Estacada tt craig list comment

Angela McCanna

2007-04-16

If we read through the ODOT "Guidelines for Administration of Bicycle Racing
on Oregon Roads" (http://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/HWY/BIKEPED/docs/bikerace.pdf
), Section IV, Part B, 1., c.: Time Trials, it reads, as follows:

B. Special Conditions
1. Time Trials
a. No field limits are necessary since cyclists will be

riding single file at timed intervals.
b. A road closure is generally not necessary.
c. Riders shall follow rules of the road unless special traffic
control is provided.

In the case of most TTs, "special traffic control" (typically flaggers
and/or corner marshals) is not provided along the course proper. Therefore,
"Riders shall follow rules of the road".
Now, fortunately, under the "rules of the road" for cyclists in the Oregon
Bicyclist Manual
(http://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/HWY/BIKEPED/docs/bike_manual_06.pdf ), from
pages 6 and 7, we as cyclists are told the following:
From Page 6:
"Other times when you shouldn't ride too far to the right
include:
. When a lane is too narrow for a bicycle and vehicle to travel
safely
side by side (see page 7);"

From Page 7:
"When You Should Take a Lane -
If there is no shoulder or bike lane, and the travel lane is narrow,

ride closer to the center of the lane."

Therefore, specifically for the Estacada TT, in my professional opinion, we
would be justified in riding closer to the middle of the lane.
The organizer should alert all racers to any contents in the road use
permit, however, of any conditions that might supersede these rules and
guidelines.

Just thought I should chime in. Thanks for the time. If you have any other
questions regarding cycling on Oregon State Highways, let me know. You may
also contact Sheila Lyons, ODOT Bicycle & Pedestrian Program Manager
(Sheila.A.LYONS@state.or.us ).

Scott M. McCanna, P.E.
ODOT State Traffic Control Plans Engineer
& Racing Cyclist (Go EWEB!)
Salem, Oregon USA
Scott.m.mccanna@odot.state.or.us
gonespinning@msn.com

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Tony McCray
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 9:19 AM
To: obra
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Estacada tt craig list comment

I just quickly looked at the OBRA rules regarding time trials, and it
doesn't look like there is a requirement that we stay to the right at
all times. Does our ODOT or other permit have any such requirement? I
had thought that since we have a special permit to use the road for a
race, we could use the entire lane.

-Tony

Candi Murray wrote:
> Who was riding a 60 lb bike?
> Why do riders insist on riding in the center of the road when there is
> traffic?
>
> Candi
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
> Behalf Of Galen Mittermann
> Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 9:08 AM
> To: OBRA Chat
> Subject: [OBRA Chat] oops
>
>
> thought i could forward with a comment. apparently not.
> is this guy advocating murder?
>
> __________________________________________________
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> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
>

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Dan H

2007-04-16

"I do not agree in any way with with the white pickup did."
pickups don't run people off the road, people do.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Geri Bossen"
To: ; ;
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 1:08 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Estacada tt craig list comment

> You are right it is not his back yard or his grass. My point is "they"
> feel
> it is their own back yard--"We pay taxes and bikes don't" It is often
> part
> of the mindset of those who live out in rural areas. Note the
> difficulties
> in Corbett OR between the locals and bikes. It is a whole different
> culture
> in rural areas. Many "city folks" do not realize this. I have lived in
> small town and in rural areas.
>
> I do not agree in any way with with the white pickup did. It was a poor
> attempt to repeat what the white pickup driver had said he did.
>
> I saw the rider and took down the info as soon as he returned to Promotory
> Park. We are doing everything possible to get justice.
>
> I did not see what happened but I have now heard more from the racer. He
> did not flip off the driver and he was riding to the right.
>
> But another racer may have been riding in the middle of the road and may
> have flipped off the white pickup. The main point I was making is BE NICE
> it goes much further than being rude. And it is often the next guy that
> pays for the previous guys rudeness.
>
> There is never an excuse to use a vehicle to enforce your point to a
> bicycle.
>
>
> Geri Bossen
>
>
>
>
>>From: "Jonathan C. Puskas"
>>To: Geri Bossen ,
>>mccray@easystreet.com,obra@list.obra.org
>>Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Estacada tt craig list comment
>>Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 10:18:52 -0700 (PDT)
>>
>>There's at least one major flaw in this statement...
>>
>>It is NOT their "back yard." It is not "his grass."
>>It's a public access roadway. It is not private. It
>>is paid for by tax dollars of which EVERY ONE OF US
>>contributes.
>>
>>It is preferable that we ALL act with civility. It is
>>preferable that we all learn to get along. However,
>>regardless of whether you "like" my mode of transport
>>or like me raising a digit, the moment you utilize a
>>large vehicle to intimidate or menace a
>>pedestrian/cyclist (or even another vehicle), it's
>>against the law.
>>
>>Let's not be apoligists here. A large group (raising
>>funds for CHILDREN'S activities) were RIDING BICYCLES
>>and for that an individual took offense and utilized a
>>vehicle to HARM another person.
>>
>>Would you be stating that the individual's behavior
>>was "understandable" if it had been one of the Junior
>>riders who was driven off the road by a vehicle?
>>
>>The utilization of vehicles as WEAPONS must be
>>stopped...I'll agree that this individual might be
>>IGNORANT (actually DUMB is a more accurate word), but
>>I believe they knew EXACTLY what they were doing when
>>they did it.
>>
>>R/
>>Jonathan C. Puskas
>>
>>--- Geri Bossen wrote:
>>
>> > We ALWAYS have to PLAY NICE with the locals. It
>> > is kind of like someone
>> > from several blocks away holding an event in your
>> > back yard and you getting
>> > upset when they trample your grass. Maybe your
>> > wife, not you, gave the
>> > permission to use your yard.
>> >
>> > ALWAYS ALWAYS WAVE FRIENDLY TO THE LOCAL.
>> > ALWAYS BE COURTEOUS TO THE LOCALS---SMILE
>> > THANK THEM FOR LETTING US USE THEIR BACK YARD.
>> >
>> > In spite of this incident there were no other
>> > complaints from the locals.
>> >
>> >
>> > That guy in the pick-up did not sign our race permit
>> > but his neighbor may
>> > have.
>> >
>> > We were denied a permit to hold our third TT because
>> > there was going to be
>> > another local event that would have increased the
>> > traffic.
>> >
>> > The guy in the pick-up may have had no idea that he
>> > actually ran the rider
>> > off the road. The guy in the pick-up says he wanted
>> > to stop and chat with
>> > the rider regarding the use of the road. Drivers
>> > are amazing ignorant of
>> > the effect of slowing or stopping a vehicle near a
>> > racing cyclist.
>> >
>> > Cyclists tend to be in the zone and not be as aware
>> > as necessary around
>> > vehicles. Flipping off a local is ALWAYS a mistake
>> > and backfires on
>> > someone-----not necessarily the guy who did it.
>> >
>> > Geri Bossen
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > >From: Tony McCray
>> > >To: obra
>> > >Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Estacada tt craig list
>> > comment
>> > >Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 09:18:50 -0700
>> > >
>> > >I just quickly looked at the OBRA rules regarding
>> > time trials, and it
>> > >doesn't look like there is a requirement that we
>> > stay to the right at
>> > >all times. Does our ODOT or other permit have any
>> > such requirement? I
>> > >had thought that since we have a special permit to
>> > use the road for a
>> > >race, we could use the entire lane.
>> > >
>> > >-Tony
>> > >
>> > >Candi Murray wrote:
>> > > > Who was riding a 60 lb bike?
>> > > > Why do riders insist on riding in the center of
>> > the road when there is
>> > > > traffic?
>> > > >
>> > > > Candi
>> > > >
>> > > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > > From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
>> > [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
>> > > > Behalf Of Galen Mittermann
>> > > > Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 9:08 AM
>> > > > To: OBRA Chat
>> > > > Subject: [OBRA Chat] oops
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > thought i could forward with a comment.
>> > apparently not.
>> > > > is this guy advocating murder?
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > __________________________________________________
>> > > > Do You Yahoo!?
>> > > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
>> > protection around
>> > > > http://mail.yahoo.com
>> > > > _______________________________________________
>> > > > OBRA mailing list
>> > > > obra@list.obra.org
>> > > > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> > > > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>> > > >
>> > > > _______________________________________________
>> > > > OBRA mailing list
>> > > > obra@list.obra.org
>> > > > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> > > > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > >_______________________________________________
>> > >OBRA mailing list
>> > >obra@list.obra.org
>> > >http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> > >Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>> >
>> >
>>_________________________________________________________________
>> > Mortgage refinance is Hot. *Terms. Get a 5.375%* fix
>> > rate. Check savings
>> >
>>https://www2.nextag.com/goto.jsp?product=100000035&url=%2fst.jsp&tm=y&search=mortgage_text_links_88_h2bbb&disc=y&vers=925&s=4056&p=5117
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > OBRA mailing list
>> > obra@list.obra.org
>> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>> >
>>
>>
>>Jonathan C. Puskas
>>159 Fifth Street
>>Lake Oswego, OR 97034
>>impuskas@yahoo.com
>>
>>"If you're gonna charge...charge hard!"
>>
>>__________________________________________________
>>Do You Yahoo!?
>>Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>>http://mail.yahoo.com
>>_______________________________________________
>>OBRA mailing list
>>obra@list.obra.org
>>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> The average US Credit Score is 675. The cost to see yours: $0 by Experian.
> http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=660600&bcd=EMAILFOOTERAVERAGE
>
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> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>


