OBRA Land,
For those of you who may not have seen this in another news source
or who do not follow Jonathan Maus,
http://bikeportland.org/2007/06/18/odonnells-widow-in-salem-for-
vulnerable-user-bill-passage/. HB 3314 may just pass.
Steve Brown
I support the idea of random justice, and if elected I
promise to bring this upon our fair land. To the cry
babies who say "I'm innocent", well I'm sorry but,
sometime even the innocent need a little random
justice to.
Please vote for Greg Crane for Imperial President.
--- gschreckchat@comcast.net wrote:
> What laws force people to own up? The constitution
> itself, says you have the right to not incriminate
> yourself. The laws punish bad conduct, but only if
> there is sufficient proof. Having laws that punish
> on the assumption that you did something wrong
> without proof is contrary to our values and is
> better reserved for some of the less enlightened
> societies whose conduct we reject.
>
> Frankly, I am surpised to hear attorneys say they
> support this approach.
>
> --
>
> George Schreck
> gschreckchat@comcast.net
> (503) 502-0425
>
> -------------- Original message --------------
> From: "Long, Steve"
>
> Unfortunately, there is nothing, that, without the
> burden of proof, will deter individuals like that
> and there should be.
> We all know that there are some people, that will
> just not own up to their actions. That's why there
> are laws, to force people to own up--so to speak.
> Society gets together and says, we don't like it
> when people do this sort of thing--that sort of
> thing; it's dangerous; it inhibits the rest of us
> from living our lives in safety or whatever so a law
> gets created. Then, it's up to law enforcement to do
> their deal.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: gschreckchat@comcast.net
> [mailto:gschreckchat@comcast.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2007 11:05 AM
> To: Long, Steve; Erik Long; obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] HB 3314
>
>
>
> That is the way the world works (at least in Western
> democracies). You do something wrong and it is
> proved, you pay. If not proved, you do not. Do you
> think that people should be punished if you cannot
> prove they did anything wrong?
>
> --
>
> George Schreck
> gschreckchat@comcast.net
> (503) 502-0425
>
> -------------- Original message --------------
> From: "Long, Steve"
>
> How are you going to prove a "bad act?"
>
> This will often result in a he said, she said
> confrontation or court battle with the inevitable no
> fine or punishment being issued.
>
> And, how about the type of situation that I
> encountered on my way home last night:
> I'm riding down 42nd ave in Milwaukie in the right
> hand side of the lane. As I approach Logus, I move
> over into the left side of the lane to make a left
> turn, while signaling of course. I come to a stop
> and then proceed, making my left hand turn. Then,
> the guy in the 4000 lb full size truck behind me
> squeals his tires as he takes off, also making a
> left hand turn. I look in my mirror on my glasses
> and notice that the guy is not going to give me any
> room and, indeed, looks like he's going to at least
> buzz me, so I move out into the lane to force him to
> give me room or at least keep him from buzzing me.
> As the approaching vehicle coming in the opposite
> direction passes, this guy passes me, violently
> swinging his lethal weapon so far in my direction
> that he runs over the curb.
>
> How are you going to prove that this guy was in the
> wrong if he had hit me? I guarantee you that he'd
> say he didn't do any of that stuff. These people
> almost always get off scot free and minimally need a
> good sit down talking too given no physical harm was
> done.
>
>
>
>
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of
> gschreckchat@comcast.net
> Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2007 10:43 AM
> To: Erik Long; obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] HB 3314
>
>
>
> Good point, but it does not mean i have to support
> something I think is a bad idea.
>
> Still, I should have an alternative and will try
> think of one to suggest to Mr. Brown. Of course,
> failure is an option.
>
>
>
> --
>
> George Schreck
> gschreckchat@comcast.net
> (503) 502-0425
>
> -------------- Original message --------------
> From: "Erik Long"
>
> > You fail to offer an alternative, G
> >
> > ----Original Message Follows----
> > From: gschreckchat@comcast.net
> > To: "Erik Long" , obra@list.obra.org
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] HB 3314
> > Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 21:13:55 +0000
> >
> > Yes, I guess without a $12,000 fine, people will
> not be concerned about
> > killing someone with their vehicle. Rigth of
> course. If it were not for
> > the possibiltiy of fines, I would do all my
> driving on sidewalks at rush
> > hour to save time and the hell with those pesky
> pedestrians. This bill
> > makes no sense at all.
> >
> > If someone kills someone on a highway and their
> conduct rises to the level
> > of a bad act, they sohuld be punished. If th e act
> is not in that vein, then
> > it should not matter who was injured. It is not as
> if $12,000 in any way
> > relates to the gravity of someone getting killed.
> The significance of that
> > event is severe enough that it makes the fine pale
> in comparison and it is
> > doubtful that the fine will have any independent
> effect on behavior.
> >
> > --
> >
> > George Schreck
> > gschreckchat@comcast.net
> > (503) 502-0425
> >
> > -------------- Original message --------------
> > From: "Erik Long"
> >
> > > So, what kind of punishment is appropriate for
> negligence resulting in an
> > > accidental death? A few months in prison? Maybe
> a few years? A slap on
> > > the wrist is completely insufficient for such an
> act, but prison time for
> > an
> > > involuntary manslaughter is overkill and just
> costs everybody in the long
> > > run. A stiff fine o f $1 2, 000 is appropriate
> as motivation for drivers pay
> > > attention to where the hell their bumper is
> going.
> > >
> > > $12k may sting, but prison will ruin a lot more
> than your bank account.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----Original Message Follows----
> > > From: gschreckchat@comcast.net
> > > To: "Curt Dewees"
> > > CC: OBRA list
> > > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] HB 3314
> > > Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 18:02:19 +0000
> > >
> > > So we all will feel better after someone dies
> because the drive paid a
> > > $12,000 fine and/or performed some community
> service. The punishment
> > should
> > > depend on the nature of the act and not who the
> victim was in the case of
> > a
> > > road accident. Accidents happen sometimes. If it
> is beyond that, then
> > > there should be punishment appropriate to the
> act.
=== message truncated ===>
_______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
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What laws force people to own up? The constitution itself, says you have the right to not incriminate yourself. The laws punish bad conduct, but only if there is sufficient proof. Having laws that punish on the assumption that you did something wrong without proof is contrary to our values and is better reserved for some of the less enlightened societies whose conduct we reject.
Frankly, I am surpised to hear attorneys say they support this approach.
--
George Schreck
gschreckchat@comcast.net
(503) 502-0425
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Long, Steve"
Unfortunately, there is nothing, that, without the burden of proof, will deter individuals like that and there should be.
We all know that there are some people, that will just not own up to their actions. That's why there are laws, to force people to own up--so to speak. Society gets together and says, we don't like it when people do this sort of thing--that sort of thing; it's dangerous; it inhibits the rest of us from living our lives in safety or whatever so a law gets created. Then, it's up to law enforcement to do their deal.
From: gschreckchat@comcast.net [mailto:gschreckchat@comcast.net]
Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2007 11:05 AM
To: Long, Steve; Erik Long; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] HB 3314
That is the way the world works (at least in Western democracies). You do something wrong and it is proved, you pay. If not proved, you do not. Do you think that people should be punished if you cannot prove they did anything wrong?
--
George Schreck
gschreckchat@comcast.net
(503) 502-0425
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Long, Steve"
How are you going to prove a "bad act?"
This will often result in a he said, she said confrontation or court battle with the inevitable no fine or punishment being issued.
And, how about the type of situation that I encountered on my way home last night:
I'm riding down 42nd ave in Milwaukie in the right hand side of the lane. As I approach Logus, I move over into the left side of the lane to make a left turn, while signaling of course. I come to a stop and then proceed, making my left hand turn. Then, the guy in the 4000 lb full size truck behind me squeals his tires as he takes off, also making a left hand turn. I look in my mirror on my glasses and notice that the guy is not going to give me any room and, indeed, looks like he's going to at least buzz me, so I move out into the lane to force him to give me room or at least keep him from buzzing me. As the approaching vehicle coming in the opposite direction passes, this guy passes me, violently swinging his lethal weapon so far in my direction that he runs over the curb.
