Long, Steve

Whether the protest is valid in this case is of little consequence. The
team could be DQ'd regardless just because the official saw the
evidence.

________________________________

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of EAL
Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 4:05 PM
To: cmurray@obra.org; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Rules- The letter of the law? Intrepretation

I wasn't there and I didn't race. So I don't have a dog in this hunt.
That said, Rule 12.3 isn't ambiguous:

Protests concerning incidents during the race will be presented to
the Chief Referee in writing and accompanied by a fee of $10, which
will
be forwarded to OBRA. They must be submitted within 15 minutes of the
protester's finish

This kind of rule exists in one form or another in nearly all sporting
events. There is a strong desire for certainty and closure for an event
and aggrieved parties must act quickly and with certainty or move on to
the next race.

So while DQ is not appropriate, public reprimand etc. is still fair game
and a team that wants to forfiet on their own is certainly welcome to.

Just my .002 adjusted for inflation.

Ed Lanton

Candi Murray wrote:

Scenario
A team time trial. Times are posted at the start. Long drive
home and the
wonderful OBRA photographers start to post their wares. A 2nd
place team
notes that the team that beat them by a mere 7 seconds is
photographed over
the centerline in no less then 4 pictures. Protest is filed.
Results are
posted on the web 20 minutes later.


What to do?

OBRA rules state

15.1.2 Unless instructed by the Chief Referee, all riders must
stay to the
right of the centerline

11.1 No rider shall benefit from his or her misconduct. No team
shall
benefit from its misconduct, or the misconduct of one of its
members.

12.3 Protests concerning incidents during the race will be
presented to the
Chief Referee in writing and accompanied by a fee of $10, which
will be
forwarded to OBRA. They must be submitted within 15 minutes of
the
protester's finish


Presuming this is a standard "though shalt not cross the
centerline" event,
it's a DQ. 6" centerline violations in the corner would be
applying rules to
apply rules. This is flagrantly cutting the corner and the
distance. If
the photographs were the only four turns that they cut, its
probably worth 5
seconds at best. Since we all know that if this happened in the
photographs, it happened at 90% of the opportunities on the
course.

If the violating team is disqualified does every team evidenced
by the
photographs get disqualified? Or just the one protest acted
upon?

Do we allow the 15 minute rule from acting on the matter. Are
results really
formally posted at the event or is the on line results the final
results.
Its obviously not in everyone's interest to allow results to
stand when
there is flagrant cheating. The UIC allows "evidence"
after the fact to be submitted and disqualification to happen
significantly
later.

So many things to take into consideration.

Any help?
Candi


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Gary Cornilles

In my opinion, a blatant violation of this type should not need to be ?protested? in order to be enforced. It?s not the responsibility of the offended team to discover and report the infraction. All teams were offended by the action! It?s incumbent on the officials to act regardless of whether a team protested or not. Therefore, rule 12.3 should not apply. I don?t know if there are any rules that limit the amount of time an official has to make a judgment but I would guess there isn?t one.

I understand the need for timely results and closure but it is sometimes days before final results are posted with numerous corrections submitted after the fact. I don?t think we should use timely results as an excuse, especially in a Championship event. It?s more important to get it right.

Seth May

This is an issue for the Chief Ref to deal with. Here are the things I
would consider:
1. The books were closed. The 15 minute rule is in place for just this
reason. At some point, results must be finalized. An unending string of
protests that can happen any time in the future does no one any good.
The protester didn't believe harm was being done within their period of
protest.

2. Photographic evidence by itself isn't enough. It shows a single side
of a story. It is the officials job to pull together both the offended
party and the offending party to determine all of what happened and make
a decision, especially when the official didn't witness the incident
first hand. Often times things are more involved then people realize.
The further from the event, the more difficult it is to pull the whole
story together.

3. The rules must be enforced uniformly. If evidence is used to
disqualify one team for rule violation, all violators must be
disqualified, where the same evidence supports it. This supposes that a
protest has been accepted and that the evidence is reviewed.

