gschreckchat@comcast.net

Ed-STOP. Both at the sign and before you send another e-mail.

--

George Schreck
gschreckchat@comcast.net
(503) 502-0425

-------------- Original message --------------
From: Edward Kendrick Sr

Yes, occurrences like this happen, when things start getting out of hand.

This is why some dialog and action are appropriate.

I grew up with people who unwillingly served in the SS and others who were driven off their land by invaders. They were all people, like you and me, but wouldn't it be better to have sustainable laws that can be followed without excess?

You may not be crazy, but you may be taking our liberty for granted.

Aaron Coker wrote:
Let me see if I understand this. So you are saying that the SS, who ran the concentration camps during WWII and were responsible for the deaths of 6 million Jews, is akin to the Police Chief in North Plains, OR citing a cyclist for running a stop sign. Call me crazy, but I guess I'm just having a hard time making that connection.

-Aaron Coker

Edward Kendrick Sr wrote:
Ben Franklin described our gov't as a republic, if we can keep it. All of us
should keep watch over this, because it's so easy to loose.

In this post 911 world, where we have become desensitized to the extreme acts
of gov't, comparisons to traumatic historical events are very appropriate.

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.

Quenton Conant

well said.

STFU and race!?!?!?!

okay you know the drill... tonight @ PIR or Wed @ Tabor... be there or be
WRONG!

luv y'all

On 7/10/07, Joe Cipale wrote:
>
>
> I have a better idea: Lets quit being keyboard commandos and ride our
> goddamned bikes! Let those who received the tickets get back to us once they
> have had their day in court. Until then, lets put this turd back into the
> toilet where it belongs.
>

--
" There is nothing but atoms and space,
everything else is only an opinion"
- Democritus from Abdera

Devin Flynn

Quote: "...but I can smell a brown shirt just as easily as the next guy."

You are right, the UPS man just dropped off some bikes parts (WHOORAY!), and you are right, they sure can smell bad on a hot day...;)

sorry for the bad joke, just like some of this discussion lately

"Malcolm, Gary" wrote:
v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } Aaron brought up the straw-man SS argument? but I can smell a brown shirt just as easily as the next guy.

Now, back to bike racing?

Gary Malcolm


---------------------------------

From: Craig Austin [mailto:austinc@exponent.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2007 12:06 PM
To: Aaron Coker; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] The behavior of North Plains Police

Gosh, Aaron, you mean you don't think a citation for breaking a law that you know exists, and has existed for decades, is an "extreme act of gov't"?

Yeah, me neither. I don't think you're the crazy one in this conversation, Aaron. There have been quite a few acts of the current administration that I would call "extreme," but I'm not sure a ticket for running a stop sign is one of them. I'm pretty sure that law was on the books pre-9/11.

It's very hard for we the cycling community to maintain any credibility at all when we spout off stuff like this. We sound like a bunch of prima donnas who want "equal treatment" only when it suits us, and "special treatment" the rest of the time. We want cars to give us plenty of room and want drivers to live with the inconvenience of having us on the road, but we don't want to be bound by the traffic laws. We talk the big talk about how bikes can coexist and actually reduce traffic in congested areas, then we stage a Critical Mass, where we purposely go out and clog traffic. Like it or not, this is the image we have in the minds of many in the non-cycling, and particularly law enforcement, communities. If we were responsible, we'd be reminding each other that running stop signs is just as illegal as it is in cars, and as public road users we should respect the traffic laws. I don't stop at every stop sign while riding, but if I get caught running one, it's not the
fault of the police.

Craig

---------------------------------

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org on behalf of Aaron Coker
Sent: Tue 7/10/2007 11:38 AM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] The behavior of North Plains Police

Let me see if I understand this. So you are saying that the SS, who ran the concentration camps during WWII and were responsible for the deaths of 6 million Jews, is akin to the Police Chief in North Plains, OR citing a cyclist for running a stop sign. Call me crazy, but I guess I'm just having a hard time making that connection.

-Aaron Coker

Edward Kendrick Sr wrote:
Ben Franklin described our gov't as a republic, if we can keep it. All of us
should keep watch over this, because it's so easy to loose.

