legally speaking- I thought this was interesting from VeloNews

gschreckchat@comcast.net

2007-01-21

That explains why that motorist got right behind me and leaned on the horn the other day. He was trying to imporve my racing. I completely misunderstood his motivation.

--

George Schreck
gschreckchat@comcast.net
(503) 502-0425

-------------- Original message --------------
From: tokarev1@ix.netcom.com

> This part just killed me!!! :)
>
> "I pulled over and asked him what he was doing. He thought
> motor-pacing was an effective method of speed training because the cyclist
> would force themselves to go faster and faster to avoid being run over by a
> motor-vehicle."
>
> -K
>
> -----Original Message-----
> >From: Candi Murray
> >Sent: Jan 20, 2007 10:27 AM
> >To: obra@list.obra.org
> >Subject: [OBRA Chat] legally speaking- I thought this was interesting from
> VeloNews
> >
> >Legally Speaking - with Bob Mionske: Too close for comfort
> >By Robert Mionske JD
> >This report filed January 18, 2007
> >Dear Bob,
> >I am getting ready for the new season of racing and am planning out my
> >training schedule in preparation for the spring races. My teammate and I
> >want to work on our leg speed and plan to motor-pace behind my car. Can I
> >get a ticket for pacing him like this?
> >Peter S.
> >Eugene, Oregon
> >
> >
> >
> >Dear Peter,
> >I do not recommend that you motor-pace your friend. But if you insist, I
> >offer the possible legal ramifications as well as some basic pacing advice.
> >This is the classic "do as I say, not as I do" lecture. In fact, when I was
> >racing and training, I wasn't even smart enough to limit my motor-pacing to
> >willing and complicit drivers.
> >
> >I was riding a borrowed cyclo-cross bike with limited gearing and was spun
> >out going downhill with my head down, when the woman I was drafting hit her
> >brakes for no reason (or maybe she did have a reason!). We had made eye
> >contact through her rear view mirror and I remember thinking that she had a
> >strange resemblance to the woman in the movie "Misery."
> >
> >Anyway, this was a two-lane one-way street and after I ran into her bumper,
> >I flew upside down between the lanes for a long time before I landed on my
> >back still strapped into the toe-clips. The driver didn't stop and, for a
> >while, neither did the other traffic, which continued to pass me on both
> >sides. After I managed to drag my carcass off the street, an ambulance
> >arrived, as well as the police. I was on my way to convincing the cop that I
> >was lawfully riding in traffic and "changing lanes" when this driver
> >"unexpectedly braked," when up walked an off-duty police officer. He
> >presented his version of the story. Aapparently, he was traveling too slowly
> >for me and I had passed between him and other vehicles before settling in
> >behind the Kathy Bates look-alike.
> >
> >I was ticketed for following too closely.
> >
> >One of the only times I organized a motor pace session was almost equally
> >disastrous. A friend of a friend kept offering to take me out motor-pacing
> >and I finally agreed. We made our way to a quiet country road and began our
> >session. I got up to speed, but he simply followed behind me. I kept waving
> >for him to pass me and he took my waiving as a command to get even closer to
> >my rear wheel and rev his engine louder ala Johan Bruyneel style.
> >Eventually, I pulled over and asked him what he was doing. He thought
> >motor-pacing was an effective method of speed training because the cyclist
> >would force themselves to go faster and faster to avoid being run over by a
> >motor-vehicle.
> >
> >I opted for an easy ride by myself and laughed out loud every time I
> >reflected on this innovative "ride-for-your-life" training method.
> >
> >Now to your question. You know how everyone always says, "we'd do it, but
> >the lawyers won't let us?" Well, in this instance, there is a lot a truth to
> >that old saw. Not only can both you and your friend get into trouble, you
> >will be amazed at all the different ways you can get into hot water.
> >
> >Our home state, Oregon, is a good example, because its traffic laws are
> >fairly standard and therefore, my answer should apply to most states.
> >
> >Let's start with the obvious. The Oregon Traffic Code makes bicyclists
> >riding upon a public way subject to the provisions of the traffic code, and
> >extends to them the rights and duties of motor vehicle operators. Section
> >811.485 makes it a Class B traffic offense to
> >
> >"follow another vehicle more closely than is reasonable and prudent."
> >So right off the bat, we can ticket your friend for following too closely.
> >Next, section 811.140 of the traffic code makes reckless driving a Class A
> >misdemeanor. Note that this is no longer just a traffic offense, it's a
> >misdemeanor. That means, although highly unlikely, one could face up to a
> >year in jail for this one. By "reckless" the statute means:
> >
> >"A person is aware of and consciously disregards a substantial and
> >unjustifiable risk that the result will occur or that the circumstance