I'm not saying that this is how it should be handled, I'm just saying
that as an official who occasionally has to deal with rule violations,
this is the way I would handle it.

Seth May

Candi Murray wrote:
> Scenario
> A team time trial. Times are posted at the start. Long drive home and the
> wonderful OBRA photographers start to post their wares. A 2nd place team
> notes that the team that beat them by a mere 7 seconds is photographed over
> the centerline in no less then 4 pictures. Protest is filed. Results are
> posted on the web 20 minutes later.
>
>
> What to do?
>
> OBRA rules state
>
> 15.1.2 Unless instructed by the Chief Referee, all riders must stay to the
> right of the centerline
>
> 11.1 No rider shall benefit from his or her misconduct. No team shall
> benefit from its misconduct, or the misconduct of one of its members.
>
> 12.3 Protests concerning incidents during the race will be presented to the
> Chief Referee in writing and accompanied by a fee of $10, which will be
> forwarded to OBRA. They must be submitted within 15 minutes of the
> protester's finish
>
>
> Presuming this is a standard "though shalt not cross the centerline" event,
> it's a DQ. 6" centerline violations in the corner would be applying rules to
> apply rules. This is flagrantly cutting the corner and the distance. If
> the photographs were the only four turns that they cut, its probably worth 5
> seconds at best. Since we all know that if this happened in the
> photographs, it happened at 90% of the opportunities on the course.
>
> If the violating team is disqualified does every team evidenced by the
> photographs get disqualified? Or just the one protest acted upon?
>
> Do we allow the 15 minute rule from acting on the matter. Are results really
> formally posted at the event or is the on line results the final results.
> Its obviously not in everyone's interest to allow results to stand when
> there is flagrant cheating. The UIC allows "evidence"
> after the fact to be submitted and disqualification to happen significantly
> later.
>
> So many things to take into consideration.
>
> Any help?
> Candi
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

Brian L

I believe we MUST disqualify teams that gained an advantage by cutting the
corners. If teams were avoiding accidents and were not attempting to gain an
advantage, then I don't see cause for a DQ.

The 15 minutes protest rule is not applicable in this case since the
disadvantaged teams could not have known about the cheating at that time.

In fact, the disqualifications should not be applicable to a protest and the
Chief should DQ the teams for their own safety and the integrity of OBRA.

Brian List

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Candi Murray
Sent: Lunes, 14 de Mayo de 2007 02:19 p.m.
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Rules- The letter of the law? Intrepretation

Scenario
A team time trial. Times are posted at the start. Long drive home and the
wonderful OBRA photographers start to post their wares. A 2nd place team
notes that the team that beat them by a mere 7 seconds is photographed over
the centerline in no less then 4 pictures. Protest is filed. Results are
posted on the web 20 minutes later.

What to do?

OBRA rules state

15.1.2 Unless instructed by the Chief Referee, all riders must stay to the
right of the centerline

11.1 No rider shall benefit from his or her misconduct. No team shall
benefit from its misconduct, or the misconduct of one of its members.

12.3 Protests concerning incidents during the race will be presented to the
Chief Referee in writing and accompanied by a fee of $10, which will be
forwarded to OBRA. They must be submitted within 15 minutes of the
protester's finish

Presuming this is a standard "though shalt not cross the centerline" event,
it's a DQ. 6" centerline violations in the corner would be applying rules to
apply rules. This is flagrantly cutting the corner and the distance. If
the photographs were the only four turns that they cut, its probably worth 5
seconds at best. Since we all know that if this happened in the
photographs, it happened at 90% of the opportunities on the course.

If the violating team is disqualified does every team evidenced by the
photographs get disqualified? Or just the one protest acted upon?

Do we allow the 15 minute rule from acting on the matter. Are results really
formally posted at the event or is the on line results the final results.
Its obviously not in everyone's interest to allow results to stand when
there is flagrant cheating. The UIC allows "evidence"
after the fact to be submitted and disqualification to happen significantly
later.

So many things to take into consideration.

