Re: Rules? The Letter of Law, etc.

uma kleppinger

2007-05-14

Wow! That's a lot of detail you got from your official! Kind of hard to believe actually. We got a small bit of that but not all. Maybe we didn't get that detail because we were one of the early groups to go off and they hadn't quite figured out what to say or how to say all of that yet? If the centerline rule was bent for the start, why was an official waving us down and pointing us inside the lane as we came past a group that was about to start? I do know the official who gave us our instructions wasn't reading from any kind of cue sheet, he was just looking at a clipboard with the start times and team names. Maybe he just forgot to tell us? Did anyone else

Whether the 15-minute limit for the protest is upheld or the evidence is consider after the fact, I propose the starting official have a checklist of instructions to repeat verbatim for each team. This was discussed at the officials training in March to help tighten up this sort of inconsistency.

I'll take any additional comments off-line.

~uma


Todd.Dye@CH2M.com

2007-05-14

I mentioned this to Candi off-list, but I'll repeat here.

The instructions we were given at the start line indicated that we were
able to use the full width of the turn on the corners that had corner
marshals. I don't recall the exact language used or that the
instruction were as crystal clear as what Craig recalls (maybe my memory
fails me), but I was certainly given the impression that going over
centerline was allowed in the corners that had corner marshals.

Common sense would dictate that the centerline rule would be in effect
elsewhere on the course.

The start line was another matter. Teams were staged 4 riders across at
the start line, which takes up the whole lane. Maybe I am mistaken,
but I thought there was a course marshal stopping traffic in the
oncoming lane near the start. Maybe not though, we did have an oncoming
car come through at us on our first lap. At any rate, there was no safe
way to observe the centerline with the way the start was configured,
since hugging the yellow line with the right lane packed full already
isn't safe either.

I don't think you should enforce centerline violations on a marshaled
corner if the official announces (at least to some teams) at the start
that you can use the whole road (or some such language that implies that
is the case).

Some of the photos in question were taken on the 90 degree left hand
turn about 2/3 of the way down the east side of the course (heading
south). This corner was not at an intersection and had no corner
marshals. I think that would qualify as a centerline violation. At
least it would in a road race.

So, what about marshaled corners in a road race? I don't think I've
ever seen the peloton stay within the yellow lines going around a tight
corner in a road race where corner marshals are holding back traffic.
So, is that because it is OK to cross the centerline where the corner
marshal has control of traffic, or is it becuase it would be near
impossible to enforce (try taking down 75 numbers after every corner)?


________________________________

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Craig Austin
Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 4:13 PM
To: uma kleppinger; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Rules? The Letter of Law, etc.

I can't speak for the other groups, but the official at the start line
was very clear for my group; he said we could cross the line only where
there were corner marshals and traffic controls; he specifically
mentioned the start line as one of those places, as another team came by
us while he was explaining. He also mentioned the corner between the
finish and the start, the first marshalled corner after the start, and
the hard left-hander before the run-in to the finish. He said the road
was open to traffic everywhere else and that we should observe the
centerline rule. It seemed pretty clear to me at the time that he was
saying there were certain sharp corners where you might go wide, and
those corners were all manned to make sure traffic was controlled. He
never said anything about taking a shorter line elsewhere. Maybe he
didn't say it to everyone, I don't know, but at least in our case there
was no gray area over the centerline rule.

Craig Austin

________________________________

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org on behalf of uma kleppinger
Sent: Mon 5/14/2007 3:30 PM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Rules? The Letter of Law, etc.

At the recent OBRA officials training, Candi was quite clear about the
center line rule. I might say she hammered it home. In fact she said it
about 12 different ways. My favorite one was: "Cross the center line and
you're dead".