How are you going to prove that this guy was in the wrong if he had hit me? I guarantee you that he'd say he didn't do any of that stuff. These people almost always get off scot free and minimally need a good sit down talking too given no physical harm was done.
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of gschreckchat@comcast.net
Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2007 10:43 AM
To: Erik Long; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] HB 3314
Good point, but it does not mean i have to support something I think is a bad idea.
Still, I should have an alternative and will try think of one to suggest to Mr. Brown. Of course, failure is an option.
--
George Schreck
gschreckchat@comcast.net
(503) 502-0425
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Erik Long"
> You fail to offer an alternative, G
>
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: gschreckchat@comcast.net
> To: "Erik Long" , obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] HB 3314
> Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 21:13:55 +0000
>
> Yes, I guess without a $12,000 fine, people will not be concerned about
> killing someone with their vehicle. Rigth of course. If it were not for
> the possibiltiy of fines, I would do all my driving on sidewalks at rush
> hour to save time and the hell with those pesky pedestrians. This bill
> makes no sense at all.
>
> If someone kills someone on a highway and their conduct rises to the level
> of a bad act, they sohuld be punished. If th e act is not in that vein, then
> it should not matter who was injured. It is not as if $12,000 in any way
> relates to the gravity of someone getting killed. The significance of that
> event is severe enough that it makes the fine pale in comparison and it is
> doubtful that the fine will have any independent effect on behavior.
>
> --
>
> George Schreck
> gschreckchat@comcast.net
> (503) 502-0425
>
> -------------- Original message --------------
> From: "Erik Long"
>
> > So, what kind of punishment is appropriate for negligence resulting in an
> > accidental death? A few months in prison? Maybe a few years? A slap on
> > the wrist is completely insufficient for such an act, but prison time for
> an
> > involuntary manslaughter is overkill and just costs everybody in the long
> > run. A stiff fine o f $1 2, 000 is appropriate as motivation for drivers pay
> > attention to where the hell their bumper is going.
> >
> > $12k may sting, but prison will ruin a lot more than your bank account.
> >
> >
> >
> > ----Original Message Follows----
> > From: gschreckchat@comcast.net
> > To: "Curt Dewees"
> > CC: OBRA list
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] HB 3314
> > Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 18:02:19 +0000
> >
> > So we all will feel better after someone dies because the drive paid a
> > $12,000 fine and/or performed some community service. The punishment
> should
> > depend on the nature of the act and not who the victim was in the case of
> a
> > road accident. Accidents happen sometimes. If it is beyond that, then
> > there should be punishment appropriate to the act.
> >
> > --
& g t; > ;
> > George Schreck
> > gschreckchat@comcast.net
> > (503) 502-0425
> >
> > -------------- Original message --------------
> > From: "Curt Dewees"
> >
> > > George,
> > > This bill is an attempt to provide our police officers with the tools
> > > they need to do something fair and just at the scene of many so-called
> > > "accidents". Several times a year we read about drivers who "got the
> > > sun in their eyes" or just "didn't see" the cyclist or pedestrian and
> > > then hit and killed the cyclist and pedestrian. Since it was an
> > > "accident" and not an intentional killing, all the police can do at
> > > the present is issue a citation for "failure to yield to pedestrian in
> > > crosswalk" or some other minor infraction like that.
> > >
> > > The police just don't have any tools to deal with these situations in
> > > a just and fair manner. Most of the time the drivers don't even have
> > > to show up in court and face their victims families. They just send in
> > > a check with their citation, and they are off scot-free (except for
> > > paying the minor traffic fine).
> > >
> > > This bill is meant to address this inequity, and give police officers
> > > the tool they need to really make drivers pay attention and show up in
> > > court and apologize to the victims' families and take some remedial
> > > driver's ed classes and make some restitution to the community after
> > > they hit and kill a cyclist or pedestrian because of their own
> > > carelessness and/or inattentiveness.
> > >
> > > This is a good bill, and everyone who walks or rides a bike on or near < BR>& gt; &g t; > public roads should gladly support it.
> > >
> > > Curt Dewees
> > >
> > > On 6/5/07, gschreckchat@comcast.net wrote:
> > > >
> > > > ... I do not see the point of this legislation,
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Get a preview of Live Earth, the hottest event this summer - only on MSN
> > http://liveearth.msn.com?source=msntaglineliveearthhm
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Like puzzles? Play free games & earn great prizes. Play Clink now.
& gt; http://clu b.live .com/clink.aspx?icid=clink_hotmailtextlink2
>
Steve,
Your situation is the type that needs to be stopped. I'm certain
some of the legal minds that read this can make a comment on the how
one would make a case if such a law was in place. But the point
continues to be that cyclists need more protection on the road. We
should at least have the same protection afforded us in all other
aspects of life. The way current law is written, it seems that a
cyclist on the road is fair game. If you were standing in a park and
the driver of the truck came at you with his vehicle in the same
manner and you had a witness, ou may have a case. Not being a
lawyer, just riding with them, I am not certain. But as someone who
is witness to some of the process in Salem. HB 3314 is a move in the
right direction. I know we do not have George's support but that is
what a democracy it about. Getting out there and making it work.
Steve Brown
On Jun 6, 2007, at 10:54 AM, Long, Steve wrote:
> How are you going to prove a "bad act?"
>
> This will often result in a he said, she said confrontation or
> court battle with the inevitable no fine or punishment being issued.
>
> And, how about the type of situation that I encountered on my way
> home last night:
> I'm riding down 42nd ave in Milwaukie in the right hand side of the
> lane. As I approach Logus, I move over into the left side of the
> lane to make a left turn, while signaling of course. I come to a
> stop and then proceed, making my left hand turn. Then, the guy in
> the 4000 lb full size truck behind me squeals his tires as he takes
> off, also making a left hand turn. I look in my mirror on my
> glasses and notice that the guy is not going to give me any room
> and, indeed, looks like he's going to at least buzz me, so I move
> out into the lane to force him to give me room or at least keep him
> from buzzing me. As the approaching vehicle coming in the opposite
> direction passes, this guy passes me, violently swinging his lethal
> weapon so far in my direction that he runs over the curb.
>
> How are you going to prove that this guy was in the wrong if he had
> hit me? I guarantee you that he'd say he didn't do any of that
> stuff. These people almost always get off scot free and minimally
> need a good sit down talking too given no physical harm was done.
>
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-
> bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of gschreckchat@comcast.net
> Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2007 10:43 AM
> To: Erik Long; obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] HB 3314
>
> Good point, but it does not mean i have to support something I
> think is a bad idea.
>
> Still, I should have an alternative and will try think of one to
> suggest to Mr. Brown. Of course, failure is an option.
>
>
>
> --
>
> George Schreck
> gschreckchat@comcast.net
> (503) 502-0425
>
> -------------- Original message --------------
> From: "Erik Long"
>
> > You fail to offer an alternative, G
> >
> > ----Original Message Follows----
> > From: gschreckchat@comcast.net
> > To: "Erik Long" , obra@list.obra.org
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] HB 3314
> > Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 21:13:55 +0000
> >
> > Yes, I guess without a $12,000 fine, people will not be concerned
> about
> > killing someone with their vehicle. Rigth of course. If it were
> not for
> > the possibiltiy of fines, I would do all my driving on sidewalks
> at rush
> > hour to save time and the hell with those pesky pedestrians. This
> bill
> > makes no sense at all.