> >exists. The risk must be of such nature and degree that disregard thereof
> >constitutes a gross deviation from the standard of care that a reasonable
> >person would observe in a situation."
> >This might be particularly attractive to a law enforcement officer because
> >both you and your friend could get busted for the same act. Of course, you
> >could get lucky and merely draw a ticket for careless driving. That's a
> >Class B traffic offense, unless he crashes, in which case you could both
> >pull a Class A traffic offense. That's a suspended license and $600.
> >(Whether you can get your driver's license suspended for violating a traffic
> >law while riding your bike is a fascinating question that we'll save for
> >another day.)
> >If your friend crashed and the officer just wanted to ruin your day, he
> >could cite you for vehicular assault of a bicyclist. Sound like a stretch?
> >Section 811.060(2)(a) includes within the definition of that offense:
> >
> >"A person [who] recklessly operates a vehicle in a manner that results in
> >contact between the person's vehicle and a bicycle operated by a person or a
> >person operating a bicycle."
> >Because "recklessly" is defined the same way as in reckless driving, if the
> >cyclist you are motorpacing bumps into the back of your car and crashes, you
> >could be cited for a Class A misdemeanor and, again, face a possible year in
> >jail, even though you never intended to harm him.
> >Of course, this is all worse case scenario stuff and in all the years my
> >teammates and I motor paced, I don't remember any problems with the police
> >(if readers have been pulled over and ticketed or want to share their motor
> >pacing experiences with the law, please e-mail me).
> >
> >If you are stopped by a police officer for motor pacing, I recommend calmly
> >discussing the competitive reasons for motor pacing and your vast experience
> >in doing so, all the time using a voice of contrition. The officer may let
> >you continue with a caveat "to be careful" or command you to cease pacing
> >altogether, both of which are better than being ticketed.
> >
> >A related subject involves insurance coverage for injuries sustained while
> >motor pacing. Most automobile insurance policies exclude coverage if the car
> >is used in a "race or other contest of speed." I have found no published
> >cases in which a bicyclist motor pacing a car crashed, but in a 1966 Alabama
> >case, Alabama Farm Bureau Insurance v. Goodman, two friends, one on a
> >bicycle and the other in a car, raced each other down the block. The
> >bicyclist was drafting the car when they collided, injuring the cyclist.
> >Because the "speed of their respective vehicles was of the essence," in
> >their contest, the judge determined that they were involved in a
> >"competitive speed test," and that the motorist's insurance carrier did not
> >have to pay the bicyclist's claim.
> >
> >Let's assume that your friend, rather than looking to your automobile
> >insurance carrier, tries to get his medical insurance or homeowner's
> >insurance policy to pay. In the 1992 Minnesota case of State Farm Insurance
> >v. Seefeld, the court concluded that where an accident results from a
> >combined motor vehicle and non-motor vehicle incident, a homeowners or
> >individual medical insurance carrier can be forced to cover the expenses of
> >their customer. However, most homeowners and medical insurance carriers
> >contain what is called an "extraordinary risk" exception. If the customer
> >engages in an unusual activity that is extraordinarily dangerous and gets
> >hurt, the insurance company is off the hook. While typical bicycle riding
> >has frequently been held to not be an "extraordinarily dangerous activity,"
> >motorpacing a foot behind a car at 30 mph is going to be problematic.
> >
> >While my personal experience and belief lead me to conclude that motor
> >pacing has proven value for serious cyclists, I do not recommend using this
> >form of training, as it is dangerous and clearly illegal. If you are going
> >to motor pace, I suggest using a motorcycle, as it is easier to avoid
> >collisions, it simulates race conditions better than an auto and is less
> >likely that you will get pulled over by the police. If you are going to
> >motor pace behind an automobile only use someone who has hours of experience
> >driving with a cyclist on his/her bumper, make sure you can see through the
> >windows of the vehicle. Don't look at the bumper and only motor pace on
> >lightly traveled roads.
> >
> >Before drafting behind either a motorcycle or automobile make sure you and
> >the driver have gone over all commands and contingencies including how to
> >handle sudden stops, intersections, potholes, police, variations of speed
> >etcetera.
> >
> >Good luck and be careful out there.
> >Bob
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >OBRA mailing list
> >obra@list.obra.org
> >http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> >Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