In this post 911 world, where we have become desensitized to the extreme acts
of gov't, comparisons to traumatic historical events are very appropriate.

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

---------------------------------
Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase.

Joe Cipale

I have a better idea: Lets quit being keyboard commandos and ride our goddamned bikes! Let those who received the tickets get back to us once they have had their day in court. Until then, lets put this turd back into the toilet where it belongs.

Quenton Conant

So, maybe i'm the exception to the rule.

In a majority of my "experiences" with law enforecement I treat the officer with same respect and dignity that I would treat any other person. It seems to work in my favor. However, my compatriots generally tend to cop an attitude, be standoffish, and argumentitive. Guess who gets a ticket or worse.

I'm not saying there are not officers out there who are complete a-holes. I am saying that people are people no matter whre you go, so you're (your?) bound to find a mix no matter where you look--be it cyclists, police, panhandlers, etc.

Powerless people whine. I'm not saying you should stand there and take it if you're being wronged. By all means stand your ground and show personal integrity if you're in the right and you know it. If you break the law, and you know better, don't get mad just because you got caught.

Malcolm, Gary

Craig,

There are those who love rules and those who love freedom.

It's not crazy to dislike railings on the Grand Canyon, neighborhood
enforced lawn mowing, pasteurized fruit juice or stop signs in the middle of
nowhere. You have just grown jaded to the ever creeping "rule of law" into
places where society has no business. Occasionally you can expect some of us
to chafe under the harness of your comfortable wardens. I'm sure there's no
harm in ignoring us while you "click-it or ticket". You are completely
correct in the supposition that voicing our disgust at the North Plains
traffic stop serves no purpose, especially in our current environment.

Aaron brought up the straw-man SS argument... but I can smell a brown shirt
just as easily as the next guy.

Now, back to bike racing...

Gary Malcolm

_____

From: Craig Austin [mailto:austinc@exponent.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2007 12:06 PM
To: Aaron Coker; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] The behavior of North Plains Police

Gosh, Aaron, you mean you don't think a citation for breaking a law that you
know exists, and has existed for decades, is an "extreme act of gov't"?

Yeah, me neither. I don't think you're the crazy one in this conversation,
Aaron. There have been quite a few acts of the current administration that I
would call "extreme," but I'm not sure a ticket for running a stop sign is
one of them. I'm pretty sure that law was on the books pre-9/11.

It's very hard for we the cycling community to maintain any credibility at
all when we spout off stuff like this. We sound like a bunch of prima donnas
who want "equal treatment" only when it suits us, and "special treatment"
the rest of the time. We want cars to give us plenty of room and want
drivers to live with the inconvenience of having us on the road, but we
don't want to be bound by the traffic laws. We talk the big talk about how
bikes can coexist and actually reduce traffic in congested areas, then we
stage a Critical Mass, where we purposely go out and clog traffic. Like it
or not, this is the image we have in the minds of many in the non-cycling,
and particularly law enforcement, communities. If we were responsible, we'd
be reminding each other that running stop signs is just as illegal as it is
in cars, and as public road users we should respect the traffic laws. I
don't stop at every stop sign while riding, but if I get caught running one,
it's not the fault of the police.

Craig

_____

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org on behalf of Aaron Coker
Sent: Tue 7/10/2007 11:38 AM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] The behavior of North Plains Police

Let me see if I understand this. So you are saying that the SS, who ran the
concentration camps during WWII and were responsible for the deaths of 6
million Jews, is akin to the Police Chief in North Plains, OR citing a
cyclist for running a stop sign. Call me crazy, but I guess I'm just having
a hard time making that connection.

-Aaron Coker

Edward Kendrick Sr wrote:
Ben Franklin described our gov't as a republic, if we can keep it. All of
us
should keep watch over this, because it's so easy to loose.

In this post 911 world, where we have become desensitized to the extreme
acts
of gov't, comparisons to traumatic historical events are very appropriate.

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra

Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Edward Kendrick Sr

Yes, occurrences like this happen, when things start getting out of hand.

This is why some dialog and action are appropriate.

I grew up with people who unwillingly served in the SS and others who were driven off their land by invaders. They were all people, like you and me, but wouldn't it be better to have sustainable laws that can be followed without excess?

