Mike Murray

Gary Malcolm wrote:
"3. Some racers don't pay, sign in or see a release. These folks can sue at
whim... and given their obvious investment and responsibility it's only a
matter of time. This is probably the biggest reason they should be
blackballed from further involvement in OBRA activities without
pity."

All in all OBRA has to carry coverage based on the potential that the waver
will be challenged (successfully or not), and it's the smart thing to do."

Racers who do not sign in and/or do not pay entry are in violation of rules
13.2 and 15 and can be suspended. Riders need to sign the waiver to become
OBRA members and then again at every race. Even if they do not sign the
waiver at a single race one could present the argument that they are aware
of the waiver by demonstrating that it was signed before, that it is posted
on the web page, etc. Of course, this does not mean that they could not sue.
One of the principles of the US system is that any one can sue and any time
for just about anything. Prevailing in the suit is another issue. There is
an issue with a participant that does not join OBRA, does not register, etc.
but those are pretty rare.

Regardless of this, OBRA does not have a choice about carrying coverage. It
would be impossible to do bike races without having liability coverage as
road use authorities and land owners will not allow races without coverage.
It is impossible to purchase liability insurance without also purchasing
accident coverage since liability carriers require this as a condition of
purchase. What is possible is that OBRA can not submit claims for injuries
since these are generally not OBRA's responsibility. In the future this is
likely what will happen.

Bottom line is if you fall and get injured at a bike race do not expect that
any of your medical costs will be covered by insurance purchased by OBRA.
You need to insure that yourself.

Mike Murray

Malcolm, Gary

George,

I am completely on board with that - health insurance is for the individual
or government to deal with (whatever! ). My only concern in this
venue is OBRA's liability as it pertains to suits based on medical claims.

As to the enforceability of releases... the law is one thing, the jury is
another. My company is very legally active and you would not believe who
sues and what for - or maybe you would! Something needs to change, but until
that time I'm willing to contribute a bit more to OBRA to help shoulder the
burden.

G

-----Original Message-----
From: GEORGE SCHRECK [mailto:gschreckchat@hughes.net]
Sent: December 12, 2006 8:58 AM
To: gmalcolm@professionalcredit.com; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Insurance Costs

Actually, you are not completely correct.

In Oregon, the releases are enforceable, even in cases of negligence.

Second, we are not talking about getting rid of insurance. We are
talking about not allowing claims where OBRA is not liable either
because of no negligence or a release. That will reduce most of the
claims and reduce the cost of insurance. This policy should be a
liability policy and not a health insurance policy for those too
irresponsible to carry insurance.

----Original Message----
From: gmalcolm@professionalcredit.com
Date: 12/12/2006 8:34 AM
To:
Subj: Re: [OBRA Chat] Insurance Costs

Tell me if I'm wrong... but I think there are three problems (others
may
follow) with relying solely on the OBRA release.

1. If OBRA, or an agent of OBRA (i.e. promoter, landowner) is
negligent or
partially negligent in some underlying safety factor then forget it!
An
example might be a flagger leaving their corner early. It might
happen, I've
seen it happen and if OBRA didn't have insurance to cover expenses
after a
resulting wreck they'd be crazy!

2. There's the cost/benefit analysis by the insurance company... going
to
court is expensive, and potentially losing millions because jurors
make a
decision in favor of the plaintiff is not a benefit to the board
meeting
minutes at Mega-Corp Insurers LTD. Settling for less than potential
court
losses is what these folks pay actuarials for - and they are very well
paid
:-) Counsel for accident victims know this game well, as do the
insurance
companies so coverage reflects these settlement costs as a business
necessity.

3. Some racers don't pay, sign in or see a release. These folks can
sue at
whim... and given their obvious investment and responsibility it's
only a
matter of time. This is probably the biggest reason they should
be
blackballed from further involvement in OBRA activities without pity.

