Senior women fields

Long, Steve

2007-05-25

I agree with Heather about racing being competitive. It sort of begs the
question, "if you don't want to be competitive, why are you racing?"

Riders can get caught in a sort of no man's (women's) land when they get
too strong for the typical local club rider and yet not quite strong
enough to race effectively. In this scenario, I can see the point of
some of the women that aren't putting a bigger focus on training and yet
still would like to race.

We looked at the numbers for our crit, "The Vancouver Courthouse Crit"
and they certainly do not support breaking the women out into seperate
fields. The numbers may support breaking them out (as Renata suggested)
in the earlier season races, but, if you ladies don't come out and race,
you're not going to get what you want. If the fields are too hard,
perhaps training more efficiently would be part of the answer. If the
stronger cat 1/2 racers don't like racing with the cat 4 women, it sort
of begs the question, "why not just drop them, at least until we can get
the numbers up?"

We, here at North River Racing have toyed with the idea of putting on a
women's specific skills transfer clinic or two. If any of you women out
there would be interested in participating in such a clinic, perhaps you
could e-mail me off list and we'll try and coordinate this with some of
the women on our team.
Some of the skills we might be able to transfer include,
efficient pacing linning,
efficient climbing,
Pedal stroke mechanics,
efficient training,
winter preperation.
attacking,
etc.

Just some thoughts, none of which is meant to anger anyone. I'm all
about finding solutions...

Steve

________________________________

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Heather VanValkenburg
Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 6:38 AM
To: Luciano bailey; cmurray@obra.org; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Senior women fields

"Why do you race with the men.....What, are you just too good for
us...?"

No

I'd like to chime in. Although I focus my efforts on the track and
rarely do road racing anymore, I can share why some women choose to race
with the men during the week nights. (i.e. PIR, Alpenrose)

1. Part of it is to get the most bang for our buck. Jeff allows us to
race on a smaller buck. Might I have just jeopardized this luxury in the
future? Yes. But it is a fact. Should I race 12 laps for $12 or 20 laps
for $10. Granted I've only gotten 2.5 laps completed on a Tuesday this
year, but that is another story...

2. Sorry ladies, but you like to chat. A lot. I don't like to talk when
I'm racing. I don't like to listen when I'm racing. I want to be
challenged to pay attention to what is happening in the race. I"m out
there to have someone kick my ass and if I"m working hard enough, I
don't have oxygen to chit chat. The men don't do us any favors. If we
want a wheel, we best be aggressive and get it. If we can't keep a
wheel, they come around us tight and don't care what chromosomes we
have. I know I'm going to get hell for this one, but trust me, I will
get emails from some of you thanking me for speaking what you're
thinking.

3. I've seen the comment along the lines of, "many of us just want to
ride our bike and are not really competitive." RACING is competitive and
many of us are training for races outside of OBRA. These races are
harder and longer. There are constant attacks, teams at work, and
ruthless behavior. We ride with the men because they are harder and
longer- There are constant attacks, teams at work, and ruthless
behavior.

All that said, I agree that it's unfortunate that the numbers are low.
Many senior women I raced with 3-4 years ago have moved, started
families, are taking time away from racing, or have otherwise gotten
caught up in life. I don't have a solution to the problem. I'm a bit
out of the road racing loop. I just wanted to answer the question many
have about a possible why.

-Heather VanValkenburg

Does this bike make my butt look fast?

________________________________

________________________________

> From: rideon1@hotmail.com
> To: cmurray@obra.org; obra@list.obra.org
> Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 08:19:20 +0000
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Senior women fields
>
> I second the call for lady racers, tonight I had the pleasure of
watching 9
> women riding in a paceline outside of AVC this is a rare sight. For
womens
> racing and especially those young girls out there saying maybe me
there is
> no better marketing tool than numbers and visibility. We also have
some very
> talented junior women that could benefit by benevolent mentorship.
Dont let
> the velodrome scare you over the last couple of years many typically
road
> racers have added great speed out at the track and done well.
>
>
> >From: "Candi Murray"
> >Reply-To: cmurray@obra.org
> >To:
> >Subject: [OBRA Chat] Senior women fields
> >Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 10:59:23 -0700
> >
> >Three rivers had 2 women show up
> >Swan Island had 4 women show up.
> >These races cancelled their women's field.
> >Minimum field size is 5. Unless you want to see racing for senior
women to
> >go away, it is time you showed up.
> >Silverton is this weekend.
> >
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >OBRA mailing list
> >obra@list.obra.org
> >http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> >Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

________________________________

Download Messenger. Start an i'm conversation. Support a cause. Join
Now!