tokarev1@ix.netcom.com

2007-01-20

This part just killed me!!! :)

"I pulled over and asked him what he was doing. He thought
motor-pacing was an effective method of speed training because the cyclist
would force themselves to go faster and faster to avoid being run over by a
motor-vehicle."

-K

-----Original Message-----
>From: Candi Murray
>Sent: Jan 20, 2007 10:27 AM
>To: obra@list.obra.org
>Subject: [OBRA Chat] legally speaking- I thought this was interesting from VeloNews
>
>Legally Speaking - with Bob Mionske: Too close for comfort
>By Robert Mionske JD
>This report filed January 18, 2007
>Dear Bob,
>I am getting ready for the new season of racing and am planning out my
>training schedule in preparation for the spring races. My teammate and I
>want to work on our leg speed and plan to motor-pace behind my car. Can I
>get a ticket for pacing him like this?
>Peter S.
>Eugene, Oregon
>
>
>
>Dear Peter,
>I do not recommend that you motor-pace your friend. But if you insist, I
>offer the possible legal ramifications as well as some basic pacing advice.
>This is the classic "do as I say, not as I do" lecture. In fact, when I was
>racing and training, I wasn't even smart enough to limit my motor-pacing to
>willing and complicit drivers.
>
>I was riding a borrowed cyclo-cross bike with limited gearing and was spun
>out going downhill with my head down, when the woman I was drafting hit her
>brakes for no reason (or maybe she did have a reason!). We had made eye
>contact through her rear view mirror and I remember thinking that she had a
>strange resemblance to the woman in the movie "Misery."
>
>Anyway, this was a two-lane one-way street and after I ran into her bumper,
>I flew upside down between the lanes for a long time before I landed on my
>back still strapped into the toe-clips. The driver didn't stop and, for a
>while, neither did the other traffic, which continued to pass me on both
>sides. After I managed to drag my carcass off the street, an ambulance
>arrived, as well as the police. I was on my way to convincing the cop that I
>was lawfully riding in traffic and "changing lanes" when this driver
>"unexpectedly braked," when up walked an off-duty police officer. He
>presented his version of the story. Aapparently, he was traveling too slowly
>for me and I had passed between him and other vehicles before settling in
>behind the Kathy Bates look-alike.
>
>I was ticketed for following too closely.
>
>One of the only times I organized a motor pace session was almost equally
>disastrous. A friend of a friend kept offering to take me out motor-pacing
>and I finally agreed. We made our way to a quiet country road and began our
>session. I got up to speed, but he simply followed behind me. I kept waving
>for him to pass me and he took my waiving as a command to get even closer to
>my rear wheel and rev his engine louder ala Johan Bruyneel style.
>Eventually, I pulled over and asked him what he was doing. He thought
>motor-pacing was an effective method of speed training because the cyclist
>would force themselves to go faster and faster to avoid being run over by a
>motor-vehicle.
>
>I opted for an easy ride by myself and laughed out loud every time I
>reflected on this innovative "ride-for-your-life" training method.
>
>Now to your question. You know how everyone always says, "we'd do it, but
>the lawyers won't let us?" Well, in this instance, there is a lot a truth to
>that old saw. Not only can both you and your friend get into trouble, you
>will be amazed at all the different ways you can get into hot water.
>
>Our home state, Oregon, is a good example, because its traffic laws are
>fairly standard and therefore, my answer should apply to most states.
>
>Let's start with the obvious. The Oregon Traffic Code makes bicyclists
>riding upon a public way subject to the provisions of the traffic code, and
>extends to them the rights and duties of motor vehicle operators. Section
>811.485 makes it a Class B traffic offense to
>
>"follow another vehicle more closely than is reasonable and prudent."
>So right off the bat, we can ticket your friend for following too closely.
>Next, section 811.140 of the traffic code makes reckless driving a Class A
>misdemeanor. Note that this is no longer just a traffic offense, it's a
>misdemeanor. That means, although highly unlikely, one could face up to a
>year in jail for this one. By "reckless" the statute means:
>
>"A person is aware of and consciously disregards a substantial and
>unjustifiable risk that the result will occur or that the circumstance
>exists. The risk must be of such nature and degree that disregard thereof
>constitutes a gross deviation from the standard of care that a reasonable