Any help?
Candi

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Robin Calver

Consider this: Suppose there was a video camera following every team for the
duration of their run, then there would be a complete objective record.

However, as of today a full video record still would not trump Rule 12.3.
Rule 12.3 has not been amended for the 2007 season and controls this
situation. The protests fail as a matter of procedure.

Don't like Rule 12.3? Propose a change for the 2008 season.

Robin

>From: EAL
>To: cmurray@obra.org, obra@list.obra.org
>Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Rules- The letter of the law? Intrepretation
>Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 16:04:36 -0700 (PDT)
>
>I wasn't there and I didn't race. So I don't have a dog in this hunt.
>That said, Rule 12.3 isn't ambiguous:
>
> Protests concerning incidents during the race will be presented to
>the Chief Referee in writing and accompanied by a fee of $10, which will
>be forwarded to OBRA. They must be submitted within 15 minutes of the
>protester's finish
>
>
> This kind of rule exists in one form or another in nearly all sporting
>events. There is a strong desire for certainty and closure for an event
>and aggrieved parties must act quickly and with certainty or move on to the
>next race.
>
> So while DQ is not appropriate, public reprimand etc. is still fair game
>and a team that wants to forfiet on their own is certainly welcome to.
>
> Just my .002 adjusted for inflation.
>
> Ed Lanton
>
>
>Candi Murray wrote:
> Scenario
>A team time trial. Times are posted at the start. Long drive home and the
>wonderful OBRA photographers start to post their wares. A 2nd place team
>notes that the team that beat them by a mere 7 seconds is photographed over
>the centerline in no less then 4 pictures. Protest is filed. Results are
>posted on the web 20 minutes later.
>
>
>What to do?
>
>OBRA rules state
>
>15.1.2 Unless instructed by the Chief Referee, all riders must stay to the
>right of the centerline
>
>11.1 No rider shall benefit from his or her misconduct. No team shall
>benefit from its misconduct, or the misconduct of one of its members.
>
>12.3 Protests concerning incidents during the race will be presented to the
>Chief Referee in writing and accompanied by a fee of $10, which will be
>forwarded to OBRA. They must be submitted within 15 minutes of the
>protester's finish
>
>
>Presuming this is a standard "though shalt not cross the centerline" event,
>it's a DQ. 6" centerline violations in the corner would be applying rules
>to
>apply rules. This is flagrantly cutting the corner and the distance. If
>the photographs were the only four turns that they cut, its probably worth
>5
>seconds at best. Since we all know that if this happened in the
>photographs, it happened at 90% of the opportunities on the course.
>
>If the violating team is disqualified does every team evidenced by the
>photographs get disqualified? Or just the one protest acted upon?
>
>Do we allow the 15 minute rule from acting on the matter. Are results
>really
>formally posted at the event or is the on line results the final results.
>Its obviously not in everyone's interest to allow results to stand when
>there is flagrant cheating. The UIC allows "evidence"
>after the fact to be submitted and disqualification to happen significantly
>later.
>
>So many things to take into consideration.
>
>Any help?
>Candi
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>OBRA mailing list
>obra@list.obra.org
>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
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>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

EAL

I wasn't there and I didn't race. So I don't have a dog in this hunt. That said, Rule 12.3 isn't ambiguous:

Protests concerning incidents during the race will be presented to
the Chief Referee in writing and accompanied by a fee of $10, which will
be forwarded to OBRA. They must be submitted within 15 minutes of the
protester's finish

This kind of rule exists in one form or another in nearly all sporting events. There is a strong desire for certainty and closure for an event and aggrieved parties must act quickly and with certainty or move on to the next race.

So while DQ is not appropriate, public reprimand etc. is still fair game and a team that wants to forfiet on their own is certainly welcome to.

Just my .002 adjusted for inflation.

Ed Lanton


Candi Murray wrote:
Scenario
A team time trial. Times are posted at the start. Long drive home and the
wonderful OBRA photographers start to post their wares. A 2nd place team
notes that the team that beat them by a mere 7 seconds is photographed over
the centerline in no less then 4 pictures. Protest is filed. Results are
posted on the web 20 minutes later.