T. Kenji Sugahara

2007-04-16

A couple things to remember-

Most of the drivers were courteous. Many of them pulled out a decent
amount for me.

That said, there were 1 or 2 trucks who did drive quite close to me.
Paying attention to my surroundings, I was always sure to pull over
as much as possible when I heard a vehicle. It pays to always be
aware- whether racing or training.

It only takes one butt monkey to cause problems. We just have to
make sure that the individual is prosecuted with the felony hit and run.

k-


gschreckchat@comcast.net

2007-04-16

Maybe we all should carry our Oregon tax filings with us, so we can whip them out and demonstrate that we pay taxes, probably more than they do. ;-) In fact, we could have them subliminated on the backs of jerseys.

--

George Schreck
gschreckchat@comcast.net
(503) 502-0425

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Geri Bossen"

> You are right it is not his back yard or his grass. My point is "they" feel
> it is their own back yard--"We pay taxes and bikes don't" It is often part
> of the mindset of those who live out in rural areas. Note the difficulties
> in Corbett OR between the locals and bikes. It is a whole different culture
> in rural areas. Many "city folks" do not realize this. I have lived in
> small town and in rural areas.
>
> I do not agree in any way with with the white pickup did. It was a poor
> attempt to repeat what the white pickup driver had said he did.
>
> I saw the rider and took down the info as soon as he returned to Promotory
> Park. We are doing everything possible to get justice.
>
> I did not see what happened but I have now heard more from the racer. He
> did not flip off the driver and he was riding to the right.
>
> But another racer may have been riding in the middle of the road and may
> have flipped off the white pickup. The main point I was making is BE NICE
> it goes much further than being rude. And it is often the next guy that
> pays for the previous guys rudeness.
>
> There is never an excuse to use a vehicle to enforce your point to a
> bicycle.
>
>
> Geri Bossen
>
>
>
>
> >From: "Jonathan C. Puskas"
> >To: Geri Bossen ,
> >mccray@easystreet.com,obra@list.obra.org
> >Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Estacada tt craig list comment
> >Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 10:18:52 -0700 (PDT)
> >
> >There's at least one major flaw in this statement...
> >
> >It is NOT their "back yard." It is not "his grass."
> >It's a public access roadway. It is not private. It
> >is paid for by tax dollars of which EVERY ONE OF US
> >contributes.
> >
> >It is preferable that we ALL act with civility. It is
> >preferable that we all learn to get along. However,
> >regardless of whether you "like" my mode of transport
> >or like me raising a digit, the moment you utilize a
> >large vehicle to intimidate or menace a
> >pedestrian/cyclist (or even another vehicle), it's
> >against the law.
> >
> >Let's not be apoligists here. A large group (raising
> >funds for CHILDREN'S activities) were RIDING BICYCLES
> >and for that an individual took offense and utilized a
> >vehicle to HARM another person.
> >
> >Would you be stating that the individual's behavior
> >was "understandable" if it had been one of the Junior
> >riders who was driven off the road by a vehicle?
> >
> >The utilization of vehicles as WEAPONS must be
> >stopped...I'll agree that this individual might be
> >IGNORANT (actually DUMB is a more accurate word), but
> >I believe they knew EXACTLY what they were doing when
> >they did it.
> >
> >R/
> >Jonathan C. Puskas
> >
> >--- Geri Bossen wrote:
> >
> > > We ALWAYS have to PLAY NICE with the locals. It
> > > is kind of like someone
> > > from several blocks away holding an event in your
> > > back yard and you getting
> > > upset when they trample your grass. Maybe your
> > > wife, not you, gave the
> > > permission to use your yard.
> > >
> > > ALWAYS ALWAYS WAVE FRIENDLY TO THE LOCAL.
> > > ALWAYS BE COURTEOUS TO THE LOCALS---SMILE
> > > THANK THEM FOR LETTING US USE THEIR BACK YARD.
> > >
> > > In spite of this incident there were no other
> > > complaints from the locals.
> > >
> > >
> > > That guy in the pick-up did not sign our race permit
> > > but his neighbor may
> > > have.
> > >
> > > We were denied a permit to hold our third TT because
> > > there was going to be
> > > another local event that would have increased the
> > > traffic.
> > >
> > > The guy in the pick-up may have had no idea that he
> > > actually ran the rider
> > > off the road. The guy in the pick-up says he wanted
> > > to stop and chat with
> > > the rider regarding the use of the road. Drivers
> > > are amazing ignorant of
> > > the effect of slowing or stopping a vehicle near a
> > > racing cyclist.
> > >
> > > Cyclists tend to be in the zone and not be as aware
> > > as necessary around
> > > vehicles. Flipping off a local is ALWAYS a mistake
> > > and backfires on
> > > someone-----not necessarily the guy who did it.
> > >
> > > Geri Bossen
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >From: Tony McCray
> > > >To: obra
> > > >Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Estacada tt craig list
> > > comment
> > > >Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 09:18:50 -0700
> > > >
> > > >I just quickly looked at the OBRA rules regarding
> > > time trials, and it
> > > >doesn't look like there is a requirement that we
> > > stay to the right at
> > > >all times. Does our ODOT or other permit have any
> > > such requirement? I
> > > >had thought that since we have a special permit to
> > > use the road for a
> > > >race, we could use the entire lane.
> > > >
> > > >-Tony
> > > >
> > > >Candi Murray wrote:
> > > > > Who was riding a 60 lb bike?
> > > > > Why do riders insist on riding in the center of
> > > the road when there is
> > > > > traffic?
> > > > >
> > > > > Candi
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> > > [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
> > > > > Behalf Of Galen Mittermann
> > > > > Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 9:08 AM
> > > > > To: OBRA Chat
> > > > > Subject: [OBRA Chat] oops
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > thought i could forward with a comment.
> > > apparently not.
> > > > > is this guy advocating murder?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> > > protection around