> >
> > If someone kills someone on a highway and their conduct rises to
> the level
> > of a bad act, they sohuld be punished. If th e act is not in that
> vein, then
> > it should not matter who was injured. It is not as if $12,000 in
> any way
> > relates to the gravity of someone getting killed. The
> significance of that
> > event is severe enough that it makes the fine pale in comparison
> and it is
> > doubtful that the fine will have any independent effect on behavior.
> >
> > --
> >
> > George Schreck
> > gschreckchat@comcast.net
> > (503) 502-0425
> >
> > -------------- Original message --------------
> > From: "Erik Long"
> >
> > > So, what kind of punishment is appropriate for negligence
> resulting in an
> > > accidental death? A few months in prison? Maybe a few years? A
> slap on
> > > the wrist is completely insufficient for such an act, but
> prison time for
> > an
> > > involuntary manslaughter is overkill and just costs everybody
> in the long
> > > run. A stiff fine o f $12, 000 is appropriate as motivation for
> drivers pay
> > > attention to where the hell their bumper is going.
> > >
> > > $12k may sting, but prison will ruin a lot more than your bank
> account.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----Original Message Follows----
> > > From: gschreckchat@comcast.net
> > > To: "Curt Dewees"
> > > CC: OBRA list
> > > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] HB 3314
> > > Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 18:02:19 +0000
> > >
> > > So we all will feel better after someone dies because the drive
> paid a
> > > $12,000 fine and/or performed some community service. The
> punishment
> > should
> > > depend on the nature of the act and not who the victim was in
> the case of
> > a
> > > road accident. Accidents happen sometimes. If it is beyond
> that, then
> > > there should be punishment appropriate to the act.
> > >
> > > --
> &g t; > ;
> > > George Schreck
> > > gschreckchat@comcast.net
> > > (503) 502-0425
> > >
> > > -------------- Original message --------------
> > > From: "Curt Dewees"
> > >
> > > > George,
> > > > This bill is an attempt to provide our police officers with
> the tools
> > > > they need to do something fair and just at the scene of many
> so-called
> > > > "accidents". Several times a year we read about drivers who
> "got the
> > > > sun in their eyes" or just "didn't see" the cyclist or
> pedestrian and
> > > > then hit and killed the cyclist and pedestrian. Since it was an
> > > > "accident" and not an intentional killing, all the police can
> do at
> > > > the present is issue a citation for "failure to yield to
> pedestrian in
> > > > crosswalk" or some other minor infraction like that.
> > > >
> > > > The police just don't have any tools to deal with these
> situations in
> > > > a just and fair manner. Most of the time the drivers don't
> even have
> > > > to show up in court and face their victims families. They
> just send in
> > > > a check with their citation, and they are off scot-free
> (except for
> > > > paying the minor traffic fine).
> > > >
> > > > This bill is meant to address this inequity, and give police
> officers
> > > > the tool they need to really make drivers pay attention and
> show up in
> > > > court and apologize to the victims' families and take some
> remedial
> > > > driver's ed classes and make some restitution to the
> community after
> > > > they hit and kill a cyclist or pedestrian because of their own
> > > > carelessness and/or inattentiveness.
> > > >
> > > > This is a good bill, and everyone who walks or rides a bike
> on or near
> & gt; &g t; > public roads should gladly support it.
> > > >
> > > > Curt Dewees
> > > >
> > > > On 6/5/07, gschreckchat@comcast.net wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > ... I do not see the point of this legislation,
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > OBRA mailing list
> > > obra@list.obra.org
> > > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > Get a preview of Live Earth, the hottest event this summer -
> only on MSN
> > > http://liveearth.msn.com?source=msntaglineliveearthhm
> > >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Like puzzles? Play free games & earn great prizes. Play Clink now.
> > http://clu b.live .com/clink.aspx?icid=clink_hotmailtextlink2
> >
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
Unfortunately, there is nothing, that, without the burden of proof, will
deter individuals like that and there should be.
We all know that there are some people, that will just not own up to
their actions. That's why there are laws, to force people to own up--so
to speak. Society gets together and says, we don't like it when people
do this sort of thing--that sort of thing; it's dangerous; it inhibits
the rest of us from living our lives in safety or whatever so a law gets
created. Then, it's up to law enforcement to do their deal.
________________________________
From: gschreckchat@comcast.net [mailto:gschreckchat@comcast.net]
Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2007 11:05 AM
To: Long, Steve; Erik Long; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] HB 3314
That is the way the world works (at least in Western democracies). You
do something wrong and it is proved, you pay. If not proved, you do
not. Do you think that people should be punished if you cannot prove
they did anything wrong?
--
George Schreck
gschreckchat@comcast.net
(503) 502-0425
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Long, Steve"
How are you going to prove a "bad act?"
This will often result in a he said, she said confrontation or
court battle with the inevitable no fine or punishment being issued.
And, how about the type of situation that I encountered on my
way home last night:
I'm riding down 42nd ave in Milwaukie in the right hand side of
the lane. As I approach Logus, I move over into the left side of the
lane to make a left turn, while signaling of course. I come to a stop
and then proceed, making my left hand turn. Then, the guy in the 4000 lb
full size truck behind me squeals his tires as he takes off, also making
a left hand turn. I look in my mirror on my glasses and notice that the
guy is not going to give me any room and, indeed, looks like he's going
to at least buzz me, so I move out into the lane to force him to give me
room or at least keep him from buzzing me. As the approaching vehicle
coming in the opposite direction passes, this guy passes me, violently
swinging his lethal weapon so far in my direction that he runs over the
curb.
How are you going to prove that this guy was in the wrong if he
had hit me? I guarantee you that he'd say he didn't do any of that
stuff. These people almost always get off scot free and minimally need a
good sit down talking too given no physical harm was done.
________________________________
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
[mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of
gschreckchat@comcast.net
Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2007 10:43 AM
To: Erik Long; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] HB 3314
Good point, but it does not mean i have to support something I
think is a bad idea.
Still, I should have an alternative and will try think of one to
suggest to Mr. Brown. Of course, failure is an option.
--
George Schreck
gschreckchat@comcast.net
(503) 502-0425
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Erik Long"
> You fail to offer an alternative, G
>
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: gschreckchat@comcast.net
> To: "Erik Long" , obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] HB 3314
> Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 21:13:55 +0000
>
> Yes, I guess without a $12,000 fine, people will not
be concerned about
> killing someone with their vehicle. Rigth of course.
If it were not for
> the possibiltiy of fines, I would do all my driving on
sidewalks at rush
> hour to save time and the hell with those pesky
pedestrians. This bill
> makes no sense at all.
>
> If someone kills someone on a highway and their
conduct rises to the level
> of a bad act, they sohuld be punished. If th e act is
not in that vein, then
> it should not matter who was injured. It is not as if
$12,000 in any way
> relates to the gravity of someone getting killed. The
significance of that
> event is severe enough that it makes the fine pale in
comparison and it is
> doubtful that the fine will have any independent
effect on behavior.
>
> --
>
> George Schreck
> gschreckchat@comcast.net
> (503) 502-0425
>
> -------------- Original message --------------
> From: "Erik Long"
>
> > So, what kind of punishment is appropriate for
negligence resulting in an
> > accidental death? A few months in prison? Maybe a
few years? A slap on
> > the wrist is completely insufficient for such an
act, but prison time for
> an
> > involuntary manslaughter is overkill and just costs
everybody in the long
> > run. A stiff fine o f $1 2, 000 is appropriate as
motivation for drivers pay
> > attention to where the hell their bumper is going.
> >
> > $12k may sting, but prison will ruin a lot more than
your bank account.
> >
> >
> >
> > ----Original Message Follows----
> > From: gschreckchat@comcast.net
> > To: "Curt Dewees"
> > CC: OBRA list
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] HB 3314
> > Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 18:02:19 +0000
> >
> > So we all will feel better after someone dies
because the drive paid a
> > $12,000 fine and/or performed some community
service. The punishment
> should
> > depend on the nature of the act and not who the
victim was in the case of
> a
> > road accident. Accidents happen sometimes. If it is
beyond that, then
> > there should be punishment appropriate to the act.