>person would observe in a situation."
>This might be particularly attractive to a law enforcement officer because
>both you and your friend could get busted for the same act. Of course, you
>could get lucky and merely draw a ticket for careless driving. That's a
>Class B traffic offense, unless he crashes, in which case you could both
>pull a Class A traffic offense. That's a suspended license and $600.
>(Whether you can get your driver's license suspended for violating a traffic
>law while riding your bike is a fascinating question that we'll save for
>another day.)
>If your friend crashed and the officer just wanted to ruin your day, he
>could cite you for vehicular assault of a bicyclist. Sound like a stretch?
>Section 811.060(2)(a) includes within the definition of that offense:
>
>"A person [who] recklessly operates a vehicle in a manner that results in
>contact between the person's vehicle and a bicycle operated by a person or a
>person operating a bicycle."
>Because "recklessly" is defined the same way as in reckless driving, if the
>cyclist you are motorpacing bumps into the back of your car and crashes, you
>could be cited for a Class A misdemeanor and, again, face a possible year in
>jail, even though you never intended to harm him.
>Of course, this is all worse case scenario stuff and in all the years my
>teammates and I motor paced, I don't remember any problems with the police
>(if readers have been pulled over and ticketed or want to share their motor
>pacing experiences with the law, please e-mail me).
>
>If you are stopped by a police officer for motor pacing, I recommend calmly
>discussing the competitive reasons for motor pacing and your vast experience
>in doing so, all the time using a voice of contrition. The officer may let
>you continue with a caveat "to be careful" or command you to cease pacing
>altogether, both of which are better than being ticketed.
>
>A related subject involves insurance coverage for injuries sustained while
>motor pacing. Most automobile insurance policies exclude coverage if the car
>is used in a "race or other contest of speed." I have found no published
>cases in which a bicyclist motor pacing a car crashed, but in a 1966 Alabama
>case, Alabama Farm Bureau Insurance v. Goodman, two friends, one on a
>bicycle and the other in a car, raced each other down the block. The
>bicyclist was drafting the car when they collided, injuring the cyclist.
>Because the "speed of their respective vehicles was of the essence," in
>their contest, the judge determined that they were involved in a
>"competitive speed test," and that the motorist's insurance carrier did not
>have to pay the bicyclist's claim.
>
>Let's assume that your friend, rather than looking to your automobile
>insurance carrier, tries to get his medical insurance or homeowner's
>insurance policy to pay. In the 1992 Minnesota case of State Farm Insurance
>v. Seefeld, the court concluded that where an accident results from a
>combined motor vehicle and non-motor vehicle incident, a homeowners or
>individual medical insurance carrier can be forced to cover the expenses of
>their customer. However, most homeowners and medical insurance carriers
>contain what is called an "extraordinary risk" exception. If the customer
>engages in an unusual activity that is extraordinarily dangerous and gets
>hurt, the insurance company is off the hook. While typical bicycle riding
>has frequently been held to not be an "extraordinarily dangerous activity,"
>motorpacing a foot behind a car at 30 mph is going to be problematic.
>
>While my personal experience and belief lead me to conclude that motor
>pacing has proven value for serious cyclists, I do not recommend using this
>form of training, as it is dangerous and clearly illegal. If you are going
>to motor pace, I suggest using a motorcycle, as it is easier to avoid
>collisions, it simulates race conditions better than an auto and is less
>likely that you will get pulled over by the police. If you are going to
>motor pace behind an automobile only use someone who has hours of experience
>driving with a cyclist on his/her bumper, make sure you can see through the
>windows of the vehicle. Don't look at the bumper and only motor pace on
>lightly traveled roads.
>
>Before drafting behind either a motorcycle or automobile make sure you and
>the driver have gone over all commands and contingencies including how to
>handle sudden stops, intersections, potholes, police, variations of speed
>etcetera.
>
>Good luck and be careful out there.
>Bob
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>OBRA mailing list
>obra@list.obra.org
>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