> > > > > http://mail.yahoo.com
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > OBRA mailing list
> > > > > obra@list.obra.org
> > > > > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > > > > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > OBRA mailing list
> > > > > obra@list.obra.org
> > > > > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > > > > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >_______________________________________________
> > > >OBRA mailing list
> > > >obra@list.obra.org
> > > >http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > > >Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> > >
> > >
> >_________________________________________________________________
> > > Mortgage refinance is Hot. *Terms. Get a 5.375%* fix
> > > rate. Check savings
> > >
> >https://www2.nextag.com/goto.jsp?product=100000035&url=%2fst.jsp&tm=y&search=mo
> rtgage_text_links_88_h2bbb&disc=y&vers=925&s=4056&p=5117
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > OBRA mailing list
> > > obra@list.obra.org
> > > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> > >
> >
> >
> >Jonathan C. Puskas
> >159 Fifth Street
> >Lake Oswego, OR 97034
> >impuskas@yahoo.com
> >
> >"If you're gonna charge...charge hard!"
> >
> >__________________________________________________
> >Do You Yahoo!?
> >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> >http://mail.yahoo.com
> >_______________________________________________
> >OBRA mailing list
> >obra@list.obra.org
> >http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> >Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> The average US Credit Score is 675. The cost to see yours: $0 by Experian.
> http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=660600&bcd=EMAILFOOTERAVERAGE
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


andrew.holmes@farmersinsurance.com

2007-04-16

yeah I was involved in a close call at the beaver freezer as well when a
car ignored the volunteer with the big STOP sign....

here is a link to the story:

http://ironman2007or8.blogspot.com/2007/04/beaver-freezer-race-report.html

Drew Holmes


gschreckchat@comcast.net

2007-04-16

Actually, I rode to the outside of the cones because I thought the cones were to direct me away from coming to close to the officials or some other hazard. It was not clear to me that the cones were to direct me into the finish, as I have never seen cones creating a finishing chute a road TT.

As for riding in the center, there were number of places on the return where there were falling rocks that had torn up the road. At that point, my thought was to stay away from the side of the road at those points where rocks tend to fall, and I had to pick my way through the holes which often meant being in the middle of the lane at those places.

As for the shoulder, there was glass in the shoulder at some points, so it was best to stay just to the outside of the fog line for the parts of the course that did not have falling rocks.

--

George Schreck
gschreckchat@comcast.net
(503) 502-0425

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Dan H"

> I don't know about the 60# bike but I guess someone did the TT with a kid in
> a trailer.
> As for riding in the road center, there was a finishing lane clearly marked
> by traffic cones along the fog line leading to a white, painted finish line.
> More than half the people I watched finish totally blew the lane and rode on
> the road side of the cones.
> I listened to the rider who was allegedly run off the road give his report
> to Diane the State cop. He stated that he was "on the fog line" when the
> driver of the truck squeezed him off the road. Fortunately, he had no
> serious injuries other than some road (gravel) rash and finished the ride.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Candi Murray"
> To: "obra"
> Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 9:10 AM
> Subject: [OBRA Chat] Estacada tt craig list comment
>
>
> > Who was riding a 60 lb bike?
> > Why do riders insist on riding in the center of the road when there is
> > traffic?
> >
> > Candi
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
> > Behalf Of Galen Mittermann
> > Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 9:08 AM
> > To: OBRA Chat
> > Subject: [OBRA Chat] oops
> >
> >
> > thought i could forward with a comment. apparently not.
> > is this guy advocating murder?
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


gschreckchat@comcast.net

2007-04-16

This seems to be one of the safest TT courses around. Wide shoulder and road, with pleanty of room to pass, no intersections, good sight lines and generally good pavement. No course can prevent an incident with an idiot in a vehicle, and i think the Estacada TT couse presents fewer issue than most.

It always amazes me that there are so many drivers that feel that turning their steering wheel a bit to go around a rider is such an imposition on them. The fact is that there are angry people looking for something to outrage them, and conveniently someone on a bicycle shows up. If it were not the cyclist, it would be something else. No course can eliminate these people. On the other hand, we should not put up with them either.

--

George Schreck
gschreckchat@comcast.net
(503) 502-0425

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Doug Sears"

> Robin wrote:
> > So after the race I asked myself, with all due respect to the Bossens,
> > since he was probably going the speed limit or faster why are we doing a
> > TT in a 55 mph zone in a rural place with rural people where the road
> > conditions are far from ideal?
>
> Huh? Doesn't that describe exactly where every single TT in the state is
> held? Are you saying we should have TTs in the city, or that we shouldn't
> have TTs at all?
>
> --Doug Sears
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


Judy Richardson DMS01

2007-04-16

Yes, thank you- Jonathan - exactly right. I was wondering
when someone would point out that during a TT - or even
the KVRR Saturday, for those of us more novice racers -
we're just trying to do our best to hold our line and
press our own limits - riding a bit into the lane is
usually unintended, NOT a "discourtesy", say, like,
throwing around powerbar rappers and peeing into
somebody's hydrangeas.

