.

http://click.topica.com/caaacsyaVxiDpaVzo6Ra/eNature

============================================================

Here's the simple truth...

If you make the city choose between the bike racers

who use the park 5 days per year and the dog owners

who use the park 365 days per year, the riders will

lose.

We'll do what we can do ensure our presence is better

reflected. Last week, I had 15 volunteers. I ask

riders when they aren't racing to become involved and

marshall the course as well (before AND after they

race). I also ask that this is done with a positive,

non-aggressive tone which promotes cycling and OBRA.

Remember, at the end of the day, WE are the minority.

Yes, we have a right to ride safely, but we won't win

a bullying contest.

Take care,

Jonathan C. Puskas

--- tony kic <tk-@hotmail.com> wrote:

============================================================

Explore the jungle in your backyard -- FREE! eNature

has

bird sounds, Animal Finder, Field Guides, experts,

activities

and more for a suburban safari you'll never forget.

http://click.topica.com/caaacsCaVxiDpaVE62Ba/eNature

============================================================

i know, few people are even going to click a message

about this redundant

topic, but i feel like the only way to avoid

accidents like this would be

for the bike race to have a greater presence in the

park. volunteers can be

scarce, and taping off an entire mile of road seems

very laborious, but we

were incredibly lucky that no one was chopped up

into little pieces on

wednesday. joggers, dogs, and even cyclists,

seemingly completely unaware of

the event were causing hazards that could have been

disastrous. a lead car

would probably be more of a hindrance than anything

else, but more course

markings and willing personnel to enforce them would

imply to park goers

that we aren't just a bunch of folks doddling aroung

on ten speeds. as far

as last weeks problematic dog owner, i did'nt even

get crashed out and i

feel awfully vengeful. my second hand image of their

role in hurting a few

of my friends was that of relative indifference, but

i did'nt actually speak

with the responsible party. did anyone find out who

they were, and would

legal rebuttal reflect negatively on the organizers?

it should'nt, but i'm

afraid it would. whoa, i have to go back to work. tk

_________________________________________________________________

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http://explorer.msn.com

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============================================================

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ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to

ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

=====

Jonathan C. Puskas

159 Fifth Street

Lake Oswego, OR 97034

impu-@yahoo.com

"If you're gonna charge...charge hard!"

__________________________________________________

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charset=3Diso-8859-1">

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5.5.2653.12">

<TITLE>RE: [OBRA Chat] dogs and bike races...</TITLE>

</HEAD>

<BODY>

Actually, in this case, I believe that the City will =

side with us if we agree to work cooperatively with the City. We =

were lawfully using the Park, and dog owners with dogs off leash were =

not. We need to find a way to cooperate with the City on this =

issue, and certainly some constructive self help as Jonathan recommends =

will be valuable. Threatening to sue the City will not further =

our goals, but working the race and constructively interacting with the =

dog owners will accomplish a lot. One thing we need to understand =

is that a larger number of dog owners are law abiding and are willing =

to self police there types of issues. Also, a large number who do let =

their dogs run loose often do not appreciate the danger, as they often =

do not appreciate the speed of the racers, and education often is =

effective in those instances. In the remaining small minority, I =

believe that we can get other dog owners to self police these people, =

since these types of incidents do not reflect well on them. there =

are some local dog organizations which may be willing to assist us and =

the City. I intend to forward some of these e-mails to them to =

see if we can get them involved as ultimately it is in their interest =

to prevent these conflicts.

 

 &nb=

sp; &nb=

sp; George C. Schreck

 &nb=

sp; &nb=

sp; Phone: (503) 813-7211

 &nb=

sp; &nb=

sp; Fax: (503) 813-7190



 

-----Original Message-----

 From: Jonathan Puskas [<A =

HREF=3D"mailto:impu-@yahoo.com">mailto:impu-@yahoo.com</A>]=

 Sent: Friday, June 22, 2001 12:21 PM

 To: tk-@hotmail.com; ob-@topica.com

 Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] dogs and bike =

races...



