Jerald M Powell

OK boys and girls... "Blocking" isn't illegal. However, plugging up
the road, or trying to is just simply a fools errand. Going through
the pace line and pulling off without working is more effective and
finally, more effective for the riders who do want to chase (or who
want to stay away). It slows down the effort. The reason that the
tactic Mike describes is a "novice tactic" is because it's only
effective because the typical cat 4;cat 5 rider hasn't yet gained the
pack riding skill to ride between the folks who think they're
"blocking" when in reality all they're doing is expending negative
energy and guaranteeing that no one will give them a break or let
them suck a wheel when they need to. So the next question was, is
negative racing bad pack etiquette? Uh, well, yes it is, but more to
the point, it's dumb racing. By slowing down the pack, the
"blockers" are guaranteeing that someone, probably lot of someones
will attack. Guess who then loses control of the race? Not the
attacker(s), of that you can be sure. The next thing is that the
rider who understands that he or she can go through the middle of
such a block pretty easily can attack with a pretty good chance of
getting a good gap before they can adjust their heads to chase. It's
just good race tactics to break the block.

Di you say that _three_ riders stopped up the whole road? What was
this, a single track? These folks weren't even handle bar to
handlebar. Go out to Delta Park. Ride your race without attacking
or working up on the "outside" of the pack. Make it a project to
spot riders riding abreast and ride between them. Go from the back
of the pack to the front through the middle... and do it until you
can do it comfortably.

And one other thing... if you're on a team, get a coach who
understands riding tactics so that you can learn this stuff safely.
If you're a coach, use your group training rides to teach pack skills
and discipline.

Enough

Jerry

Jerald M Powell, AICP
Community Planning
1926 SW Madison St
Portland, OR 97205

503 222 7173
503 799 7823 (cellular)

jpowell@spiritone.com

Jerry Powell
USAC Level 1 Coach
1926 SW Madison St
Portland, OR 97205

503 222 7173
503 799 7823

jpowell@spiritone.com

On Apr 3, 2007, at 3:13 PM, mszwaya@comcast.net wrote:

> Would someone help explain the tactic and legality of blocking?
>
> In a not-so-hypothetical situation, a set of riders moved up to the
> front of the pack with about 4-5 miles to go in a race and parked
> there until the last 300 meters. The pack was basically held
> locked in, riding 3 abreast, with no movement in the top 25 (that I
> could see). There was a little shake up with about 300-400m to go
> but by then, the top 5-10 positions were all but set.
>
> Another racer in my office explained that this is illegal and that
> if they were asked to 'pull through' and refused to do so, they
> could be subject to DQ. I looked in the '07 rules and didn't see
> anything under Section 15.8 that would refer to this.
>
> I need to add a few caveats.
> 1. I was about 5 or 6 rows back waiting to move up when this
> happened. I am not absolutely sure that one team was the cause of
> this. However, the 4 riders from this team moved up to the front
> immediately before all pack movement stopped and all placed in the
> top 9.
> 2. I also don't know if anyone in the front asked them to move
> through. There was some significant grumbling and yelling from the
> back of the pack but it's unlikely it was heard all the way up
> front. A couple people were still pretty riled up about it after
> the race.
> 3. I am absolutely aware that it is about 2+ days too late to
> protest. This is NOT a protest. There is also no need to name
> teams or riders because what is done is done, intentional or not.
> If newer riders are going to learn the rules, both written and
> common courtesy, I'd like to learn this stuff and move on.
>
> What I'd like to know is:
> Is this officially legal/illegal? Is it just poor racing manners?
> If it isn't ok, what are our responsibilities during and after the
> race if we were blocked?
>
> -Mike "is it PIR season yet?' Szwaya
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

tokarev1@ix.netcom.com

Omer:

I think that is just what French guys do. :)

-K

-----Original Message-----
>From: Omer Kem
>Sent: Apr 3, 2007 8:11 PM
>To: obra@list.obra.org
>Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Blocking 101
>
>I was at a race in february and there was a french guy yelling at me in a break about not pulling hard enough. Whether it was intentional or not, would that be considered blocking??
>
>Omer Kem
>
>www.omerkem.blogspot.com
>
>_______________________________________________
>OBRA mailing list
>obra@list.obra.org
>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Quenton Conant

I was just asking because I'm afraid that somewhere the subtlety was blurred
for me.

At that point I was pretty far back, which is my own fault, but it didn't
look like there was room for anyone to get past. I don't know if it was an
organized thing, but i doubt it;however, I'm sure the 10 or so people up
there realized it and took full advantage. I cannot say that I would not
have either...
Honestly it doesn't matter now, I just wasn't clear on what the difference
was. I'm not trying to be an a-hole, but I want to know for future
reference. That's why I'm a 5, because I'm new to all of this, and need to
learn these things! I'm chalking this up to a good experience, I learned
alot, and next time maybe it'll be a different story :)
Q

On 4/3/07, Thom Schoenborn wrote:
>
> It seems that road held more than three or even four abreast. Q and I
> talked about this after the race, and while I sympathize, I think
> it's a racer's responsibility to put pressure on that team by forcing
> a hole and weaseling your way in.
>
> "Weaseling out of things is what separates us from the animals!
> Except the weasel."
> - Philosopher and Poet Homer J. Simpson
>
> I'm not saying Cat 5 road racing should be full-face helmets and
> downhill armor, but close-quarter riding is sometimes called for, am
> I wrong?
>
> TS
>
> On Apr 3, 2007, at 10:55 PM, Brian L wrote:
>
> > By "actively" blocking, I believe Sal means moving off your line to
> > cut off
> > advancing riders. If you are sitting there holding your line next
> > to other
> > riders and there is no room to pass, that is legal. When that type of
> > blocking is done intentionally then I would agree it is "negative"
> > racing.
> > And, speaking solely for myself, I would be embarrassed to be part
> > of it.
> >
> > -Brian L.
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-
> > bounces@list.obra.org] On
> > Behalf Of Quenton Conant
> > Sent: Martes, 03 de Abril de 2007 10:38 p.m.
> > To: obra@list.obra.org
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Blocking 101
> >
> >
> > Sal said:
> > "It is not legal to actively block riders from passing you, but it
> > is legal
> > to maintain your position and ride at your own pace.
> >
> > -sal"
> >
> > I'm not sure what the difference is. In the 5's there where 3-4 riders
> > abreast 2-3 deep just sitting there. slow as snails, no riders off the
> > front. so, when is it considered maintaining your position and when
> > is it
> > considered activley blocking from passing you? Because it seems
> > like that is
> > what happened in the 5's. I could be wrong. maybe the difference is
> > lost on
> > me.
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

--
" There is nothing but atoms and space,
everything else is only an opinion"
- Democritus from Abdera

Matthew Rider

I'm also with Ty on this one.
I have seen Portland Velo very effectively slow down the pace while in a
paceline and I'm not complaining about that. Though if you race with me
you'll hear me complain plenty as I try to get the pace back up.
Portland Velo has a lot of strong guys that are willing to put themselves in
the wind to work for the team and I give them credit for that. I did see
some people getting upset with them for what I thought was appropriate, fair
and legal blocking, but that isn't what I referred to in my original email.
During the POC I even helped diffuse a situation that arose because someone
was so angry about the blocking.