I am fortunate to live and ride in a rural area with a
population generally understanding of cyclists, horses,
pedistrians etc. I truly don't understand the origin of
such abominable behavior on the part of a motorist - I
wonder, would he have passed and treated a tractor driver
the same way? As horrible and terrifying as must have been
to one of our adult racers, thank heavens it wasn't one of
our kids (recall at least 21 racers Sunday were between 10
and 18 years old...).

Judy Richardson, MD
Sorella Forte

---"Jonathan C. Puskas" wrote ---
There's at least one major flaw in this statement...

It is NOT their "back yard." It is not "his grass."
It's a public access roadway. It is not private. It
is paid for by tax dollars of which EVERY ONE OF US
contributes.

It is preferable that we ALL act with civility. It is
preferable that we all learn to get along. However,
regardless of whether you "like" my mode of transport
or like me raising a digit, the moment you utilize a
large vehicle to intimidate or menace a
pedestrian/cyclist (or even another vehicle), it's
against the law.

Let's not be apoligists here. A large group (raising
funds for CHILDREN'S activities) were RIDING BICYCLES
and for that an individual took offense and utilized a
vehicle to HARM another person.

Would you be stating that the individual's behavior
was "understandable" if it had been one of the Junior
riders who was driven off the road by a vehicle?

The utilization of vehicles as WEAPONS must be
stopped...I'll agree that this individual might be
IGNORANT (actually DUMB is a more accurate word), but
I believe they knew EXACTLY what they were doing when
they did it.

R/
Jonathan C. Puskas

--- Geri Bossen wrote:

> We ALWAYS have to PLAY NICE with the locals. It
> is kind of like someone
> from several blocks away holding an event in your
> back yard and you getting
> upset when they trample your grass. Maybe your
> wife, not you, gave the
> permission to use your yard.
>
> ALWAYS ALWAYS WAVE FRIENDLY TO THE LOCAL.
> ALWAYS BE COURTEOUS TO THE LOCALS---SMILE
> THANK THEM FOR LETTING US USE THEIR BACK YARD.
>
> In spite of this incident there were no other
> complaints from the locals.
>
>
> That guy in the pick-up did not sign our race permit
> but his neighbor may
> have.
>
> We were denied a permit to hold our third TT because
> there was going to be
> another local event that would have increased the
> traffic.
>
> The guy in the pick-up may have had no idea that he
> actually ran the rider
> off the road. The guy in the pick-up says he wanted
> to stop and chat with
> the rider regarding the use of the road. Drivers
> are amazing ignorant of
> the effect of slowing or stopping a vehicle near a
> racing cyclist.
>
> Cyclists tend to be in the zone and not be as aware
> as necessary around
> vehicles. Flipping off a local is ALWAYS a mistake
> and backfires on
> someone-----not necessarily the guy who did it.
>
> Geri Bossen
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: Tony McCray
> >To: obra
> >Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Estacada tt craig list
> comment
> >Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 09:18:50 -0700
> >
> >I just quickly looked at the OBRA rules regarding
> time trials, and it
> >doesn't look like there is a requirement that we
> stay to the right at
> >all times. Does our ODOT or other permit have any
> such requirement? I
> >had thought that since we have a special permit to
> use the road for a
> >race, we could use the entire lane.
> >
> >-Tony
> >
> >Candi Murray wrote:
> > > Who was riding a 60 lb bike?
> > > Why do riders insist on riding in the center of
> the road when there is
> > > traffic?
> > >
> > > Candi
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
> > > Behalf Of Galen Mittermann
> > > Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 9:08 AM
> > > To: OBRA Chat
> > > Subject: [OBRA Chat] oops
> > >
> > >
> > > thought i could forward with a comment.
> apparently not.
> > > is this guy advocating murder?
> > >
> > >
> __________________________________________________
> > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around
> > > http://mail.yahoo.com
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > OBRA mailing list
> > > obra@list.obra.org
> > > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > OBRA mailing list
> > > obra@list.obra.org
> > > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >OBRA mailing list
> >obra@list.obra.org
> >http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> >Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
___________________________________________________________
______
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Jonathan C. Puskas
159 Fifth Street
Lake Oswego, OR 97034
impuskas@yahoo.com

"If you're gonna charge...charge hard!"

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--- End of quote ---


Geri Bossen

2007-04-16

You are right it is not his back yard or his grass. My point is "they" feel
it is their own back yard--"We pay taxes and bikes don't" It is often part
of the mindset of those who live out in rural areas. Note the difficulties
in Corbett OR between the locals and bikes. It is a whole different culture
in rural areas. Many "city folks" do not realize this. I have lived in
small town and in rural areas.

I do not agree in any way with with the white pickup did. It was a poor
attempt to repeat what the white pickup driver had said he did.

I saw the rider and took down the info as soon as he returned to Promotory
Park. We are doing everything possible to get justice.

I did not see what happened but I have now heard more from the racer. He
did not flip off the driver and he was riding to the right.

But another racer may have been riding in the middle of the road and may
have flipped off the white pickup. The main point I was making is BE NICE
it goes much further than being rude. And it is often the next guy that
pays for the previous guys rudeness.

There is never an excuse to use a vehicle to enforce your point to a
bicycle.

