Luciano bailey
The laws apply due to rider density street design, which includes street
parking which definitly doesn't apply to sub urban areas. In terms of driver
courtesy I totally agree location makes no difference. What is different is
the I'm still on the freeway-hillsdale hwy type of rush drivers seem to be
in entering and exiting the HUB. This is a by-product of the late for work
or the let me get the the hell home driving that occurs at peak hours. I
think to assume that there is no marked difference between urban and
sub-urban commuting would lead to yet more car based bias in the future
urban developement of this and other bike friendly cvities. To fully grasp
this situation and plan for the future we cannot continue to think all is
well and the system of gradual changes in attitude and laws will serve us in
the future. I in now way claim to be Nostradamous but living in the now only
applies to emotional harmony not an inventive and enviromentally progressive
culture. Laziness abounds within our culture thus all innovation revolves
around supposed time and effort saving planning. Yes maybe there was a part
of me that would have liked to get home from Swan Island yesterday in ten
minutes dry and rested, only when all is said and done I was blessed for my
efforts and my son will be forever changed by the experience of having to
work in the worst conditions to get home without a complaint or negative
thought.
>From: "Dan H"
>To: "Doug Hormann" ,"Luciano bailey"
>
>CC:
>Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] bike stings, stop signs
>Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 20:58:43 -0700
>
>"I needed a tire lever to pry my ass off the seat"
>Doug,
>I have some chamois cream that can help that.
>Dan
>
>----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Hormann"
>To: "Luciano bailey"
>Cc:
>Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2007 7:02 PM
>Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] bike stings, stop signs
>
>
>>Luciano,
>>
>>My experience has been that drivers in the city are as likely to do stupid
>>things as those in the "sub-urban" areas. I'm completely comfortable
>>riding
>>in Beaverton or Hillsboro, and just as comfortable riding in Portland
>>whether it be NE, SE or Westside. I've found that drivers are an random
>>mix
>>of courteous, clueless, or dangerous, no matter where I'm riding. I've had
>>people try to run me off the road in Banks as well as a block from
>>Cyclepath
>>on MLK, so I don't see the need for differing laws based on geography that
>>would only only confuse riders and drivers alike. My scariest incident was
>>riding down burnside toward downtown from Sylvan with a Tri-Met bus about
>>20
>>feet behind me the whole way. My cheeks were so puckered by the time I hit
>>the light at 23rd that I needed a tire lever to pry my ass off the seat.
>>
>>Regarding laws, there is no law that requires one car length for every ten
>>miles per hour. Rather, we in law enforcement encourage people to use a
>>two
>>second gap (still no law) that says you will keep two seconds between you
>>and the vehicle in front of you. This actually translates to much more
>>than
>>80 feet at 40 MPH. Wishful thinking, I know, but that's what we encourage,
>>and typically when citing a driver for following to close we will use that
>>standard as evidence of the violation. As far as the white line at stop
>>signs go, the law actually says you must stop at the white line, at the
>>stop
>>sign or before entering cross traffic. This gives a little leeway to the
>>driver or rider as sometimes the white line is painted so far back as to
>>make it impossible to see cross traffic.
>>
>>Having said all that, I still advocate a rolling stop rule (slow down,
>>look
>>both ways then procede if clear) at stop signs for bikes. Requiring a bike
>>to come to a complete stop fails the common sense rule, but cyclists who
>>simply roll through every stop sign they come to should be thankful that
>>the
>>only thing they get is a ticket.