If I think I see inappropriate blocking again I'll make sure to get numbers
so I can (constructively) talk to whomever is doing it (as I would (and
should) have done previously if chasing wasn't using every breath I had plus
some). I only brought it up in this forum to verify my view of racing
etiquette and rules.

Ty, your guys will have to keep waiting to get a complaint about dragging me
around the course in their draft. But if they go fast enough they might just
be able to get a little whimper out of me.

Rider

On 4/3/07, Curt Dewees wrote:
>
> I'm with Ty & Portland Velo on this one. If you don't want to get
> "blocked," you need to do whatever it takes to stay at or very near
> the front. Races are won at the front of the peloton, not at the back.
> If the paceline leaders are pedaling too slowly for your taste, attack
> and go off the front.
>
> Road races are a lot different than PIR circuit races. At PIR, you
> have the luxury of staying protected back in the pack for most of the
> race, knowing that you always have a smooth, flat, 50-foot-wide
> opportunity to spin up to the front whenever you feel like it. In a
> road race, you mostly likely won't have a lot of opportunities to move
> up.
>
>
> On 4/3/07, Ty Lambert wrote:
> >
> > Howdy folks,
> >
> > Matt is referring to Portland Velo. My name is Ty Lambert and I guess
> you
> > can call me the D.S. of Portland Velo. I'm calling this out so people
> don't
> > have to continually guess who Matt is always (not) referring to. If we
> have
> > a guy in a break and we are not allowing anyone through that would be
> > considered poor form. From everything I have been told that is not the
> > case. If we deliberately slow down the pace while in a paceline, that's
> > fair game. It's not our job to chase down our own guys.
> >
> > By the way, I never hear you complaining when you are getting a free
> ride
> > from our guys.
> >
> > Ty Lambert
> > Portland Velo
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Matthew Rider
> > To: obra@list.obra.org
> > Cc: mszwaya@comcast.net
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 4:18 PM
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Blocking 101
> >
> > I would disagree that it's difficult for a team or small group of riders
> to
> > physically block the road as I've seen it happen in the Cat 4 field at
> two
> > of the Banana Belt races and again at the POC this weekend. While it
> always
> > appeared to be possible for one person to get by (though this last
> Sunday
> > getting space required yelling at the people doing the blocking and
> riding
> > at the VERY edge of the pavement) I would consider the road blocked when
> > there is a concerted effort to stop all but one lane of traffic from
> moving
> > forward.
> >
> > I will admit the tactic is very effective. At the Banana Belt there
> wasn't
> > an opportunity to get more then a few chasers by the blockers until the
> > descents allowed the blockers to swarm past the chasers and force the
> > chasers to squeeze by one by one again. At the POC the tactic forced a
> split
> > in the field until people could start squeezing by to chase.
> >
> > I spoke with the team captain/founder after the last Banana Belt race
> about
> > this tactic (he's not a Cat 4) and either he didn't pass the info on to
> the
> > team or he and they don't see it as a problem as it was the same team
> doing
> > this in Woodland this weekend.
> >
> > I did a search through the rules yesterday and while I didn't find the
> > scenario mentioned (nor did I expect to) I did find this:
> > "11.2 - ...forms of misconduct include, but are not limited to:
> > - Unsportsmanlike conduct..."
> >
> > I consider an attempt at blocking the road to stop those behind from
> racing
> > as constituting unsportsmanlike conduct. What I consider legitimate
> > blocking:
> > -Avoiding pulling through in a paceline
> > -Setting a slower then ideal tempo when in a paceline or when at the
> front
> > of the field
> > -Removing oneself from a paceline so others have to close gaps
> > -Allowing a gap to open so others have to pass and close the gap
> >
> > Any thoughts from officials and those more experienced?
> >
> >
> > Rider
> >
> >
> > On 4/3/07, KO Kevin wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > It is difficult for a team or small group or riders to physically
> block
> > the entire road. If other riders want to get through, they will find a
> way.
> > What you are describing sounds less like blocking and more like the
> riders
> > in the "sweet spot" of the peleton not wanting to pull through and give
> up
> > their position. If enough riders in the front have this "Do no work
> with 5
> > miles to go" mentality, the pack can slow to a crawl.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Team blocking usually occurs when a teammate is off the front solo or
> with
> > a small group, and the rest of the team does everything they can
> (without
> > riding dangerously) to disrupt all attempts to chase them down. This is
> > perfectly legal and handsomely rewarded when it works!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Kevin Ko
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> >
> > >
> > > From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto: obra-bounces@list.obra.org]
> On
> > Behalf Of mszwaya@comcast.net
> > > Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 3:13 PM
> > > To: obra@list.obra.org
> > > Subject: [OBRA Chat] Blocking 101
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Would someone help explain the tactic and legality of blocking?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > In a not-so-hypothetical situation, a set of riders moved up to the
> front
> > of the pack with about 4-5 miles to go in a race and parked there until
> the
> > last 300 meters. The pack was basically held locked in, riding 3
> abreast,
> > with no movement in the top 25 (that I could see). There was a little
> shake
> > up with about 300-400m to go but by then, the top 5-10 positions were
> all
> > but set.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Another racer in my office explained that this is illegal and that if
> they
> > were asked to 'pull through' and refused to do so, they could be subject
> to
> > DQ. I looked in the '07 rules and didn't see anything under Section
> 15.8
> > that would refer to this.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I need to add a few caveats.
> > > 1. I was about 5 or 6 rows back waiting to move up when this
> happened. I
> > am not absolutely sure that one team was the cause of this. However,
> the 4
> > riders from this team moved up to the front immediately before all pack
> > movement stopped and all placed in the top 9.
> > > 2. I also don't know if anyone in the front asked them to move
> through.
> > There was some significant grumbling and yelling from the back of the
> pack
> > but it's unlikely it was heard all the way up front. A couple people
> were
> > still pretty riled up about it after the race.
> > > 3. I am absolutely aware that it is about 2+ days too late to protest.
> > This is NOT a protest. There is also no need to name teams or riders
> > because what is done is done, intentional or not. If newer riders are
> going
> > to learn the rules, both written and common courtesy, I'd like to learn
> this
> > stuff and move on.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > What I'd like to know is:
> > > Is this officially legal/illegal? Is it just poor racing manners?
> > > If it isn't ok, what are our responsibilities during and after the
> race if
> > we were blocked?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -Mike "is it PIR season yet?' Szwaya
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > OBRA mailing list
> > > obra@list.obra.org
> > > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

Thom Schoenborn

It seems that road held more than three or even four abreast. Q and I
talked about this after the race, and while I sympathize, I think
it's a racer's responsibility to put pressure on that team by forcing
a hole and weaseling your way in.

"Weaseling out of things is what separates us from the animals!
Except the weasel."
- Philosopher and Poet Homer J. Simpson

I'm not saying Cat 5 road racing should be full-face helmets and
downhill armor, but close-quarter riding is sometimes called for, am
I wrong?

