John Benenate

BOOM! There it is.
The definitivie truth from a World Champion who came
up on Junior gears.

Is anybody going to debate with her?

jb

there is more speed in leg speed than power

--- Larssyn Staley wrote:

> I Raced on junior gears (maximum 52x14) as a junior
> women in all of my
> races. With junior gears I could get in breaks at
> PIR in the 1,2 men's
> races, place in pro women road races, crits and TT's
> in the US. Using
> junior gears are not at all a disadvantage. Juniors
> need to utilize their
> time as a junior to learn to pedal and race more
> efficiently. Now racing
> with the Pro women in Europe my coach is putting my
> back on a 50 x 12, and I
> am not nervous in the least bit that I'll run out of
> gear this spring at the
> early classics in Belgium in the flat sections. If
> any juniors need some
> workouts to improve their spin i'd be happy to give
> some tips. My best
> advice to juniors would be learn how to ride your
> bike, the ability to very
> one's cadence opens up tons of opportunities in
> races, and when you can go
> 50-75kph hours on end like the pros that are riding
> 53 x 12 's then go ahead
> and add it, but i don't think there are too many
> Oregonians who are doing
> those kinds of races. Email me if you disagree.
>
> Larssyn
>
>
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Larssyn Staley

I Raced on junior gears (maximum 52x14) as a junior women in all of my
races. With junior gears I could get in breaks at PIR in the 1,2 men's
races, place in pro women road races, crits and TT's in the US. Using
junior gears are not at all a disadvantage. Juniors need to utilize their
time as a junior to learn to pedal and race more efficiently. Now racing
with the Pro women in Europe my coach is putting my back on a 50 x 12, and I
am not nervous in the least bit that I'll run out of gear this spring at the
early classics in Belgium in the flat sections. If any juniors need some
workouts to improve their spin i'd be happy to give some tips. My best
advice to juniors would be learn how to ride your bike, the ability to very
one's cadence opens up tons of opportunities in races, and when you can go
50-75kph hours on end like the pros that are riding 53 x 12 's then go ahead
and add it, but i don't think there are too many Oregonians who are doing
those kinds of races. Email me if you disagree.

Larssyn

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David Auker

Edward Kendrick Sr wrote:
>
> Have a Happy Valentine's Day

I'll 2nd that!

Also, have a happy spinning day...fixed-gear riding has classically been
a winter device for many reasons, among which is developing a good
spin. And, what could be better than a group spinning 63" gears? All
are welcome on Saturday, 9:00, River City Bicycles parking lot for a 20+
mile spin (though the one hill of repute, a two-block uppage, will make
the gear seem huge!). Only two more rides: 2/17 and 2/24...

Love, David

Edward Kendrick Sr

In New England, we had a high school league with no gearing restrictions, and it was angering to switch over to USCF restricted gears. What made things worse, was that my asthma just doesn't allow me to push as much air as required for 120+ rpm's.

This has helped me develop my personal beliefs, such as "Get your laws (and seat belts) off my body!" Don't dictate gearing restrictions or doctor's appointments. Don't force me to breathe second-hand smoke. Big Brother - back off!

The children "are immune to your consultations."

Have a Happy Valentine's Day,
Ed

----- Original Message ----
From: "Chris Harnish, M.S."
To: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 2:48:57 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Juniors-If you race out of state read this

David's comments are not uncommon, but are also unfounded. While I do not really buy much of the rationale for junior gearing, I do support its inclusion in the rules because it helps teaching kids how to spin a gear and utilize leg speed over force; why we cannot use functional development for a rationale one can only guess. However, the idea that these kids will be disadvantaged is simply false, because I've seen firsthand from juniors I coached that gearing never affected their performance. In fact, one rider from my 2004 junior team routinely bested much larger and 'powerful' riders using only a 45X12 - FYI, 45X12 will provide a maximum gear at or barely under the UCI limit of 7.9 m. Moreover, I did not let any of my riders switch back and forth between junior and senior gears during the season because they were racing several National and International races. That being said, none of them had trouble picking up results in Senior races and all of my riders moved up
at least one category and one even moved up to a cat 1 racing 1-2 races in New England. The bottom line is that if kids aren't placing in Senior events it isn't their gearing, but their development.

