Mike Murray

I agree that the penalties for centerline need to be modified and I will be
submitting that rule.

Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Ron Frerichs
Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2007 12:07 PM
To: cmurray@obra.org; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] FW: TTT Resolution

I just want to comment on one point from below as it relates to all races.

The rules for road races state, "When using open roads with a centerline,
all riders must stay to the right of the centerline or another point on the
road designated by the Chief Referee."

The penalty for failure to obey this rule is:
1st offense = warning
2nd offense = disqualification
(By the way, in a stage race, you get 4 warnings with escalating time
penalties before DQ. Not sure I agree with that.)

The referee shouldn't tell me I've used my warning before I even get on my
bike. If OBRA has decided that the 1st offense should be disqualification,
then change the penalty structure. If you're thinking of adding the "first
warning" comment to every pre-race instructions, then a change seems even
more appropriate.

Maybe rather than: 1st offense, 2nd offense...the wording could be:
incidental offense (getting bumped over = warning), flagrant offense
(advancing your position = DQ).

Anyway, I think the key is consistent enforcement. If every case were
penalized, that would have more impact than the ceremonial pre-race
scolding.

And here's the obligatory...please don't flame me, I love the referees,
they're wonderful people doing the best they can and making it possible for
us to do what we do, if more people were like Steve Scarich-the world would
be a better place, yadda, yadda, yadda...

Ron

From: "Candi Murray"
Reply-To: cmurray@obra.org
To:
Subject: [OBRA Chat] FW: TTT Resolution
Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 10:50:08 -0700

As you are aware there was a protest about the TTT. The following is how
this will be resolved.

The OBRA rules for protests is:
"12.3 Protests concerning incidents during the race will be presented to the
Chief Referee in writing and accompanied by a fee of $10, which will be
forwarded to OBRA. They must be submitted within 15 minutes of the
protester's finish"

As this protest was well past the 15 minute period and was not accompanied
by the fee there is no mandated review required. This does point out a
weakness in the rules, as in this case the protesting team could not have
had any knowledge of the incident within the proscribed time. This weakness
should be addresses with a change in rules during the next cycle of rule
changes.

There is a similar issue with the following rule:
"12.5 Any protest about the order of finish must be lodged within 15 minutes
of posting."

The advent of the internet has changed the practice to results primarily
done electronically and not posted at the event. We need to develop a rule
that reflects the changing practice.

Regardless of the protest issue, officials may change results based on the
following rules: "15.1.2 Unless instructed by the Chief Referee, all riders
must stay to the right of the centerline"

"11.1 No rider shall benefit from his or her misconduct. No team shall
benefit from its misconduct, or the misconduct of one of its members."

The rules do not currently have a requirement for a protest or a limitation
on the time frame when these changes may occur.

I asked for input from the Board of Directors and was advised to disqualify
all riders where there was evidence of centerline violations, not just the
team that was identified. However, I find that there were discrepancies in
reports regarding the starting instructions and cannot determine that
permission was not definitively or tacitly given. Therefore I will not be
disqualifying any teams. The results as posted will stand.

There needs to be standardized instructions that the official use. I will be
working on a checklist that can be handed out and followed so that the
pertinent items are covered and not left to interpretation.

Riders need to be aware of the rules. There should have been no assumption
that cutting corners and going over the centerline would ever be condoned.
The argument "I was not told" is bogus and insulting. Attention to
centerline rule is particularly important, not only for rider safety but
also to preserve our ability to obtain road use permits for races on open
roads. The posted pictures on multiple riders over the centerline could be
used to deny future race permits even if there are no collision or traffic
incidents.

Candi

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Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

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gschreckchat@comcast.net

Actually, in the road races in which I have participated, we have been given our first warning before we get in the bike. The referees have been clear that our first warning was at the start, and that the first infraction is an immediate disqualification. Whether or not you agree with it the appproach, there has been consistency.