Geri Bossen

>From: "Jonathan C. Puskas"
>To: Geri Bossen ,
>mccray@easystreet.com,obra@list.obra.org
>Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Estacada tt craig list comment
>Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 10:18:52 -0700 (PDT)
>
>There's at least one major flaw in this statement...
>
>It is NOT their "back yard." It is not "his grass."
>It's a public access roadway. It is not private. It
>is paid for by tax dollars of which EVERY ONE OF US
>contributes.
>
>It is preferable that we ALL act with civility. It is
>preferable that we all learn to get along. However,
>regardless of whether you "like" my mode of transport
>or like me raising a digit, the moment you utilize a
>large vehicle to intimidate or menace a
>pedestrian/cyclist (or even another vehicle), it's
>against the law.
>
>Let's not be apoligists here. A large group (raising
>funds for CHILDREN'S activities) were RIDING BICYCLES
>and for that an individual took offense and utilized a
>vehicle to HARM another person.
>
>Would you be stating that the individual's behavior
>was "understandable" if it had been one of the Junior
>riders who was driven off the road by a vehicle?
>
>The utilization of vehicles as WEAPONS must be
>stopped...I'll agree that this individual might be
>IGNORANT (actually DUMB is a more accurate word), but
>I believe they knew EXACTLY what they were doing when
>they did it.
>
>R/
>Jonathan C. Puskas
>
>--- Geri Bossen wrote:
>
> > We ALWAYS have to PLAY NICE with the locals. It
> > is kind of like someone
> > from several blocks away holding an event in your
> > back yard and you getting
> > upset when they trample your grass. Maybe your
> > wife, not you, gave the
> > permission to use your yard.
> >
> > ALWAYS ALWAYS WAVE FRIENDLY TO THE LOCAL.
> > ALWAYS BE COURTEOUS TO THE LOCALS---SMILE
> > THANK THEM FOR LETTING US USE THEIR BACK YARD.
> >
> > In spite of this incident there were no other
> > complaints from the locals.
> >
> >
> > That guy in the pick-up did not sign our race permit
> > but his neighbor may
> > have.
> >
> > We were denied a permit to hold our third TT because
> > there was going to be
> > another local event that would have increased the
> > traffic.
> >
> > The guy in the pick-up may have had no idea that he
> > actually ran the rider
> > off the road. The guy in the pick-up says he wanted
> > to stop and chat with
> > the rider regarding the use of the road. Drivers
> > are amazing ignorant of
> > the effect of slowing or stopping a vehicle near a
> > racing cyclist.
> >
> > Cyclists tend to be in the zone and not be as aware
> > as necessary around
> > vehicles. Flipping off a local is ALWAYS a mistake
> > and backfires on
> > someone-----not necessarily the guy who did it.
> >
> > Geri Bossen
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >From: Tony McCray
> > >To: obra
> > >Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Estacada tt craig list
> > comment
> > >Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 09:18:50 -0700
> > >
> > >I just quickly looked at the OBRA rules regarding
> > time trials, and it
> > >doesn't look like there is a requirement that we
> > stay to the right at
> > >all times. Does our ODOT or other permit have any
> > such requirement? I
> > >had thought that since we have a special permit to
> > use the road for a
> > >race, we could use the entire lane.
> > >
> > >-Tony
> > >
> > >Candi Murray wrote:
> > > > Who was riding a 60 lb bike?
> > > > Why do riders insist on riding in the center of
> > the road when there is
> > > > traffic?
> > > >
> > > > Candi
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> > [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
> > > > Behalf Of Galen Mittermann
> > > > Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 9:08 AM
> > > > To: OBRA Chat
> > > > Subject: [OBRA Chat] oops
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > thought i could forward with a comment.
> > apparently not.
> > > > is this guy advocating murder?
> > > >
> > > >
> > __________________________________________________
> > > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> > protection around
> > > > http://mail.yahoo.com
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > OBRA mailing list
> > > > obra@list.obra.org
> > > > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > > > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > OBRA mailing list
> > > > obra@list.obra.org
> > > > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > > > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >OBRA mailing list
> > >obra@list.obra.org
> > >http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > >Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> >
>_________________________________________________________________
> > Mortgage refinance is Hot. *Terms. Get a 5.375%* fix
> > rate. Check savings
> >
>https://www2.nextag.com/goto.jsp?product=100000035&url=%2fst.jsp&tm=y&search=mortgage_text_links_88_h2bbb&disc=y&vers=925&s=4056&p=5117
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
>
>
>Jonathan C. Puskas
>159 Fifth Street
>Lake Oswego, OR 97034
>impuskas@yahoo.com
>
>"If you're gonna charge...charge hard!"
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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_________________________________________________________________
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Jonathan C. Puskas

2007-04-16

There's at least one major flaw in this statement...

It is NOT their "back yard." It is not "his grass."
It's a public access roadway. It is not private. It
is paid for by tax dollars of which EVERY ONE OF US
contributes.

It is preferable that we ALL act with civility. It is
preferable that we all learn to get along. However,
regardless of whether you "like" my mode of transport
or like me raising a digit, the moment you utilize a
large vehicle to intimidate or menace a
pedestrian/cyclist (or even another vehicle), it's
against the law.

Let's not be apoligists here. A large group (raising
funds for CHILDREN'S activities) were RIDING BICYCLES
and for that an individual took offense and utilized a
vehicle to HARM another person.

Would you be stating that the individual's behavior
was "understandable" if it had been one of the Junior
riders who was driven off the road by a vehicle?

The utilization of vehicles as WEAPONS must be
stopped...I'll agree that this individual might be
IGNORANT (actually DUMB is a more accurate word), but
I believe they knew EXACTLY what they were doing when
they did it.

R/
Jonathan C. Puskas

--- Geri Bossen wrote:

> We ALWAYS have to PLAY NICE with the locals. It
> is kind of like someone
> from several blocks away holding an event in your
> back yard and you getting
> upset when they trample your grass. Maybe your
> wife, not you, gave the
> permission to use your yard.
>
> ALWAYS ALWAYS WAVE FRIENDLY TO THE LOCAL.
> ALWAYS BE COURTEOUS TO THE LOCALS---SMILE
> THANK THEM FOR LETTING US USE THEIR BACK YARD.
>
> In spite of this incident there were no other
> complaints from the locals.
>
>
> That guy in the pick-up did not sign our race permit
> but his neighbor may
> have.
>
> We were denied a permit to hold our third TT because
> there was going to be
> another local event that would have increased the
> traffic.
>
> The guy in the pick-up may have had no idea that he
> actually ran the rider
> off the road. The guy in the pick-up says he wanted
> to stop and chat with
> the rider regarding the use of the road. Drivers
> are amazing ignorant of
> the effect of slowing or stopping a vehicle near a
> racing cyclist.
>
> Cyclists tend to be in the zone and not be as aware
> as necessary around
> vehicles. Flipping off a local is ALWAYS a mistake
> and backfires on
> someone-----not necessarily the guy who did it.
>
> Geri Bossen
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: Tony McCray
> >To: obra
> >Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Estacada tt craig list
> comment
> >Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 09:18:50 -0700
> >
> >I just quickly looked at the OBRA rules regarding
> time trials, and it
> >doesn't look like there is a requirement that we
> stay to the right at
> >all times. Does our ODOT or other permit have any
> such requirement? I
> >had thought that since we have a special permit to
> use the road for a
> >race, we could use the entire lane.
> >
> >-Tony
> >
> >Candi Murray wrote:
> > > Who was riding a 60 lb bike?
> > > Why do riders insist on riding in the center of
> the road when there is
> > > traffic?
> > >
> > > Candi
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
> > > Behalf Of Galen Mittermann
> > > Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 9:08 AM
> > > To: OBRA Chat
> > > Subject: [OBRA Chat] oops
> > >
> > >
> > > thought i could forward with a comment.
> apparently not.
> > > is this guy advocating murder?
> > >
> > >
> __________________________________________________
> > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around
> > > http://mail.yahoo.com
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > OBRA mailing list
> > > obra@list.obra.org
> > > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > OBRA mailing list
> > > obra@list.obra.org
> > > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >OBRA mailing list
> >obra@list.obra.org
> >http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> >Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
> Mortgage refinance is Hot. *Terms. Get a 5.375%* fix
> rate. Check savings
>
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>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
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>

Jonathan C. Puskas
159 Fifth Street
Lake Oswego, OR 97034
impuskas@yahoo.com

"If you're gonna charge...charge hard!"