Candi Murray

2007-01-20

Legally Speaking - with Bob Mionske: Too close for comfort
By Robert Mionske JD
This report filed January 18, 2007
Dear Bob,
I am getting ready for the new season of racing and am planning out my
training schedule in preparation for the spring races. My teammate and I
want to work on our leg speed and plan to motor-pace behind my car. Can I
get a ticket for pacing him like this?
Peter S.
Eugene, Oregon

Dear Peter,
I do not recommend that you motor-pace your friend. But if you insist, I
offer the possible legal ramifications as well as some basic pacing advice.
This is the classic "do as I say, not as I do" lecture. In fact, when I was
racing and training, I wasn't even smart enough to limit my motor-pacing to
willing and complicit drivers.

I was riding a borrowed cyclo-cross bike with limited gearing and was spun
out going downhill with my head down, when the woman I was drafting hit her
brakes for no reason (or maybe she did have a reason!). We had made eye
contact through her rear view mirror and I remember thinking that she had a
strange resemblance to the woman in the movie "Misery."

Anyway, this was a two-lane one-way street and after I ran into her bumper,
I flew upside down between the lanes for a long time before I landed on my
back still strapped into the toe-clips. The driver didn't stop and, for a
while, neither did the other traffic, which continued to pass me on both
sides. After I managed to drag my carcass off the street, an ambulance
arrived, as well as the police. I was on my way to convincing the cop that I
was lawfully riding in traffic and "changing lanes" when this driver
"unexpectedly braked," when up walked an off-duty police officer. He
presented his version of the story. Aapparently, he was traveling too slowly
for me and I had passed between him and other vehicles before settling in
behind the Kathy Bates look-alike.

I was ticketed for following too closely.

One of the only times I organized a motor pace session was almost equally
disastrous. A friend of a friend kept offering to take me out motor-pacing
and I finally agreed. We made our way to a quiet country road and began our
session. I got up to speed, but he simply followed behind me. I kept waving
for him to pass me and he took my waiving as a command to get even closer to
my rear wheel and rev his engine louder ala Johan Bruyneel style.
Eventually, I pulled over and asked him what he was doing. He thought
motor-pacing was an effective method of speed training because the cyclist
would force themselves to go faster and faster to avoid being run over by a
motor-vehicle.

I opted for an easy ride by myself and laughed out loud every time I
reflected on this innovative "ride-for-your-life" training method.

Now to your question. You know how everyone always says, "we'd do it, but
the lawyers won't let us?" Well, in this instance, there is a lot a truth to
that old saw. Not only can both you and your friend get into trouble, you
will be amazed at all the different ways you can get into hot water.

Our home state, Oregon, is a good example, because its traffic laws are
fairly standard and therefore, my answer should apply to most states.