You may not be crazy, but you may be taking our liberty for granted.

Aaron Coker wrote:
Let me see if I understand this. So you are saying that the SS, who ran the concentration camps during WWII and were responsible for the deaths of 6 million Jews, is akin to the Police Chief in North Plains, OR citing a cyclist for running a stop sign. Call me crazy, but I guess I'm just having a hard time making that connection.

-Aaron Coker

Edward Kendrick Sr wrote:
Ben Franklin described our gov't as a republic, if we can keep it. All of us
should keep watch over this, because it's so easy to loose.

In this post 911 world, where we have become desensitized to the extreme acts
of gov't, comparisons to traumatic historical events are very appropriate.

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

---------------------------------
Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.

Craig Austin

Gosh, Aaron, you mean you don't think a citation for breaking a law that you know exists, and has existed for decades, is an "extreme act of gov't"?

Yeah, me neither. I don't think you're the crazy one in this conversation, Aaron. There have been quite a few acts of the current administration that I would call "extreme," but I'm not sure a ticket for running a stop sign is one of them. I'm pretty sure that law was on the books pre-9/11.

It's very hard for we the cycling community to maintain any credibility at all when we spout off stuff like this. We sound like a bunch of prima donnas who want "equal treatment" only when it suits us, and "special treatment" the rest of the time. We want cars to give us plenty of room and want drivers to live with the inconvenience of having us on the road, but we don't want to be bound by the traffic laws. We talk the big talk about how bikes can coexist and actually reduce traffic in congested areas, then we stage a Critical Mass, where we purposely go out and clog traffic. Like it or not, this is the image we have in the minds of many in the non-cycling, and particularly law enforcement, communities. If we were responsible, we'd be reminding each other that running stop signs is just as illegal as it is in cars, and as public road users we should respect the traffic laws. I don't stop at every stop sign while riding, but if I get caught running one, it's not the fault of the police.

Craig

________________________________

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org on behalf of Aaron Coker
Sent: Tue 7/10/2007 11:38 AM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] The behavior of North Plains Police

Let me see if I understand this. So you are saying that the SS, who ran the concentration camps during WWII and were responsible for the deaths of 6 million Jews, is akin to the Police Chief in North Plains, OR citing a cyclist for running a stop sign. Call me crazy, but I guess I'm just having a hard time making that connection.

-Aaron Coker

Edward Kendrick Sr wrote:
Ben Franklin described our gov't as a republic, if we can keep it. All of us
should keep watch over this, because it's so easy to loose.

In this post 911 world, where we have become desensitized to the extreme acts
of gov't, comparisons to traumatic historical events are very appropriate.

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Tim Schauer

As one of the initial people that started this thread of discussion and one of the three people who got a $335 ticket....I wish I could "un-ring" the bell that started this whole discussion, it seems to have morphed into something unproductive. I'd say STOP! but that would seem inappropriately ironic coming from me...considering that my alleged lack of stopping started this fire....

There have been some very thoughtful and productive "closure on this issue" emails posted in the last 24 hours. Thank you to those people. ...We appear for our tickets next Monday. We'll let you all know how it goes. Can it rest until then???

thanks,

Tim Schauer

________________________________

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org on behalf of Aaron Coker
Sent: Tue 7/10/2007 11:38 AM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] The behavior of North Plains Police

Let me see if I understand this. So you are saying that the SS, who ran the concentration camps during WWII and were responsible for the deaths of 6 million Jews, is akin to the Police Chief in North Plains, OR citing a cyclist for running a stop sign. Call me crazy, but I guess I'm just having a hard time making that connection.

-Aaron Coker

Edward Kendrick Sr wrote:
Ben Franklin described our gov't as a republic, if we can keep it. All of us
should keep watch over this, because it's so easy to loose.

In this post 911 world, where we have become desensitized to the extreme acts
of gov't, comparisons to traumatic historical events are very appropriate.

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Rick Johnson

Yet another sign that it has gone on long enough...