Best Wishes, Chris Harnish, M.S., HFI Exercise Physiologist & Coach ESP Training Systems "Unlocking the secrets to your success!" www.espanswers.com Ph 508.965.3863 Fx 508.457.1712
Interesting rule...I guess I can see the benefits, but it seems pretty harsh making an 18 year old racing in Cat 3 to be handicapped. (I can attest to what happens being under-geared: in a CA road race my chain was not working on the small cog...I was already cutting it a bit close, so this gave me something like 94" or less. In an extended high-speed (big gear) section, having to pedal way faster than everyone else did me in (that means dropped, Roger!).) Anyway, shouldn't the following say: "If the crank arms complete more than a full revolution in this distance, the bike fails." ?? instead of:
The bike is rolled backwards straight towards the other mark until the crank arms have completed a full revolution. If the crank arms do not complete a full revolution in this distance, the bike fails.
I don't know...what do you think....are we lucky in OBRA land to not have this, or should this be a rule? (In the OBRA Rules, I do a "find word" for restriction and limit, but don't see that we levy this on our Juniors) Maybe this should be a Master's rule, too? Another might be to restrict the value of the bike to under $7500 or something... David
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Mike Murray

USAC has had this rule come and go in various versions over many years now,
including rules that mandated gears that could not really even be done with
modern gear systems without use of a machine shop. I could almost see
applicability for track or other fixed gear racing but for road racing the
idea is just plan dumb. To my knowledge no one has brought this idea before
OBRA and I hope it stays that way.

Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of David Auker
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 23:21 PM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Juniors-If you race out of state read this

Ah, sorry, I was wrong when I said:
> Anyway, shouldn't the following say:
>
> "If the crank arms complete more than a full revolution in this
> distance, the bike fails." ??
>
> instead of:
>
>> The bike is rolled backwards straight towards the other mark until
>> the crank arms have completed a full revolution. If the crank arms do not
complete a full revolution in this distance, the bike fails.
>>
:-[

I think it's good (and interesting) OBRA doesn't have the gear
restrictions. Has there ever been a push for this? Has USA Cycling had
this all along? I remember it a long time ago, but this seems to be
worded as a "new" rule.?

David

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Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Chris Harnish, M.S.

John, I have no idea what you're talking about. How am I making one
group less competitive? They are juniors racing against seniors, which
is the major disadvantage. Moreover, these kids need to compete against
kids racing in USAC sanctioned regions who are bound by these rules year
round. You disadvantage them by letting them swap. Moreover, I've seen
too many kids, screw themselves by failing roll-out because they either
forgot to put their gears on, or they put too big a gear on.

That being said, I have 15 years of Elite racing experience and more
than 10 years coaching experience that tell me that learning to utilize
the gears you have is better than trying to go bigger all the time. I
also have absolute and unequivocal evidence that it is NOT a
disadvantage in the form of race results by several juniors, including
one kid I still coach who raced successfully in 1-2 races and upgraded
to cat one in one of the best regions in the country. Moreover,
another former rider is a two-time World's Team member. I think it's
safe to say that they weren't disadvantaged.

Now, if you could please rephrase your response and try not to take it
personally when people post useful information. Also, I thought OBRA
was a discussion group and that we were 'discussing' this, which is why
I've copied my response to the group. So please attack me in the forum,
because I was just offering my advice based on years of experience. No
one said you had to follow it.

Best Wishes,

Chris Harnish, M.S., HFI
Exercise Physiologist & Coach
ESP Training Systems
"Unlocking the secrets to your success!"
www.espanswers.com
Ph 508.965.3863
Fx 508.457.1712

John Eric Lutz wrote:
> Where is the evidence for your assertion that "it helps teaching kids
> how to spin a gear and utilize leg speed over force;"
>
> Without documented evidence you have no grounds to make one group,
> juniors, less competitive over the rest of the field.
>
> John
>
> --No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.441 / Virus Database: 268.17.37/682 - Release Date:
> 2/12/2007 1:23 PM
>
>

Chris Harnish, M.S.