Heather VanValkenburg

2007-05-25

"Why do you race with the men.....What, are you just too good for us...?"NoI'd like to chime in. Although I focus my efforts on the track and rarely do road racing anymore, I can share why some women choose to race with the men during the week nights. (i.e. PIR, Alpenrose)1. Part of it is to get the most bang for our buck. Jeff allows us to race on a smaller buck. Might I have just jeopardized this luxury in the future? Yes. But it is a fact. Should I race 12 laps for $12 or 20 laps for $10. Granted I've only gotten 2.5 laps completed on a Tuesday this year, but that is another story...2. Sorry ladies, but you like to chat. A lot. I don't like to talk when I'm racing. I don't like to listen when I'm racing. I want to be challenged to pay attention to what is happening in the race. I"m out there to have someone kick my ass and if I"m working hard enough, I don't have oxygen to chit chat. The men don't do us any favors. If we want a wheel, we best be aggressive and get it. If we can't keep a wheel, they come around us tight and don't care what chromosomes we have. I know I'm going to get hell for this one, but trust me, I will get emails from some of you thanking me for speaking what you're thinking.3. I've seen the comment along the lines of, "many of us just want to ride our bike and are not really competitive." RACING is competitive and many of us are training for races outside of OBRA. These races are harder and longer. There are constant attacks, teams at work, and ruthless behavior. We ride with the men because they are harder and longer- There are constant attacks, teams at work, and ruthless behavior.All that said, I agree that it's unfortunate that the numbers are low. Many senior women I raced with 3-4 years ago have moved, started families, are taking time away from racing, or have otherwise gotten caught up in life. I don't have a solution to the problem. I'm a bit out of the road racing loop. I just wanted to answer the question many have about a possible why.-Heather VanValkenburg Does this bike make my butt look fast?
> From: rideon1@hotmail.com> To: cmurray@obra.org; obra@list.obra.org> Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 08:19:20 +0000> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Senior women fields> > I second the call for lady racers, tonight I had the pleasure of watching 9 > women riding in a paceline outside of AVC this is a rare sight. For womens > racing and especially those young girls out there saying maybe me there is > no better marketing tool than numbers and visibility. We also have some very > talented junior women that could benefit by benevolent mentorship. Dont let > the velodrome scare you over the last couple of years many typically road > racers have added great speed out at the track and done well.> > > >From: "Candi Murray" > >Reply-To: cmurray@obra.org> >To: > >Subject: [OBRA Chat] Senior women fields> >Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 10:59:23 -0700> >> >Three rivers had 2 women show up> >Swan Island had 4 women show up.> >These races cancelled their women's field.> >Minimum field size is 5. Unless you want to see racing for senior women to> >go away, it is time you showed up.> >Silverton is this weekend.> >> >> >> >_______________________________________________> >OBRA mailing list> >obra@list.obra.org> >http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra> >Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org> > > _______________________________________________> OBRA mailing list> obra@list.obra.org> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
_________________________________________________________________
Download Messenger. Start an i’m conversation. Support a cause. Join now.
http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGWL_MAY07


Luciano bailey

2007-05-25

I second the call for lady racers, tonight I had the pleasure of watching 9
women riding in a paceline outside of AVC this is a rare sight. For womens
racing and especially those young girls out there saying maybe me there is
no better marketing tool than numbers and visibility. We also have some very
talented junior women that could benefit by benevolent mentorship. Dont let
the velodrome scare you over the last couple of years many typically road
racers have added great speed out at the track and done well.

>From: "Candi Murray"
>Reply-To: cmurray@obra.org
>To:
>Subject: [OBRA Chat] Senior women fields
>Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 10:59:23 -0700
>
>Three rivers had 2 women show up
>Swan Island had 4 women show up.
>These races cancelled their women's field.
>Minimum field size is 5. Unless you want to see racing for senior women to
>go away, it is time you showed up.
>Silverton is this weekend.
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>OBRA mailing list
>obra@list.obra.org
>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


Pam Reid

2007-05-24

I agree with Renata. Put the master women with the Cat 1,2,3 women. I want to be with experienced racers even if I get dropped. Pam

Renata Hahn wrote: I believe there are a lot of women that are in the
Master's category that love to race, but will not come
out when they are put with the large Cat4 beginner
women's field. I am for one. Why not put us with the
Cat3 women's field (since most are probably Cat3's, or
should be anyway)??? Wouldn't that make sense?