TS

On Apr 3, 2007, at 10:55 PM, Brian L wrote:

> By "actively" blocking, I believe Sal means moving off your line to
> cut off
> advancing riders. If you are sitting there holding your line next
> to other
> riders and there is no room to pass, that is legal. When that type of
> blocking is done intentionally then I would agree it is "negative"
> racing.
> And, speaking solely for myself, I would be embarrassed to be part
> of it.
>
> -Brian L.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-
> bounces@list.obra.org] On
> Behalf Of Quenton Conant
> Sent: Martes, 03 de Abril de 2007 10:38 p.m.
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Blocking 101
>
>
> Sal said:
> "It is not legal to actively block riders from passing you, but it
> is legal
> to maintain your position and ride at your own pace.
>
> -sal"
>
> I'm not sure what the difference is. In the 5's there where 3-4 riders
> abreast 2-3 deep just sitting there. slow as snails, no riders off the
> front. so, when is it considered maintaining your position and when
> is it
> considered activley blocking from passing you? Because it seems
> like that is
> what happened in the 5's. I could be wrong. maybe the difference is
> lost on
> me.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Brian L

By "actively" blocking, I believe Sal means moving off your line to cut off
advancing riders. If you are sitting there holding your line next to other
riders and there is no room to pass, that is legal. When that type of
blocking is done intentionally then I would agree it is "negative" racing.
And, speaking solely for myself, I would be embarrassed to be part of it.

-Brian L.

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Quenton Conant
Sent: Martes, 03 de Abril de 2007 10:38 p.m.
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Blocking 101

Sal said:
"It is not legal to actively block riders from passing you, but it is legal
to maintain your position and ride at your own pace.

-sal"

I'm not sure what the difference is. In the 5's there where 3-4 riders
abreast 2-3 deep just sitting there. slow as snails, no riders off the
front. so, when is it considered maintaining your position and when is it
considered activley blocking from passing you? Because it seems like that is
what happened in the 5's. I could be wrong. maybe the difference is lost on
me.
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Quenton Conant

Sal said:
"It is not legal to actively block riders from passing you, but it is legal to maintain your position and ride at your own pace.

-sal"

I'm not sure what the difference is. In the 5's there where 3-4 riders abreast 2-3 deep just sitting there. slow as snails, no riders off the front. so, when is it considered maintaining your position and when is it considered activley blocking from passing you? Because it seems like that is what happened in the 5's. I could be wrong. maybe the difference is lost on me.

comotionclassic@comcast.net

It is not legal to actively block riders from passing you, but it is legal to maintain your position and ride at your own pace.

-sal

Candi Murray

It is not illegal. Whoever told you that is wrong.

Candi

_____

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Edward Kendrick Sr
Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 8:12 PM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Blocking 101

Blocking can work beautifully, if it is done well. I can count my wins on
one hand, and my first was about 25 yrs ago, due to blocking.

This tactic has been dumbed down quite a bit, because it is sort of
mean-spirited.

In particular, I was in a solo break with two teammates blocking for me in
the pack. They deserve more credit than me.

mszwaya@comcast.net wrote:

Would someone help explain the tactic and legality of blocking?

In a not-so-hypothetical situation, a set of riders moved up to the front of
the pack with about 4-5 miles to go in a race and parked there until the
last 300 meters. The pack was basically held locked in, riding 3 abreast,
with no movement in the top 25 (that I could see). There was a little shake
up with about 300-400m to go but by then, the top 5-10 positions were all
but set.

Another racer in my office explained that this is illegal and that if they
were asked to 'pull through' and refused to do so, they could be subject to
DQ. I looked in the '07 rules and didn't see anything under Section 15.8
that would refer to this.

I need to add a few caveats.
1. I was about 5 or 6 rows back waiting to move up when this happened. I am
not absolutely sure that one team was the cause of this. However, the 4
riders from this team moved up to the front immediately before all pack
movement stopped and all placed in the top 9.
2. I also don't know if anyone in the front asked them to move through.
There was some significant grumbling and yelling from the back of the pack
but it's unlikely it was heard all the way up front. A couple people were
still pretty riled up about it after the race.
3. I am absolutely aware that it is about 2+ days too late to protest. This
is NOT a protest. There is also no need to name teams or riders because
what is done is done, intentional or not. If newer riders are going to
learn the rules, both written and common courtesy, I'd like to learn this
stuff and move on.

What I'd like to know is:
Is this officially legal/illegal? Is it just poor racing manners?
If it isn't ok, what are our responsibilities during and after the race if
we were blocked?

-Mike "is it PIR season yet?' Szwaya

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_____

Get
your own web address.
Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.

Curt Dewees

I'm with Ty & Portland Velo on this one. If you don't want to get
"blocked," you need to do whatever it takes to stay at or very near
the front. Races are won at the front of the peloton, not at the back.
If the paceline leaders are pedaling too slowly for your taste, attack
and go off the front.

Road races are a lot different than PIR circuit races. At PIR, you
have the luxury of staying protected back in the pack for most of the
race, knowing that you always have a smooth, flat, 50-foot-wide
opportunity to spin up to the front whenever you feel like it. In a
road race, you mostly likely won't have a lot of opportunities to move
up.