David's comments are not uncommon, but are also unfounded. While I do
not really buy much of the rationale for junior gearing, I do support
its inclusion in the rules because it helps teaching kids how to spin a
gear and utilize leg speed over force; why we cannot use functional
development for a rationale one can only guess. However, the idea that
these kids will be disadvantaged is simply false, because I've seen
firsthand from juniors I coached that gearing never affected their
performance. In fact, one rider from my 2004 junior team routinely
bested much larger and 'powerful' riders using only a 45X12 - *FYI,
45X12 will provide a maximum gear at or barely under the UCI limit of
7.9 m. *Moreover, I did not let any of my riders switch back and forth
between junior and senior gears during the season because they were
racing several National and International races. That being said, none
of them had trouble picking up results in Senior races and all of my
riders moved up at least one category and one even moved up to a cat 1
racing 1-2 races in New England. The bottom line is that if kids aren't
placing in Senior events it isn't their gearing, but their development.

Best Wishes,

Chris Harnish, M.S., HFI
Exercise Physiologist & Coach
ESP Training Systems
"Unlocking the secrets to your success!"
www.espanswers.com
Ph 508.965.3863
Fx 508.457.1712

> Interesting rule...I guess I can see the benefits, but it seems pretty
> harsh making an 18 year old racing in Cat 3 to be handicapped. (I can
> attest to what happens being under-geared: in a CA road race my chain
> was not working on the small cog...I was already cutting it a bit close,
> so this gave me something like 94" or less. In an extended high-speed
> (big gear) section, having to pedal way faster than everyone else did me
> in (that means dropped, Roger!).)
>
> Anyway, shouldn't the following say:
>
> "If the crank arms complete more than a full revolution in this distance, the bike fails." ??
>
> instead of:
>
>> The bike is rolled backwards straight towards the other mark until the crank arms have completed a full revolution. If the crank arms do not complete a full revolution in this distance, the bike fails.
>>
>>
>
> I don't know...what do you think....are we lucky in OBRA land to not
> have this, or should this be a rule? (In the OBRA Rules, I do a "find
> word" for restriction and limit, but don't see that we levy this on our
> Juniors) Maybe this should be a Master's rule, too? Another might be
> to restrict the value of the bike to under $7500 or something...
>
> David
>

David Auker

Ah, sorry, I was wrong when I said:
> Anyway, shouldn't the following say:
>
> "If the crank arms complete more than a full revolution in this distance, the bike fails." ??
>
> instead of:
>
>> The bike is rolled backwards straight towards the other mark until the crank arms have completed a full revolution. If the crank arms do not complete a full revolution in this distance, the bike fails.
>>
:-[

I think it's good (and interesting) OBRA doesn't have the gear
restrictions. Has there ever been a push for this? Has USA Cycling had
this all along? I remember it a long time ago, but this seems to be
worded as a "new" rule.?

David

Candi Murray

Just remember that this rule applies to out of state races. OBRA does not
have any jr gear restrictions.
C

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of David Auker
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 8:27 PM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Juniors-If you race out of state read this

Interesting rule...I guess I can see the benefits, but it seems pretty
harsh making an 18 year old racing in Cat 3 to be handicapped. (I can
attest to what happens being under-geared: in a CA road race my chain
was not working on the small cog...I was already cutting it a bit close,
so this gave me something like 94" or less. In an extended high-speed
(big gear) section, having to pedal way faster than everyone else did me
in (that means dropped, Roger!).)

Anyway, shouldn't the following say:

"If the crank arms complete more than a full revolution in this distance,
the bike fails." ??

instead of:
> The bike is rolled backwards straight towards the other mark until the
crank arms have completed a full revolution. If the crank arms do not
complete a full revolution in this distance, the bike fails.
>

I don't know...what do you think....are we lucky in OBRA land to not
have this, or should this be a rule? (In the OBRA Rules, I do a "find
word" for restriction and limit, but don't see that we levy this on our
Juniors) Maybe this should be a Master's rule, too? Another might be
to restrict the value of the bike to under $7500 or something...