>>
>>Doug
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org]On
>>Behalf Of Luciano bailey
>>Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 3:28 AM
>>To: gschreckchat@comcast.net; sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com;
>>JRaedeke@roguecc.edu; jim2003@voicedoctor.net
>>Cc: obra@list.obra.org
>>Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] bike stings, stop signs
>>
>>
>>I did a photo expose on cars failing to stop and the most common stop with
>>half the car across the white line which by law is where the front of the
>>car should not cross. All of this becomes a moot point when statistically
>>damage and injury caused by motorists far outways the cyclist risk of
>>injury
>>outside the cyclist himself. What needs to be inacted is hub laws
>>pertainiing to cyclists and auto's in an urban environment which differs
>>greatly from sub-urban areas in cyclist density and common sense rules of
>>the road. Case in point one would stand great risk riding in a lane of
>>traffic in Beaverton as opposed to Hawthorne Blvd. where the lane is the
>>only logical choice. The problem is some outside the hub sub-urban driver
>>is
>>not used to this and will create idiot risk by tail gating a bike down the
>>hill doing forty just as they would with a car. The prevailiong attitude
>>of
>>the motorist is something ridiculous like he should'nt be on the road if
>>he
>>is not willing to risk getting run over. This would be true if the law
>>did'nt require one car length for every ten miles per hour which
>>translates
>>into about eighty feet at forty, yet time and time again I have had cars
>>as
>>close as ten behind me while I have descended down Hawthorne. As bike
>>rights
>>laws etc creep into the twenty first century we need to be very careful
>>that
>>we keep our minds and tax planning dollars on the future and exactly what
>>that means. To continue to try to reinvent car dominated communities is a
>>waste of time money and most of all the valuble climate and natural
>>resources of this beautiful city and state. All those wishing to see
>>future
>>gridlock and LA type air quality stand by without drastic and commited
>>effort on the part of the community at large that is the slippery slope on
>>which we now slide. A little off topic but what we are really talking
>>about
>>is the big picture.
>>
>>
>>>From: gschreckchat@comcast.net
>>>To: "Jeff Tedder & Shari" , "Raedeke,John"
>>>, "James Thomas"
>>>CC: obra@list.obra.org
>>>Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] bike stings, stop signs
>>>Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 20:32:04 +0000
>>>
>>>All fine assuming the cyclist in his or her haste does not miss seeing
>>>the
>>>car or mistakenly think he or she can get through the intersection before
>>>the car. How hard is it to do a short track stand and look both ways.
>>>
>>>It is a lot easier and generally fairer to enforce a rule consistently
>>>with
>>>a bright line than to have varying enforecement and differing standards.
>>>I
>>>would worry more about being discriminated against than being treated the
>>>same.
>>>
>>>--
>>>
>>>George Schreck
>>>gschreckchat@comcast.net
>>>(503) 502-0425
>>>
>>>-------------- Original message --------------
>>>From: "Jeff Tedder & Shari"
>>>
>>> > Well I guess everyone is assuming that all cyclist go flying through
>>>stops
>>> > signs without slowing down, this all got started about people getting
>>> > tickets for not coming to complete stops, feet down.....If you go >
>>>flying
>>> > through a stop sign then yes you do deserve a ticket, but if you come
>>> > up
>>>on
>>> > a stop sign, no cars in sight and don't come to a complete stop do you
>>> > deserve a 242.00 ticket? This is happening and has happened to people
>>>I
>>> > know....Doesn't our thin police force have better things to do, gang
>>> > shootings, rapes, murder, drug dealers selling to our kids,etc etc
>>> > etc....There's bigger fish to fry than some commuter riding into work
>>> > at
>>> > 7:30 am, doing good things for traffic problems by leaving his or her
>>>car at
>>> > home, getting some exercise and then getting slammed with a 242.00
>>>ticket.
>>> > ...How many cases of people running stop signs or lights on there
>>>bikes
>>>and
>>> > getting hit has there been lately? It's always cars hitting people
>>>from
>>> > behind or running them off the road etc........Let's worry about that
>>>before
>>> > this other issue....Just my thoughts....I am sure I will get a ear >
>>>full,
>>>so
>>> > go ahead and get started.....Have a great day.....enjoy the
>>>sunshine.....