All in all OBRA has to carry coverage based on the potential that the
waver
will be challenged (successfully or not), and it's the smart thing to
do.

Gary Malcolm

-----Original Message-----
From: David Oliphant [mailto:ehdo@comcast.net]
Sent: December 12, 2006 8:19 AM
To: Chris; David Marsh; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Insurance Costs

I would agree with Mr. Marsh's opinion.. . it's like if you join a
health club and hurt yourself. . . . the club isn't responsible you
are
and I hope the OBRA releases are iron clad and even then someone would
likely, sooner or later, challenge that. .

----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris"
To: "David Marsh" ;
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 3:22 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Insurance Costs

>I think there should be a kind of community charge that we can all
chip
> into. It will encourage more to race and invite more competition.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Marsh"
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2006 9:43 AM
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Insurance Costs
>
>
>> There is no doubt that cycling is an expensive sport. We CHOOSE to
>> participate in a race or not. I say require proof of insurance or
offer
>> a
>> limited racing policy. The costs of personal health insurance
should be
>> passed on to the individual riders who CHOOSE not to insure
themselves.
>> I refuse to get into the politics of health insurance and
government
>> here,
>> Acknowledge your own personal responsibilty and pay for it
yourself, or
>> don't race.
>> I agree that OBRA and other organizations should carry insurance to
>> protect against negligence, etc., but where the individual rider is
>> responsible for mangaging the costs of the INHERENT risks
associated with
>> the sport, they should take care of it themselves.
>> For those of you who are uninsured, Please be OK with paying for a
one
>> day
>> policy when you CHOOSE to race, or forget buying those new race
wheels,
>> or
>> your daily latte and go out and purchase insurance.
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

GEORGE SCHRECK

Actually, you are not completely correct.

In Oregon, the releases are enforceable, even in cases of negligence.

Second, we are not talking about getting rid of insurance. We are
talking about not allowing claims where OBRA is not liable either
because of no negligence or a release. That will reduce most of the
claims and reduce the cost of insurance. This policy should be a
liability policy and not a health insurance policy for those too
irresponsible to carry insurance.

----Original Message----
From: gmalcolm@professionalcredit.com
Date: 12/12/2006 8:34 AM
To:
Subj: Re: [OBRA Chat] Insurance Costs

Tell me if I'm wrong... but I think there are three problems (others
may
follow) with relying solely on the OBRA release.

1. If OBRA, or an agent of OBRA (i.e. promoter, landowner) is
negligent or
partially negligent in some underlying safety factor then forget it!
An
example might be a flagger leaving their corner early. It might
happen, I've
seen it happen and if OBRA didn't have insurance to cover expenses
after a
resulting wreck they'd be crazy!

2. There's the cost/benefit analysis by the insurance company... going
to
court is expensive, and potentially losing millions because jurors
make a
decision in favor of the plaintiff is not a benefit to the board
meeting
minutes at Mega-Corp Insurers LTD. Settling for less than potential
court
losses is what these folks pay actuarials for - and they are very well
paid
:-) Counsel for accident victims know this game well, as do the
insurance
companies so coverage reflects these settlement costs as a business
necessity.

3. Some racers don't pay, sign in or see a release. These folks can
sue at
whim... and given their obvious investment and responsibility it's
only a
matter of time. This is probably the biggest reason they should
be
blackballed from further involvement in OBRA activities without pity.

All in all OBRA has to carry coverage based on the potential that the
waver
will be challenged (successfully or not), and it's the smart thing to
do.

Gary Malcolm

-----Original Message-----
From: David Oliphant [mailto:ehdo@comcast.net]
Sent: December 12, 2006 8:19 AM
To: Chris; David Marsh; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Insurance Costs

I would agree with Mr. Marsh's opinion.. . it's like if you join a
health club and hurt yourself. . . . the club isn't responsible you
are
and I hope the OBRA releases are iron clad and even then someone would
likely, sooner or later, challenge that. .