David

Candi Murray wrote:
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dot .Comm [mailto:timeboard@hotmail.com]
> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 10:17 AM
> To: nwcycling@topica.com
> Subject: NWCYCLING: New Rule Change 2007
> Importance: High
>
>
> There is a new rule change for 2007 that affects ALL riders who are in the

> Junior age bracket, whether they are racing in Junior races or not (e.g.,
an
>
> 18 year old racing in the Cat 3 race). The rule change, along with an
> explanation of how this will be handled by the officials, and the reason
> behind the rule is given below. Please read this in entirety, and inform
any
>
> riders you know who fall into this age bracket of the change. You can
expect
>
> this at every race in the country.
>
> Regards,
> Dot Abbott
>
> ********************RULE CHANGE*****************
> 1J6. Junior Gears. The maximum chaingear ratio for Junior riders is based
on
>
> age and discipline. Blocked gears will be allowed, except in National
> Championships. All tests for compliance (road and track) shall be done
using
>
> the "roll-out method." There is no restriction for cyclo-cross. For road
and
>
> track the limits are:
> Road
> 17-18: 7.93 meters (26')(52x14)
> 15-16: "
> 13-14: "
> 10-12: "
> Track
> 17-18: Unrestricted
> 15-16: 6.78 meters (22'3")(48x15)
> 13-14: 6.36 meters (20'10.5")(48x16)
> 10-12: 6.00 meters (19'8")(48x17)
>
> ***********THE IMPORTANT PART TO NOTE****************
> The gear limit for a rider is determined by the age of the rider and the
> discipline, AND APPLIES IN ALL EVENTS IN THAT DISCIPLINE - EVEN WHEN OTHER

> ENTRANTS MAY NOT HAVE THE SAME (OR ANY) LIMIT.
>
> Note that the gear ratios listed are merely suggestions - the distance
> rolled out is the governing standard.
>
> ***********THE REASON FOR THE RULE********************
> No, it has nothing to do with "protecting the rider's knees". The gear
> restrictions are meant to assist in "leveling the playing field" when you
> have the massive differences in growth and development. This rule has been

> inserted as an executive decision because USA Cycling is concerned that
our
> Juniors that reach the upper ranks don't know how to spin. It becomes
> difficult for them to identify the Juniors who can compete against their
> peers at the National and International level using the given gear
> restrictions. They want all the Juniors, no matter which category they are

> riding against, to be competing on these restricted gears so they know how

> to race on them no matter what the level of competition.
>
> ***********HOW THIS REGULATION WILL BE ENFORCED **************
> All races (other than Master races) will be required to have rollout for
18
> and under, regardless of the category. In general, rollout will be
somewhere
>
> near the finish line, but a "courtesy rollout area" may be available
> elsewhere.
>
> Rollout will not be required before every race, but all 18 and under
riders
> will be REQUIRED to go through the rollout IMMEDIATELY after the race.
This
> means BEFORE going back to the car or leaving the finish line area.
Leaving
> the area is equal to a FAIL.
>
> Exceptions: There are NONE. What this means is that the Junior aged riders

> will need to address this in one of two ways:
> 1) Use the correct gear ratio. The riders will need to provide their own
set
>
> of wheels to the Neutral support, and become responsible to ensure the
wheel
>
> they get meets the gearing requirement.
> 2) Block out the higher gear cogs that would cause them to fail rollout.
> Blocking gears would make it less of a risk in case of needing a wheel
> change.
>
> Consequences: The penality for failing rollout is disqualification. No
> placing, no prize money, no WSBA BAR points.
>
> How rollout is done:
> Two marks are put on the ground 26 feet apart.
> The bike is put in its highest gear and placed with the crank arms over
the
> first mark in a vertical position. Tires must be fully inflated.
> The bike is rolled backwards straight towards the other mark until the
crank
>
> arms have completed a full revolution.
> If the crank arms do not complete a full revolution in this distance, the
> bike fails.
>
>
>

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

David Auker

Interesting rule...I guess I can see the benefits, but it seems pretty
harsh making an 18 year old racing in Cat 3 to be handicapped. (I can
attest to what happens being under-geared: in a CA road race my chain
was not working on the small cog...I was already cutting it a bit close,
so this gave me something like 94" or less. In an extended high-speed
(big gear) section, having to pedal way faster than everyone else did me
in (that means dropped, Roger!).)