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Freyensee, James P

2007-04-16

I concur (in fact, I have done an NRC race out in Tennessee that did use
a major highway for the ITT). I think the Estacada location is a good
choice. Riders just need to pay attention and use their heads and
never, ever get the idea they have the right to use the whole road up to
and beyond the center line. A race that uses a road is never, ever
closed no matter what you do because a car can always choose to dis-obey
the signs/roadblocks.

J

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Jay Rideout
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 10:41 AM
To: Geri Bossen; robincalver@msn.com; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Estacada tt craig list comment

With all the factors that are needed to be considered in selecting a
course and my own limited experience in Washington and Oregon over the
past four years I would consider Estacada one of the better courses I've
ridden. Concerning riders, most seemed to stay well over to the right,
fog line or better when conditions allowed except when passing... I
know, I was passed several times. Unfortunately, there were a handfull,
less then six, that persisted in riding in the middle of the lane (I'd
estimate 4-6 feet to the left of the fog line) when no passing or road
hazard condition existed. Doesn't take many inconsiderate cyclist to
ruin it for the rest of us and, possibly, lose the use of Estacada as a
TT venue.
Jay
----- Original Message ----
From: Geri Bossen
To: robincalver@msn.com; obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 10:21:28 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Estacada tt craig list comment

Finding a place to hold a race is a challenge. If you know of a better
place let me know and we will consider it.

We take a lot of things into consideration. We do not hold the race
after
fishing season opens. We do not hold the race on a 3 day weekend.

The rural roads are less traveled. I do not know of any place that has
a
lower speed limit that would be workable. Slower speed limits mean more

traffic, cross roads etc---that's usually why the speed is lower.

This location is beautiful and has few hills and not that much traffic.

There are bathrooms and parking available. There is a safe place to
start
and finish the race. Like I said there are lots of things to consider.

Geri Bossen

>From: "Robin Calver"
>To: dan@bicyclerepairman.us, cmurray@obra.org, obra@list.obra.org
>Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Estacada tt craig list comment
>Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 09:52:42 -0700
>
>I too had a white pick up truck pass me very closely on a straight
stretch
>of road at Estacada on the way back. There was no oncoming traffic, I
was
>on the fogline trying to avoid a gravel section on the shoulder, and he
>passed me with about one foot of clearance bewtween me and his mirror.
And
>of course I was in the aero bars which as you all know is a lot less
stable
>position which I doubt he appreciated. Unfortunately he was going too
fast
>for me to get a license plate number, and frankly I was pretty startled
and
>breathed a sigh of relief that I was still upright.
>
>Judging by the comments on Craigslist, there is a segment of the
population
>who are more than happy to prove their ignorant take on the law. I
don't
>expect them to give an honest account of the facts either, as their
>subjective view of road rules is often colored by their prejudices
against
>human powered vehicles. Galen Mittermann's comment speaks succinctly
to
>this.
>
>Luckily on Sunday the injuries to the rider in the accident were
>manageable.
> I realize these incidents are few and far between but it only takes
one
>disgruntled driver to make a beautiful race a tragedy.
>
>So after the race I asked myself, with all due respect to the Bossens,
>since
>he was probably going the speed limit or faster why are we doing a TT
in a
>55 mph zone in a rural place with rural people where the road
conditions
>are
>far from ideal?
>
>Robin
>
>
>
>

_________________________________________________________________
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Jay Rideout

2007-04-16

With all the factors that are needed to be considered in selecting a course and my own limited experience in Washington and Oregon over the past four years I would consider Estacada one of the better courses I've ridden. Concerning riders, most seemed to stay well over to the right, fog line or better when conditions allowed except when passing... I know, I was passed several times. Unfortunately, there were a handfull, less then six, that persisted in riding in the middle of the lane (I'd estimate 4-6 feet to the left of the fog line) when no passing or road hazard condition existed. Doesn't take many inconsiderate cyclist to ruin it for the rest of us and, possibly, lose the use of Estacada as a TT venue.
Jay
----- Original Message ----
From: Geri Bossen
To: robincalver@msn.com; obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 10:21:28 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Estacada tt craig list comment

Finding a place to hold a race is a challenge. If you know of a better
place let me know and we will consider it.

We take a lot of things into consideration. We do not hold the race after
fishing season opens. We do not hold the race on a 3 day weekend.

The rural roads are less traveled. I do not know of any place that has a
lower speed limit that would be workable. Slower speed limits mean more
traffic, cross roads etc---that's usually why the speed is lower.

This location is beautiful and has few hills and not that much traffic.
There are bathrooms and parking available. There is a safe place to start
and finish the race. Like I said there are lots of things to consider.

Geri Bossen

>From: "Robin Calver"
>To: dan@bicyclerepairman.us, cmurray@obra.org, obra@list.obra.org
>Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Estacada tt craig list comment
>Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 09:52:42 -0700
>
>I too had a white pick up truck pass me very closely on a straight stretch
>of road at Estacada on the way back. There was no oncoming traffic, I was
>on the fogline trying to avoid a gravel section on the shoulder, and he
>passed me with about one foot of clearance bewtween me and his mirror. And
>of course I was in the aero bars which as you all know is a lot less stable
>position which I doubt he appreciated. Unfortunately he was going too fast
>for me to get a license plate number, and frankly I was pretty startled and
>breathed a sigh of relief that I was still upright.
>
>Judging by the comments on Craigslist, there is a segment of the population
>who are more than happy to prove their ignorant take on the law. I don't
>expect them to give an honest account of the facts either, as their
>subjective view of road rules is often colored by their prejudices against
>human powered vehicles. Galen Mittermann's comment speaks succinctly to
>this.
>
>Luckily on Sunday the injuries to the rider in the accident were
>manageable.
> I realize these incidents are few and far between but it only takes one
>disgruntled driver to make a beautiful race a tragedy.
>
>So after the race I asked myself, with all due respect to the Bossens,
>since
>he was probably going the speed limit or faster why are we doing a TT in a
>55 mph zone in a rural place with rural people where the road conditions
>are
>far from ideal?
>
>Robin
>
>
>
>

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Robin Calver

2007-04-16

Doug -

I understand your position, my point was just that not every TT is held on a
road where the speed limit is on a par with I-5. I am not implying that we
hold TTs in the City or that we shouldn't hold them at all.