On 4/3/07, Ty Lambert wrote:
>
> Howdy folks,
>
> Matt is referring to Portland Velo. My name is Ty Lambert and I guess you
> can call me the D.S. of Portland Velo. I'm calling this out so people don't
> have to continually guess who Matt is always (not) referring to. If we have
> a guy in a break and we are not allowing anyone through that would be
> considered poor form. From everything I have been told that is not the
> case. If we deliberately slow down the pace while in a paceline, that's
> fair game. It's not our job to chase down our own guys.
>
> By the way, I never hear you complaining when you are getting a free ride
> from our guys.
>
> Ty Lambert
> Portland Velo
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Matthew Rider
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Cc: mszwaya@comcast.net
> Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 4:18 PM
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Blocking 101
>
> I would disagree that it's difficult for a team or small group of riders to
> physically block the road as I've seen it happen in the Cat 4 field at two
> of the Banana Belt races and again at the POC this weekend. While it always
> appeared to be possible for one person to get by (though this last Sunday
> getting space required yelling at the people doing the blocking and riding
> at the VERY edge of the pavement) I would consider the road blocked when
> there is a concerted effort to stop all but one lane of traffic from moving
> forward.
>
> I will admit the tactic is very effective. At the Banana Belt there wasn't
> an opportunity to get more then a few chasers by the blockers until the
> descents allowed the blockers to swarm past the chasers and force the
> chasers to squeeze by one by one again. At the POC the tactic forced a split
> in the field until people could start squeezing by to chase.
>
> I spoke with the team captain/founder after the last Banana Belt race about
> this tactic (he's not a Cat 4) and either he didn't pass the info on to the
> team or he and they don't see it as a problem as it was the same team doing
> this in Woodland this weekend.
>
> I did a search through the rules yesterday and while I didn't find the
> scenario mentioned (nor did I expect to) I did find this:
> "11.2 - ...forms of misconduct include, but are not limited to:
> - Unsportsmanlike conduct..."
>
> I consider an attempt at blocking the road to stop those behind from racing
> as constituting unsportsmanlike conduct. What I consider legitimate
> blocking:
> -Avoiding pulling through in a paceline
> -Setting a slower then ideal tempo when in a paceline or when at the front
> of the field
> -Removing oneself from a paceline so others have to close gaps
> -Allowing a gap to open so others have to pass and close the gap
>
> Any thoughts from officials and those more experienced?
>
>
> Rider
>
>
> On 4/3/07, KO Kevin wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > It is difficult for a team or small group or riders to physically block
> the entire road. If other riders want to get through, they will find a way.
> What you are describing sounds less like blocking and more like the riders
> in the "sweet spot" of the peleton not wanting to pull through and give up
> their position. If enough riders in the front have this "Do no work with 5
> miles to go" mentality, the pack can slow to a crawl.
> >
> >
> >
> > Team blocking usually occurs when a teammate is off the front solo or with
> a small group, and the rest of the team does everything they can (without
> riding dangerously) to disrupt all attempts to chase them down. This is
> perfectly legal and handsomely rewarded when it works!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Kevin Ko
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
>
> >
> > From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto: obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
> Behalf Of mszwaya@comcast.net
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 3:13 PM
> > To: obra@list.obra.org
> > Subject: [OBRA Chat] Blocking 101
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Would someone help explain the tactic and legality of blocking?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > In a not-so-hypothetical situation, a set of riders moved up to the front
> of the pack with about 4-5 miles to go in a race and parked there until the
> last 300 meters. The pack was basically held locked in, riding 3 abreast,
> with no movement in the top 25 (that I could see). There was a little shake
> up with about 300-400m to go but by then, the top 5-10 positions were all
> but set.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Another racer in my office explained that this is illegal and that if they
> were asked to 'pull through' and refused to do so, they could be subject to
> DQ. I looked in the '07 rules and didn't see anything under Section 15.8
> that would refer to this.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I need to add a few caveats.
> > 1. I was about 5 or 6 rows back waiting to move up when this happened. I
> am not absolutely sure that one team was the cause of this. However, the 4
> riders from this team moved up to the front immediately before all pack
> movement stopped and all placed in the top 9.
> > 2. I also don't know if anyone in the front asked them to move through.
> There was some significant grumbling and yelling from the back of the pack
> but it's unlikely it was heard all the way up front. A couple people were
> still pretty riled up about it after the race.
> > 3. I am absolutely aware that it is about 2+ days too late to protest.
> This is NOT a protest. There is also no need to name teams or riders
> because what is done is done, intentional or not. If newer riders are going
> to learn the rules, both written and common courtesy, I'd like to learn this
> stuff and move on.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > What I'd like to know is:
> > Is this officially legal/illegal? Is it just poor racing manners?
> > If it isn't ok, what are our responsibilities during and after the race if
> we were blocked?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -Mike "is it PIR season yet?' Szwaya
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

Dan H

Who the heck races in February!? No wonder he was grumpy.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Omer Kem"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 8:11 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Blocking 101

>I was at a race in february and there was a french guy yelling at me in a
>break about not pulling hard enough. Whether it was intentional or not,
>would that be considered blocking??
>
> Omer Kem
>
> www.omerkem.blogspot.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

Ty Lambert

Howdy folks,

Matt is referring to Portland Velo. My name is Ty Lambert and I guess you can call me the D.S. of Portland Velo. I'm calling this out so people don't have to continually guess who Matt is always (not) referring to. If we have a guy in a break and we are not allowing anyone through that would be considered poor form. From everything I have been told that is not the case. If we deliberately slow down the pace while in a paceline, that's fair game. It's not our job to chase down our own guys.

By the way, I never hear you complaining when you are getting a free ride from our guys.

Ty Lambert
Portland Velo

From: Matthew Rider
To: obra@list.obra.org
Cc: mszwaya@comcast.net
Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 4:18 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Blocking 101

I would disagree that it's difficult for a team or small group of riders to physically block the road as I've seen it happen in the Cat 4 field at two of the Banana Belt races and again at the POC this weekend. While it always appeared to be possible for one person to get by (though this last Sunday getting space required yelling at the people doing the blocking and riding at the VERY edge of the pavement) I would consider the road blocked when there is a concerted effort to stop all but one lane of traffic from moving forward.

I will admit the tactic is very effective. At the Banana Belt there wasn't an opportunity to get more then a few chasers by the blockers until the descents allowed the blockers to swarm past the chasers and force the chasers to squeeze by one by one again. At the POC the tactic forced a split in the field until people could start squeezing by to chase.

I spoke with the team captain/founder after the last Banana Belt race about this tactic (he's not a Cat 4) and either he didn't pass the info on to the team or he and they don't see it as a problem as it was the same team doing this in Woodland this weekend.

I did a search through the rules yesterday and while I didn't find the scenario mentioned (nor did I expect to) I did find this:
"11.2 - ...forms of misconduct include, but are not limited to:
- Unsportsmanlike conduct..."

I consider an attempt at blocking the road to stop those behind from racing as constituting unsportsmanlike conduct. What I consider legitimate blocking:
-Avoiding pulling through in a paceline
-Setting a slower then ideal tempo when in a paceline or when at the front of the field
-Removing oneself from a paceline so others have to close gaps
-Allowing a gap to open so others have to pass and close the gap

Any thoughts from officials and those more experienced?

Rider

On 4/3/07, KO Kevin wrote:
It is difficult for a team or small group or riders to physically block the entire road. If other riders want to get through, they will find a way. What you are describing sounds less like blocking and more like the riders in the "sweet spot" of the peleton not wanting to pull through and give up their position. If enough riders in the front have this "Do no work with 5 miles to go" mentality, the pack can slow to a crawl.

Team blocking usually occurs when a teammate is off the front solo or with a small group, and the rest of the team does everything they can (without riding dangerously) to disrupt all attempts to chase them down. This is perfectly legal and handsomely rewarded when it works!

Kevin Ko

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto: obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of mszwaya@comcast.net
Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 3:13 PM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Blocking 101

Would someone help explain the tactic and legality of blocking?

In a not-so-hypothetical situation, a set of riders moved up to the front of the pack with about 4-5 miles to go in a race and parked there until the last 300 meters. The pack was basically held locked in, riding 3 abreast, with no movement in the top 25 (that I could see). There was a little shake up with about 300-400m to go but by then, the top 5-10 positions were all but set.

Another racer in my office explained that this is illegal and that if they were asked to 'pull through' and refused to do so, they could be subject to DQ. I looked in the '07 rules and didn't see anything under Section 15.8 that would refer to this.

I need to add a few caveats.
1. I was about 5 or 6 rows back waiting to move up when this happened. I am not absolutely sure that one team was the cause of this. However, the 4 riders from this team moved up to the front immediately before all pack movement stopped and all placed in the top 9.
2. I also don't know if anyone in the front asked them to move through. There was some significant grumbling and yelling from the back of the pack but it's unlikely it was heard all the way up front. A couple people were still pretty riled up about it after the race.
3. I am absolutely aware that it is about 2+ days too late to protest. This is NOT a protest. There is also no need to name teams or riders because what is done is done, intentional or not. If newer riders are going to learn the rules, both written and common courtesy, I'd like to learn this stuff and move on.