> >
> > --
& g t; > ;
> > George Schreck
> > gschreckchat@comcast.net
> > (503) 502-0425
> >
> > -------------- Original message --------------
> > From: "Curt Dewees"
> >
> > > George,
> > > This bill is an attempt to provide our police
officers with the tools
> > > they need to do something fair and just at the
scene of many so-called
> > > "accidents". Several times a year we read about
drivers who "got the
> > > sun in their eyes" or just "didn't see" the
cyclist or pedestrian and
> > > then hit and killed the cyclist and pedestrian.
Since it was an
> > > "accident" and not an intentional killing, all the
police can do at
> > > the present is issue a citation for "failure to
yield to pedestrian in
> > > crosswalk" or some other minor infraction like
that.
> > >
> > > The police just don't have any tools to deal with
these situations in
> > > a just and fair manner. Most of the time the
drivers don't even have
> > > to show up in court and face their victims
families. They just send in
> > > a check with their citation, and they are off
scot-free (except for
> > > paying the minor traffic fine).
> > >
> > > This bill is meant to address this inequity, and
give police officers
> > > the tool they need to really make drivers pay
attention and show up in
> > > court and apologize to the victims' families and
take some remedial
> > > driver's ed classes and make some restitution to
the community after
> > > they hit and kill a cyclist or pedestrian because
of their own
> > > carelessness and/or inattentiveness.
> > >
> > > This is a good bill, and everyone who walks or
rides a bike on or near < BR>& gt; &g t; > public roads should gladly
support it.
> > >
> > > Curt Dewees
> > >
> > > On 6/5/07, gschreckchat@comcast.net wrote:
> > > >
> > > > ... I do not see the point of this legislation,
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> >
_________________________________________________________________
> > Get a preview of Live Earth, the hottest event this
summer - only on MSN
> >
http://liveearth.msn.com?source=msntaglineliveearthhm
> >
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
> Like puzzles? Play free games & earn great prizes.
Play Clink now.
& gt; http://clu b.live
.com/clink.aspx?icid=clink_hotmailtextlink2
>
That is the way the world works (at least in Western democracies). You do something wrong and it is proved, you pay. If not proved, you do not. Do you think that people should be punished if you cannot prove they did anything wrong?
--
George Schreck
gschreckchat@comcast.net
(503) 502-0425
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Long, Steve"
How are you going to prove a "bad act?"
This will often result in a he said, she said confrontation or court battle with the inevitable no fine or punishment being issued.
And, how about the type of situation that I encountered on my way home last night:
I'm riding down 42nd ave in Milwaukie in the right hand side of the lane. As I approach Logus, I move over into the left side of the lane to make a left turn, while signaling of course. I come to a stop and then proceed, making my left hand turn. Then, the guy in the 4000 lb full size truck behind me squeals his tires as he takes off, also making a left hand turn. I look in my mirror on my glasses and notice that the guy is not going to give me any room and, indeed, looks like he's going to at least buzz me, so I move out into the lane to force him to give me room or at least keep him from buzzing me. As the approaching vehicle coming in the opposite direction passes, this guy passes me, violently swinging his lethal weapon so far in my direction that he runs over the curb.
How are you going to prove that this guy was in the wrong if he had hit me? I guarantee you that he'd say he didn't do any of that stuff. These people almost always get off scot free and minimally need a good sit down talking too given no physical harm was done.
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of gschreckchat@comcast.net
Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2007 10:43 AM
To: Erik Long; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] HB 3314
Good point, but it does not mean i have to support something I think is a bad idea.
Still, I should have an alternative and will try think of one to suggest to Mr. Brown. Of course, failure is an option.
--
George Schreck
gschreckchat@comcast.net
(503) 502-0425
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Erik Long"
> You fail to offer an alternative, G
>
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: gschreckchat@comcast.net
> To: "Erik Long" , obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] HB 3314
> Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 21:13:55 +0000
>
> Yes, I guess without a $12,000 fine, people will not be concerned about
> killing someone with their vehicle. Rigth of course. If it were not for
> the possibiltiy of fines, I would do all my driving on sidewalks at rush
> hour to save time and the hell with those pesky pedestrians. This bill
> makes no sense at all.
>
> If someone kills someone on a highway and their conduct rises to the level
> of a bad act, they sohuld be punished. If th e act is not in that vein, then
> it should not matter who was injured. It is not as if $12,000 in any way
> relates to the gravity of someone getting killed. The significance of that
> event is severe enough that it makes the fine pale in comparison and it is
> doubtful that the fine will have any independent effect on behavior.
>
> --
>
> George Schreck
> gschreckchat@comcast.net
> (503) 502-0425
>
> -------------- Original message --------------
> From: "Erik Long"
>
> > So, what kind of punishment is appropriate for negligence resulting in an
> > accidental death? A few months in prison? Maybe a few years? A slap on
> > the wrist is completely insufficient for such an act, but prison time for
> an
> > involuntary manslaughter is overkill and just costs everybody in the long
> > run. A stiff fine o f $12, 000 is appropriate as motivation for drivers pay
> > attention to where the hell their bumper is going.
> >
> > $12k may sting, but prison will ruin a lot more than your bank account.
> >
> >
> >
> > ----Original Message Follows----
> > From: gschreckchat@comcast.net
> > To: "Curt Dewees"
> > CC: OBRA list
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] HB 3314
> > Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 18:02:19 +0000
> >
> > So we all will feel better after someone dies because the drive paid a
> > $12,000 fine and/or performed some community service. The punishment
> should
> > depend on the nature of the act and not who the victim was in the case of
> a
> > road accident. Accidents happen sometimes. If it is beyond that, then
> > there should be punishment appropriate to the act.
> >
> > --
&g t; > ;
> > George Schreck
> > gschreckchat@comcast.net
> > (503) 502-0425
> >
> > -------------- Original message --------------
> > From: "Curt Dewees"
> >
> > > George,
> > > This bill is an attempt to provide our police officers with the tools
> > > they need to do something fair and just at the scene of many so-called
> > > "accidents". Several times a year we read about drivers who "got the
> > > sun in their eyes" or just "didn't see" the cyclist or pedestrian and
> > > then hit and killed the cyclist and pedestrian. Since it was an
> > > "accident" and not an intentional killing, all the police can do at
> > > the present is issue a citation for "failure to yield to pedestrian in
> > > crosswalk" or some other minor infraction like that.
> > >
> > > The police just don't have any tools to deal with these situations in
> > > a just and fair manner. Most of the time the drivers don't even have
> > > to show up in court and face their victims families. They just send in
> > > a check with their citation, and they are off scot-free (except for
> > > paying the minor traffic fine).
> > >
> > > This bill is meant to address this inequity, and give police officers
> > > the tool they need to really make drivers pay attention and show up in
> > > court and apologize to the victims' families and take some remedial
> > > driver's ed classes and make some restitution to the community after
> > > they hit and kill a cyclist or pedestrian because of their own
> > > carelessness and/or inattentiveness.
> > >
> > > This is a good bill, and everyone who walks or rides a bike on or near
& gt; &g t; > public roads should gladly support it.
> > >
> > > Curt Dewees
> > >
> > > On 6/5/07, gschreckchat@comcast.net wrote:
> > > >
> > > > ... I do not see the point of this legislation,
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Get a preview of Live Earth, the hottest event this summer - only on MSN
> > http://liveearth.msn.com?source=msntaglineliveearthhm
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Like puzzles? Play free games & earn great prizes. Play Clink now.
> http://clu b.live .com/clink.aspx?icid=clink_hotmailtextlink2
>
How are you going to prove a "bad act?"