What to do?

OBRA rules state

15.1.2 Unless instructed by the Chief Referee, all riders must stay to the
right of the centerline

11.1 No rider shall benefit from his or her misconduct. No team shall
benefit from its misconduct, or the misconduct of one of its members.

12.3 Protests concerning incidents during the race will be presented to the
Chief Referee in writing and accompanied by a fee of $10, which will be
forwarded to OBRA. They must be submitted within 15 minutes of the
protester's finish

Presuming this is a standard "though shalt not cross the centerline" event,
it's a DQ. 6" centerline violations in the corner would be applying rules to
apply rules. This is flagrantly cutting the corner and the distance. If
the photographs were the only four turns that they cut, its probably worth 5
seconds at best. Since we all know that if this happened in the
photographs, it happened at 90% of the opportunities on the course.

If the violating team is disqualified does every team evidenced by the
photographs get disqualified? Or just the one protest acted upon?

Do we allow the 15 minute rule from acting on the matter. Are results really
formally posted at the event or is the on line results the final results.
Its obviously not in everyone's interest to allow results to stand when
there is flagrant cheating. The UIC allows "evidence"
after the fact to be submitted and disqualification to happen significantly
later.

So many things to take into consideration.

Any help?
Candi

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

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Gary Cornilles

Candi,

The "evidence" shows that the majority of teams were following (at least) the spirit of the rule and avoiding crossing the line. Clearly, a few teams blatantly disregarded the centerline rule and were simply using the fastest line possible, whenever possible. I wouldn?t necessarily call it cheating but if the great majority of teams were able to stay to the right of the line I don?t believe it was in the interest of safety that their line was determined.

How much of an advantage was gained is hard to quantify but, it seems reasonable that this team?s actions gave them enough of an advantage to impact the outcome of their particular race.

While I agree with George that the photographers should not be put in the position to police rules violations; it?s not uncommon for Race Officials to use video feeds to determine violations ?after the fact? in Pro races. I don?t think it would be unreasonable for you as an official to use this evidence in support of disciplinary action. What that action should be is up for discussion but I believe disqualifying a team for this violation is a bit harsh. The rules should be amended to give the head official the discretion of penalizing a team in an appropriate manner (perhaps a time penalty) based on the evidence presented.

The difficulty comes in awarding another team the victory based on the assumption that they committed no violations of their own. Is there any team out there that can say they never crossed the line during the race? Personally, I witnessed a lot of teams that ?assumed? the marshaled corners were closed and used the entire road. I don?t consider that a violation in the spirit of the rule.

In light of this evidence and with all the tools available to review post race data, there is no reason the 15 minute protest rule should continue to stand. If it's unfair, it's unfair and should be corrected if possible.

Regardless of what your decision is, the rules should be amended to address just such a scenario in the future. It will come up again?

jakebigham

I was going to reply off list because I didn't want to get caught in
the crossfire, but I think I am considering this in a pretty unbiased
way. I don't know who the team(s) are that are involved, I haven't
checked out the photos; I don't have a dog in this hunt one way or
the other. So here are some thoughts:
1) 15.1.2 speaks for itself - there is no issue here, if there is a
violation then there is a violation.

2) 11.1 Again, very clear.