I know Cherry Pie was very scary with the Cat 4's, yet
the Cat 3's had hardly any in it, I didn't do Piece of
cake or Swan Island, or King's valley, or Banna belt
or any other race because there either was no master's
women's category, or there was, but it was with the
Cat4's. I think there would be more master's women
coming out if you put us with the 3's.

My 2C's worth.

Renata Hahn, Team Rose City

--- Candi Murray wrote:

> Three rivers had 2 women show up
> Swan Island had 4 women show up.
> These races cancelled their women's field.
> Minimum field size is 5. Unless you want to see
> racing for senior women to
> go away, it is time you showed up.
> Silverton is this weekend.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

____________________________________________________________________________________
Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.
http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


---------------------------------
Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.


gschreckchat@comcast.net

2007-05-24

It is a chicken and egg issue. If you boycott races you never will have your own race. First you have to show up at races to demonstate there are sufficient numbers to have your own race. A promoter is not going to create a race on your supposition that people will come. There was no 50+ race until enough 50+ racers showed up in Masters races to demonstrate that there was a reason to have a 50+ race. If the 50+ racers had boycotted racing until there were 50+ races, the races probably would not have existed. Staying home does nothing for women's racing as your absence has no effect whatsoever other than to suggest there are not sufficietn numbers of women. It is not as if anyone is keeping a list of those who stay home.

--

George Schreck
gschreckchat@comcast.net
(503) 502-0425

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Long, Steve"

> Renata,
>
> Are you saying that you think there would be better numbers if the
> categories where as follows?
>
> Women cat 1/2
> Women cat 3 / Master's scored seperately (perhaps)
> Women cat 4
>
> Then, if the cat 1/2 field doesn't have five women, cancel that field?
> What if the cat 3 / Master's doesn't have enough in it also, cancel it
> too?
> Cat 4 women don't seem to have an issue in this context.
>
> Steve
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
> Behalf Of Renata Hahn
> Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2007 12:26 PM
> To: cmurray@obra.org; obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Senior women fields
>
> I believe there are a lot of women that are in the Master's category
> that love to race, but will not come out when they are put with the
> large Cat4 beginner women's field. I am for one. Why not put us with the
> Cat3 women's field (since most are probably Cat3's, or should be
> anyway)??? Wouldn't that make sense?
>
> I know Cherry Pie was very scary with the Cat 4's, yet the Cat 3's had
> hardly any in it, I didn't do Piece of cake or Swan Island, or King's
> valley, or Banna belt or any other race because there either was no
> master's women's category, or there was, but it was with the Cat4's. I
> think there would be more master's women coming out if you put us with
> the 3's.
>
> My 2C's worth.
>
> Renata Hahn, Team Rose City
>
>
> --- Candi Murray wrote:
>
> > Three rivers had 2 women show up
> > Swan Island had 4 women show up.
> > These races cancelled their women's field.
> > Minimum field size is 5. Unless you want to see racing for senior
> > women to go away, it is time you showed up.
> > Silverton is this weekend.
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ____________
> Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles.
> Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.
> http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


Fischer, Jim E (Corvallis)

2007-05-24

Renata,

What you propose sounds like a mini-series for Women...a "Women's Road
Series".

This sort of mini-series has been developed on the mountain bike side of
things, but was not segregated by category, but rather by event. The
more established events were invited to be part of the series, which was
a subset of the other events throughout the season (Teva, Sobe,
Powerbar, etc). Example - The high school teams got together to decide
which events were going to be part of their series. One parent tracked
points and communicated to the various school teams around the state
which events to attend.

While it's not OBRA's nature to limit events or fields, it could be
something the riders put together in conjuction with the promoters.

There are only about a dozen road races this season. Cherry Pie, Piece
of Cake, King's Valley, BB1,2,3, Three Rivers, Silverton, Table Rock,
OBRA Champs & OBRA Rehearsal...sorry if I missed a few. Going from my
very faulty memory.

If the ladies would like to see a subset of, say, 5 events that offered
them categories, this could be a cool thing. The other races could NOT
offer these fields likely saving them money. One or two people could
organize this Women's Series and work with promoters to not only make it
happen, but to deal with points, etc for the finals.

It would be very cool for everyone involved unless you happen to be a
lady who wants to race every race on the calendar...then you could jump
in with the cat 3 or 4 men or something like that.

My two cents...

Fish

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Renata Hahn
Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2007 12:26 PM
To: cmurray@obra.org; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Senior women fields

I believe there are a lot of women that are in the Master's category
that love to race, but will not come out when they are put with the
large Cat4 beginner women's field. I am for one. Why not put us with the
Cat3 women's field (since most are probably Cat3's, or should be
anyway)??? Wouldn't that make sense?