--

George Schreck
gschreckchat@comcast.net
(503) 502-0425

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Ron Frerichs"

> I just want to comment on one point from below as it relates to all races.
>
> The rules for road races state, "When using open roads with a centerline,
> all riders must stay to the right of the centerline or another point on the
> road designated by the Chief Referee."
>
> The penalty for failure to obey this rule is:
> 1st offense = warning
> 2nd offense = disqualification
> (By the way, in a stage race, you get 4 warnings with escalating time
> penalties before DQ. Not sure I agree with that.)
>
> The referee shouldn't tell me I've used my warning before I even get on my
> bike. If OBRA has decided that the 1st offense should be disqualification,
> then change the penalty structure. If you're thinking of adding the "first
> warning" comment to every pre-race instructions, then a change seems even
> more appropriate.
>
> Maybe rather than: 1st offense, 2nd offense...the wording could be:
> incidental offense (getting bumped over = warning), flagrant offense
> (advancing your position = DQ).
>
> Anyway, I think the key is consistent enforcement. If every case were
> penalized, that would have more impact than the ceremonial pre-race
> scolding.
>
> And here's the obligatory...please don't flame me, I love the referees,
> they're wonderful people doing the best they can and making it possible for
> us to do what we do, if more people were like Steve Scarich-the world would
> be a better place, yadda, yadda, yadda...
>
> Ron
>
>
>
> From: "Candi Murray"
> Reply-To: cmurray@obra.org
> To:
> Subject: [OBRA Chat] FW: TTT Resolution
> Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 10:50:08 -0700
>
>
>
>
> As you are aware there was a protest about the TTT. The following is how
> this will be resolved.
>
> The OBRA rules for protests is:
> "12.3 Protests concerning incidents during the race will be presented to the
> Chief Referee in writing and accompanied by a fee of $10, which will be
> forwarded to OBRA. They must be submitted within 15 minutes of the
> protester's finish"
>
> As this protest was well past the 15 minute period and was not accompanied
> by the fee there is no mandated review required. This does point out a
> weakness in the rules, as in this case the protesting team could not have
> had any knowledge of the incident within the proscribed time. This weakness
> should be addresses with a change in rules during the next cycle of rule
> changes.
>
> There is a similar issue with the following rule:
> "12.5 Any protest about the order of finish must be lodged within 15 minutes
> of posting."
>
> The advent of the internet has changed the practice to results primarily
> done electronically and not posted at the event. We need to develop a rule
> that reflects the changing practice.
>
> Regardless of the protest issue, officials may change results based on the
> following rules:
> "15.1.2 Unless instructed by the Chief Referee, all riders must stay to the
> right of the centerline"
>
> "11.1 No rider shall benefit from his or her misconduct. No team shall
> benefit from its misconduct, or the misconduct of one of its members."
>
> The rules do not currently have a requirement for a protest or a limitation
> on the time frame when these changes may occur.
>
> I asked for input from the Board of Directors and was advised to disqualify
> all riders where there was evidence of centerline violations, not just the
> team that was identified. However, I find that there were discrepancies in
> reports regarding the starting instructions and cannot determine that
> permission was not definitively or tacitly given. Therefore I will not be
> disqualifying any teams. The results as posted will stand.
>
> There needs to be standardized instructions that the official use. I will be
> working on a checklist that can be handed out and followed so that the
> pertinent items are covered and not left to interpretation.
>
> Riders need to be aware of the rules. There should have been no assumption
> that cutting corners and going over the centerline would ever be condoned.
> The argument "I was not told" is bogus and insulting. Attention to
> centerline rule is particularly important, not only for rider safety but
> also to preserve our ability to obtain road use permits for races on open
> roads. The posted pictures on multiple riders over the centerline could be
> used to deny future race permits even if there are no collision or traffic
> incidents.
>
> Candi
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Like the way Microsoft Office Outlook works? You?ll love Windows Live
> Hotmail.
> http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM
> _mini_outlook_0507
>

Ron Frerichs

I just want to comment on one point from below as it relates to all races.

The rules for road races state, "When using open roads with a centerline,
all riders must stay to the right of the centerline or another point on the
road designated by the Chief Referee."

The penalty for failure to obey this rule is:
1st offense = warning
2nd offense = disqualification
(By the way, in a stage race, you get 4 warnings with escalating time
penalties before DQ. Not sure I agree with that.)

The referee shouldn't tell me I've used my warning before I even get on my
bike. If OBRA has decided that the 1st offense should be disqualification,
then change the penalty structure. If you're thinking of adding the "first
warning" comment to every pre-race instructions, then a change seems even
more appropriate.

Maybe rather than: 1st offense, 2nd offense...the wording could be:
incidental offense (getting bumped over = warning), flagrant offense
(advancing your position = DQ).

Anyway, I think the key is consistent enforcement. If every case were
penalized, that would have more impact than the ceremonial pre-race
scolding.

And here's the obligatory...please don't flame me, I love the referees,
they're wonderful people doing the best they can and making it possible for
us to do what we do, if more people were like Steve Scarich-the world would
be a better place, yadda, yadda, yadda...