----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris"
To: "David Marsh" ;
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 3:22 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Insurance Costs

>I think there should be a kind of community charge that we can all
chip
> into. It will encourage more to race and invite more competition.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Marsh"
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2006 9:43 AM
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Insurance Costs
>
>
>> There is no doubt that cycling is an expensive sport. We CHOOSE to
>> participate in a race or not. I say require proof of insurance or
offer
>> a
>> limited racing policy. The costs of personal health insurance
should be
>> passed on to the individual riders who CHOOSE not to insure
themselves.
>> I refuse to get into the politics of health insurance and
government
>> here,
>> Acknowledge your own personal responsibilty and pay for it
yourself, or
>> don't race.
>> I agree that OBRA and other organizations should carry insurance to
>> protect against negligence, etc., but where the individual rider is
>> responsible for mangaging the costs of the INHERENT risks
associated with
>> the sport, they should take care of it themselves.
>> For those of you who are uninsured, Please be OK with paying for a
one
>> day
>> policy when you CHOOSE to race, or forget buying those new race
wheels,
>> or
>> your daily latte and go out and purchase insurance.
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

GEORGE SCHRECK

I already pay for health insurance. Why should I now pay for people who chose to not pay for health insurance. As someone mentioned earlier, he chose to not buy health insurance as he would preferr to assume the risk and invest the money elsewhere. If he chose to assume he risk, then let him do so. Why should I pay his tab while he invests his money elsewhere. Most peopel who can afford to by expensive bicycle equipment, can afford health insurance. It may mean that they just do not get to buy that expensive carbon fiber wheel set. Frankly, it is irresponsible to engage is a risky sport and not get insurance, then expect others to pick up the slack.

----Original Message----
From: training_log4you@hotmail.com
Date: 12/12/2006 3:22 AM
To: "David Marsh",
Subj: Re: [OBRA Chat] Insurance Costs

I think there should be a kind of community charge that we can all chip
into. It will encourage more to race and invite more competition.

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Marsh"
To:
Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2006 9:43 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Insurance Costs

> There is no doubt that cycling is an expensive sport. We CHOOSE to
> participate in a race or not. I say require proof of insurance or offer a
> limited racing policy. The costs of personal health insurance should be
> passed on to the individual riders who CHOOSE not to insure themselves.
> I refuse to get into the politics of health insurance and government here,
> Acknowledge your own personal responsibilty and pay for it yourself, or
> don't race.
> I agree that OBRA and other organizations should carry insurance to
> protect against negligence, etc., but where the individual rider is
> responsible for mangaging the costs of the INHERENT risks associated with
> the sport, they should take care of it themselves.
> For those of you who are uninsured, Please be OK with paying for a one day
> policy when you CHOOSE to race, or forget buying those new race wheels, or
> your daily latte and go out and purchase insurance.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Malcolm, Gary

Tell me if I'm wrong... but I think there are three problems (others may
follow) with relying solely on the OBRA release.

1. If OBRA, or an agent of OBRA (i.e. promoter, landowner) is negligent or
partially negligent in some underlying safety factor then forget it! An
example might be a flagger leaving their corner early. It might happen, I've
seen it happen and if OBRA didn't have insurance to cover expenses after a
resulting wreck they'd be crazy!

2. There's the cost/benefit analysis by the insurance company... going to
court is expensive, and potentially losing millions because jurors make a
decision in favor of the plaintiff is not a benefit to the board meeting
minutes at Mega-Corp Insurers LTD. Settling for less than potential court
losses is what these folks pay actuarials for - and they are very well paid
:-) Counsel for accident victims know this game well, as do the insurance
companies so coverage reflects these settlement costs as a business
necessity.

3. Some racers don't pay, sign in or see a release. These folks can sue at
whim... and given their obvious investment and responsibility it's only a
matter of time. This is probably the biggest reason they should be
blackballed from further involvement in OBRA activities without pity.