Let's start with the obvious. The Oregon Traffic Code makes bicyclists
riding upon a public way subject to the provisions of the traffic code, and
extends to them the rights and duties of motor vehicle operators. Section
811.485 makes it a Class B traffic offense to

"follow another vehicle more closely than is reasonable and prudent."
So right off the bat, we can ticket your friend for following too closely.
Next, section 811.140 of the traffic code makes reckless driving a Class A
misdemeanor. Note that this is no longer just a traffic offense, it's a
misdemeanor. That means, although highly unlikely, one could face up to a
year in jail for this one. By "reckless" the statute means:

"A person is aware of and consciously disregards a substantial and
unjustifiable risk that the result will occur or that the circumstance
exists. The risk must be of such nature and degree that disregard thereof
constitutes a gross deviation from the standard of care that a reasonable
person would observe in a situation."
This might be particularly attractive to a law enforcement officer because
both you and your friend could get busted for the same act. Of course, you
could get lucky and merely draw a ticket for careless driving. That's a
Class B traffic offense, unless he crashes, in which case you could both
pull a Class A traffic offense. That's a suspended license and $600.
(Whether you can get your driver's license suspended for violating a traffic
law while riding your bike is a fascinating question that we'll save for
another day.)
If your friend crashed and the officer just wanted to ruin your day, he
could cite you for vehicular assault of a bicyclist. Sound like a stretch?
Section 811.060(2)(a) includes within the definition of that offense:

"A person [who] recklessly operates a vehicle in a manner that results in
contact between the person's vehicle and a bicycle operated by a person or a
person operating a bicycle."
Because "recklessly" is defined the same way as in reckless driving, if the
cyclist you are motorpacing bumps into the back of your car and crashes, you
could be cited for a Class A misdemeanor and, again, face a possible year in
jail, even though you never intended to harm him.
Of course, this is all worse case scenario stuff and in all the years my
teammates and I motor paced, I don't remember any problems with the police
(if readers have been pulled over and ticketed or want to share their motor
pacing experiences with the law, please e-mail me).

If you are stopped by a police officer for motor pacing, I recommend calmly
discussing the competitive reasons for motor pacing and your vast experience
in doing so, all the time using a voice of contrition. The officer may let
you continue with a caveat "to be careful" or command you to cease pacing
altogether, both of which are better than being ticketed.

A related subject involves insurance coverage for injuries sustained while
motor pacing. Most automobile insurance policies exclude coverage if the car
is used in a "race or other contest of speed." I have found no published
cases in which a bicyclist motor pacing a car crashed, but in a 1966 Alabama
case, Alabama Farm Bureau Insurance v. Goodman, two friends, one on a
bicycle and the other in a car, raced each other down the block. The
bicyclist was drafting the car when they collided, injuring the cyclist.
Because the "speed of their respective vehicles was of the essence," in
their contest, the judge determined that they were involved in a
"competitive speed test," and that the motorist's insurance carrier did not
have to pay the bicyclist's claim.

Let's assume that your friend, rather than looking to your automobile
insurance carrier, tries to get his medical insurance or homeowner's
insurance policy to pay. In the 1992 Minnesota case of State Farm Insurance
v. Seefeld, the court concluded that where an accident results from a
combined motor vehicle and non-motor vehicle incident, a homeowners or
individual medical insurance carrier can be forced to cover the expenses of
their customer. However, most homeowners and medical insurance carriers
contain what is called an "extraordinary risk" exception. If the customer
engages in an unusual activity that is extraordinarily dangerous and gets
hurt, the insurance company is off the hook. While typical bicycle riding
has frequently been held to not be an "extraordinarily dangerous activity,"
motorpacing a foot behind a car at 30 mph is going to be problematic.

While my personal experience and belief lead me to conclude that motor
pacing has proven value for serious cyclists, I do not recommend using this
form of training, as it is dangerous and clearly illegal. If you are going
to motor pace, I suggest using a motorcycle, as it is easier to avoid
collisions, it simulates race conditions better than an auto and is less
likely that you will get pulled over by the police. If you are going to
motor pace behind an automobile only use someone who has hours of experience
driving with a cyclist on his/her bumper, make sure you can see through the
windows of the vehicle. Don't look at the bumper and only motor pace on
lightly traveled roads.

Before drafting behind either a motorcycle or automobile make sure you and
the driver have gone over all commands and contingencies including how to
handle sudden stops, intersections, potholes, police, variations of speed
etcetera.

Good luck and be careful out there.
Bob