Anyway, shouldn't the following say:

"If the crank arms complete more than a full revolution in this distance, the bike fails." ??

instead of:
> The bike is rolled backwards straight towards the other mark until the crank arms have completed a full revolution. If the crank arms do not complete a full revolution in this distance, the bike fails.
>

I don't know...what do you think....are we lucky in OBRA land to not
have this, or should this be a rule? (In the OBRA Rules, I do a "find
word" for restriction and limit, but don't see that we levy this on our
Juniors) Maybe this should be a Master's rule, too? Another might be
to restrict the value of the bike to under $7500 or something...

David

Candi Murray wrote:
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dot .Comm [mailto:timeboard@hotmail.com]
> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 10:17 AM
> To: nwcycling@topica.com
> Subject: NWCYCLING: New Rule Change 2007
> Importance: High
>
>
> There is a new rule change for 2007 that affects ALL riders who are in the
> Junior age bracket, whether they are racing in Junior races or not (e.g., an
>
> 18 year old racing in the Cat 3 race). The rule change, along with an
> explanation of how this will be handled by the officials, and the reason
> behind the rule is given below. Please read this in entirety, and inform any
>
> riders you know who fall into this age bracket of the change. You can expect
>
> this at every race in the country.
>
> Regards,
> Dot Abbott
>
> ********************RULE CHANGE*****************
> 1J6. Junior Gears. The maximum chaingear ratio for Junior riders is based on
>
> age and discipline. Blocked gears will be allowed, except in National
> Championships. All tests for compliance (road and track) shall be done using
>
> the "roll-out method." There is no restriction for cyclo-cross. For road and
>
> track the limits are:
> Road
> 17-18: 7.93 meters (26')(52x14)
> 15-16: "
> 13-14: "
> 10-12: "
> Track
> 17-18: Unrestricted
> 15-16: 6.78 meters (22'3")(48x15)
> 13-14: 6.36 meters (20'10.5")(48x16)
> 10-12: 6.00 meters (19'8")(48x17)
>
> ***********THE IMPORTANT PART TO NOTE****************
> The gear limit for a rider is determined by the age of the rider and the
> discipline, AND APPLIES IN ALL EVENTS IN THAT DISCIPLINE - EVEN WHEN OTHER
> ENTRANTS MAY NOT HAVE THE SAME (OR ANY) LIMIT.
>
> Note that the gear ratios listed are merely suggestions - the distance
> rolled out is the governing standard.
>
> ***********THE REASON FOR THE RULE********************
> No, it has nothing to do with "protecting the rider's knees". The gear
> restrictions are meant to assist in "leveling the playing field" when you
> have the massive differences in growth and development. This rule has been
> inserted as an executive decision because USA Cycling is concerned that our
> Juniors that reach the upper ranks don't know how to spin. It becomes
> difficult for them to identify the Juniors who can compete against their
> peers at the National and International level using the given gear
> restrictions. They want all the Juniors, no matter which category they are
> riding against, to be competing on these restricted gears so they know how
> to race on them no matter what the level of competition.
>
> ***********HOW THIS REGULATION WILL BE ENFORCED **************
> All races (other than Master races) will be required to have rollout for 18
> and under, regardless of the category. In general, rollout will be somewhere
>
> near the finish line, but a "courtesy rollout area" may be available
> elsewhere.
>
> Rollout will not be required before every race, but all 18 and under riders
> will be REQUIRED to go through the rollout IMMEDIATELY after the race. This
> means BEFORE going back to the car or leaving the finish line area. Leaving
> the area is equal to a FAIL.
>
> Exceptions: There are NONE. What this means is that the Junior aged riders
> will need to address this in one of two ways:
> 1) Use the correct gear ratio. The riders will need to provide their own set
>
> of wheels to the Neutral support, and become responsible to ensure the wheel
>
> they get meets the gearing requirement.
> 2) Block out the higher gear cogs that would cause them to fail rollout.
> Blocking gears would make it less of a risk in case of needing a wheel
> change.
>
> Consequences: The penality for failing rollout is disqualification. No
> placing, no prize money, no WSBA BAR points.
>
> How rollout is done:
> Two marks are put on the ground 26 feet apart.
> The bike is put in its highest gear and placed with the crank arms over the
> first mark in a vertical position. Tires must be fully inflated.
> The bike is rolled backwards straight towards the other mark until the crank
>
> arms have completed a full revolution.
> If the crank arms do not complete a full revolution in this distance, the
> bike fails.
>
>
>