3) 12.3 - Here I think there is a difficulty. This rule seems to
actively dissuade and discourage protests; I can understand wanting
to not encourage protests, but the time limitation of 15 minutes plus
$10 is a bit much. Does this mean the rider must finish, hurry over
to get money, hurry back to the officials and make the protest within
15 minutes? Lets say someone forced a rider off the road (an extreme
example I admit but go with me for a minute) would the rider's
protest be disallowed because they were in an ambulance? What about
races were the finish is miles away from the car parks, how does 15
minutes make sense there? Time trials are particularly mismatched to
this rule because by the very nature of the contest individuals from
the same field are not finishing at the same (relative) time.
Even if we ignore the question of protests, in this case
there sounds as if there is evidence of an unmistakable kind that
exists without the need of a protest. So let's forget 12.3 for a
minute: official sees photographic evidence of a rule violation,
official makes determination, end of story.
I have to disagree with George Schreck about his
comments on putting "photographers in the position of policemen". If
I understand the circumstance they are certainly not policemen - they
were taking photographs for an entirely different reason... that just
happen to illustrate a violation to the racers and officials who saw
those photographs. It is the fact that these photographs were taken
"in a random fashion for a different purpose" that makes them
legitimate. If the photographer were set up in a certain spot hoping
to take pictures of rule violations that would be a different story.
Then they would be acting like police. As for evidence being
"submitted after the fact", I would generally trust that a whole lot
more than evidence submitted before the fact.
I think almost all evidence is submitted after the fact.
OK- I'll shut up now - Jake Bigham

On May 14, 2007, at 2:27 PM, gschreckchat@comcast.net wrote:

> I am not sure we want to put the photographers in the position of
> being the policemen of these things. The photogrpahers are there
> for a different purpose and may not be taking photos of all the
> teams or posting all of the pictures. We have officials, and if
> they see things, fine, but if they do not and no other participant
> sees it at the time and protests, I do not think we should be
> submiting after the fact evidence that may have been taken in a
> random fashion and for a different purpose.
>
> I realize this may not approach the perfection that many in OBRA
> desire, but the quest foor perfection often leads to more
> complexity and other problems. There is some elegance in simplicity
>
> --
>
> George Schreck
> gschreckchat@comcast.net
> (503) 502-0425
>
> -------------- Original message --------------
> From: "Candi Murray"
>
> > Scenario
> > A team time trial. Times are posted at the start. Long drive home
> and the
> > wonderful OBRA photographers start to post their wares. A 2nd
> place team
> > notes that the team that beat them by a mere 7 seconds is
> photographed over
> > the centerline in no less then 4 pictures. Protest is filed.
> Results are
> > posted on the web 20 minutes later.
> >
> >
> > What to do?
> >
> > OBRA rules state
> >
> > 15.1.2 Unless instructed by the Chief Referee, all riders must
> stay to the
> > right of the centerline
> >
> > 11.1 No rider shall benefit from his or her misconduct. No team
> shall
> > benefit from its misconduct, or the misconduct of one of its
> members.
> >
> > 12.3 Protests concern ing in cidents during the race will be
> presented to the
> > Chief Referee in writing and accompanied by a fee of $10, which
> will be
> > forwarded to OBRA. They must be submitted within 15 minutes of the
> > protester's finish
> >
> >
> > Presuming this is a standard "though shalt not cross the
> centerline" event,
> > it's a DQ. 6" centerline violations in the corner would be
> applying rules to
> > apply rules. This is flagrantly cutting the corner and the
> distance. If
> > the photographs were the only four turns that they cut, its
> probably worth 5
> > seconds at best. Since we all know that if this happened in the
> > photographs, it happened at 90% of the opportunities on the course.
> >
> > If the violating team is disqualified does every team evidenced
> by the
> > photographs get disqualified? Or just the one protest acted upon?
> >
> > Do we allow the 15 minute rule from acting on the matter. Are
> result s real ly
> > formally posted at the event or is the on line results the final
> results.
> > Its obviously not in everyone's interest to allow results to
> stand when
> > there is flagrant cheating. The UIC allows "evidence"
> > after the fact to be submitted and disqualification to happen
> significantly
> > later.
> >
> > So many things to take into consideration.
> >
> > Any help?
> > Candi
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Evan Plews

It was a TTT who is supposed to see them?

If our team is in the photos and the centerline rule was in effect, I
request our team be DQ'ed. I of course challenge all the other team managers
in OBRA to step up and follow the rules. Cheating is wrong and has virtually
ruined cycling over and over again.

If someone gets away with cheating because no one sees them that is
unfortunate. That is not the case here! The photos prove otherwise.