 

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

 Explore the jungle in your backyard -- FREE! eNature =

has

 bird sounds, Animal Finder, Field Guides, experts, =

activities 

 and more for a suburban safari you'll never =

forget.

 <A =

HREF=3D"http://click.topica.com/caaacsyaVxiDpaVzo6Ra/eNature" =

TARGET=3D"_blank">http://click.topica.com/caaacsyaVxiDpaVzo6Ra/eNature</=

A>

 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D



Here's the simple truth...



If you make the city choose between the bike =

racers

 who use the park 5 days per year and the dog =

owners

 who use the park 365 days per year, the riders =

will

 lose.



We'll do what we can do ensure our presence is =

better

 reflected. Last week, I had 15 =

volunteers. I ask

 riders when they aren't racing to become involved =

and

 marshall the course as well (before AND after =

they

 race). I also ask that this is done with a =

positive,

 non-aggressive tone which promotes cycling and =

OBRA. 



Remember, at the end of the day, WE are the minority. =



 Yes, we have a right to ride safely, but we won't =

win

 a bullying contest.



Take care,

 Jonathan C. Puskas



--- tony kic <tk-@hotmail.com> wrote:

 >

 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

 > Explore the jungle in your backyard -- FREE! =

eNature

 > has

 > bird sounds, Animal Finder, Field Guides, =

experts,

 > activities 

 > and more for a suburban safari you'll never =

forget.

 > <A =

HREF=3D"http://click.topica.com/caaacsCaVxiDpaVE62Ba/eNature" =

TARGET=3D"_blank">http://click.topica.com/caaacsCaVxiDpaVE62Ba/eNature</=

A>

 >

 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

 > 

 > 

 > i know, few people are even going to click a =

message

 > about this redundant 

 > topic, but i feel like the only way to =

avoid

 > accidents like this would be 

 > for the bike race to have a greater presence in =

the

 > park. volunteers can be 

 > scarce, and taping off an entire mile of road =

seems

 > very laborious, but we 

 > were incredibly lucky that no one was chopped =

up

 > into little pieces on 

 > wednesday. joggers, dogs, and even =

cyclists,

 > seemingly completely unaware of 

 > the event were causing hazards that could have =

been

 > disastrous. a lead car 

 > would probably be more of a hindrance than =

anything

 > else, but more course 

 > markings and willing personnel to enforce them =

would

 > imply to park goers 

 > that we aren't just a bunch of folks doddling =

aroung

 > on ten speeds. as far 

 > as last weeks problematic dog owner, i did'nt =

even

 > get crashed out and i 

 > feel awfully vengeful. my second hand image of =

their

 > role in hurting a few 

 > of my friends was that of relative =

indifference, but

 > i did'nt actually speak 

 > with the responsible party. did anyone find out =

who

 > they were, and would 

 > legal rebuttal reflect negatively on the =

organizers?

 > it should'nt, but i'm 

 > afraid it would. whoa, i have to go back to =

work. tk

 >

 _______________________________________________________________=

__

 > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer =

at

 > <A HREF=3D"http://explorer.msn.com" =

TARGET=3D"_blank">http://explorer.msn.com</A>

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=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

 > Stretch your dollars.

 > Make George do double duty with amazing deals =

from 

 > TopOffers.

 >

 <A =

HREF=3D"http://click.topica.com/caaacgOaVxiDpaVE62Bf/TopOffers" =

TARGET=3D"_blank">http://click.topica.com/caaacgOaVxiDpaVE62Bf/TopOffers=

</A>

 >

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=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

 > 

 > To respond to the whole group send to

 > ob-@topica.com.

