Luciano bailey

After reviewing the two hundred plus photos the point is well taken, the
team in question was flagrant in there methodical cutting of the course, but
rest assured they were not the only culprits caught on film. I think that
most of the other violations bordered on marginal in comparison. If anyone
from said team is disputing the photos proof as well as intent I say we blow
them up side by side as a poster for centerline violation no-no"s. Thanks to
all for there feedback Cheers.

>From: jakebigham
>To: Luciano bailey
>CC: andys@fseee.org, sugahara@mac.com, obra@list.obra.org
>Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] centerline violation
>Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 16:30:01 -0700
>
>Luciano-
>I would reckon it works the way most other rule enforcement works: if you
>get caught breaking the rules you may be subject to penalty. If the police
>officer sees you failing to stop at a stop sign, he or she may write you a
>ticket. It doesn't matter if lots of other people fail to stop at that
>sign; the police saw you - not someone else. Jack Abramoff gets caught
>defrauding Native Americans and bribing public officials, does that mean
>other lobbyists are not offenders? No, it means this is the one they
>caught. Justice is not always fair- even when it works the way it is
>suppose to.
>IMHO of course, enjoy the afternoon if you can- I am stuck in my basement
>(where is the justice in that? ; ) ) -Jake Bigham
>On May 17, 2007, at 2:49 PM, Luciano bailey wrote:
>
>>In an ideal world all would play fair, if a standard of evidence is used
>>to DQ one group that groups violation may not be isolated and the
>>evidence was dependant on the shot selection of photographers. This is
>>not a defense for the offenders only a query as to how a group is deemed
>>in violation and another is not.
>>
>>
>>>From: Andy Stahl
>>>To: "Luciano bailey" ,sugahara@mac.com,
>>>obra@list.obra.org
>>>Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] centerline violation
>>>Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 09:08:04 -0700
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Luciano,
>>>
>>>
>>>There is no kind of rule violation evidence that is collected
>>>"evenly," e.g., only some racers are drug-tested; the official
>>>driving behind the pack cannot monitor evenly the entire pack for
>>>centerline violations, etc. Rule enforcement in any game or sport
>>>is intended to be a deterrent, not a scientific study. Nor is the
>>>criminal standard of irrefutable (i.e., beyond a reasonable doubt) proof
>>>appropriate to games or sports. This isn't about jailing people,
>>>it's about playing fair -- something we all should have learned in
>>>kindergarten.
>>>
>>>
>>>Andy
>>>
>>>
>>>At 03:20 AM 5/17/2007, Luciano bailey wrote:
>>>
>>>In sifting through all the
>>>dialogue on this issue the remaining case would be do we have photos of
>>>all the teams evenly and accurately captured to establish true
>>>advantage.
>>>This would require photos of every possible site where an infraction
>>>could have occured, in order to establish that kind of irrifutable
>>>proof.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>________________________________________________
>>>
>>>Andy Stahl, Executive Director
>>>
>>>Forest Service Employees for Environmental Ethics
>>>
>>>P.O. Box 11615
>>>
>>>Eugene, OR 97440
>>>
>>>(541) 484-2692, 484-3004(FAX)
>>>
>>>http://www.fseee.org
>>>
>>>Note my new email address: andys@fseee.org
>>>
>>>________________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>OBRA mailing list
>>obra@list.obra.org
>>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

Brett Boyles

I think the centerline rule should be dropped along with the rest of the rules. Let these guys ride in the left lane into oncoming traffic. Let them fill their veins with aviation gas just so they can win a cat 4/5 race and get a shiny medal.
Let the weak ones die. We need to speed up human evolution!

jakebigham

Luciano-
I would reckon it works the way most other rule enforcement works: if
you get caught breaking the rules you may be subject to penalty. If
the police officer sees you failing to stop at a stop sign, he or she
may write you a ticket. It doesn't matter if lots of other people
fail to stop at that sign; the police saw you - not someone else.
Jack Abramoff gets caught defrauding Native Americans and bribing
public officials, does that mean other lobbyists are not offenders?
No, it means this is the one they caught. Justice is not always fair-
even when it works the way it is suppose to.
IMHO of course, enjoy the afternoon if you can- I am stuck in my
basement (where is the justice in that? ; ) ) -Jake Bigham
On May 17, 2007, at 2:49 PM, Luciano bailey wrote:

> In an ideal world all would play fair, if a standard of evidence is
> used to DQ one group that groups violation may not be isolated and
> the evidence was dependant on the shot selection of photographers.
> This is not a defense for the offenders only a query as to how a
> group is deemed in violation and another is not.
>
>
>> From: Andy Stahl
>> To: "Luciano bailey" ,sugahara@mac.com,
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] centerline violation
>> Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 09:08:04 -0700
>>
>>
>>
>> Luciano,
>>
>>
>> There is no kind of rule violation evidence that is collected
>> "evenly," e.g., only some racers are drug-tested; the official
>> driving behind the pack cannot monitor evenly the entire pack for
>> centerline violations, etc. Rule enforcement in any game or sport
>> is intended to be a deterrent, not a scientific study. Nor is the
>> criminal standard of irrefutable (i.e., beyond a reasonable doubt)
>> proof
>> appropriate to games or sports. This isn't about jailing people,
>> it's about playing fair -- something we all should have learned in
>> kindergarten.
>>
>>
>> Andy
>>
>>
>> At 03:20 AM 5/17/2007, Luciano bailey wrote:
>>
>> In sifting through all the
>> dialogue on this issue the remaining case would be do we have
>> photos of
>> all the teams evenly and accurately captured to establish true
>> advantage.
>> This would require photos of every possible site where an infraction
>> could have occured, in order to establish that kind of irrifutable
>> proof.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________________________
>>
>> Andy Stahl, Executive Director
>>
>> Forest Service Employees for Environmental Ethics
>>
>> P.O. Box 11615
>>
>> Eugene, OR 97440
>>
>> (541) 484-2692, 484-3004(FAX)
>>
>> http://www.fseee.org
>>
>> Note my new email address: andys@fseee.org
>>
>> ________________________________________________
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

gschreckchat@comcast.net

Use WADA instead, have every violator tested for drugs, and have the police arrest those in violation of the drug test. One stop shopping.

--

George Schreck
gschreckchat@comcast.net
(503) 502-0425

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Raedeke, John"

I say we ask the PDX police to do a sting operation on centerline violators.

john

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Andy Stahl
Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2007 9:08 AM
To: Luciano bailey; sugahara@mac.com; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] centerline violation

Luciano,

There is no kind of rule violation evidence that is collected "evenly," e.g., only some racers are drug-tested; the official driving behind the pack cannot monitor evenly the entire pack for centerline violations, etc. Rule enforcement in any game or sport is intended to be a deterrent, not a scientific study. Nor is the criminal standard of irrefutable (i.e., beyond a reasonable doubt) proof appropriate to games or sports. This isn't about jailing people, it's about playing fair -- something we all should have learned in kindergarten.

Andy

At 03:20 AM 5/17/2007, Luciano bailey wrote:

In sifting through all the dialogue on this issue the remaining case would be do we have photos of all the teams evenly and accurately captured to establish true advantage. This would require photos of every possible site where an infraction could have occured, in order to establish that kind of irrifutable proof.

________________________________________________
Andy Stahl, Executive Director
Forest Service Employees for Environmental Ethics
P.O. Box 11615
Eugene, OR 97440
(541) 484-2692, 484-3004(FAX)
http://www.fseee.org
Note my new email address: andys@fseee.org
________________________________________________

Luciano bailey

In an ideal world all would play fair, if a standard of evidence is used to
DQ one group that groups violation may not be isolated and the evidence was
dependant on the shot selection of photographers. This is not a defense for
the offenders only a query as to how a group is deemed in violation and
another is not.

>From: Andy Stahl
>To: "Luciano bailey" ,sugahara@mac.com,
>obra@list.obra.org
>Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] centerline violation
>Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 09:08:04 -0700
>
>
>
>Luciano,
>
>
>There is no kind of rule violation evidence that is collected
>"evenly," e.g., only some racers are drug-tested; the official
>driving behind the pack cannot monitor evenly the entire pack for
>centerline violations, etc.? Rule enforcement in any game or sport
>is intended to be a deterrent, not a scientific study.? Nor is the
>criminal standard of irrefutable (i.e., beyond a reasonable doubt) proof
>appropriate to games or sports.? This isn't about jailing people,
>it's about playing fair -- something we all should have learned in
>kindergarten.
>
>
>Andy
>
>
>At 03:20 AM 5/17/2007, Luciano bailey wrote:
>
>In sifting through all the
>dialogue on this issue the remaining case would be do we have photos of
>all the teams evenly and accurately captured to establish true advantage.
>This would require photos of every possible site where an infraction
>could have occured, in order to establish that kind of irrifutable
>proof.
>
>
>
>
>________________________________________________
>
>Andy Stahl, Executive Director
>
>Forest Service Employees for Environmental Ethics
>
>P.O. Box 11615
>
>Eugene, OR? 97440
>
>(541) 484-2692, 484-3004(FAX)
>
>http://www.fseee.org
>
>Note my new email address:? andys@fseee.org?
>
>________________________________________________
>
>