This will often result in a he said, she said confrontation or court
battle with the inevitable no fine or punishment being issued.
And, how about the type of situation that I encountered on my way home
last night:
I'm riding down 42nd ave in Milwaukie in the right hand side of the
lane. As I approach Logus, I move over into the left side of the lane to
make a left turn, while signaling of course. I come to a stop and then
proceed, making my left hand turn. Then, the guy in the 4000 lb full
size truck behind me squeals his tires as he takes off, also making a
left hand turn. I look in my mirror on my glasses and notice that the
guy is not going to give me any room and, indeed, looks like he's going
to at least buzz me, so I move out into the lane to force him to give me
room or at least keep him from buzzing me. As the approaching vehicle
coming in the opposite direction passes, this guy passes me, violently
swinging his lethal weapon so far in my direction that he runs over the
curb.
How are you going to prove that this guy was in the wrong if he had hit
me? I guarantee you that he'd say he didn't do any of that stuff. These
people almost always get off scot free and minimally need a good sit
down talking too given no physical harm was done.
________________________________
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of gschreckchat@comcast.net
Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2007 10:43 AM
To: Erik Long; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] HB 3314
Good point, but it does not mean i have to support something I think is
a bad idea.
Still, I should have an alternative and will try think of one to suggest
to Mr. Brown. Of course, failure is an option.
--
George Schreck
gschreckchat@comcast.net
(503) 502-0425
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Erik Long"
> You fail to offer an alternative, G
>
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: gschreckchat@comcast.net
> To: "Erik Long" , obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] HB 3314
> Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 21:13:55 +0000
>
> Yes, I guess without a $12,000 fine, people will not be
concerned about
> killing someone with their vehicle. Rigth of course. If it
were not for
> the possibiltiy of fines, I would do all my driving on
sidewalks at rush
> hour to save time and the hell with those pesky pedestrians.
This bill
> makes no sense at all.
>
> If someone kills someone on a highway and their conduct rises
to the level
> of a bad act, they sohuld be punished. If th e act is not in
that vein, then
> it should not matter who was injured. It is not as if $12,000
in any way
> relates to the gravity of someone getting killed. The
significance of that
> event is severe enough that it makes the fine pale in
comparison and it is
> doubtful that the fine will have any independent effect on
behavior.
>
> --
>
> George Schreck
> gschreckchat@comcast.net
> (503) 502-0425
>
> -------------- Original message --------------
> From: "Erik Long"
>
> > So, what kind of punishment is appropriate for negligence
resulting in an
> > accidental death? A few months in prison? Maybe a few years?
A slap on
> > the wrist is completely insufficient for such an act, but
prison time for
> an
> > involuntary manslaughter is overkill and just costs
everybody in the long
> > run. A stiff fine o f $12, 000 is appropriate as motivation
for drivers pay
> > attention to where the hell their bumper is going.
> >
> > $12k may sting, but prison will ruin a lot more than your
bank account.
> >
> >
> >
> > ----Original Message Follows----
> > From: gschreckchat@comcast.net
> > To: "Curt Dewees"
> > CC: OBRA list
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] HB 3314
> > Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 18:02:19 +0000
> >
> > So we all will feel better after someone dies because the
drive paid a
> > $12,000 fine and/or performed some community service. The
punishment
> should
> > depend on the nature of the act and not who the victim was
in the case of
> a
> > road accident. Accidents happen sometimes. If it is beyond
that, then
> > there should be punishment appropriate to the act.
> >
> > --
&g t; > ;
> > George Schreck
> > gschreckchat@comcast.net
> > (503) 502-0425
> >
> > -------------- Original message --------------
> > From: "Curt Dewees"
> >
> > > George,
> > > This bill is an attempt to provide our police officers
with the tools
> > > they need to do something fair and just at the scene of
many so-called
> > > "accidents". Several times a year we read about drivers
who "got the
> > > sun in their eyes" or just "didn't see" the cyclist or
pedestrian and
> > > then hit and killed the cyclist and pedestrian. Since it
was an
> > > "accident" and not an intentional killing, all the police
can do at
> > > the present is issue a citation for "failure to yield to
pedestrian in
> > > crosswalk" or some other minor infraction like that.
> > >
> > > The police just don't have any tools to deal with these
situations in
> > > a just and fair manner. Most of the time the drivers don't
even have
> > > to show up in court and face their victims families. They
just send in
> > > a check with their citation, and they are off scot-free
(except for
> > > paying the minor traffic fine).
> > >
> > > This bill is meant to address this inequity, and give
police officers
> > > the tool they need to really make drivers pay attention
and show up in
> > > court and apologize to the victims' families and take some
remedial
> > > driver's ed classes and make some restitution to the
community after
> > > they hit and kill a cyclist or pedestrian because of their
own
> > > carelessness and/or inattentiveness.
> > >
> > > This is a good bill, and everyone who walks or rides a
bike on or near
& gt; &g t; > public roads should gladly support it.
> > >
> > > Curt Dewees
> > >
> > > On 6/5/07, gschreckchat@comcast.net wrote:
> > > >
> > > > ... I do not see the point of this legislation,
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> >
_________________________________________________________________
> > Get a preview of Live Earth, the hottest event this summer -
only on MSN
> > http://liveearth.msn.com?source=msntaglineliveearthhm
> >
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
> Like puzzles? Play free games & earn great prizes. Play Clink
now.
> http://clu b.live .com/clink.aspx?icid=clink_hotmailtextlink2
>
Good point, but it does not mean i have to support something I think is a bad idea.
Still, I should have an alternative and will try think of one to suggest to Mr. Brown. Of course, failure is an option.
--
George Schreck
gschreckchat@comcast.net
(503) 502-0425
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Erik Long"
> You fail to offer an alternative, G
>
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: gschreckchat@comcast.net
> To: "Erik Long" , obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] HB 3314
> Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 21:13:55 +0000
>
> Yes, I guess without a $12,000 fine, people will not be concerned about
> killing someone with their vehicle. Rigth of course. If it were not for
> the possibiltiy of fines, I would do all my driving on sidewalks at rush
> hour to save time and the hell with those pesky pedestrians. This bill
> makes no sense at all.
>
> If someone kills someone on a highway and their conduct rises to the level
> of a bad act, they sohuld be punished. If the act is not in that vein, then
> it should not matter who was injured. It is not as if $12,000 in any way
> relates to the gravity of someone getting killed. The significance of that
> event is severe enough that it makes the fine pale in comparison and it is
> doubtful that the fine will have any independent effect on behavior.
>
> --
>
> George Schreck
> gschreckchat@comcast.net
> (503) 502-0425
>
> -------------- Original message --------------
> From: "Erik Long"
>
> > So, what kind of punishment is appropriate for negligence resulting in an
> > accidental death? A few months in prison? Maybe a few years? A slap on
> > the wrist is completely insufficient for such an act, but prison time for
> an
> > involuntary manslaughter is overkill and just costs everybody in the long
> > run. A stiff fine of $12,000 is appropriate as motivation for drivers pay
> > attention to where the hell their bumper is going.
> >
> > $12k may sting, but prison will ruin a lot more than your bank account.
> >
> >
> >
> > ----Original Message Follows----
> > From: gschreckchat@comcast.net
> > To: "Curt Dewees"
> > CC: OBRA list
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] HB 3314
> > Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 18:02:19 +0000
> >
> > So we all will feel better after someone dies because the drive paid a
> > $12,000 fine and/or performed some community service. The punishment
> should
> > depend on the nature of the act and not who the victim was in the case of
> a
> > road accident. Accidents happen sometimes. If it is beyond that, then
> > there should be punishment appropriate to the act.