 > To respond to the list manager send to

 > ob-@teleport.com

 > To unsubscribe send to =

obra-uns-@topica.com

 > 

 >

 > 



 

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

 Jonathan C. Puskas

 159 Fifth Street

 Lake Oswego, OR 97034

 impu-@yahoo.com



"If you're gonna charge...charge =

hard!"



__________________________________________________

 Do You Yahoo!?

 Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! =

Mail

 <A HREF=3D"http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/" =

TARGET=3D"_blank">http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/</A>



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Jonathan Puskas

2001-06-22

Here's the simple truth...

If you make the city choose between the bike racers

who use the park 5 days per year and the dog owners

who use the park 365 days per year, the riders will

lose.

We'll do what we can do ensure our presence is better

reflected. Last week, I had 15 volunteers. I ask

riders when they aren't racing to become involved and

marshall the course as well (before AND after they

race). I also ask that this is done with a positive,

non-aggressive tone which promotes cycling and OBRA.

Remember, at the end of the day, WE are the minority.

Yes, we have a right to ride safely, but we won't win

a bullying contest.

Take care,

Jonathan C. Puskas

--- tony kic <tk-@hotmail.com> wrote:

============================================================

Explore the jungle in your backyard -- FREE! eNature

has

bird sounds, Animal Finder, Field Guides, experts,

activities

and more for a suburban safari you?ll never forget.

http://click.topica.com/caaacsCaVxiDpaVE62Ba/eNature

============================================================

i know, few people are even going to click a message

about this redundant

topic, but i feel like the only way to avoid

accidents like this would be

for the bike race to have a greater presence in the

park. volunteers can be

scarce, and taping off an entire mile of road seems

very laborious, but we

were incredibly lucky that no one was chopped up

into little pieces on

wednesday. joggers, dogs, and even cyclists,

seemingly completely unaware of

the event were causing hazards that could have been

disastrous. a lead car

would probably be more of a hindrance than anything

else, but more course

markings and willing personnel to enforce them would

imply to park goers

that we aren't just a bunch of folks doddling aroung

on ten speeds. as far

as last weeks problematic dog owner, i did'nt even

get crashed out and i

feel awfully vengeful. my second hand image of their

role in hurting a few

of my friends was that of relative indifference, but

i did'nt actually speak

with the responsible party. did anyone find out who

they were, and would

legal rebuttal reflect negatively on the organizers?

it should'nt, but i'm

afraid it would. whoa, i have to go back to work. tk

_________________________________________________________________

Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at

http://explorer.msn.com

============================================================

Stretch your dollars.

Make George do double duty with amazing deals from

TopOffers.

http://click.topica.com/caaacgOaVxiDpaVE62Bf/TopOffers

============================================================

To respond to the whole group send to

ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to

ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

=====

Jonathan C. Puskas

159 Fifth Street

Lake Oswego, OR 97034

impu-@yahoo.com

"If you're gonna charge...charge hard!"

__________________________________________________

Do You Yahoo!?

Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail

http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/

tony kic

2001-06-22

i know, few people are even going to click a message about this redundant

topic, but i feel like the only way to avoid accidents like this would be

for the bike race to have a greater presence in the park. volunteers can be

scarce, and taping off an entire mile of road seems very laborious, but we

were incredibly lucky that no one was chopped up into little pieces on

wednesday. joggers, dogs, and even cyclists, seemingly completely unaware of

the event were causing hazards that could have been disastrous. a lead car

would probably be more of a hindrance than anything else, but more course

markings and willing personnel to enforce them would imply to park goers

that we aren't just a bunch of folks doddling aroung on ten speeds. as far

as last weeks problematic dog owner, i did'nt even get crashed out and i

feel awfully vengeful. my second hand image of their role in hurting a few

of my friends was that of relative indifference, but i did'nt actually speak

with the responsible party. did anyone find out who they were, and would

legal rebuttal reflect negatively on the organizers? it should'nt, but i'm

afraid it would. whoa, i have to go back to work. tk

_________________________________________________________________

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