I appreciate the fantastic job that the Bossens do with this TT and I really
like the course, however I think there are some justifiable safety concerns
that need to be ironed out. With these addressed we may generate more good
will with the locals. Perhaps we could restrict the course to the shoulder
with no crossing the fog line; this however poses its own risks given the
amount of gravel and the rough surface of the shoulder. The amount of flats
on Sunaday speak to this. I would just like to see everyone make it across
the finish line with no animosity from the locals.

Robin

>From: "Doug Sears"
>To:
>Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Estacada tt craig list comment
>Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 10:15:14 -0700
>
>Robin wrote:
> > So after the race I asked myself, with all due respect to the Bossens,
> > since he was probably going the speed limit or faster why are we doing a
> > TT in a 55 mph zone in a rural place with rural people where the road
> > conditions are far from ideal?
>
>Huh? Doesn't that describe exactly where every single TT in the state is
>held? Are you saying we should have TTs in the city, or that we shouldn't
>have TTs at all?
>
> --Doug Sears
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>OBRA mailing list
>obra@list.obra.org
>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


Geri Bossen

2007-04-16

Finding a place to hold a race is a challenge. If you know of a better
place let me know and we will consider it.

We take a lot of things into consideration. We do not hold the race after
fishing season opens. We do not hold the race on a 3 day weekend.

The rural roads are less traveled. I do not know of any place that has a
lower speed limit that would be workable. Slower speed limits mean more
traffic, cross roads etc---that's usually why the speed is lower.

This location is beautiful and has few hills and not that much traffic.
There are bathrooms and parking available. There is a safe place to start
and finish the race. Like I said there are lots of things to consider.

Geri Bossen

>From: "Robin Calver"
>To: dan@bicyclerepairman.us, cmurray@obra.org, obra@list.obra.org
>Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Estacada tt craig list comment
>Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 09:52:42 -0700
>
>I too had a white pick up truck pass me very closely on a straight stretch
>of road at Estacada on the way back. There was no oncoming traffic, I was
>on the fogline trying to avoid a gravel section on the shoulder, and he
>passed me with about one foot of clearance bewtween me and his mirror. And
>of course I was in the aero bars which as you all know is a lot less stable
>position which I doubt he appreciated. Unfortunately he was going too fast
>for me to get a license plate number, and frankly I was pretty startled and
>breathed a sigh of relief that I was still upright.
>
>Judging by the comments on Craigslist, there is a segment of the population
>who are more than happy to prove their ignorant take on the law. I don't
>expect them to give an honest account of the facts either, as their
>subjective view of road rules is often colored by their prejudices against
>human powered vehicles. Galen Mittermann's comment speaks succinctly to
>this.
>
>Luckily on Sunday the injuries to the rider in the accident were
>manageable.
> I realize these incidents are few and far between but it only takes one
>disgruntled driver to make a beautiful race a tragedy.
>
>So after the race I asked myself, with all due respect to the Bossens,
>since
>he was probably going the speed limit or faster why are we doing a TT in a
>55 mph zone in a rural place with rural people where the road conditions
>are
>far from ideal?
>
>Robin
>
>
>
>

_________________________________________________________________
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Doug Sears

2007-04-16

Robin wrote:
> So after the race I asked myself, with all due respect to the Bossens,
> since he was probably going the speed limit or faster why are we doing a
> TT in a 55 mph zone in a rural place with rural people where the road
> conditions are far from ideal?

Huh? Doesn't that describe exactly where every single TT in the state is
held? Are you saying we should have TTs in the city, or that we shouldn't
have TTs at all?

--Doug Sears


Geri Bossen

2007-04-16

We ALWAYS have to PLAY NICE with the locals. It is kind of like someone
from several blocks away holding an event in your back yard and you getting
upset when they trample your grass. Maybe your wife, not you, gave the
permission to use your yard.

ALWAYS ALWAYS WAVE FRIENDLY TO THE LOCAL.
ALWAYS BE COURTEOUS TO THE LOCALS---SMILE
THANK THEM FOR LETTING US USE THEIR BACK YARD.

In spite of this incident there were no other complaints from the locals.

That guy in the pick-up did not sign our race permit but his neighbor may
have.

We were denied a permit to hold our third TT because there was going to be
another local event that would have increased the traffic.

The guy in the pick-up may have had no idea that he actually ran the rider
off the road. The guy in the pick-up says he wanted to stop and chat with
the rider regarding the use of the road. Drivers are amazing ignorant of
the effect of slowing or stopping a vehicle near a racing cyclist.

Cyclists tend to be in the zone and not be as aware as necessary around
vehicles. Flipping off a local is ALWAYS a mistake and backfires on
someone-----not necessarily the guy who did it.

Geri Bossen

>From: Tony McCray
>To: obra
>Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Estacada tt craig list comment
>Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 09:18:50 -0700
>
>I just quickly looked at the OBRA rules regarding time trials, and it
>doesn't look like there is a requirement that we stay to the right at
>all times. Does our ODOT or other permit have any such requirement? I
>had thought that since we have a special permit to use the road for a
>race, we could use the entire lane.
>
>-Tony
>
>Candi Murray wrote:
> > Who was riding a 60 lb bike?
> > Why do riders insist on riding in the center of the road when there is
> > traffic?
> >
> > Candi
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
> > Behalf Of Galen Mittermann
> > Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 9:08 AM
> > To: OBRA Chat
> > Subject: [OBRA Chat] oops
> >
> >
> > thought i could forward with a comment. apparently not.
> > is this guy advocating murder?
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>_______________________________________________
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Robin Calver

2007-04-16

I too had a white pick up truck pass me very closely on a straight stretch
of road at Estacada on the way back. There was no oncoming traffic, I was
on the fogline trying to avoid a gravel section on the shoulder, and he
passed me with about one foot of clearance bewtween me and his mirror. And
of course I was in the aero bars which as you all know is a lot less stable
position which I doubt he appreciated. Unfortunately he was going too fast
for me to get a license plate number, and frankly I was pretty startled and
breathed a sigh of relief that I was still upright.

Judging by the comments on Craigslist, there is a segment of the population
who are more than happy to prove their ignorant take on the law. I don't
expect them to give an honest account of the facts either, as their
subjective view of road rules is often colored by their prejudices against
human powered vehicles. Galen Mittermann's comment speaks succinctly to
this.

Luckily on Sunday the injuries to the rider in the accident were manageable.
I realize these incidents are few and far between but it only takes one
disgruntled driver to make a beautiful race a tragedy.

So after the race I asked myself, with all due respect to the Bossens, since
he was probably going the speed limit or faster why are we doing a TT in a
55 mph zone in a rural place with rural people where the road conditions are
far from ideal?