What I'd like to know is:
Is this officially legal/illegal? Is it just poor racing manners?
If it isn't ok, what are our responsibilities during and after the race if we were blocked?

-Mike "is it PIR season yet?' Szwaya

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Edward Kendrick Sr

Blocking can work beautifully, if it is done well. I can count my wins on one hand, and my first was about 25 yrs ago, due to blocking.

This tactic has been dumbed down quite a bit, because it is sort of mean-spirited.

In particular, I was in a solo break with two teammates blocking for me in the pack. They deserve more credit than me.

mszwaya@comcast.net wrote:
Would someone help explain the tactic and legality of blocking?

In a not-so-hypothetical situation, a set of riders moved up to the front of the pack with about 4-5 miles to go in a race and parked there until the last 300 meters. The pack was basically held locked in, riding 3 abreast, with no movement in the top 25 (that I could see). There was a little shake up with about 300-400m to go but by then, the top 5-10 positions were all but set.

Another racer in my office explained that this is illegal and that if they were asked to 'pull through' and refused to do so, they could be subject to DQ. I looked in the '07 rules and didn't see anything under Section 15.8 that would refer to this.

I need to add a few caveats.
1. I was about 5 or 6 rows back waiting to move up when this happened. I am not absolutely sure that one team was the cause of this. However, the 4 riders from this team moved up to the front immediately before all pack movement stopped and all placed in the top 9.
2. I also don't know if anyone in the front asked them to move through. There was some significant grumbling and yelling from the back of the pack but it's unlikely it was heard all the way up front. A couple people were still pretty riled up about it after the race.
3. I am absolutely aware that it is about 2+ days too late to protest. This is NOT a protest. There is also no need to name teams or riders because what is done is done, intentional or not. If newer riders are going to learn the rules, both written and common courtesy, I'd like to learn this stuff and move on.

What I'd like to know is:
Is this officially legal/illegal? Is it just poor racing manners?
If it isn't ok, what are our responsibilities during and after the race if we were blocked?

-Mike "is it PIR season yet?' Szwaya

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

---------------------------------
Get your own web address.
Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.

Omer Kem

I was at a race in february and there was a french guy yelling at me in a break about not pulling hard enough. Whether it was intentional or not, would that be considered blocking??

Omer Kem

www.omerkem.blogspot.com

George de Randich

Well I, starting to learn a bit! At least blocking isn't :
intentionally; crunching the other contestants!. I still remember seeing a
bit of the "Giro d'Italia" as a child in '53!! I hope to cheer some of you
when you go from Olympia to Portland!
Respectfully yours,
George de Randich
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

----- Original Message -----
From: "Suz Weldon"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 5:28 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Blocking 101

> Blocking the road is definitely NOT cool. This is mostly a cat-4
> tactic. The method mentioned in the previous email (below) can be
> used, but if your chase group companions are even a little bit smart,
> they will not let you do this- because any smart person who has a
> teammate up the road in a break will not work in the chase group
> (unless it is the wrong teammate!)
>
> Caveat: If your teammate is up the road with more than half the pack,
> that is not a "break"- rather, YOU are in a break- a break off the back.
>
> The "honorable" thing to do is sit on, but not physically disrupt the
> chase. Anyone who knows jack about team work and tactics, should
> understand why you are doing it- cuz that's racing. Then again, if
> they are stupid enough to let you get away with soft-pedaling when you
> pull through, maybe they deserve what they get...
>
> Thank god, we seem to be done with bashing the women for not bringing
> wheels...
>
> Quoting "Long, Steve" :
>
>> In my humble opinnion, the honerable way to frustrate a chase is by
>> getting in the pace line and when it's your turn to pull, slow the chase
>> down just a hair. You have to be willing to work to do this and you'll
>> likely have to do it several times in succsession but it can be very
>> effective in frustrating a chase. If you have team mates that can help
>> you, you'll have to work a bit less to disrupt the chase.
>>
>> 2c worth
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
>> Behalf Of john
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 4:21 PM
>> To: obra@list.obra.org
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Blocking 101
>>
>>
>> I think the blocking was discussed a lot last year in the OBRA list.. I
>> don't have time to find the link. But it was definitely labeled as
>> negative racing... But like Kevin i would not call what was described
>> as "blocking" but getting a good position for the finish...
>>
>> My thoughts on blocking are OK some is ok, some disruption to get a
>> break off, but then keep it up too long and some of the mayhem and
>> disruption gets old, possibly dangerous , and you should probably just
>> let people race.
>>
>> I do agree with Kevin. Most road races in the midwest are narrow flat
>> roads too. I would start working for the front at least 10 miles
>> before the finish, and then work like crazy to stay there packed in like
>> sardines... (In hindsight i should have attacked a lot more and just got
>> stronger ! but that was a long time ago, and i was a good sprinter...)
>> Most races i have been in here in Oregon are fairly easy to move up in.
>> Unfortunately i flatted so was not there at the end (if this was the 4
>> race?)
>>
>> But typically things open up on the corners and you can try to get to
>> the front at those locations. There were two great move-up corners
>> within 3 miles from the finish.
>>
>> Un-like PIR, 'real' road race and crit sprints are only won from the
>> front ! Pack sprints and knowing where to be, leading out, etc is
>> totally different at PIR then most normal races.
>>
>>
>> KO Kevin wrote:
>>
>> It is difficult for a team or small group or riders to
>> physically block the entire road. If other riders want to get through,
>> they will find a way. What you are describing sounds less like blocking
>> and more like the riders in the "sweet spot" of the peleton not wanting
>> to pull through and give up their position. If enough riders in the
>> front have this "Do no work with 5 miles to go" mentality, the pack can
>> slow to a crawl.
>>
>> Team blocking usually occurs when a teammate is off the front
>> solo or with a small group, and the rest of the team does everything
>> they can (without riding dangerously) to disrupt all attempts to chase
>> them down. This is perfectly legal and handsomely rewarded when it
>> works!
>>
>> Kevin Ko
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
>> [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of mszwaya@comcast.net
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 3:13 PM
>> To: obra@list.obra.org
>> Subject: [OBRA Chat] Blocking 101
>>
>> Would someone help explain the tactic and legality of blocking?
>>
>> In a not-so-hypothetical situation, a set of riders moved up to
>> the front of the pack with about 4-5 miles to go in a race and parked
>> there until the last 300 meters. The pack was basically held locked in,
>> riding 3 abreast, with no movement in the top 25 (that I could see).
>> There was a little shake up with about 300-400m to go but by then, the
>> top 5-10 positions were all but set.
>>
>> Another racer in my office explained that this is illegal and
>> that if they were asked to 'pull through' and refused to do so, they
>> could be subject to DQ. I looked in the '07 rules and didn't see
>> anything under Section 15.8 that would refer to this.
>>
>> I need to add a few caveats.
>> 1. I was about 5 or 6 rows back waiting to move up when this
>> happened. I am not absolutely sure that one team was the cause of this.
>> However, the 4 riders from this team moved up to the front immediately
>> before all pack movement stopped and all placed in the top 9.
>> 2. I also don't know if anyone in the front asked them to move
>> through. There was some significant grumbling and yelling from the back
>> of the pack but it's unlikely it was heard all the way up front. A
>> couple people were still pretty riled up about it after the race.
>> 3. I am absolutely aware that it is about 2+ days too late to
>> protest. This is NOT a protest. There is also no need to name teams or
>> riders because what is done is done, intentional or not. If newer
>> riders are going to learn the rules, both written and common courtesy,
>> I'd like to learn this stuff and move on.
>>
>> What I'd like to know is:
>> Is this officially legal/illegal? Is it just poor racing
>> manners?
>> If it isn't ok, what are our responsibilities during and after
>> the race if we were blocked?
>>
>> -Mike "is it PIR season yet?' Szwaya
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> john m schmidt
>> portland oregon
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