All in all OBRA has to carry coverage based on the potential that the waver
will be challenged (successfully or not), and it's the smart thing to do.

Gary Malcolm

-----Original Message-----
From: David Oliphant [mailto:ehdo@comcast.net]
Sent: December 12, 2006 8:19 AM
To: Chris; David Marsh; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Insurance Costs

I would agree with Mr. Marsh's opinion.. . it's like if you join a
health club and hurt yourself. . . . the club isn't responsible you are
and I hope the OBRA releases are iron clad and even then someone would
likely, sooner or later, challenge that. .

----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris"
To: "David Marsh" ;
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 3:22 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Insurance Costs

>I think there should be a kind of community charge that we can all chip
> into. It will encourage more to race and invite more competition.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Marsh"
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2006 9:43 AM
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Insurance Costs
>
>
>> There is no doubt that cycling is an expensive sport. We CHOOSE to
>> participate in a race or not. I say require proof of insurance or offer
>> a
>> limited racing policy. The costs of personal health insurance should be
>> passed on to the individual riders who CHOOSE not to insure themselves.
>> I refuse to get into the politics of health insurance and government
>> here,
>> Acknowledge your own personal responsibilty and pay for it yourself, or
>> don't race.
>> I agree that OBRA and other organizations should carry insurance to
>> protect against negligence, etc., but where the individual rider is
>> responsible for mangaging the costs of the INHERENT risks associated with
>> the sport, they should take care of it themselves.
>> For those of you who are uninsured, Please be OK with paying for a one
>> day
>> policy when you CHOOSE to race, or forget buying those new race wheels,
>> or
>> your daily latte and go out and purchase insurance.
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Chris

The only reason why I am responding to these messages is because I am on
winter break and it is raining up in the mountains.

I think that an accident causing major injuries can be blamed on other
racers. A cyclist can injure themselves while avoiding another potential
accident. And at the same rate another cyclist can crash into another
cyclist that is on the ground already.

Racing is that way.... it is a community sport and needs to be shared in
all aspects. We might even encourage further cautiousness and reduce
accidents.

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Oliphant"
To: "Chris" ; "David Marsh"
;
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 8:18 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Insurance Costs

>I would agree with Mr. Marsh's opinion.. . it's like if you join a
> health club and hurt yourself. . . . the club isn't responsible you are
> and I hope the OBRA releases are iron clad and even then someone would
> likely, sooner or later, challenge that. .
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chris"
> To: "David Marsh" ;
> Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 3:22 AM
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Insurance Costs
>
>
>>I think there should be a kind of community charge that we can all chip
>> into. It will encourage more to race and invite more competition.
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "David Marsh"
>> To:
>> Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2006 9:43 AM
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Insurance Costs
>>
>>
>>> There is no doubt that cycling is an expensive sport. We CHOOSE to
>>> participate in a race or not. I say require proof of insurance or offer
>>> a
>>> limited racing policy. The costs of personal health insurance should be
>>> passed on to the individual riders who CHOOSE not to insure themselves.
>>> I refuse to get into the politics of health insurance and government
>>> here,
>>> Acknowledge your own personal responsibilty and pay for it yourself, or
>>> don't race.
>>> I agree that OBRA and other organizations should carry insurance to
>>> protect against negligence, etc., but where the individual rider is
>>> responsible for mangaging the costs of the INHERENT risks associated
>>> with
>>> the sport, they should take care of it themselves.
>>> For those of you who are uninsured, Please be OK with paying for a one
>>> day
>>> policy when you CHOOSE to race, or forget buying those new race wheels,
>>> or
>>> your daily latte and go out and purchase insurance.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OBRA mailing list
>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

David Oliphant

I would agree with Mr. Marsh's opinion.. . it's like if you join a
health club and hurt yourself. . . . the club isn't responsible you are
and I hope the OBRA releases are iron clad and even then someone would
likely, sooner or later, challenge that. .