Riding on the left side of the road is only LAWFUL if the course is closed.
In effect each of these teams is not only breaking OBRA rules but the law as
well. What kind of image do we want in our community?

Furthermore, if a car was on the course and hit and killed a rider (or four)
over the line then what? I don't imagine anyone here has the answer to that
question...

Evan Plews
Capitol Subaru Cycling

----Original Message Follows----
From: gschreckchat@comcast.net
To: cmurray@obra.org,
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Rules- The letter of the law? Intrepretation
Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 21:27:43 +0000

I am not sure we want to put the photographers in the position of being the
policemen of these things. The photogrpahers are there for a different
purpose and may not be taking photos of all the teams or posting all of the
pictures. We have officials, and if they see things, fine, but if they do
not and no other participant sees it at the time and protests, I do not
think we should be submiting after the fact evidence that may have been
taken in a random fashion and for a different purpose.

I realize this may not approach the perfection that many in OBRA desire, but
the quest foor perfection often leads to more complexity and other problems.
There is some elegance in simplicity

--

George Schreck
gschreckchat@comcast.net
(503) 502-0425

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Candi Murray"

> Scenario
> A team time trial. Times are posted at the start. Long drive home and the
> wonderful OBRA photographers start to post their wares. A 2nd place team
> notes that the team that beat them by a mere 7 seconds is photographed
over
> the centerline in no less then 4 pictures. Protest is filed. Results are
> posted on the web 20 minutes later.
>
>
> What to do?
>
> OBRA rules state
>
> 15.1.2 Unless instructed by the Chief Referee, all riders must stay to
the
> right of the centerline
>
> 11.1 No rider shall benefit from his or her misconduct. No team shall
> benefit from its misconduct, or the misconduct of one of its members.
>
> 12.3 Protests concerning incidents during the race will be presented to
the
> Chief Referee in writing and accompanied by a fee of $10, which will be
> forwarded to OBRA. They must be submitted within 15 minutes of the
> protester's finish
>
>
> Presuming this is a standard "though shalt not cross the centerline"
event,
> it's a DQ. 6" centerline violations in the corner would be applying rules
to
> apply rules. This is flagrantly cutting the corner and the distance. If
> the photographs were the only four turns that they cut, its probably
worth 5
> seconds at best. Since we all know that if this happened in the
> photographs, it happened at 90% of the opportunities on the course.
>
> If the violating team is disqualified does every team evidenced by the
> photographs get disqualified? Or just the one protest acted upon?
>
> Do we allow the 15 minute rule from acting on the matter. Are results
really
> formally posted at the event or is the on line results the final results.
> Its obviously not in everyone's interest to allow results to stand when
> there is flagrant cheating. The UIC allows "evidence"
> after the fact to be submitted and disqualification to happen
significantly
> later.
>
> So many things to take into consideration.
>
> Any help?
> Candi
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

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Ken Finch

Candi,

Ultimately you have to use your own judgement here but I'd consider pretty heavily the "15 minute rule" in considering honoring the protest here. I think there's a good reason for this rule in general. I think if you allow teams or racers to come home, and start combing through the photos posted on the web looking for infractions of competing racers, you'd really be opening a can of worms.

Who's to say the team filing the protest didn't commit the same infraction? Or maybe they just weren't unlucky enough to get caught on camera?

This is not to say that the centerline infractions weren't committed, I think it's pretty apparent that the majority of teams, if not all of them, committed this infraction. I'm pretty sure ours did. I'd certainly consider the number of teams that were photographed doing this as mitigating circumstances at least. I think I'd give a pretty hearty warning to everyone in general and let the results stand.

Just my opinion of course.

Ken F.

---------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Rules- The letter of the law? Intrepretation
Date: 05/14/2007 02:18 PM
From: Candi Murray
Scenario
A team time trial. Times are posted at the start. Long drive home and the
wonderful OBRA photographers start to post their wares. A 2nd place team
notes that the team that beat them by a mere 7 seconds is photographed over
the centerline in no less then 4 pictures. Protest is filed. Results are
posted on the web 20 minutes later.