Having said that, I guess I'm dead or close to it. Our team had to cross
the center line to pass a large group of riders and bystanders
(officials, maybe?) fanned out across the roadway at the start line. (If
you look at the photos you'll see some 4 person teams straddling their
bikes at the start, taking up the entire lane or pretty near to it.)
There was no way for our team to safely pass when we did without moving
just to the left of center. There was an official there with the group
of riders waiting to start who was motioning for us to slow down. We
literally would have had to STOP in order to not cross the line at all.
We rode the line and moved back to the right side of the road as quickly
as possible after passing the team and officials on the roadway at the
start. It was the only safe option. I noticed most teams did the same,
and actually quite a few just moved well into the oncoming traffic lane
around the start.

No instructions were given to us regarding how to deal with this
situation prior to the race start. No special instructions were given
regarding center line at all.

Still, being a good student at the officials training, I figured center
line rule was in force. This assumption meant our team slowed for sharp
corners rather than shaving valuable time off our score by flying across
the road into a more shallow turn. It's the kind of maneuver effectively
"straightens out the road" and chops seconds off your time by shortening
your distance. I know this, but I chose to obey the rules. To find out
later that SO MANY did not is maddening. Perhaps I am naive and should
have known that rules don't apply to time trials where riders are going
faster (it seems this is the logic several people have used in defending
cutting corners).

Cornering that way would have won the race for us but I am absolutely
positive it would have improved our time, and while I wasn't competing
against the teams that *did* flagrantly violate this sacred rule, you
can't have a rule go both ways and only apply to *some* teams. When I
went online to look at the photos I was appalled at the flagrant and
certifiably unfair disregard for this rule.

As to the comment "it is a race, they are riding hard as a team and
trying to push the limit and get a championship medal. No one is hurt,
no one is worse off for it." I have to say: It is not just a race, it is
a time trial. Every second counts. Those teams who went shallow into the
turns well into the oncoming lane knew exactly what they were doing. Had
it been legal I would have done the same. Because every second counts
and because I know that I could save time and maintain a higher speed by
taking a corner that way.

As for no one being hurt, define hurt. If we don't all play by the same
rules, it's not a fair fight, it's hitting below the belt. If you were
racing, I think you'd agree, that kinda hurts a little. Time trialing is
painful enough without adding insult to injury.

As for photographers editing their pics, I say, just post the photos.
The work of the photographers is to document the races, not editorialize
by becoming ad-hoc race officials while they are editing for picture
quality.

Maybe everyone will have to be DQd to set the example that centerline
rules are omnipotent. Rematch, anyone?
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Joe Cipale

2007-05-14

I can honestly say my team violated the CL rule on two occasions:
1 - AT the Start line when two teams were staging during our laps 2 and 3.
2 - At the final left-right jog when the Team O rider hit the deck 100 meters or so in front of us and was still sitting in the middle of the road when we came upon him (he was in the middle of the turn, leaving us no choice but to swing to the inside).

Joe C.

uma kleppinger wrote:

> At the recent OBRA officials training, Candi was quite clear about the center line rule. I might say she hammered it home. In fact she said it about 12 different ways. My favorite one was: "Cross the center line and you're dead".
>
> Having said that, I guess I'm dead or close to it. Our team had to cross the center line to pass a large group of riders and bystanders (officials, maybe?) fanned out across the roadway at the start line. (If you look at the photos you'll see some 4 person teams straddling their bikes at the start, taking up the entire lane or pretty near to it.) There was no way for our team to safely pass when we did without moving just to the left of center. There was an official there with the group of riders waiting to start who was motioning for us to slow down. We literally would have had to STOP in order to not cross the line at all. We rode the line and moved back to the right side of the road as quickly as possible after passing the team and officials on the roadway at the start. It was the only safe option. I noticed most teams did the same, and actually quite a few just moved well into the oncoming traffic lane around the start.
>
> No instructions were given to us regarding how to deal with this situation prior to the race start. No special instructions were given regarding center line at all.
>
> Still, being a good student at the officials training, I figured center line rule was in force. This assumption meant our team slowed for sharp corners rather than shaving valuable time off our score by flying across the road into a more shallow turn. It's the kind of maneuver effectively "straightens out the road" and chops seconds off your time by shortening your distance. I know this, but I chose to obey the rules. To find out later that SO MANY did not is maddening. Perhaps I am naive and should have known that rules don't apply to time trials where riders are going faster (it seems this is the logic several people have used in defending cutting corners).
>
> Cornering that way would have won the race for us but I am absolutely positive it would have improved our time, and while I wasn't competing against the teams that *did* flagrantly violate this sacred rule, you can't have a rule go both ways and only apply to *some* teams. When I went online to look at the photos I was appalled at the flagrant and certifiably unfair disregard for this rule.
>
> As to the comment "it is a race, they are riding hard as a team and trying to push the limit and get a championship medal. No one is hurt, no one is worse off for it." I have to say: It is not just a race, it is a time trial. Every second counts. Those teams who went shallow into the turns well into the oncoming lane knew exactly what they were doing. Had it been legal I would have done the same. Because every second counts and because I know that I could save time and maintain a higher speed by taking a corner that way.
>
> As for no one being hurt, define hurt. If we don't all play by the same rules, it's not a fair fight, it's hitting below the belt. If you were racing, I think you'd agree, that kinda hurts a little. Time trialing is painful enough without adding insult to injury.
>
> As for photographers editing their pics, I say, just post the photos. The work of the photographers is to document the races, not editorialize by becoming ad-hoc race officials while they are editing for picture quality.
>
> Maybe everyone will have to be DQd to set the example that centerline rules are omnipotent. Rematch, anyone?
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


Craig Austin

2007-05-14

I can't speak for the other groups, but the official at the start line was very clear for my group; he said we could cross the line only where there were corner marshals and traffic controls; he specifically mentioned the start line as one of those places, as another team came by us while he was explaining. He also mentioned the corner between the finish and the start, the first marshalled corner after the start, and the hard left-hander before the run-in to the finish. He said the road was open to traffic everywhere else and that we should observe the centerline rule. It seemed pretty clear to me at the time that he was saying there were certain sharp corners where you might go wide, and those corners were all manned to make sure traffic was controlled. He never said anything about taking a shorter line elsewhere. Maybe he didn't say it to everyone, I don't know, but at least in our case there was no gray area over the centerline rule.

Craig Austin

________________________________

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org on behalf of uma kleppinger
Sent: Mon 5/14/2007 3:30 PM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Rules? The Letter of Law, etc.

At the recent OBRA officials training, Candi was quite clear about the center line rule. I might say she hammered it home. In fact she said it about 12 different ways. My favorite one was: "Cross the center line and you're dead".

Having said that, I guess I'm dead or close to it. Our team had to cross the center line to pass a large group of riders and bystanders (officials, maybe?) fanned out across the roadway at the start line. (If you look at the photos you'll see some 4 person teams straddling their bikes at the start, taking up the entire lane or pretty near to it.) There was no way for our team to safely pass when we did without moving just to the left of center. There was an official there with the group of riders waiting to start who was motioning for us to slow down. We literally would have had to STOP in order to not cross the line at all. We rode the line and moved back to the right side of the road as quickly as possible after passing the team and officials on the roadway at the start. It was the only safe option. I noticed most teams did the same, and actually quite a few just moved well into the oncoming traffic lane around the start.

No instructions were given to us regarding how to deal with this situation prior to the race start. No special instructions were given regarding center line at all.

Still, being a good student at the officials training, I figured center line rule was in force. This assumption meant our team slowed for sharp corners rather than shaving valuable time off our score by flying across the road into a more shallow turn. It's the kind of maneuver effectively "straightens out the road" and chops seconds off your time by shortening your distance. I know this, but I chose to obey the rules. To find out later that SO MANY did not is maddening. Perhaps I am naive and should have known that rules don't apply to time trials where riders are going faster (it seems this is the logic several people have used in defending cutting corners).