Candi Murray

-----Original Message-----
From: Dot .Comm [mailto:timeboard@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 10:17 AM
To: nwcycling@topica.com
Subject: NWCYCLING: New Rule Change 2007
Importance: High

There is a new rule change for 2007 that affects ALL riders who are in the
Junior age bracket, whether they are racing in Junior races or not (e.g., an

18 year old racing in the Cat 3 race). The rule change, along with an
explanation of how this will be handled by the officials, and the reason
behind the rule is given below. Please read this in entirety, and inform any

riders you know who fall into this age bracket of the change. You can expect

this at every race in the country.

Regards,
Dot Abbott

********************RULE CHANGE*****************
1J6. Junior Gears. The maximum chaingear ratio for Junior riders is based on

age and discipline. Blocked gears will be allowed, except in National
Championships. All tests for compliance (road and track) shall be done using

the "roll-out method." There is no restriction for cyclo-cross. For road and

track the limits are:
Road
17-18: 7.93 meters (26')(52x14)
15-16: "
13-14: "
10-12: "
Track
17-18: Unrestricted
15-16: 6.78 meters (22'3")(48x15)
13-14: 6.36 meters (20'10.5")(48x16)
10-12: 6.00 meters (19'8")(48x17)

***********THE IMPORTANT PART TO NOTE****************
The gear limit for a rider is determined by the age of the rider and the
discipline, AND APPLIES IN ALL EVENTS IN THAT DISCIPLINE - EVEN WHEN OTHER
ENTRANTS MAY NOT HAVE THE SAME (OR ANY) LIMIT.

Note that the gear ratios listed are merely suggestions - the distance
rolled out is the governing standard.

***********THE REASON FOR THE RULE********************
No, it has nothing to do with "protecting the rider's knees". The gear
restrictions are meant to assist in "leveling the playing field" when you
have the massive differences in growth and development. This rule has been
inserted as an executive decision because USA Cycling is concerned that our
Juniors that reach the upper ranks don't know how to spin. It becomes
difficult for them to identify the Juniors who can compete against their
peers at the National and International level using the given gear
restrictions. They want all the Juniors, no matter which category they are
riding against, to be competing on these restricted gears so they know how
to race on them no matter what the level of competition.

***********HOW THIS REGULATION WILL BE ENFORCED **************
All races (other than Master races) will be required to have rollout for 18
and under, regardless of the category. In general, rollout will be somewhere

near the finish line, but a "courtesy rollout area" may be available
elsewhere.

Rollout will not be required before every race, but all 18 and under riders
will be REQUIRED to go through the rollout IMMEDIATELY after the race. This
means BEFORE going back to the car or leaving the finish line area. Leaving
the area is equal to a FAIL.

Exceptions: There are NONE. What this means is that the Junior aged riders
will need to address this in one of two ways:
1) Use the correct gear ratio. The riders will need to provide their own set

of wheels to the Neutral support, and become responsible to ensure the wheel

they get meets the gearing requirement.
2) Block out the higher gear cogs that would cause them to fail rollout.
Blocking gears would make it less of a risk in case of needing a wheel
change.

Consequences: The penality for failing rollout is disqualification. No
placing, no prize money, no WSBA BAR points.

How rollout is done:
Two marks are put on the ground 26 feet apart.
The bike is put in its highest gear and placed with the crank arms over the
first mark in a vertical position. Tires must be fully inflated.
The bike is rolled backwards straight towards the other mark until the crank

arms have completed a full revolution.
If the crank arms do not complete a full revolution in this distance, the
bike fails.

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