----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris"
To: "David Marsh" ;
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 3:22 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Insurance Costs

>I think there should be a kind of community charge that we can all chip
> into. It will encourage more to race and invite more competition.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Marsh"
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2006 9:43 AM
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Insurance Costs
>
>
>> There is no doubt that cycling is an expensive sport. We CHOOSE to
>> participate in a race or not. I say require proof of insurance or offer
>> a
>> limited racing policy. The costs of personal health insurance should be
>> passed on to the individual riders who CHOOSE not to insure themselves.
>> I refuse to get into the politics of health insurance and government
>> here,
>> Acknowledge your own personal responsibilty and pay for it yourself, or
>> don't race.
>> I agree that OBRA and other organizations should carry insurance to
>> protect against negligence, etc., but where the individual rider is
>> responsible for mangaging the costs of the INHERENT risks associated with
>> the sport, they should take care of it themselves.
>> For those of you who are uninsured, Please be OK with paying for a one
>> day
>> policy when you CHOOSE to race, or forget buying those new race wheels,
>> or
>> your daily latte and go out and purchase insurance.
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Chris

I think there should be a kind of community charge that we can all chip
into. It will encourage more to race and invite more competition.

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Marsh"
To:
Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2006 9:43 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Insurance Costs

> There is no doubt that cycling is an expensive sport. We CHOOSE to
> participate in a race or not. I say require proof of insurance or offer a
> limited racing policy. The costs of personal health insurance should be
> passed on to the individual riders who CHOOSE not to insure themselves.
> I refuse to get into the politics of health insurance and government here,
> Acknowledge your own personal responsibilty and pay for it yourself, or
> don't race.
> I agree that OBRA and other organizations should carry insurance to
> protect against negligence, etc., but where the individual rider is
> responsible for mangaging the costs of the INHERENT risks associated with
> the sport, they should take care of it themselves.
> For those of you who are uninsured, Please be OK with paying for a one day
> policy when you CHOOSE to race, or forget buying those new race wheels, or
> your daily latte and go out and purchase insurance.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

David Marsh

There is no doubt that cycling is an expensive sport. We CHOOSE to participate in a race or not. I say require proof of insurance or offer a limited racing policy. The costs of personal health insurance should be passed on to the individual riders who CHOOSE not to insure themselves.
I refuse to get into the politics of health insurance and government here, Acknowledge your own personal responsibilty and pay for it yourself, or don't race.
I agree that OBRA and other organizations should carry insurance to protect against negligence, etc., but where the individual rider is responsible for mangaging the costs of the INHERENT risks associated with the sport, they should take care of it themselves.
For those of you who are uninsured, Please be OK with paying for a one day policy when you CHOOSE to race, or forget buying those new race wheels, or your daily latte and go out and purchase insurance.

GEORGE SCHRECK

Even if you want to self insure somewhat, you should at least have a
policy with a high deductible, which is fairly inexpensive. It
prevents you form losing everything if you have a major illness or
injury, and from a societal point of view, it is the right thing to do
to prevent hospital's from having to cover your costs and pass them on
to the rest of us who do have insurance, which then raises our rates.
This is not a decision that just affects you. It affects everyone
else.

----Original Message----
From: dirtsurf@clearwire.net
Date: 12/06/2006 6:00 PM
To: , "Terry Keele",

Subj: Re: [OBRA Chat] Insurance Costs

Yeah I think it would have an extrememly negative effect on
participation
and probably cause some sort of new race organization to start up.
Personally I decided not to get health insurance because I would
rather
invest my discretionary income and hope to have enough money at some
point
to consider myself self-insured. It is like the seatbelt and helmet
laws and
I am one of those that wants to let survival of the fittest take it's
course.
Even having that rule won't fix the problem, obra will still need
insurance
because people will race without it just like there are huge amounts
of
people driving right now without car insurance.
Paying more to race does not bother me.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Murray"
To: "'Terry Keele'" ;
Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 1:19 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Insurance Costs