Robin

>From: "Dan H"
>To: ,"obra"
>Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Estacada tt craig list comment
>Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 09:25:13 -0700
>
>I don't know about the 60# bike but I guess someone did the TT with a kid
>in
>a trailer.
>As for riding in the road center, there was a finishing lane clearly marked
>by traffic cones along the fog line leading to a white, painted finish
>line.
>More than half the people I watched finish totally blew the lane and rode
>on
>the road side of the cones.
>I listened to the rider who was allegedly run off the road give his report
>to Diane the State cop. He stated that he was "on the fog line" when the
>driver of the truck squeezed him off the road. Fortunately, he had no
>serious injuries other than some road (gravel) rash and finished the ride.
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Candi Murray"
>To: "obra"
>Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 9:10 AM
>Subject: [OBRA Chat] Estacada tt craig list comment
>
>
> > Who was riding a 60 lb bike?
> > Why do riders insist on riding in the center of the road when there is
> > traffic?
> >
> > Candi
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
> > Behalf Of Galen Mittermann
> > Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 9:08 AM
> > To: OBRA Chat
> > Subject: [OBRA Chat] oops
> >
> >
> > thought i could forward with a comment. apparently not.
> > is this guy advocating murder?
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> >
>
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>obra@list.obra.org
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Long, Steve

2007-04-16

OMG, maybe I'm off base here but it just seems like common sense to me
that we should try and stay to the right as much as possible. The road
isn't closed for us.

I don't know what happened between the HFV guy and that person in the
truck and my comment is not directed toward that incident but common, do
some of us really think we have the right to the entire road for this
event?

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Tony McCray
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 9:19 AM
To: obra
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Estacada tt craig list comment

I just quickly looked at the OBRA rules regarding time trials, and it
doesn't look like there is a requirement that we stay to the right at
all times. Does our ODOT or other permit have any such requirement? I
had thought that since we have a special permit to use the road for a
race, we could use the entire lane.

-Tony

Candi Murray wrote:
> Who was riding a 60 lb bike?
> Why do riders insist on riding in the center of the road when there is

> traffic?
>
> Candi
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org]
> On Behalf Of Galen Mittermann
> Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 9:08 AM
> To: OBRA Chat
> Subject: [OBRA Chat] oops
>
>
> thought i could forward with a comment. apparently not.
> is this guy advocating murder?
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
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>
>
>
>

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Keith A. Prior

2007-04-16

Has anyone reported this 'person' who posted that on Craigslist to the
police?

> Candi Murray wrote:
> > Who was riding a 60 lb bike?
> > Why do riders insist on riding in the center of the road when there is
> > traffic?
> >
> > Candi
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
> > Behalf Of Galen Mittermann
> > Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 9:08 AM
> > To: OBRA Chat
> > Subject: [OBRA Chat] oops
> >
> >
> > thought i could forward with a comment. apparently not.
> > is this guy advocating murder?
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
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Joe Cipale

2007-04-16

Havign a permit for a race DOES NOT entitle you to use the entire lane. If we are in a road race, we will have a race enclosure, but once you fall off the back, yuo are now just a single rider out for a ride. You MUST obey the rules of the road.

Joe

Tony McCray wrote:

> I just quickly looked at the OBRA rules regarding time trials, and it
> doesn't look like there is a requirement that we stay to the right at
> all times. Does our ODOT or other permit have any such requirement? I
> had thought that since we have a special permit to use the road for a
> race, we could use the entire lane.
>
> -Tony
>
> Candi Murray wrote:
> > Who was riding a 60 lb bike?
> > Why do riders insist on riding in the center of the road when there is
> > traffic?
> >
> > Candi
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
> > Behalf Of Galen Mittermann
> > Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 9:08 AM
> > To: OBRA Chat
> > Subject: [OBRA Chat] oops
> >
> >
> > thought i could forward with a comment. apparently not.
> > is this guy advocating murder?
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
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> obra@list.obra.org
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> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


Dan H

2007-04-16

I don't know about the 60# bike but I guess someone did the TT with a kid in
a trailer.
As for riding in the road center, there was a finishing lane clearly marked
by traffic cones along the fog line leading to a white, painted finish line.
More than half the people I watched finish totally blew the lane and rode on
the road side of the cones.
I listened to the rider who was allegedly run off the road give his report
to Diane the State cop. He stated that he was "on the fog line" when the
driver of the truck squeezed him off the road. Fortunately, he had no
serious injuries other than some road (gravel) rash and finished the ride.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Candi Murray"
To: "obra"
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 9:10 AM
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Estacada tt craig list comment

> Who was riding a 60 lb bike?
> Why do riders insist on riding in the center of the road when there is
> traffic?
>
> Candi
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
> Behalf Of Galen Mittermann
> Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 9:08 AM
> To: OBRA Chat
> Subject: [OBRA Chat] oops
>
>
> thought i could forward with a comment. apparently not.
> is this guy advocating murder?
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>


Tony McCray

2007-04-16

Thought I should clarify - I'm not suggesting we should be in the
center - we should be to the right unless being over there isn't safe -
and there are a few places on that course where rockfalls have chewed
up the road where that is the case. Just wondering what our permits say.



Tony McCray wrote:


I just quickly looked at the OBRA rules regarding time trials, and it 

doesn't look like there is a requirement that we stay to the right at
all times. Does our ODOT or other permit have any such requirement? I
had thought that since we have a special permit to use the road for a
race, we could use the entire lane.

-Tony

Candi Murray wrote:



Who was riding a 60 lb bike?

Why do riders insist on riding in the center of the road when there is
traffic?

Candi

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Galen Mittermann
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 9:08 AM
To: OBRA Chat
Subject: [OBRA Chat] oops

thought i could forward with a comment. apparently not.
is this guy advocating murder?

__________________________________________________
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Tony McCray

2007-04-16

I just quickly looked at the OBRA rules regarding time trials, and it
doesn't look like there is a requirement that we stay to the right at
all times. Does our ODOT or other permit have any such requirement? I
had thought that since we have a special permit to use the road for a
race, we could use the entire lane.

-Tony

Candi Murray wrote:
> Who was riding a 60 lb bike?
> Why do riders insist on riding in the center of the road when there is
> traffic?
>
> Candi
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
> Behalf Of Galen Mittermann
> Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 9:08 AM
> To: OBRA Chat
> Subject: [OBRA Chat] oops
>
>
> thought i could forward with a comment. apparently not.
> is this guy advocating murder?
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
>


Candi Murray

2007-04-16

Who was riding a 60 lb bike?
Why do riders insist on riding in the center of the road when there is
traffic?

Candi

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Galen Mittermann
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 9:08 AM
To: OBRA Chat
Subject: [OBRA Chat] oops

thought i could forward with a comment. apparently not.
is this guy advocating murder?

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
_______________________________________________
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