> >
> > --
> >
> > George Schreck
> > gschreckchat@comcast.net
> > (503) 502-0425
> >
> > -------------- Original message --------------
> > From: "Curt Dewees"
> >
> > > George,
> > > This bill is an attempt to provide our police officers with the tools
> > > they need to do something fair and just at the scene of many so-called
> > > "accidents". Several times a year we read about drivers who "got the
> > > sun in their eyes" or just "didn't see" the cyclist or pedestrian and
> > > then hit and killed the cyclist and pedestrian. Since it was an
> > > "accident" and not an intentional killing, all the police can do at
> > > the present is issue a citation for "failure to yield to pedestrian in
> > > crosswalk" or some other minor infraction like that.
> > >
> > > The police just don't have any tools to deal with these situations in
> > > a just and fair manner. Most of the time the drivers don't even have
> > > to show up in court and face their victims families. They just send in
> > > a check with their citation, and they are off scot-free (except for
> > > paying the minor traffic fine).
> > >
> > > This bill is meant to address this inequity, and give police officers
> > > the tool they need to really make drivers pay attention and show up in
> > > court and apologize to the victims' families and take some remedial
> > > driver's ed classes and make some restitution to the community after
> > > they hit and kill a cyclist or pedestrian because of their own
> > > carelessness and/or inattentiveness.
> > >
> > > This is a good bill, and everyone who walks or rides a bike on or near
> > > public roads should gladly support it.
> > >
> > > Curt Dewees
> > >
> > > On 6/5/07, gschreckchat@comcast.net wrote:
> > > >
> > > > ... I do not see the point of this legislation,
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Get a preview of Live Earth, the hottest event this summer - only on MSN
> > http://liveearth.msn.com?source=msntaglineliveearthhm
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Like puzzles? Play free games & earn great prizes. Play Clink now.
> http://club.live.com/clink.aspx?icid=clink_hotmailtextlink2
>
gschreckchat wrote:
> >
> We need to make the roads safer and raise awareness, but it is a bit late in the game to a driver after someone dies. That does nothing. Better to have fines for harassment and spend money on wider shoulders on the roads.
>
I have a good idea:
have schools districts teach drivers ed once more, get the kids out of thoes g**d****d simlutors (or worse... Sears Driving Schools) and then perhaps you will see better drivers on the road.
If you want to strengthen laws for motorist that hit and kill poeple, then lets toughen the DUII laws/enforcement in this part of the country...
Otherwise, I agree with George, this is one bill that is so poorly thought out that it is throwing the baby out with the bath water and putting in strict interpretations that will not meet the burden of proof for all circumstances.
Okay... back to work...
You fail to offer an alternative, G
----Original Message Follows----
From: gschreckchat@comcast.net
To: "Erik Long" , obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] HB 3314
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 21:13:55 +0000
Yes, I guess without a $12,000 fine, people will not be concerned about
killing someone with their vehicle. Rigth of course. If it were not for
the possibiltiy of fines, I would do all my driving on sidewalks at rush
hour to save time and the hell with those pesky pedestrians. This bill
makes no sense at all.
If someone kills someone on a highway and their conduct rises to the level
of a bad act, they sohuld be punished. If the act is not in that vein, then
it should not matter who was injured. It is not as if $12,000 in any way
relates to the gravity of someone getting killed. The significance of that
event is severe enough that it makes the fine pale in comparison and it is
doubtful that the fine will have any independent effect on behavior.
--
George Schreck
gschreckchat@comcast.net
(503) 502-0425
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Erik Long"
> So, what kind of punishment is appropriate for negligence resulting in an
> accidental death? A few months in prison? Maybe a few years? A slap on
> the wrist is completely insufficient for such an act, but prison time for
an
> involuntary manslaughter is overkill and just costs everybody in the long
> run. A stiff fine of $12,000 is appropriate as motivation for drivers pay
> attention to where the hell their bumper is going.
>
> $12k may sting, but prison will ruin a lot more than your bank account.
>
>
>
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: gschreckchat@comcast.net
> To: "Curt Dewees"
> CC: OBRA list
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] HB 3314
> Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 18:02:19 +0000
>
> So we all will feel better after someone dies because the drive paid a
> $12,000 fine and/or performed some community service. The punishment
should
> depend on the nature of the act and not who the victim was in the case of
a
> road accident. Accidents happen sometimes. If it is beyond that, then
> there should be punishment appropriate to the act.
>
> --
>
> George Schreck
> gschreckchat@comcast.net
> (503) 502-0425
>
> -------------- Original message --------------
> From: "Curt Dewees"
>
> > George,
> > This bill is an attempt to provide our police officers with the tools
> > they need to do something fair and just at the scene of many so-called
> > "accidents". Several times a year we read about drivers who "got the
> > sun in their eyes" or just "didn't see" the cyclist or pedestrian and
> > then hit and killed the cyclist and pedestrian. Since it was an
> > "accident" and not an intentional killing, all the police can do at
> > the present is issue a citation for "failure to yield to pedestrian in
> > crosswalk" or some other minor infraction like that.
> >
> > The police just don't have any tools to deal with these situations in
> > a just and fair manner. Most of the time the drivers don't even have
> > to show up in court and face their victims families. They just send in
> > a check with their citation, and they are off scot-free (except for
> > paying the minor traffic fine).
> >
> > This bill is meant to address this inequity, and give police officers
> > the tool they need to really make drivers pay attention and show up in
> > court and apologize to the victims' families and take some remedial
> > driver's ed classes and make some restitution to the community after
> > they hit and kill a cyclist or pedestrian because of their own
> > carelessness and/or inattentiveness.
> >
> > This is a good bill, and everyone who walks or rides a bike on or near
> > public roads should gladly support it.
> >
> > Curt Dewees
> >
> > On 6/5/07, gschreckchat@comcast.net wrote:
> > >
> > > ... I do not see the point of this legislation,
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get a preview of Live Earth, the hottest event this summer - only on MSN
> http://liveearth.msn.com?source=msntaglineliveearthhm
>
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Why? If an accident occurs, I think given the severity the person who killed the cyclist already is significantly detered. I do not see what else it adds.
Also, why should the penalty be more that for killing another motorist other than the fact that it makes some of us feel better (not a good basis for a law).
This will not deter people given the fact that the event itself is so mush more severe than the fine. It is not as if someone is gonig to decide to avoid killing someomne because it will cost $12,000.
Again, all this does it make us feel better, which is a bad reason. If the act warrants a sanction, then there should be one, but for all such events, not selected ones based on a class.
Also, accidents do happen due to conditions such as ice, snow, fog, seizures, passing out for reasons beyond control, etc, If there is negligence, but it does not rise to a crime, there always is a civil suit for damages as well. This is not a sensible bill and adds nothing to our safety other than the fact that we all can feel marginally better is someone dies on a bicycle, although how much better is silly given the fact that some did die.
We need to make the roads safer and raise awareness, but it is a bit late in the game to a driver after someone dies. That does nothing. Better to have fines for harassment and spend money on wider shoulders on the roads.
--
George Schreck
gschreckchat@comcast.net
(503) 502-0425
-------------- Original message --------------
From: Steve Brown
> George,
>
> A fine and community service seem much more appropriate than the law
> as it is written now, which is virtually nothing.
>
> Steve
>
> On Jun 5, 2007, at 11:02 AM, gschreckchat@comcast.net wrote:
>
> > So we all will feel better after someone dies because the drive
> > paid a $12,000 fine and/or performed some community service. The
> > punishment should depend on the nature of the act and not who the
> > victim was in the case of a road accident. Accidents happen
> > sometimes. If it is beyond that, then there should be punishment
> > appropriate to the act.