Raedeke, John

I say we ask the PDX police to do a sting operation on centerline
violators.

john

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Andy Stahl
Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2007 9:08 AM
To: Luciano bailey; sugahara@mac.com; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] centerline violation

Luciano,

There is no kind of rule violation evidence that is collected "evenly,"
e.g., only some racers are drug-tested; the official driving behind the
pack cannot monitor evenly the entire pack for centerline violations,
etc. Rule enforcement in any game or sport is intended to be a
deterrent, not a scientific study. Nor is the criminal standard of
irrefutable (i.e., beyond a reasonable doubt) proof appropriate to games
or sports. This isn't about jailing people, it's about playing fair --
something we all should have learned in kindergarten.

Andy

At 03:20 AM 5/17/2007, Luciano bailey wrote:

In sifting through all the dialogue on this issue the remaining case
would be do we have photos of all the teams evenly and accurately
captured to establish true advantage. This would require photos of every
possible site where an infraction could have occured, in order to
establish that kind of irrifutable proof.

________________________________________________
Andy Stahl, Executive Director
Forest Service Employees for Environmental Ethics
P.O. Box 11615
Eugene, OR 97440
(541) 484-2692, 484-3004(FAX)
http://www.fseee.org
Note my new email address: andys@fseee.org
________________________________________________

Andy Stahl

Luciano,


There is no kind of rule violation evidence that is collected
"evenly," e.g., only some racers are drug-tested; the official
driving behind the pack cannot monitor evenly the entire pack for
centerline violations, etc.  Rule enforcement in any game or sport
is intended to be a deterrent, not a scientific study.  Nor is the
criminal standard of irrefutable (i.e., beyond a reasonable doubt) proof
appropriate to games or sports.  This isn't about jailing people,
it's about playing fair -- something we all should have learned in
kindergarten.


Andy


At 03:20 AM 5/17/2007, Luciano bailey wrote:

In sifting through all the
dialogue on this issue the remaining case would be do we have photos of
all the teams evenly and accurately captured to establish true advantage.
This would require photos of every possible site where an infraction
could have occured, in order to establish that kind of irrifutable
proof.

________________________________________________

Andy Stahl, Executive Director

Forest Service Employees for Environmental Ethics

P.O. Box 11615

Eugene, OR  97440

(541) 484-2692, 484-3004(FAX)

http://www.fseee.org

Note my new email address:  andys@fseee.org 

________________________________________________

Luciano bailey

In sifting through all the dialogue on this issue the remaining case would
be do we have photos of all the teams evenly and accurately captured to
establish true advantage. This would require photos of every possible site
where an infraction could have occured, in order to establish that kind of
irrifutable proof.

>From: "T. Kenji Sugahara"
>To: Andy Stahl
>CC: obra@list.obra.org
>Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] centerline violation
>Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 11:17:55 -0700
>
>I think Andy has hit it on the head. Great analysis.
>
>
>On May 15, 2007, at 9:46 AM, Andy Stahl wrote:
>
> > Candi,
> >
> > It is my understanding that a disqualification or other penalty can
> > result from two different processes -- 1) as a result of a racer's
> > protest; or, 2) as a result of an official's decision based upon
> > evidence. The 15-minute rule applies only to the first process,
> > not to the second. Performance enhancing drug use would be an
> > example of the second process at work, as drug use could never be
> > effectively dissuaded through the protest process with its 15-
> > minute requirement.
> >
> > The TTT photographs are much like a drug test. They are evidence
> > of a rule violation that should be acted upon by race officials.
> > The fact that a protest was also filed is irrelevant. I would deny
> > the protest (citing the 15-minute rule), but penalize all the
> > center-line offending teams for which evidence exists using the
> > official's inherent power to do so.
> >
> > As for what constitutes a centerline violation, the arguments
> > regarding the marshaled corners are persuasive, as are the
> > arguments regarding the start line and emergency avoidance of
> > fallen cyclists. However, the corner cutting in the middle of the
> > straight sections is centerline violation in its purest form.
> >
> > Andy
> >
> > ________________________________________________
> > Andy Stahl, Executive Director
> > Forest Service Employees for Environmental Ethics
> > P.O. Box 11615
> > Eugene, OR 97440
> > (541) 484-2692, 484-3004(FAX)
> > http://www.fseee.org
> > Note my new email address: andys@fseee.org
> > ________________________________________________
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>_______________________________________________
>OBRA mailing list
>obra@list.obra.org
>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Luciano bailey