What to do?

OBRA rules state

15.1.2 Unless instructed by the Chief Referee, all riders must stay to the
right of the centerline

11.1 No rider shall benefit from his or her misconduct. No team shall
benefit from its misconduct, or the misconduct of one of its members.

12.3 Protests concerning incidents during the race will be presented to the
Chief Referee in writing and accompanied by a fee of $10, which will be
forwarded to OBRA. They must be submitted within 15 minutes of the
protester's finish

Presuming this is a standard "though shalt not cross the centerline" event,
it's a DQ. 6" centerline violations in the corner would be applying rules to
apply rules. This is flagrantly cutting the corner and the distance. If
the photographs were the only four turns that they cut, its probably worth 5
seconds at best. Since we all know that if this happened in the
photographs, it happened at 90% of the opportunities on the course.

If the violating team is disqualified does every team evidenced by the
photographs get disqualified? Or just the one protest acted upon?

Do we allow the 15 minute rule from acting on the matter. Are results really
formally posted at the event or is the on line results the final results.
Its obviously not in everyone's interest to allow results to stand when
there is flagrant cheating. The UIC allows "evidence"
after the fact to be submitted and disqualification to happen significantly
later.

So many things to take into consideration.

Any help?
Candi

Jeff Tedder & Shari

Hey George that's a great line for Bike sting string.....

Perfection often leads to more complexity and other problems......There is some elegance to simplicity....

Exactly, don't make coming to a stop sign so complex, keep it simple and some common sense when deciding who to give 242.00 complex tickets to.....

---- Original Message -----
From: gschreckchat@comcast.net
To: cmurray@obra.org ; obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 2:27 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Rules- The letter of the law? Intrepretation

I am not sure we want to put the photographers in the position of being the policemen of these things. The photogrpahers are there for a different purpose and may not be taking photos of all the teams or posting all of the pictures. We have officials, and if they see things, fine, but if they do not and no other participant sees it at the time and protests, I do not think we should be submiting after the fact evidence that may have been taken in a random fashion and for a different purpose.

I realize this may not approach the perfection that many in OBRA desire, but the quest foor perfection often leads to more complexity and other problems. There is some elegance in simplicity

--

George Schreck
gschreckchat@comcast.net
(503) 502-0425

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Candi Murray"

> Scenario
> A team time trial. Times are posted at the start. Long drive home and the
> wonderful OBRA photographers start to post their wares. A 2nd place team
> notes that the team that beat them by a mere 7 seconds is photographed over
> the centerline in no less then 4 pictures. Protest is filed. Results are
> posted on the web 20 minutes later.
>
>
> What to do?
>
> OBRA rules state
>
> 15.1.2 Unless instructed by the Chief Referee, all riders must stay to the
> right of the centerline
>
> 11.1 No rider shall benefit from his or her misconduct. No team shall
> benefit from its misconduct, or the misconduct of one of its members.
>
> 12.3 Protests concern ing in cidents during the race will be presented to the
> Chief Referee in writing and accompanied by a fee of $10, which will be
> forwarded to OBRA. They must be submitted within 15 minutes of the
> protester's finish
>
>
> Presuming this is a standard "though shalt not cross the centerline" event,
> it's a DQ. 6" centerline violations in the corner would be applying rules to
> apply rules. This is flagrantly cutting the corner and the distance. If
> the photographs were the only four turns that they cut, its probably worth 5
> seconds at best. Since we all know that if this happened in the
> photographs, it happened at 90% of the opportunities on the course.
>
> If the violating team is disqualified does every team evidenced by the
> photographs get disqualified? Or just the one protest acted upon?
>
> Do we allow the 15 minute rule from acting on the matter. Are result s real ly
> formally posted at the event or is the on line results the final results.
> Its obviously not in everyone's interest to allow results to stand when
> there is flagrant cheating. The UIC allows "evidence"
> after the fact to be submitted and disqualification to happen significantly
> later.
>
> So many things to take into consideration.
>
> Any help?
> Candi
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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gschreckchat@comcast.net

I am not sure we want to put the photographers in the position of being the policemen of these things. The photogrpahers are there for a different purpose and may not be taking photos of all the teams or posting all of the pictures. We have officials, and if they see things, fine, but if they do not and no other participant sees it at the time and protests, I do not think we should be submiting after the fact evidence that may have been taken in a random fashion and for a different purpose.