Suz Weldon

Blocking the road is definitely NOT cool. This is mostly a cat-4
tactic. The method mentioned in the previous email (below) can be
used, but if your chase group companions are even a little bit smart,
they will not let you do this- because any smart person who has a
teammate up the road in a break will not work in the chase group
(unless it is the wrong teammate!)

Caveat: If your teammate is up the road with more than half the pack,
that is not a "break"- rather, YOU are in a break- a break off the back.

The "honorable" thing to do is sit on, but not physically disrupt the
chase. Anyone who knows jack about team work and tactics, should
understand why you are doing it- cuz that's racing. Then again, if
they are stupid enough to let you get away with soft-pedaling when you
pull through, maybe they deserve what they get...

Thank god, we seem to be done with bashing the women for not bringing
wheels...

Quoting "Long, Steve" :

> In my humble opinnion, the honerable way to frustrate a chase is by
> getting in the pace line and when it's your turn to pull, slow the chase
> down just a hair. You have to be willing to work to do this and you'll
> likely have to do it several times in succsession but it can be very
> effective in frustrating a chase. If you have team mates that can help
> you, you'll have to work a bit less to disrupt the chase.
>
> 2c worth
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
> Behalf Of john
> Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 4:21 PM
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Blocking 101
>
>
> I think the blocking was discussed a lot last year in the OBRA list.. I
> don't have time to find the link. But it was definitely labeled as
> negative racing... But like Kevin i would not call what was described
> as "blocking" but getting a good position for the finish...
>
> My thoughts on blocking are OK some is ok, some disruption to get a
> break off, but then keep it up too long and some of the mayhem and
> disruption gets old, possibly dangerous , and you should probably just
> let people race.
>
> I do agree with Kevin. Most road races in the midwest are narrow flat
> roads too. I would start working for the front at least 10 miles
> before the finish, and then work like crazy to stay there packed in like
> sardines... (In hindsight i should have attacked a lot more and just got
> stronger ! but that was a long time ago, and i was a good sprinter...)
> Most races i have been in here in Oregon are fairly easy to move up in.
> Unfortunately i flatted so was not there at the end (if this was the 4
> race?)
>
> But typically things open up on the corners and you can try to get to
> the front at those locations. There were two great move-up corners
> within 3 miles from the finish.
>
> Un-like PIR, 'real' road race and crit sprints are only won from the
> front ! Pack sprints and knowing where to be, leading out, etc is
> totally different at PIR then most normal races.
>
>
> KO Kevin wrote:
>
> It is difficult for a team or small group or riders to
> physically block the entire road. If other riders want to get through,
> they will find a way. What you are describing sounds less like blocking
> and more like the riders in the "sweet spot" of the peleton not wanting
> to pull through and give up their position. If enough riders in the
> front have this "Do no work with 5 miles to go" mentality, the pack can
> slow to a crawl.
>
> Team blocking usually occurs when a teammate is off the front
> solo or with a small group, and the rest of the team does everything
> they can (without riding dangerously) to disrupt all attempts to chase
> them down. This is perfectly legal and handsomely rewarded when it
> works!
>
> Kevin Ko
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of mszwaya@comcast.net
> Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 3:13 PM
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: [OBRA Chat] Blocking 101
>
> Would someone help explain the tactic and legality of blocking?
>
> In a not-so-hypothetical situation, a set of riders moved up to
> the front of the pack with about 4-5 miles to go in a race and parked
> there until the last 300 meters. The pack was basically held locked in,
> riding 3 abreast, with no movement in the top 25 (that I could see).
> There was a little shake up with about 300-400m to go but by then, the
> top 5-10 positions were all but set.
>
> Another racer in my office explained that this is illegal and
> that if they were asked to 'pull through' and refused to do so, they
> could be subject to DQ. I looked in the '07 rules and didn't see
> anything under Section 15.8 that would refer to this.
>
> I need to add a few caveats.
> 1. I was about 5 or 6 rows back waiting to move up when this
> happened. I am not absolutely sure that one team was the cause of this.
> However, the 4 riders from this team moved up to the front immediately
> before all pack movement stopped and all placed in the top 9.
> 2. I also don't know if anyone in the front asked them to move
> through. There was some significant grumbling and yelling from the back
> of the pack but it's unlikely it was heard all the way up front. A
> couple people were still pretty riled up about it after the race.
> 3. I am absolutely aware that it is about 2+ days too late to
> protest. This is NOT a protest. There is also no need to name teams or
> riders because what is done is done, intentional or not. If newer
> riders are going to learn the rules, both written and common courtesy,
> I'd like to learn this stuff and move on.
>
> What I'd like to know is:
> Is this officially legal/illegal? Is it just poor racing
> manners?
> If it isn't ok, what are our responsibilities during and after
> the race if we were blocked?
>
> -Mike "is it PIR season yet?' Szwaya
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
>
>
> john m schmidt
> portland oregon
>

Charles Mann

What happened here is Blocking The Road not traditional blocking to assist your teammate on a break away. When four or five people from the same team physically Block The Road to prevent anyone from getting by (yellow line rule) this is clearly Unsportsman-like conduct especially when they have established a pattern. I agree with the previous entry...

What I consider legitimate blocking:
-Avoiding pulling through in a paceline
-Setting a slower then ideal tempo when in a paceline or when at the front of the field
-Removing oneself from a paceline so others have to close gaps
-Allowing a gap to open so others have to pass and close the gap

Otherwise they're creating a dangerous situation.

CM

---------------------------------
Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check.
Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta.

Long, Steve

In my humble opinnion, the honerable way to frustrate a chase is by
getting in the pace line and when it's your turn to pull, slow the chase
down just a hair. You have to be willing to work to do this and you'll
likely have to do it several times in succsession but it can be very
effective in frustrating a chase. If you have team mates that can help
you, you'll have to work a bit less to disrupt the chase.

2c worth

________________________________

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of john
Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 4:21 PM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Blocking 101

I think the blocking was discussed a lot last year in the OBRA list.. I
don't have time to find the link. But it was definitely labeled as
negative racing... But like Kevin i would not call what was described
as "blocking" but getting a good position for the finish...