> Requiring proof of medical insurance would be an administrative
burden but
> is probably do-able. It may be a good idea but it would have a
negative
> effect on participation. This may be needed though.
>
> Mike Murray
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org]
On
> Behalf Of Terry Keele
> Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 11:36 AM
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: [OBRA Chat] Insurance Costs
>
>
> I think it would be great if we could solve the nations insurance
> problems.
> However, I dont think well get it done between now and when the
premium is
> due. With that said, I have a question for Mike.
>
> How much of an administrative burden would it be to OBRA and
promoters to
> require proof of medical insurance? What comes to mind are one day
> licenses? If OBRA adopted the policy of requiring proof of
insurance
> would
> the premiums to OBRA for medical and liability go down
substantially?
>
> If the answer is that it's not too much of a burden and costs to
OBRA and
> promoters would go down, "we" as a community should explore this
topic
> further. I think we'd being doing license holders a great service
to tell
> them "you are not covered and therefore cannot race for your own
good."
> I've personally received over 70k in medical bills and although I
was
> insured, it was quite frightening.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Chris

I am from Iceland. One of the "medically covered advanced countries".

I once tore off my little toe in a judo (Martial Arts) accident. I had no
insurance, but
knew that I did not need it. It cost me about 1200 króna to fix up my
toe...

That comes up to about less than a 15 dollar processing fee. Children under
the age of 16 also get "free" dental insurance.

A little off topic, but hopefully an exemplum of what America can be too.
These medical policies need to be brought off the "profit margin" and put
into the power of the people. After all, that is what medical insurance is
all about.

I think a few years ago, in America, people were left to die because they
couldn't afford medication or a new lung, kidney, etc.. And that goes
double
for poor African American communities.

I think there are close to a thousand Americans, if not, who migrate to
Canada each
year for a "better life". I heard this last year on one of the big news
channels.

I still love America and I wish you all the best when I move back to Europe.

Good Luck,

----- Original Message -----
From: "david baker"
To: ; "'Terry Keele'" ;

Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 6:00 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Insurance Costs

> Yeah I think it would have an extrememly negative effect on participation
> and probably cause some sort of new race organization to start up.
> Personally I decided not to get health insurance because I would rather
> invest my discretionary income and hope to have enough money at some point
> to consider myself self-insured. It is like the seatbelt and helmet laws
> and
> I am one of those that wants to let survival of the fittest take it's
> course.
> Even having that rule won't fix the problem, obra will still need
> insurance
> because people will race without it just like there are huge amounts of
> people driving right now without car insurance.
> Paying more to race does not bother me.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mike Murray"
> To: "'Terry Keele'" ;
> Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 1:19 PM
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Insurance Costs
>
>
>> Requiring proof of medical insurance would be an administrative burden
>> but
>> is probably do-able. It may be a good idea but it would have a negative
>> effect on participation. This may be needed though.
>>
>> Mike Murray
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
>> Behalf Of Terry Keele
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 11:36 AM
>> To: obra@list.obra.org
>> Subject: [OBRA Chat] Insurance Costs
>>
>>
>> I think it would be great if we could solve the nations insurance
>> problems.
>> However, I dont think well get it done between now and when the premium
>> is
>> due. With that said, I have a question for Mike.
>>
>> How much of an administrative burden would it be to OBRA and promoters to
>> require proof of medical insurance? What comes to mind are one day
>> licenses? If OBRA adopted the policy of requiring proof of insurance
>> would
>> the premiums to OBRA for medical and liability go down substantially?
>>
>> If the answer is that it's not too much of a burden and costs to OBRA and
>> promoters would go down, "we" as a community should explore this topic
>> further. I think we'd being doing license holders a great service to
>> tell
>> them "you are not covered and therefore cannot race for your own good."
>> I've personally received over 70k in medical bills and although I was
>> insured, it was quite frightening.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