> >
> > --
> >
> > George Schreck
> > gschreckchat@comcast.net
> > (503) 502-0425
> >
> > -------------- Original message --------------
> > From: "Curt Dewees"
> >
> > > George,
> > > This bill is an attempt to provide our police officers with the
> > tools
> > > they need to do something fair and just at the scene of many so-
> > called
> > > "accidents". Several times a year we read about drivers who "got the
> > > sun in their eyes" or just "didn't see" the cyclist or pedestrian
> > and
> > > then hit and killed the cyclist and pedestrian. Since it was an
> > > "accident" and not an intentional killing, all the police can do at
> > > the present is issue a citation for "failure to yield to
> > pedestrian in
> > > crosswalk" or some other minor infraction like that.
> > >
> > > The police just don't have any tools to deal with these
> > situations in
> > > a just and fair manner. Most of the time the drivers don't even have
> > > to show up in court and face their victims families. They just
> > send in
> > > a check with their citation, and they are off scot-free (except for
> > > paying the minor traffic fine).
> > >
> > > This bill is meant to address this inequity, and give police
> > officers
> > > the tool they need to really make drivers pay attention and show
> > up in
> > > court and apologize to the victims' families and take some remedial
> > > driver's ed classes and make some restitution to the community after
> > > they hit and kill a cyclist or pedestrian because of their own
> > > carelessness and/or inattentiveness.
> > >
> > > This is a good bill, and everyone who walks or rides a bike on or
> > near
> > > public roads should gladly support it.
> > >
> > > Curt Dewees
> > >
> > > On 6/5/07, gschreckchat@comcast.net wrote:
> > > >
> > > > ... I do not see the point of this legislation,
>
Yes, I guess without a $12,000 fine, people will not be concerned about killing someone with their vehicle. Rigth of course. If it were not for the possibiltiy of fines, I would do all my driving on sidewalks at rush hour to save time and the hell with those pesky pedestrians. This bill makes no sense at all.
If someone kills someone on a highway and their conduct rises to the level of a bad act, they sohuld be punished. If the act is not in that vein, then it should not matter who was injured. It is not as if $12,000 in any way relates to the gravity of someone getting killed. The significance of that event is severe enough that it makes the fine pale in comparison and it is doubtful that the fine will have any independent effect on behavior.
--
George Schreck
gschreckchat@comcast.net
(503) 502-0425
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Erik Long"
> So, what kind of punishment is appropriate for negligence resulting in an
> accidental death? A few months in prison? Maybe a few years? A slap on
> the wrist is completely insufficient for such an act, but prison time for an
> involuntary manslaughter is overkill and just costs everybody in the long
> run. A stiff fine of $12,000 is appropriate as motivation for drivers pay
> attention to where the hell their bumper is going.
>
> $12k may sting, but prison will ruin a lot more than your bank account.
>
>
>
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: gschreckchat@comcast.net
> To: "Curt Dewees"
> CC: OBRA list
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] HB 3314
> Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 18:02:19 +0000
>
> So we all will feel better after someone dies because the drive paid a
> $12,000 fine and/or performed some community service. The punishment should
> depend on the nature of the act and not who the victim was in the case of a
> road accident. Accidents happen sometimes. If it is beyond that, then
> there should be punishment appropriate to the act.
>
> --
>
> George Schreck
> gschreckchat@comcast.net
> (503) 502-0425
>
> -------------- Original message --------------
> From: "Curt Dewees"
>
> > George,
> > This bill is an attempt to provide our police officers with the tools
> > they need to do something fair and just at the scene of many so-called
> > "accidents". Several times a year we read about drivers who "got the
> > sun in their eyes" or just "didn't see" the cyclist or pedestrian and
> > then hit and killed the cyclist and pedestrian. Since it was an
> > "accident" and not an intentional killing, all the police can do at
> > the present is issue a citation for "failure to yield to pedestrian in
> > crosswalk" or some other minor infraction like that.
> >
> > The police just don't have any tools to deal with these situations in
> > a just and fair manner. Most of the time the drivers don't even have
> > to show up in court and face their victims families. They just send in
> > a check with their citation, and they are off scot-free (except for
> > paying the minor traffic fine).
> >
> > This bill is meant to address this inequity, and give police officers
> > the tool they need to really make drivers pay attention and show up in
> > court and apologize to the victims' families and take some remedial
> > driver's ed classes and make some restitution to the community after
> > they hit and kill a cyclist or pedestrian because of their own
> > carelessness and/or inattentiveness.
> >
> > This is a good bill, and everyone who walks or rides a bike on or near
> > public roads should gladly support it.
> >
> > Curt Dewees
> >
> > On 6/5/07, gschreckchat@comcast.net wrote:
> > >
> > > ... I do not see the point of this legislation,
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get a preview of Live Earth, the hottest event this summer - only on MSN
> http://liveearth.msn.com?source=msntaglineliveearthhm
>
So, what kind of punishment is appropriate for negligence resulting in an
accidental death? A few months in prison? Maybe a few years? A slap on
the wrist is completely insufficient for such an act, but prison time for an
involuntary manslaughter is overkill and just costs everybody in the long
run. A stiff fine of $12,000 is appropriate as motivation for drivers pay
attention to where the hell their bumper is going.
$12k may sting, but prison will ruin a lot more than your bank account.
----Original Message Follows----
From: gschreckchat@comcast.net
To: "Curt Dewees"
CC: OBRA list
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] HB 3314
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 18:02:19 +0000
So we all will feel better after someone dies because the drive paid a
$12,000 fine and/or performed some community service. The punishment should
depend on the nature of the act and not who the victim was in the case of a
road accident. Accidents happen sometimes. If it is beyond that, then
there should be punishment appropriate to the act.
--
George Schreck
gschreckchat@comcast.net
(503) 502-0425
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Curt Dewees"
> George,
> This bill is an attempt to provide our police officers with the tools
> they need to do something fair and just at the scene of many so-called
> "accidents". Several times a year we read about drivers who "got the
> sun in their eyes" or just "didn't see" the cyclist or pedestrian and
> then hit and killed the cyclist and pedestrian. Since it was an
> "accident" and not an intentional killing, all the police can do at
> the present is issue a citation for "failure to yield to pedestrian in
> crosswalk" or some other minor infraction like that.
>
> The police just don't have any tools to deal with these situations in
> a just and fair manner. Most of the time the drivers don't even have
> to show up in court and face their victims families. They just send in
> a check with their citation, and they are off scot-free (except for
> paying the minor traffic fine).
>
> This bill is meant to address this inequity, and give police officers
> the tool they need to really make drivers pay attention and show up in
> court and apologize to the victims' families and take some remedial
> driver's ed classes and make some restitution to the community after
> they hit and kill a cyclist or pedestrian because of their own
> carelessness and/or inattentiveness.
>
> This is a good bill, and everyone who walks or rides a bike on or near
> public roads should gladly support it.
>
> Curt Dewees
>
> On 6/5/07, gschreckchat@comcast.net wrote:
> >
> > ... I do not see the point of this legislation,
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Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
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Get a preview of Live Earth, the hottest event this summer - only on MSN
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George,
A fine and community service seem much more appropriate than the law
as it is written now, which is virtually nothing.
Steve
On Jun 5, 2007, at 11:02 AM, gschreckchat@comcast.net wrote:
> So we all will feel better after someone dies because the drive
> paid a $12,000 fine and/or performed some community service. The
> punishment should depend on the nature of the act and not who the
> victim was in the case of a road accident. Accidents happen
> sometimes. If it is beyond that, then there should be punishment
> appropriate to the act.
>
> --
>
> George Schreck
> gschreckchat@comcast.net
> (503) 502-0425
>
> -------------- Original message --------------
> From: "Curt Dewees"
>
> > George,
> > This bill is an attempt to provide our police officers with the
> tools
> > they need to do something fair and just at the scene of many so-
> called
> > "accidents". Several times a year we read about drivers who "got the
> > sun in their eyes" or just "didn't see" the cyclist or pedestrian
> and
> > then hit and killed the cyclist and pedestrian. Since it was an
> > "accident" and not an intentional killing, all the police can do at
> > the present is issue a citation for "failure to yield to
> pedestrian in
> > crosswalk" or some other minor infraction like that.