I think the difference might be the thret of fatality involved in
centerlines violations which I believe prompted the rule in the first place.
Not to minimize the risk involved in the no hands scenario but the chances
of catstrophic aaccident are far less.

>From: Dave
>To: obra@list.obra.org
>Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] centerline violation
>Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 13:56:08 -0700
>
>Here's one for you-
>
>What about that rule where you have to have both hands on the bars when you
>cross the finish line? An examination of pictures from just about any RR
>this rear will show riders with both hands in the air. Maybe I'm off base
>but I thought that was an instant DQ (not Dairy Queen you starved skinny
>climbers).
>
>Dave
>
>
>
>
>Subject: Re: centerline violation
>Date: 05/15/2007 01:45 PM
>From: gschreckch..@comcast.net
> Excellent analysis and summary.
>
>--
>
>George Schreck
>gschreckchat@comcast.net
>(503) 502-0425
>
>-------------- Original message --------------
>From: Andy Stahl
>Candi,
>
>It is my understanding that a disqualification or other penalty can result
>from two different processes -- 1) as a result of a racer's protest; or, 2)
>as a result of an official's decision based upon evidence. The 15-minute
>rule applies only to the first process, not to the second. Performance
>enhancing drug use would be an example of the second process at work, as
>drug use could never be effectively dissuaded through the protest process
>with its 15-minute requirement.
>
>The TTT photographs are much like a drug test. They are evidence of a rule
>violation that should be acted upon by race officials. The fact that a
>protest was also filed is irrelevant. I would deny the protest (citing the
>15-minute rule), but penalize all the center-line offending teams for which
>evidence exists using the official's inherent power to do so.
>
>As for what constitutes a centerline violation, the arguments regarding the
>marshaled corners are persuasive, as are the arguments regarding the start
>line and emergency avoidance of fallen cyclists. However, the corner
>cutting in the middle of the straight sections is centerline violation in
>its purest form.
>
>Andy
>
>________________________________________________
>Andy Stahl, Executive Director
>Forest Service Employees for Environmental Ethics
>P.O. Box 11615
>Eugene, OR 97440
>(541) 484-2692, 484-3004(FAX)
>http://www.fseee.org
>Note my new email address: andys@fseee.org
>________________________________________________
>
>_______________________________________________
>OBRA mailing list
>obra@list.obra.org
>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Luciano bailey

Why question a violation would these same riders look at themselves in the
mirror knowing they attempted to gain an unfair advantage thus skewing the
true results. This is a sportsmanship issue, race hard, race fair and let
the outcome be the outcome. Similar complaints arise with riders who fail to
neutralize, the protests from riders never cease to amaze me given that
their only perspective is biased, the camera as with an official are
unbiased. This is a case of racers knowing they were in violation,
expecting not to be caught