I know Cherry Pie was very scary with the Cat 4's, yet the Cat 3's had
hardly any in it, I didn't do Piece of cake or Swan Island, or King's
valley, or Banna belt or any other race because there either was no
master's women's category, or there was, but it was with the Cat4's. I
think there would be more master's women coming out if you put us with
the 3's.

My 2C's worth.

Renata Hahn, Team Rose City

--- Candi Murray wrote:

> Three rivers had 2 women show up
> Swan Island had 4 women show up.
> These races cancelled their women's field.
> Minimum field size is 5. Unless you want to see racing for senior
> women to go away, it is time you showed up.
> Silverton is this weekend.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>


________________________________________________________________________
____________
Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles.
Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.
http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


Long, Steve

2007-05-24

Renata,

Are you saying that you think there would be better numbers if the
categories where as follows?

Women cat 1/2
Women cat 3 / Master's scored seperately (perhaps)
Women cat 4

Then, if the cat 1/2 field doesn't have five women, cancel that field?
What if the cat 3 / Master's doesn't have enough in it also, cancel it
too?
Cat 4 women don't seem to have an issue in this context.

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Renata Hahn
Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2007 12:26 PM
To: cmurray@obra.org; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Senior women fields

I believe there are a lot of women that are in the Master's category
that love to race, but will not come out when they are put with the
large Cat4 beginner women's field. I am for one. Why not put us with the
Cat3 women's field (since most are probably Cat3's, or should be
anyway)??? Wouldn't that make sense?

I know Cherry Pie was very scary with the Cat 4's, yet the Cat 3's had
hardly any in it, I didn't do Piece of cake or Swan Island, or King's
valley, or Banna belt or any other race because there either was no
master's women's category, or there was, but it was with the Cat4's. I
think there would be more master's women coming out if you put us with
the 3's.

My 2C's worth.

Renata Hahn, Team Rose City

--- Candi Murray wrote:

> Three rivers had 2 women show up
> Swan Island had 4 women show up.
> These races cancelled their women's field.
> Minimum field size is 5. Unless you want to see racing for senior
> women to go away, it is time you showed up.
> Silverton is this weekend.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>


________________________________________________________________________
____________
Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles.
Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.
http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


Renata Hahn

2007-05-24

I believe there are a lot of women that are in the
Master's category that love to race, but will not come
out when they are put with the large Cat4 beginner
women's field. I am for one. Why not put us with the
Cat3 women's field (since most are probably Cat3's, or
should be anyway)??? Wouldn't that make sense?

I know Cherry Pie was very scary with the Cat 4's, yet
the Cat 3's had hardly any in it, I didn't do Piece of
cake or Swan Island, or King's valley, or Banna belt
or any other race because there either was no master's
women's category, or there was, but it was with the
Cat4's. I think there would be more master's women
coming out if you put us with the 3's.

My 2C's worth.

Renata Hahn, Team Rose City

--- Candi Murray wrote:

> Three rivers had 2 women show up
> Swan Island had 4 women show up.
> These races cancelled their women's field.
> Minimum field size is 5. Unless you want to see
> racing for senior women to
> go away, it is time you showed up.
> Silverton is this weekend.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

____________________________________________________________________________________
Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.
http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/


mark duff

2007-05-23

I noticed more women at PIR last night in the 1,2,3 field and I spotted one
in the 3/4's so they are starting to come out again, let's just hope they
keep it up! Seems like the #'s should be higher on mondays, but they seem
low? Jim would know better than me... Come on ladies, we know you are out
there, let's start seeing you race more!!!
Cheers
Mark Duff
www.veloforma.com

>From: "Candi Murray"
>Reply-To: cmurray@obra.org
>To:
>Subject: [OBRA Chat] Senior women fields
>Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 10:59:23 -0700
>
>Three rivers had 2 women show up
>Swan Island had 4 women show up.
>These races cancelled their women's field.
>Minimum field size is 5. Unless you want to see racing for senior women to
>go away, it is time you showed up.
>Silverton is this weekend.
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>OBRA mailing list
>obra@list.obra.org
>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_________________________________________________________________
Catch suspicious messages before you open them?with Windows Live Hotmail.
http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_protection_0507


Candi Murray

2007-05-23

Three rivers had 2 women show up
Swan Island had 4 women show up.
These races cancelled their women's field.
Minimum field size is 5. Unless you want to see racing for senior women to
go away, it is time you showed up.
Silverton is this weekend.