> >
> > The police just don't have any tools to deal with these
> situations in
> > a just and fair manner. Most of the time the drivers don't even have
> > to show up in court and face their victims families. They just
> send in
> > a check with their citation, and they are off scot-free (except for
> > paying the minor traffic fine).
> >
> > This bill is meant to address this inequity, and give police
> officers
> > the tool they need to really make drivers pay attention and show
> up in
> > court and apologize to the victims' families and take some remedial
> > driver's ed classes and make some restitution to the community after
> > they hit and kill a cyclist or pedestrian because of their own
> > carelessness and/or inattentiveness.
> >
> > This is a good bill, and everyone who walks or rides a bike on or
> near
> > public roads should gladly support it.
> >
> > Curt Dewees
> >
> > On 6/5/07, gschreckchat@comcast.net wrote:
> > >
> > > ... I do not see the point of this legislation,
So we all will feel better after someone dies because the drive paid a $12,000 fine and/or performed some community service. The punishment should depend on the nature of the act and not who the victim was in the case of a road accident. Accidents happen sometimes. If it is beyond that, then there should be punishment appropriate to the act.
--
George Schreck
gschreckchat@comcast.net
(503) 502-0425
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Curt Dewees"
> George,
> This bill is an attempt to provide our police officers with the tools
> they need to do something fair and just at the scene of many so-called
> "accidents". Several times a year we read about drivers who "got the
> sun in their eyes" or just "didn't see" the cyclist or pedestrian and
> then hit and killed the cyclist and pedestrian. Since it was an
> "accident" and not an intentional killing, all the police can do at
> the present is issue a citation for "failure to yield to pedestrian in
> crosswalk" or some other minor infraction like that.
>
> The police just don't have any tools to deal with these situations in
> a just and fair manner. Most of the time the drivers don't even have
> to show up in court and face their victims families. They just send in
> a check with their citation, and they are off scot-free (except for
> paying the minor traffic fine).
>
> This bill is meant to address this inequity, and give police officers
> the tool they need to really make drivers pay attention and show up in
> court and apologize to the victims' families and take some remedial
> driver's ed classes and make some restitution to the community after
> they hit and kill a cyclist or pedestrian because of their own
> carelessness and/or inattentiveness.
>
> This is a good bill, and everyone who walks or rides a bike on or near
> public roads should gladly support it.
>
> Curt Dewees
>
> On 6/5/07, gschreckchat@comcast.net wrote:
> >
> > ... I do not see the point of this legislation,
George,
Ray Thomas can explain this a lot better than I can. My
understanding of this legislation, the reasoning behind it and what
will develop is as follows. If anyone can Wiki this and improve upon
it please do so. The intent is two fold. First it is to correct the
current law which only allows for regular negligence in the death of
a cyclist caused by motor vehicle. A district attorney must find
special negligence to cite a motorist in the death of a cyclist,
which is hard to prove. The result is the killing a cyclist can be
almost a none offense. Secondly, it is to get people to pay
attention to cyclists on the road. The intent behind this is not to
criminalize the act, it is to warn and educate. The BTA has put a
lot of effort into crafting reasonable legislation to create safer
riding conditions for all riders. This bill and those in the future
are part of a process to make the road safer to cyclists. I think
all of those involved realize that individual actions are the single
best source of safety. Beyond that, this bill is an improvement to
current the current law and is a move in the right direction.
Steve Brown
On Jun 5, 2007, at 8:23 AM, gschreckchat@comcast.net wrote:
> As someone who runs, rides a bike and drives on the roads, is my
> life somehow more valuable if I get killed while riding my bike or
> running than it is if I get killed while driving my car, or it the
> offense by the other driver somewhow more serious? A death on a
> road in any manner is equally serious, and the penalty should not
> vary depending on who they are or what legal activity they were
> doing at the time.
>
> Also, I do not see the point of this legislation, as it assumes
> that by increasing the monetary penalty for killing someone with a
> car that people are less likely to kill someone. It trivializes
> the entire issue as it assumes that drivers have little regard for
> whether they kill someone or not, and that a $12,000 fine will make
> them less likely to kill someone. We are not talking about
> littering here. Drivers do not intentionally kill cyclists and
> runners, and a higher fine will not prevent accidents. If someone
> is so derranged as to intentionally cause a death, the fine will
> not factor in the calculation as no one in that situation commits a
> crime with the expectation of getting caught.
>
> --
>
> George Schreck
> gschreckchat@comcast.net
> (503) 502-0425
>
> -------------- Original message --------------
> From: Steve Brown
>
> > Dear OBRA land,
> >
> > I am writing this afternoon to ask you to consider support for HB
> > 3314, the Vunerable User law for highways, http://bikeportland.org/
> > 2007/06/04/bta-urges-action-on-vulnerable-roadway-users-bill/
> > #more-3889. Please read this and offer your support if you are so
> > inclined.
> >
> > Steve Brown
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
George,
This bill is an attempt to provide our police officers with the tools
they need to do something fair and just at the scene of many so-called
"accidents". Several times a year we read about drivers who "got the
sun in their eyes" or just "didn't see" the cyclist or pedestrian and
then hit and killed the cyclist and pedestrian. Since it was an
"accident" and not an intentional killing, all the police can do at
the present is issue a citation for "failure to yield to pedestrian in
crosswalk" or some other minor infraction like that.
The police just don't have any tools to deal with these situations in
a just and fair manner. Most of the time the drivers don't even have
to show up in court and face their victims families. They just send in
a check with their citation, and they are off scot-free (except for
paying the minor traffic fine).
This bill is meant to address this inequity, and give police officers
the tool they need to really make drivers pay attention and show up in
court and apologize to the victims' families and take some remedial
driver's ed classes and make some restitution to the community after
they hit and kill a cyclist or pedestrian because of their own
carelessness and/or inattentiveness.
This is a good bill, and everyone who walks or rides a bike on or near
public roads should gladly support it.
Curt Dewees
On 6/5/07, gschreckchat@comcast.net wrote:
>
> ... I do not see the point of this legislation,
As someone who runs, rides a bike and drives on the roads, is my life somehow more valuable if I get killed while riding my bike or running than it is if I get killed while driving my car, or it the offense by the other driver somewhow more serious? A death on a road in any manner is equally serious, and the penalty should not vary depending on who they are or what legal activity they were doing at the time.
Also, I do not see the point of this legislation, as it assumes that by increasing the monetary penalty for killing someone with a car that people are less likely to kill someone. It trivializes the entire issue as it assumes that drivers have little regard for whether they kill someone or not, and that a $12,000 fine will make them less likely to kill someone. We are not talking about littering here. Drivers do not intentionally kill cyclists and runners, and a higher fine will not prevent accidents. If someone is so derranged as to intentionally cause a death, the fine will not factor in the calculation as no one in that situation commits a crime with the expectation of getting caught.
--
George Schreck
gschreckchat@comcast.net
(503) 502-0425
-------------- Original message --------------
From: Steve Brown
> Dear OBRA land,
>
> I am writing this afternoon to ask you to consider support for HB
> 3314, the Vunerable User law for highways, http://bikeportland.org/
> 2007/06/04/bta-urges-action-on-vulnerable-roadway-users-bill/
> #more-3889. Please read this and offer your support if you are so
> inclined.
>
> Steve Brown
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
Dear OBRA land,
I am writing this afternoon to ask you to consider support for HB
3314, the Vunerable User law for highways, http://bikeportland.org/
2007/06/04/bta-urges-action-on-vulnerable-roadway-users-bill/
#more-3889. Please read this and offer your support if you are so
inclined.
Steve Brown
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