david baker

Yeah I think it would have an extrememly negative effect on participation
and probably cause some sort of new race organization to start up.
Personally I decided not to get health insurance because I would rather
invest my discretionary income and hope to have enough money at some point
to consider myself self-insured. It is like the seatbelt and helmet laws and
I am one of those that wants to let survival of the fittest take it's
course.
Even having that rule won't fix the problem, obra will still need insurance
because people will race without it just like there are huge amounts of
people driving right now without car insurance.
Paying more to race does not bother me.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Murray"
To: "'Terry Keele'" ;
Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 1:19 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Insurance Costs

> Requiring proof of medical insurance would be an administrative burden but
> is probably do-able. It may be a good idea but it would have a negative
> effect on participation. This may be needed though.
>
> Mike Murray
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
> Behalf Of Terry Keele
> Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 11:36 AM
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: [OBRA Chat] Insurance Costs
>
>
> I think it would be great if we could solve the nations insurance
> problems.
> However, I dont think well get it done between now and when the premium is
> due. With that said, I have a question for Mike.
>
> How much of an administrative burden would it be to OBRA and promoters to
> require proof of medical insurance? What comes to mind are one day
> licenses? If OBRA adopted the policy of requiring proof of insurance
> would
> the premiums to OBRA for medical and liability go down substantially?
>
> If the answer is that it's not too much of a burden and costs to OBRA and
> promoters would go down, "we" as a community should explore this topic
> further. I think we'd being doing license holders a great service to tell
> them "you are not covered and therefore cannot race for your own good."
> I've personally received over 70k in medical bills and although I was
> insured, it was quite frightening.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

Malcolm, Gary

Eek! I was thinking more about covering the few thousand in bump up for the
additional medical that OBRA must currently carry. If we had to purchase a
policy for each uninsured rider, God help us.

I wonder if, among the many riders who read this list, one is not a tax
lawyer or agent who might have some insight on this subject (maximum
indemnification at minimum cost).

Regards,

Gary Malcolm

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Murray [mailto:mike.murray@obra.org]
Sent: December 06, 2006 1:22 PM
To: 'Malcolm, Gary'; 'Terry Keele'; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Insurance Costs

The problem with this plan is the "few $$" would need to be around
$300-600/year to cover the cost of accident insurance for that uninsured
person.

Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Malcolm, Gary
Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 11:37 AM
To: 'Terry Keele'; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Insurance Costs

Or possibly just add an OBRA 'tax' of a few $$ if proof of insurance is
missing to help defray the extra fee? This could happen once at membership
application time so each racer could shoulder a little of the burden.

Which reminds me to kick down a bit extra on this years application :-)

Thank You OBRA... you're worth every dime at 10 times the price!

Gary Malcolm

-----Original Message-----
From: Terry Keele [mailto:terry.keele@agedwards.com]
Sent: December 06, 2006 11:36 AM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Insurance Costs

I think it would be great if we could solve the nations insurance problems.
However, I dont think well get it done between now and when the premium is
due. With that said, I have a question for Mike.

How much of an administrative burden would it be to OBRA and promoters to
require proof of medical insurance? What comes to mind are one day
licenses? If OBRA adopted the policy of requiring proof of insurance would
the premiums to OBRA for medical and liability go down substantially?

If the answer is that it's not too much of a burden and costs to OBRA and
promoters would go down, "we" as a community should explore this topic
further. I think we'd being doing license holders a great service to tell
them "you are not covered and therefore cannot race for your own good." I've
personally received over 70k in medical bills and although I was insured, it
was quite frightening. _______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Mike Murray

The problem with this plan is the "few $$" would need to be around
$300-600/year to cover the cost of accident insurance for that uninsured
person.

Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Malcolm, Gary
Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 11:37 AM
To: 'Terry Keele'; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Insurance Costs

Or possibly just add an OBRA 'tax' of a few $$ if proof of insurance is
missing to help defray the extra fee? This could happen once at membership
application time so each racer could shoulder a little of the burden.

Which reminds me to kick down a bit extra on this years application :-)

Thank You OBRA... you're worth every dime at 10 times the price!

Gary Malcolm

-----Original Message-----
From: Terry Keele [mailto:terry.keele@agedwards.com]
Sent: December 06, 2006 11:36 AM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Insurance Costs

I think it would be great if we could solve the nations insurance problems.
However, I dont think well get it done between now and when the premium is
due. With that said, I have a question for Mike.

How much of an administrative burden would it be to OBRA and promoters to
require proof of medical insurance? What comes to mind are one day
licenses? If OBRA adopted the policy of requiring proof of insurance would
the premiums to OBRA for medical and liability go down substantially?

If the answer is that it's not too much of a burden and costs to OBRA and
promoters would go down, "we" as a community should explore this topic
further. I think we'd being doing license holders a great service to tell
them "you are not covered and therefore cannot race for your own good." I've
personally received over 70k in medical bills and although I was insured, it
was quite frightening. _______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Mike Murray

Requiring proof of medical insurance would be an administrative burden but
is probably do-able. It may be a good idea but it would have a negative
effect on participation. This may be needed though.

Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Terry Keele
Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 11:36 AM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Insurance Costs

I think it would be great if we could solve the nations insurance problems.
However, I dont think well get it done between now and when the premium is
due. With that said, I have a question for Mike.

How much of an administrative burden would it be to OBRA and promoters to
require proof of medical insurance? What comes to mind are one day
licenses? If OBRA adopted the policy of requiring proof of insurance would
the premiums to OBRA for medical and liability go down substantially?

If the answer is that it's not too much of a burden and costs to OBRA and
promoters would go down, "we" as a community should explore this topic
further. I think we'd being doing license holders a great service to tell
them "you are not covered and therefore cannot race for your own good."
I've personally received over 70k in medical bills and although I was
insured, it was quite frightening.

Malcolm, Gary

Or possibly just add an OBRA 'tax' of a few $$ if proof of insurance is
missing to help defray the extra fee? This could happen once at membership
application time so each racer could shoulder a little of the burden.

Which reminds me to kick down a bit extra on this years application :-)

Thank You OBRA... you're worth every dime at 10 times the price!

Gary Malcolm

-----Original Message-----
From: Terry Keele [mailto:terry.keele@agedwards.com]
Sent: December 06, 2006 11:36 AM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Insurance Costs

I think it would be great if we could solve the nations insurance problems.
However, I dont think well get it done between now and when the premium is
due. With that said, I have a question for Mike.

How much of an administrative burden would it be to OBRA and promoters to
require proof of medical insurance? What comes to mind are one day
licenses? If OBRA adopted the policy of requiring proof of insurance would
the premiums to OBRA for medical and liability go down substantially?

If the answer is that it's not too much of a burden and costs to OBRA and
promoters would go down, "we" as a community should explore this topic
further. I think we'd being doing license holders a great service to tell
them "you are not covered and therefore cannot race for your own good."
I've personally received over 70k in medical bills and although I was
insured, it was quite frightening.

Terry Keele

I think it would be great if we could solve the nation?s insurance problems. However, I don?t think we?ll get it done between now and when the premium is due. With that said, I have a question for Mike.

How much of an administrative burden would it be to OBRA and promoters to require proof of medical insurance? What comes to mind are one day licenses? If OBRA adopted the policy of requiring proof of insurance would the premiums to OBRA for medical and liability go down substantially?

If the answer is that it's not too much of a burden and costs to OBRA and promoters would go down, "we" as a community should explore this topic further. I think we'd being doing license holders a great service to tell them "you are not covered and therefore cannot race for your own good." I've personally received over 70k in medical bills and although I was insured, it was quite frightening.