>From: "T. Kenji Sugahara"
>To: Andy Stahl
>CC: obra@list.obra.org
>Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] centerline violation
>Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 11:17:55 -0700
>
>I think Andy has hit it on the head. Great analysis.
>
>
>On May 15, 2007, at 9:46 AM, Andy Stahl wrote:
>
> > Candi,
> >
> > It is my understanding that a disqualification or other penalty can
> > result from two different processes -- 1) as a result of a racer's
> > protest; or, 2) as a result of an official's decision based upon
> > evidence. The 15-minute rule applies only to the first process,
> > not to the second. Performance enhancing drug use would be an
> > example of the second process at work, as drug use could never be
> > effectively dissuaded through the protest process with its 15-
> > minute requirement.
> >
> > The TTT photographs are much like a drug test. They are evidence
> > of a rule violation that should be acted upon by race officials.
> > The fact that a protest was also filed is irrelevant. I would deny
> > the protest (citing the 15-minute rule), but penalize all the
> > center-line offending teams for which evidence exists using the
> > official's inherent power to do so.
> >
> > As for what constitutes a centerline violation, the arguments
> > regarding the marshaled corners are persuasive, as are the
> > arguments regarding the start line and emergency avoidance of
> > fallen cyclists. However, the corner cutting in the middle of the
> > straight sections is centerline violation in its purest form.
> >
> > Andy
> >
> > ________________________________________________
> > Andy Stahl, Executive Director
> > Forest Service Employees for Environmental Ethics
> > P.O. Box 11615
> > Eugene, OR 97440
> > (541) 484-2692, 484-3004(FAX)
> > http://www.fseee.org
> > Note my new email address: andys@fseee.org
> > ________________________________________________
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>_______________________________________________
>OBRA mailing list
>obra@list.obra.org
>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Mike Murray

I don't believe that there is an OBRA rule requiring you to have your hands
on the bars for finishes.

Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Dave
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 13:56 PM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] centerline violation

Here's one for you-

What about that rule where you have to have both hands on the bars when you
cross the finish line? An examination of pictures from just about any RR
this rear will show riders with both hands in the air. Maybe I'm off base
but I thought that was an instant DQ (not Dairy Queen you starved skinny
climbers).

Dave

Subject: Re: centerline violation
Date: 05/15/2007 01:45 PM
From: gschreckch..@comcast.net
Excellent analysis and summary.

--

George Schreck
gschreckchat@comcast.net
(503) 502-0425

-------------- Original message --------------
From: Andy Stahl
Candi,

It is my understanding that a disqualification or other penalty can result
from two different processes -- 1) as a result of a racer's protest; or, 2)
as a result of an official's decision based upon evidence. The 15-minute
rule applies only to the first process, not to the second. Performance
enhancing drug use would be an example of the second process at work, as
drug use could never be effectively dissuaded through the protest process
with its 15-minute requirement.

The TTT photographs are much like a drug test. They are evidence of a rule
violation that should be acted upon by race officials. The fact that a
protest was also filed is irrelevant. I would deny the protest (citing the
15-minute rule), but penalize all the center-line offending teams for which
evidence exists using the official's inherent power to do so.

As for what constitutes a centerline violation, the arguments regarding the
marshaled corners are persuasive, as are the arguments regarding the start
line and emergency avoidance of fallen cyclists. However, the corner cutting
in the middle of the straight sections is centerline violation in its purest
form.

Andy

________________________________________________
Andy Stahl, Executive Director
Forest Service Employees for Environmental Ethics
P.O. Box 11615
Eugene, OR 97440
(541) 484-2692, 484-3004(FAX)
http://www.fseee.org
Note my new email address: andys@fseee.org
________________________________________________

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Dave

Here's one for you-

What about that rule where you have to have both hands on the bars when you cross the finish line? An examination of pictures from just about any RR this rear will show riders with both hands in the air. Maybe I'm off base but I thought that was an instant DQ (not Dairy Queen you starved skinny climbers).

Dave

Subject: Re: centerline violation
Date: 05/15/2007 01:45 PM
From: gschreckch..@comcast.net
Excellent analysis and summary.

--

George Schreck
gschreckchat@comcast.net
(503) 502-0425

-------------- Original message --------------
From: Andy Stahl
Candi,

It is my understanding that a disqualification or other penalty can result from two different processes -- 1) as a result of a racer's protest; or, 2) as a result of an official's decision based upon evidence. The 15-minute rule applies only to the first process, not to the second. Performance enhancing drug use would be an example of the second process at work, as drug use could never be effectively dissuaded through the protest process with its 15-minute requirement.

The TTT photographs are much like a drug test. They are evidence of a rule violation that should be acted upon by race officials. The fact that a protest was also filed is irrelevant. I would deny the protest (citing the 15-minute rule), but penalize all the center-line offending teams for which evidence exists using the official's inherent power to do so.

As for what constitutes a centerline violation, the arguments regarding the marshaled corners are persuasive, as are the arguments regarding the start line and emergency avoidance of fallen cyclists. However, the corner cutting in the middle of the straight sections is centerline violation in its purest form.