I realize this may not approach the perfection that many in OBRA desire, but the quest foor perfection often leads to more complexity and other problems. There is some elegance in simplicity

--

George Schreck
gschreckchat@comcast.net
(503) 502-0425

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Candi Murray"

> Scenario
> A team time trial. Times are posted at the start. Long drive home and the
> wonderful OBRA photographers start to post their wares. A 2nd place team
> notes that the team that beat them by a mere 7 seconds is photographed over
> the centerline in no less then 4 pictures. Protest is filed. Results are
> posted on the web 20 minutes later.
>
>
> What to do?
>
> OBRA rules state
>
> 15.1.2 Unless instructed by the Chief Referee, all riders must stay to the
> right of the centerline
>
> 11.1 No rider shall benefit from his or her misconduct. No team shall
> benefit from its misconduct, or the misconduct of one of its members.
>
> 12.3 Protests concerning incidents during the race will be presented to the
> Chief Referee in writing and accompanied by a fee of $10, which will be
> forwarded to OBRA. They must be submitted within 15 minutes of the
> protester's finish
>
>
> Presuming this is a standard "though shalt not cross the centerline" event,
> it's a DQ. 6" centerline violations in the corner would be applying rules to
> apply rules. This is flagrantly cutting the corner and the distance. If
> the photographs were the only four turns that they cut, its probably worth 5
> seconds at best. Since we all know that if this happened in the
> photographs, it happened at 90% of the opportunities on the course.
>
> If the violating team is disqualified does every team evidenced by the
> photographs get disqualified? Or just the one protest acted upon?
>
> Do we allow the 15 minute rule from acting on the matter. Are results really
> formally posted at the event or is the on line results the final results.
> Its obviously not in everyone's interest to allow results to stand when
> there is flagrant cheating. The UIC allows "evidence"
> after the fact to be submitted and disqualification to happen significantly
> later.
>
> So many things to take into consideration.
>
> Any help?
> Candi
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Candi Murray

Scenario
A team time trial. Times are posted at the start. Long drive home and the
wonderful OBRA photographers start to post their wares. A 2nd place team
notes that the team that beat them by a mere 7 seconds is photographed over
the centerline in no less then 4 pictures. Protest is filed. Results are
posted on the web 20 minutes later.

What to do?

OBRA rules state

15.1.2 Unless instructed by the Chief Referee, all riders must stay to the
right of the centerline

11.1 No rider shall benefit from his or her misconduct. No team shall
benefit from its misconduct, or the misconduct of one of its members.

12.3 Protests concerning incidents during the race will be presented to the
Chief Referee in writing and accompanied by a fee of $10, which will be
forwarded to OBRA. They must be submitted within 15 minutes of the
protester's finish

Presuming this is a standard "though shalt not cross the centerline" event,
it's a DQ. 6" centerline violations in the corner would be applying rules to
apply rules. This is flagrantly cutting the corner and the distance. If
the photographs were the only four turns that they cut, its probably worth 5
seconds at best. Since we all know that if this happened in the
photographs, it happened at 90% of the opportunities on the course.

If the violating team is disqualified does every team evidenced by the
photographs get disqualified? Or just the one protest acted upon?

Do we allow the 15 minute rule from acting on the matter. Are results really
formally posted at the event or is the on line results the final results.
Its obviously not in everyone's interest to allow results to stand when
there is flagrant cheating. The UIC allows "evidence"
after the fact to be submitted and disqualification to happen significantly
later.

So many things to take into consideration.

Any help?
Candi