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ----
>>> > From: "Raedeke, John"
>>> > To: "James Thomas"
>>> > Cc:
>>> > Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 10:34 AM
>>> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] bike stings, stop signs
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > >
>>> > > While this may sound like a great solution you may want to think > >
>>>about
>>> > > what psychological impact this has on the people that may hit you on
>>> > > your bike while running a stop sign. Let's say you die or are
>>>crippled,
>>> > > how does a $8.25 ticket justify this. I have a friend that hit a > >
>>>child
>>> > > that ran out in front of his car (by you calculations 45 pounds x
>>>.05
>>>=
>>> > > $2.25), he was well under the speed limit, yet there was nothing he
>>> > > could do to stop in time. The child died and the driver was so
>>> > > distraught that he could barely ride in a car, and couldn't drive
>>>for
>>> > > several years afterwards. We need to think about these situations,
>>>it
>>> > > doesn't just impact you it impacts many people. Maybe a person > >
>>>swerves
>>> > > to miss you and runs over someone else or into another car. Should >
>>> > you
>>> > > only be cited for a $8.25 fine for that??? We share these roads with
>>> > > the cars, pedestrians, cyclists and others we just all need to be
>>> > > responsible and cautious.
>>> > >
>>> > > John
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > James Thomas wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > >> This is a belated response to the bike sting thread from May 3rd. I
>>> > >> also tried to respond to the Jonathan Maus's May 11th blog http://
>>> > >>
>>>bikeportland.org/2007/05/11/one-year-later-at-the-salmon-street-stop-
>>> > >> sign/, but the blog never accepts my responses on any topic (so
>>> > >> Jonathan, drop me an email).
>>> > >>
>>> > >> The root of the problem lies in the laws for traffic violations,
>>>which
>>> > >
>>> > >> should be changed. I would like to see cyclists take a legislative
>>> > >> approach.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> Fundamentally, we should accept the responsibility for the mass of
>>>the
>>> > >
>>> > >> vehicle we are controlling. I believe not only cyclists would > >>
>>>support
>>> > >> it, but so would pedestrians and owners of smaller vehicles.
>>> > >> I am an owner and operator of various vehicles at various times,
>>> > >> including bicycles, a Mini Cooper and a full size van. When I make
>>>a
>>> > >> mistake in the van, I am taking on much more responsibility for
>>> > >> causing injury and damage. The penalty for an infraction should
>>> > >> represent that liability. A rather simple legislative solution
>>>would
>>> > >> be a rating multiplied by the mass of the vehicle.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> For example, let's start with running a stop sign. At present our
>>> > >> society has assigned a value of $242 to that infraction. For
>>> > >> simplicity, let us assume that the ideal car weighs 4840 pounds, >
>>> >> then
>>> > >> the value 0.05 could be assigned to the infraction (eg. run the
>>>stop
>>> > >> sign, get a ticket for 0.05 x the Gross Vehicle Weight Rating of >
>>> >> 4840
>>> > >> lbs, leads to a fine of $242). Now if I ran the stop sign in my van
>>> > >> and was ticketed, the 6600 lbs GVWR leads to a fine of $330 while
>>>in
>>> > >> my Mini at 3600 lbs it would lead to a fine of $180 and on my bike,
>>> > >> my gross vehicle weight might be 165 lbs leading to a fine of
>>>$8.25.
>>> > >> I think the risks of damage and my danger to my fellow members of
>>> > >> society are quite well reflected in this. After all, the laws of
>>> > >> physics apply very well to mass (as well as velocity). We could
>>>choose
>>> > >
>>> > >> net weight or gross weight or some other definition of weight, the
>>> > >> important thing is that the mass of the vehicle comes closest to
>>> > >> approximating responsibility.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> So, perhaps I should fire this email off to the BTA and my
>>> > >> legislators, but in the meantime I've cluttered your race email.
>>>Any
>>> > >> thoughts?
>>> > >>
>>> > >> James Thomas
>>> > >> _______________________________________________
>>> > >> OBRA mailing list
>>> > >> obra@list.obra.org
>>> > >> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>> > >> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>> > >
>>> > > _______________________________________________
>>> > > OBRA mailing list
>>> > > obra@list.obra.org
>>> > > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>> > > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>> > > _______________________________________________
>>> > > OBRA mailing list
>>> > > obra@list.obra.org
>>> > > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>> > > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > OBRA mailing list
>>> > obra@list.obra.org
>>> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>OBRA mailing list
>>>obra@list.obra.org
>>>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>OBRA mailing list
>>obra@list.obra.org
>>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>OBRA mailing list
>>obra@list.obra.org
>>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
>