Andy

________________________________________________
Andy Stahl, Executive Director
Forest Service Employees for Environmental Ethics
P.O. Box 11615
Eugene, OR 97440
(541) 484-2692, 484-3004(FAX)
http://www.fseee.org
Note my new email address: andys@fseee.org
________________________________________________

gschreckchat@comcast.net

Excellent analysis and summary.

--

George Schreck
gschreckchat@comcast.net
(503) 502-0425

-------------- Original message --------------
From: Andy Stahl
Candi,

It is my understanding that a disqualification or other penalty can result from two different processes -- 1) as a result of a racer's protest; or, 2) as a result of an official's decision based upon evidence. The 15-minute rule applies only to the first process, not to the second. Performance enhancing drug use would be an example of the second process at work, as drug use could never be effectively dissuaded through the protest process with its 15-minute requirement.

The TTT photographs are much like a drug test. They are evidence of a rule violation that should be acted upon by race officials. The fact that a protest was also filed is irrelevant. I would deny the protest (citing the 15-minute rule), but penalize all the center-line offending teams for which evidence exists using the official's inherent power to do so.

As for what constitutes a centerline violation, the arguments regarding the marshaled corners are persuasive, as are the arguments regarding the start line and emergency avoidance of fallen cyclists. However, the corner cutting in the middle of the straight sections is centerline violation in its purest form.

Andy

________________________________________________
Andy Stahl, Executive Director
Forest Service Employees for Environmental Ethics
P.O. Box 11615
Eugene, OR 97440
(541) 484-2692, 484-3004(FAX)
http://www.fseee.org
Note my new email address: andys@fseee.org
________________________________________________

T. Kenji Sugahara

I think Andy has hit it on the head. Great analysis.

On May 15, 2007, at 9:46 AM, Andy Stahl wrote:

> Candi,
>
> It is my understanding that a disqualification or other penalty can
> result from two different processes -- 1) as a result of a racer's
> protest; or, 2) as a result of an official's decision based upon
> evidence. The 15-minute rule applies only to the first process,
> not to the second. Performance enhancing drug use would be an
> example of the second process at work, as drug use could never be
> effectively dissuaded through the protest process with its 15-
> minute requirement.
>
> The TTT photographs are much like a drug test. They are evidence
> of a rule violation that should be acted upon by race officials.
> The fact that a protest was also filed is irrelevant. I would deny
> the protest (citing the 15-minute rule), but penalize all the
> center-line offending teams for which evidence exists using the
> official's inherent power to do so.
>
> As for what constitutes a centerline violation, the arguments
> regarding the marshaled corners are persuasive, as are the
> arguments regarding the start line and emergency avoidance of
> fallen cyclists. However, the corner cutting in the middle of the
> straight sections is centerline violation in its purest form.
>
> Andy
>
> ________________________________________________
> Andy Stahl, Executive Director
> Forest Service Employees for Environmental Ethics
> P.O. Box 11615
> Eugene, OR 97440
> (541) 484-2692, 484-3004(FAX)
> http://www.fseee.org
> Note my new email address: andys@fseee.org
> ________________________________________________
>
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> obra@list.obra.org
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Andy Stahl

Candi,


It is my understanding that a disqualification or other penalty can
result from two different processes -- 1) as a result of a racer's
protest; or, 2) as a result of an official's decision based upon
evidence.  The 15-minute rule applies only to the first process, not
to the second.  Performance enhancing drug use would be an example
of the second process at work, as drug use could never be effectively
dissuaded through the protest process with its 15-minute
requirement.


The TTT photographs are much like a drug test.  They are evidence of
a rule violation that should be acted upon by race officials.  The
fact that a protest was also filed is irrelevant.  I would deny the
protest (citing the 15-minute rule), but penalize all the center-line
offending teams for which evidence exists using the official's inherent
power to do so.


As for what constitutes a centerline violation, the arguments regarding
the marshaled corners are persuasive, as are the arguments regarding the
start line and emergency avoidance of fallen cyclists.  However, the
corner cutting in the middle of the straight sections is centerline
violation in its purest form.


Andy

________________________________________________

Andy Stahl, Executive Director

Forest Service Employees for Environmental Ethics

P.O. Box 11615

Eugene, OR  97440

(541) 484-2692, 484-3004(FAX)

http://www.fseee.org

Note my new email address:  andys@fseee.org 

________________________________________________