My thoughts on blocking are OK some is ok, some disruption to get a
break off, but then keep it up too long and some of the mayhem and
disruption gets old, possibly dangerous , and you should probably just
let people race.

I do agree with Kevin. Most road races in the midwest are narrow flat
roads too. I would start working for the front at least 10 miles
before the finish, and then work like crazy to stay there packed in like
sardines... (In hindsight i should have attacked a lot more and just got
stronger ! but that was a long time ago, and i was a good sprinter...)
Most races i have been in here in Oregon are fairly easy to move up in.
Unfortunately i flatted so was not there at the end (if this was the 4
race?)

But typically things open up on the corners and you can try to get to
the front at those locations. There were two great move-up corners
within 3 miles from the finish.

Un-like PIR, 'real' road race and crit sprints are only won from the
front ! Pack sprints and knowing where to be, leading out, etc is
totally different at PIR then most normal races.

KO Kevin wrote:

It is difficult for a team or small group or riders to
physically block the entire road. If other riders want to get through,
they will find a way. What you are describing sounds less like blocking
and more like the riders in the "sweet spot" of the peleton not wanting
to pull through and give up their position. If enough riders in the
front have this "Do no work with 5 miles to go" mentality, the pack can
slow to a crawl.

Team blocking usually occurs when a teammate is off the front
solo or with a small group, and the rest of the team does everything
they can (without riding dangerously) to disrupt all attempts to chase
them down. This is perfectly legal and handsomely rewarded when it
works!

Kevin Ko


________________________________

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
[mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of mszwaya@comcast.net
Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 3:13 PM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Blocking 101

Would someone help explain the tactic and legality of blocking?

In a not-so-hypothetical situation, a set of riders moved up to
the front of the pack with about 4-5 miles to go in a race and parked
there until the last 300 meters. The pack was basically held locked in,
riding 3 abreast, with no movement in the top 25 (that I could see).
There was a little shake up with about 300-400m to go but by then, the
top 5-10 positions were all but set.

Another racer in my office explained that this is illegal and
that if they were asked to 'pull through' and refused to do so, they
could be subject to DQ. I looked in the '07 rules and didn't see
anything under Section 15.8 that would refer to this.

I need to add a few caveats.
1. I was about 5 or 6 rows back waiting to move up when this
happened. I am not absolutely sure that one team was the cause of this.
However, the 4 riders from this team moved up to the front immediately
before all pack movement stopped and all placed in the top 9.
2. I also don't know if anyone in the front asked them to move
through. There was some significant grumbling and yelling from the back
of the pack but it's unlikely it was heard all the way up front. A
couple people were still pretty riled up about it after the race.
3. I am absolutely aware that it is about 2+ days too late to
protest. This is NOT a protest. There is also no need to name teams or
riders because what is done is done, intentional or not. If newer
riders are going to learn the rules, both written and common courtesy,
I'd like to learn this stuff and move on.

What I'd like to know is:
Is this officially legal/illegal? Is it just poor racing
manners?
If it isn't ok, what are our responsibilities during and after
the race if we were blocked?

-Mike "is it PIR season yet?' Szwaya

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

john m schmidt
portland oregon

john

I think the blocking was discussed a lot last year in the OBRA list.. I don't have time to find the link. But it was definitely labeled as negative racing... But like Kevin i would not call what was described as "blocking" but getting a good position for the finish...

My thoughts on blocking are OK some is ok, some disruption to get a break off, but then keep it up too long and some of the mayhem and disruption gets old, possibly dangerous , and you should probably just let people race.

I do agree with Kevin. Most road races in the midwest are narrow flat roads too. I would start working for the front at least 10 miles before the finish, and then work like crazy to stay there packed in like sardines... (In hindsight i should have attacked a lot more and just got stronger ! but that was a long time ago, and i was a good sprinter...) Most races i have been in here in Oregon are fairly easy to move up in. Unfortunately i flatted so was not there at the end (if this was the 4 race?)

But typically things open up on the corners and you can try to get to the front at those locations. There were two great move-up corners within 3 miles from the finish.

Un-like PIR, 'real' road race and crit sprints are only won from the front ! Pack sprints and knowing where to be, leading out, etc is totally different at PIR then most normal races.

KO Kevin wrote:
v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } It is difficult for a team or small group or riders to physically block the entire road. If other riders want to get through, they will find a way. What you are describing sounds less like blocking and more like the riders in the ?sweet spot? of the peleton not wanting to pull through and give up their position. If enough riders in the front have this ?Do no work with 5 miles to go? mentality, the pack can slow to a crawl.

Team blocking usually occurs when a teammate is off the front solo or with a small group, and the rest of the team does everything they can (without riding dangerously) to disrupt all attempts to chase them down. This is perfectly legal and handsomely rewarded when it works!

Kevin Ko

---------------------------------

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of mszwaya@comcast.net
Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 3:13 PM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Blocking 101

Would someone help explain the tactic and legality of blocking?

In a not-so-hypothetical situation, a set of riders moved up to the front of the pack with about 4-5 miles to go in a race and parked there until the last 300 meters. The pack was basically held locked in, riding 3 abreast, with no movement in the top 25 (that I could see). There was a little shake up with about 300-400m to go but by then, the top 5-10 positions were all but set.

Another racer in my office explained that this is illegal and that if they were asked to 'pull through' and refused to do so, they could be subject to DQ. I looked in the '07 rules and didn't see anything under Section 15.8 that would refer to this.

I need to add a few caveats.
1. I was about 5 or 6 rows back waiting to move up when this happened. I am not absolutely sure that one team was the cause of this. However, the 4 riders from this team moved up to the front immediately before all pack movement stopped and all placed in the top 9.
2. I also don't know if anyone in the front asked them to move through. There was some significant grumbling and yelling from the back of the pack but it's unlikely it was heard all the way up front. A couple people were still pretty riled up about it after the race.
3. I am absolutely aware that it is about 2+ days too late to protest. This is NOT a protest. There is also no need to name teams or riders because what is done is done, intentional or not. If newer riders are going to learn the rules, both written and common courtesy, I'd like to learn this stuff and move on.

What I'd like to know is:
Is this officially legal/illegal? Is it just poor racing manners?
If it isn't ok, what are our responsibilities during and after the race if we were blocked?

-Mike "is it PIR season yet?' Szwaya

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

john m schmidt
portland oregon

Matthew Rider

I would disagree that it's difficult for a team or small group of riders to
physically block the road as I've seen it happen in the Cat 4 field at two
of the Banana Belt races and again at the POC this weekend. While it always
appeared to be possible for one person to get by (though this last Sunday
getting space required yelling at the people doing the blocking and riding
at the VERY edge of the pavement) I would consider the road blocked when
there is a concerted effort to stop all but one lane of traffic from moving
forward.

I will admit the tactic is very effective. At the Banana Belt there wasn't
an opportunity to get more then a few chasers by the blockers until the
descents allowed the blockers to swarm past the chasers and force the
chasers to squeeze by one by one again. At the POC the tactic forced a split
in the field until people could start squeezing by to chase.