Cornering that way would have won the race for us but I am absolutely positive it would have improved our time, and while I wasn't competing against the teams that *did* flagrantly violate this sacred rule, you can't have a rule go both ways and only apply to *some* teams. When I went online to look at the photos I was appalled at the flagrant and certifiably unfair disregard for this rule.

As to the comment "it is a race, they are riding hard as a team and trying to push the limit and get a championship medal. No one is hurt, no one is worse off for it." I have to say: It is not just a race, it is a time trial. Every second counts. Those teams who went shallow into the turns well into the oncoming lane knew exactly what they were doing. Had it been legal I would have done the same. Because every second counts and because I know that I could save time and maintain a higher speed by taking a corner that way.

As for no one being hurt, define hurt. If we don't all play by the same rules, it's not a fair fight, it's hitting below the belt. If you were racing, I think you'd agree, that kinda hurts a little. Time trialing is painful enough without adding insult to injury.

As for photographers editing their pics, I say, just post the photos. The work of the photographers is to document the races, not editorialize by becoming ad-hoc race officials while they are editing for picture quality.

Maybe everyone will have to be DQd to set the example that centerline rules are omnipotent. Rematch, anyone?
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


uma kleppinger

2007-05-14

At the recent OBRA officials training, Candi was quite clear about the center line rule. I might say she hammered it home. In fact she said it about 12 different ways. My favorite one was: "Cross the center line and you're dead".

Having said that, I guess I'm dead or close to it. Our team had to cross the center line to pass a large group of riders and bystanders (officials, maybe?) fanned out across the roadway at the start line. (If you look at the photos you'll see some 4 person teams straddling their bikes at the start, taking up the entire lane or pretty near to it.) There was no way for our team to safely pass when we did without moving just to the left of center. There was an official there with the group of riders waiting to start who was motioning for us to slow down. We literally would have had to STOP in order to not cross the line at all. We rode the line and moved back to the right side of the road as quickly as possible after passing the team and officials on the roadway at the start. It was the only safe option. I noticed most teams did the same, and actually quite a few just moved well into the oncoming traffic lane around the start.

No instructions were given to us regarding how to deal with this situation prior to the race start. No special instructions were given regarding center line at all.

Still, being a good student at the officials training, I figured center line rule was in force. This assumption meant our team slowed for sharp corners rather than shaving valuable time off our score by flying across the road into a more shallow turn. It's the kind of maneuver effectively "straightens out the road" and chops seconds off your time by shortening your distance. I know this, but I chose to obey the rules. To find out later that SO MANY did not is maddening. Perhaps I am naive and should have known that rules don't apply to time trials where riders are going faster (it seems this is the logic several people have used in defending cutting corners).

Cornering that way would have won the race for us but I am absolutely positive it would have improved our time, and while I wasn't competing against the teams that *did* flagrantly violate this sacred rule, you can't have a rule go both ways and only apply to *some* teams. When I went online to look at the photos I was appalled at the flagrant and certifiably unfair disregard for this rule.

As to the comment "it is a race, they are riding hard as a team and trying to push the limit and get a championship medal. No one is hurt, no one is worse off for it." I have to say: It is not just a race, it is a time trial. Every second counts. Those teams who went shallow into the turns well into the oncoming lane knew exactly what they were doing. Had it been legal I would have done the same. Because every second counts and because I know that I could save time and maintain a higher speed by taking a corner that way.

As for no one being hurt, define hurt. If we don't all play by the same rules, it's not a fair fight, it's hitting below the belt. If you were racing, I think you'd agree, that kinda hurts a little. Time trialing is painful enough without adding insult to injury.

As for photographers editing their pics, I say, just post the photos. The work of the photographers is to document the races, not editorialize by becoming ad-hoc race officials while they are editing for picture quality.

Maybe everyone will have to be DQd to set the example that centerline rules are omnipotent. Rematch, anyone?