Ron

From: "Candi Murray"
Reply-To: cmurray@obra.org
To:
Subject: [OBRA Chat] FW: TTT Resolution
Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 10:50:08 -0700

As you are aware there was a protest about the TTT. The following is how
this will be resolved.

The OBRA rules for protests is:
"12.3 Protests concerning incidents during the race will be presented to the
Chief Referee in writing and accompanied by a fee of $10, which will be
forwarded to OBRA. They must be submitted within 15 minutes of the
protester's finish"

As this protest was well past the 15 minute period and was not accompanied
by the fee there is no mandated review required. This does point out a
weakness in the rules, as in this case the protesting team could not have
had any knowledge of the incident within the proscribed time. This weakness
should be addresses with a change in rules during the next cycle of rule
changes.

There is a similar issue with the following rule:
"12.5 Any protest about the order of finish must be lodged within 15 minutes
of posting."

The advent of the internet has changed the practice to results primarily
done electronically and not posted at the event. We need to develop a rule
that reflects the changing practice.

Regardless of the protest issue, officials may change results based on the
following rules:
"15.1.2 Unless instructed by the Chief Referee, all riders must stay to the
right of the centerline"

"11.1 No rider shall benefit from his or her misconduct. No team shall
benefit from its misconduct, or the misconduct of one of its members."

The rules do not currently have a requirement for a protest or a limitation
on the time frame when these changes may occur.

I asked for input from the Board of Directors and was advised to disqualify
all riders where there was evidence of centerline violations, not just the
team that was identified. However, I find that there were discrepancies in
reports regarding the starting instructions and cannot determine that
permission was not definitively or tacitly given. Therefore I will not be
disqualifying any teams. The results as posted will stand.

There needs to be standardized instructions that the official use. I will be
working on a checklist that can be handed out and followed so that the
pertinent items are covered and not left to interpretation.

Riders need to be aware of the rules. There should have been no assumption
that cutting corners and going over the centerline would ever be condoned.
The argument "I was not told" is bogus and insulting. Attention to
centerline rule is particularly important, not only for rider safety but
also to preserve our ability to obtain road use permits for races on open
roads. The posted pictures on multiple riders over the centerline could be
used to deny future race permits even if there are no collision or traffic
incidents.

Candi

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_________________________________________________________________
Like the way Microsoft Office Outlook works? You?ll love Windows Live
Hotmail.
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Candi Murray

As you are aware there was a protest about the TTT. The following is how
this will be resolved.

The OBRA rules for protests is:
"12.3 Protests concerning incidents during the race will be presented to the
Chief Referee in writing and accompanied by a fee of $10, which will be
forwarded to OBRA. They must be submitted within 15 minutes of the
protester's finish"

As this protest was well past the 15 minute period and was not accompanied
by the fee there is no mandated review required. This does point out a
weakness in the rules, as in this case the protesting team could not have
had any knowledge of the incident within the proscribed time. This weakness
should be addresses with a change in rules during the next cycle of rule
changes.

There is a similar issue with the following rule:
"12.5 Any protest about the order of finish must be lodged within 15 minutes
of posting."

The advent of the internet has changed the practice to results primarily
done electronically and not posted at the event. We need to develop a rule
that reflects the changing practice.

Regardless of the protest issue, officials may change results based on the
following rules:
"15.1.2 Unless instructed by the Chief Referee, all riders must stay to the
right of the centerline"

"11.1 No rider shall benefit from his or her misconduct. No team shall
benefit from its misconduct, or the misconduct of one of its members."

The rules do not currently have a requirement for a protest or a limitation
on the time frame when these changes may occur.

I asked for input from the Board of Directors and was advised to disqualify
all riders where there was evidence of centerline violations, not just the
team that was identified. However, I find that there were discrepancies in
reports regarding the starting instructions and cannot determine that
permission was not definitively or tacitly given. Therefore I will not be
disqualifying any teams. The results as posted will stand.

There needs to be standardized instructions that the official use. I will be
working on a checklist that can be handed out and followed so that the
pertinent items are covered and not left to interpretation.

Riders need to be aware of the rules. There should have been no assumption
that cutting corners and going over the centerline would ever be condoned.
The argument "I was not told" is bogus and insulting. Attention to
centerline rule is particularly important, not only for rider safety but
also to preserve our ability to obtain road use permits for races on open
roads. The posted pictures on multiple riders over the centerline could be
used to deny future race permits even if there are no collision or traffic
incidents.

Candi