I spoke with the team captain/founder after the last Banana Belt race about
this tactic (he's not a Cat 4) and either he didn't pass the info on to the
team or he and they don't see it as a problem as it was the same team doing
this in Woodland this weekend.

I did a search through the rules yesterday and while I didn't find the
scenario mentioned (nor did I expect to) I did find this:
"11.2 - ...forms of misconduct include, but are not limited to:
- Unsportsmanlike conduct..."

I consider an attempt at blocking the road to stop those behind from racing
as constituting unsportsmanlike conduct. What I consider legitimate
blocking:
-Avoiding pulling through in a paceline
-Setting a slower then ideal tempo when in a paceline or when at the front
of the field
-Removing oneself from a paceline so others have to close gaps
-Allowing a gap to open so others have to pass and close the gap

Any thoughts from officials and those more experienced?

Rider

On 4/3/07, KO Kevin wrote:
>
> It is difficult for a team or small group or riders to physically block
> the entire road. If other riders want to get through, they will find a way.
> What you are describing sounds less like blocking and more like the riders
> in the "sweet spot" of the peleton not wanting to pull through and give up
> their position. If enough riders in the front have this "Do no work with 5
> miles to go" mentality, the pack can slow to a crawl.
>
>
>
> Team blocking usually occurs when a teammate is off the front solo or with
> a small group, and the rest of the team does everything they can (without
> riding dangerously) to disrupt all attempts to chase them down. This is
> perfectly legal and handsomely rewarded when it works!
>
>
>
> Kevin Ko
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] *On
> Behalf Of *mszwaya@comcast.net
> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 03, 2007 3:13 PM
> *To:* obra@list.obra.org
> *Subject:* [OBRA Chat] Blocking 101
>
>
>
> Would someone help explain the tactic and legality of blocking?
>
>
>
> In a not-so-hypothetical situation, a set of riders moved up to the front
> of the pack with about 4-5 miles to go in a race and parked there until the
> last 300 meters. The pack was basically held locked in, riding 3 abreast,
> with no movement in the top 25 (that I could see). There was a little shake
> up with about 300-400m to go but by then, the top 5-10 positions were all
> but set.
>
>
>
> Another racer in my office explained that this is illegal and that if they
> were asked to 'pull through' and refused to do so, they could be subject to
> DQ. I looked in the '07 rules and didn't see anything under Section 15.8that would refer to this.
>
>
>
> I need to add a few caveats.
> 1. I was about 5 or 6 rows back waiting to move up when this happened. I
> am not absolutely sure that one team was the cause of this. However, the 4
> riders from this team moved up to the front immediately before all pack
> movement stopped and all placed in the top 9.
> 2. I also don't know if anyone in the front asked them to move through.
> There was some significant grumbling and yelling from the back of the pack
> but it's unlikely it was heard all the way up front. A couple people were
> still pretty riled up about it after the race.
> 3. I am absolutely aware that it is about 2+ days too late to protest.
> This is NOT a protest. There is also no need to name teams or riders
> because what is done is done, intentional or not. If newer riders are going
> to learn the rules, both written and common courtesy, I'd like to learn this
> stuff and move on.
>
>
>
> What I'd like to know is:
> Is this officially legal/illegal? Is it just poor racing manners?
> If it isn't ok, what are our responsibilities during and after the race if
> we were blocked?
>
>
>
> -Mike "is it PIR season yet?' Szwaya
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

KO Kevin

It is difficult for a team or small group or riders to physically block
the entire road. If other riders want to get through, they will find a
way. What you are describing sounds less like blocking and more like
the riders in the "sweet spot" of the peleton not wanting to pull
through and give up their position. If enough riders in the front have
this "Do no work with 5 miles to go" mentality, the pack can slow to a
crawl.

Team blocking usually occurs when a teammate is off the front solo or
with a small group, and the rest of the team does everything they can
(without riding dangerously) to disrupt all attempts to chase them down.
This is perfectly legal and handsomely rewarded when it works!

Kevin Ko

________________________________

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of mszwaya@comcast.net
Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 3:13 PM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Blocking 101

Would someone help explain the tactic and legality of blocking?

In a not-so-hypothetical situation, a set of riders moved up to the
front of the pack with about 4-5 miles to go in a race and parked there
until the last 300 meters. The pack was basically held locked in,
riding 3 abreast, with no movement in the top 25 (that I could see).
There was a little shake up with about 300-400m to go but by then, the
top 5-10 positions were all but set.

Another racer in my office explained that this is illegal and that if
they were asked to 'pull through' and refused to do so, they could be
subject to DQ. I looked in the '07 rules and didn't see anything under
Section 15.8 that would refer to this.

I need to add a few caveats.
1. I was about 5 or 6 rows back waiting to move up when this happened.
I am not absolutely sure that one team was the cause of this. However,
the 4 riders from this team moved up to the front immediately before all
pack movement stopped and all placed in the top 9.
2. I also don't know if anyone in the front asked them to move through.
There was some significant grumbling and yelling from the back of the
pack but it's unlikely it was heard all the way up front. A couple
people were still pretty riled up about it after the race.
3. I am absolutely aware that it is about 2+ days too late to protest.
This is NOT a protest. There is also no need to name teams or riders
because what is done is done, intentional or not. If newer riders are
going to learn the rules, both written and common courtesy, I'd like to
learn this stuff and move on.

What I'd like to know is:
Is this officially legal/illegal? Is it just poor racing manners?
If it isn't ok, what are our responsibilities during and after the race
if we were blocked?

-Mike "is it PIR season yet?' Szwaya

mszwaya@comcast.net

Would someone help explain the tactic and legality of blocking?

In a not-so-hypothetical situation, a set of riders moved up to the front of the pack with about 4-5 miles to go in a race and parked there until the last 300 meters. The pack was basically held locked in, riding 3 abreast, with no movement in the top 25 (that I could see). There was a little shake up with about 300-400m to go but by then, the top 5-10 positions were all but set.

Another racer in my office explained that this is illegal and that if they were asked to 'pull through' and refused to do so, they could be subject to DQ. I looked in the '07 rules and didn't see anything under Section 15.8 that would refer to this.

I need to add a few caveats.
1. I was about 5 or 6 rows back waiting to move up when this happened. I am not absolutely sure that one team was the cause of this. However, the 4 riders from this team moved up to the front immediately before all pack movement stopped and all placed in the top 9.
2. I also don't know if anyone in the front asked them to move through. There was some significant grumbling and yelling from the back of the pack but it's unlikely it was heard all the way up front. A couple people were still pretty riled up about it after the race.
3. I am absolutely aware that it is about 2+ days too late to protest. This is NOT a protest. There is also no need to name teams or riders because what is done is done, intentional or not. If newer riders are going to learn the rules, both written and common courtesy, I'd like to learn this stuff and move on.

What I'd like to know is:
Is this officially legal/illegal? Is it just poor racing manners?
If it isn't ok, what are our responsibilities during and after the race if we were blocked?

-Mike "is it PIR season yet?' Szwaya