Brian Engelen wrote:

>Godwin's Law
>>From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
>
>Godwin's Law (also known as Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies)[1] is an adage
>that Mike Godwin formulated in 1990. The law states:[2]
>
>As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison
>involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.
>
>
>Brian
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
>Behalf Of Aaron Coker
>Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2007 11:39 AM
>To: obra@list.obra.org
>Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] The behavior of North Plains Police
>
>Let me see if I understand this. So you are saying that the SS, who ran the
>concentration camps during WWII and were responsible for the deaths of 6
>million Jews, is akin to the Police Chief in North Plains, OR citing a
>cyclist for running a stop sign. Call me crazy, but I guess I'm just having
>a hard time making that connection.
>
>-Aaron Coker
>
>Edward Kendrick Sr wrote:
>Ben Franklin described our gov't as a republic, if we can keep it. All of
>us
>should keep watch over this, because it's so easy to loose.
>
> In this post 911 world, where we have become desensitized to the extreme
>acts
>of gov't, comparisons to traumatic historical events are very appropriate.
>
>_______________________________________________
>OBRA mailing list
>obra@list.obra.org
>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>_______________________________________________
>OBRA mailing list
>obra@list.obra.org
>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
>

Brian Engelen

Godwin's Law
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Godwin's Law (also known as Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies)[1] is an adage
that Mike Godwin formulated in 1990. The law states:[2]

As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison
involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.

Brian

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Aaron Coker
Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2007 11:39 AM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] The behavior of North Plains Police

Let me see if I understand this. So you are saying that the SS, who ran the
concentration camps during WWII and were responsible for the deaths of 6
million Jews, is akin to the Police Chief in North Plains, OR citing a
cyclist for running a stop sign. Call me crazy, but I guess I'm just having
a hard time making that connection.

-Aaron Coker

Edward Kendrick Sr wrote:
Ben Franklin described our gov't as a republic, if we can keep it. All of
us
should keep watch over this, because it's so easy to loose.

In this post 911 world, where we have become desensitized to the extreme
acts
of gov't, comparisons to traumatic historical events are very appropriate.

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Aaron Coker

Let me see if I understand this. So you are saying that the SS, who ran the concentration camps during WWII and were responsible for the deaths of 6 million Jews, is akin to the Police Chief in North Plains, OR citing a cyclist for running a stop sign. Call me crazy, but I guess I'm just having a hard time making that connection.

-Aaron Coker

Edward Kendrick Sr wrote:
Ben Franklin described our gov't as a republic, if we can keep it. All of us
should keep watch over this, because it's so easy to loose.

In this post 911 world, where we have become desensitized to the extreme acts
of gov't, comparisons to traumatic historical events are very appropriate.

Rick C Johnson

Bob Marley sang:

> Get up, stand up: dont give up the fight!
>
> Most people think,
> Great God will come from the skies,
> Take away everything
> And make everybody feel high.
> But if you know what life is worth,
> You will look for yours on earth:
> And now you see the light,
> You stand up for your rights. jah!
>
> Get up, stand up! (jah, jah!)...

:-)
Rick

Edward Kendrick Sr wrote:

> Ben Franklin described our gov't as a republic, if we can keep it.
> All of us should keep watch over this, because it's so easy to loose.
>
> In this post 911 world, where we have become desensitized to the
> extreme acts of gov't, comparisons to traumatic historical events are
> very appropriate.
>
> */Scott and Cheryl McElroy /* wrote:
>
> Thank you Aaron to bring some rational thought to this ongoing
> diatribe.
> Thankfully I don't get this email chat delivered to my work email,
> or else I
> would go crazy during the day with all the babble. A better
> subject might
> be to talk about how my team mate Jenn Wangerin made the Oregonian
> sports
> section today, and how her achievement is also now promoting track
> racing
> and young women in our community. Oh well.
>
> The Police Chief probably didn't respond exactly as any of us
> would like;
> and as another poster stated we should be happy that he took the
> time to
> respond. As many of you, like me ride all year and roll stop signs
> know, if
> you get caught you get a ticket. Cops deal with all sorts of
> a-holes in
> their job, and they generally see us as a bunch of elitists who
> will bitch
> about anything. Last week on July 4th, I was sprinting and
> inadvertently
> unclipped and went down really hard (35mph) on a sprint with some
> old team
> mates on Skyline. The first to arrive was a state trooper, who was
> extremely attentive to my situation. Someone must have also seen
> how much
> road rash I had, and also called the fire department who showed up
> and were
> really good to me. My point is that these folks are trying to look
> out for
> us, and provide services that maybe some of the riders in our
> community
> don't think apply to them. I assume that some of my tax dollars
> and ticket
> revenue went to support their positions, of which I am thankful.
>
> We can debate whether we should or shouldn't have a real brake on
> a fixie,
> stop signs should be marked "slow and look around" for cyclists
> since we can
> hear and see better than folks in cars (are scooter riders also
> exempt?), or
> whether we should correct the grammar/syntax in response from a police
> chief. However, while we are doing all this, we might consider
> that we are
> sharing the road with others, are the minority with cars, and have
> some
> acceptance of risk while being out on the road. Whenever I talk to a
> non-cyclist about the amount of riding we do on the local roads, they
> overwhelmingly don't get what we are doing and their general
> response is
> irritation for having to slow way down and tail us before they can
> find a
> safe place to finally pass us. Whether we like it or not, drivers are
> performing an accommodation for us on the road everyday. We are
> not usually
> going the speed limit on many roads with no shoulder or bike lane,
> and they
> have to pay special attention to deal with us. We are small
> compared to
> cars, and like it or not they don't see us. If a driver runs us
> down and
> are at fault, they should be cited and penalized. This is a
> separate issue.
> The debate got way off track between penalties and how they may not be
> strong enough for some major offenses.
>
> You can't bring people to our cause by berating them and calling
> them out.
> Win their hearts and minds and we will bring them to understand
> the pastime
> we all love.
>
> Scott McElroy
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
> Behalf Of Aaron Coker
> Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 9:12 PM
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Comment by North Plains Police Chief at
> bikeportland.org
>
> To compare the Police Chief of North Plains to the SS
> (Schutzstaffel) is
> highly irresponsible, and I'm personally offended as I'm sure Chief
> Whitehead would be, as well. Why don't you take a few minutes to
> open a
> history book and read up on what the SS represented in Nazi
> Germany before
> you start throwing insults like that out. As the son a former Police
> Officer I can say that what they deal with day in and day out
> often times
> makes their job thankless.
>
> The Chief was simply doing his job, which is to protect the
> community. I
> don't think we need to pray for him. I think we need to thank him for
> having the courage to stand up for his position and enforce the
> law. It's
> pretty simple, don't run the stop sign and you won't get a ticket.
> Cyclists
> are always bitching about not being given a fair shake while on
> the road,
> but then complain after being cited for disobeying the law. It
> seems like a
> bit of a double standard to me. We all run stop signs from time to
> time.
> I've been pulled over and I know others who have. If we get caught
> we need
> to take responsibility for our actions. If you can't afford a $335
> ticket
> then don't break the damn law.
>
> -Aaron Coker
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Building a website is a piece of cake.
> Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.
>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
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>
>

Edward Kendrick Sr

Ben Franklin described our gov't as a republic, if we can keep it. All of us should keep watch over this, because it's so easy to loose.

In this post 911 world, where we have become desensitized to the extreme acts of gov't, comparisons to traumatic historical events are very appropriate.

Scott and Cheryl McElroy wrote:
Thank you Aaron to bring some rational thought to this ongoing diatribe.
Thankfully I don't get this email chat delivered to my work email, or else I
would go crazy during the day with all the babble. A better subject might
be to talk about how my team mate Jenn Wangerin made the Oregonian sports
section today, and how her achievement is also now promoting track racing
and young women in our community. Oh well.

The Police Chief probably didn't respond exactly as any of us would like;
and as another poster stated we should be happy that he took the time to
respond. As many of you, like me ride all year and roll stop signs know, if
you get caught you get a ticket. Cops deal with all sorts of a-holes in
their job, and they generally see us as a bunch of elitists who will bitch
about anything. Last week on July 4th, I was sprinting and inadvertently
unclipped and went down really hard (35mph) on a sprint with some old team
mates on Skyline. The first to arrive was a state trooper, who was
extremely attentive to my situation. Someone must have also seen how much
road rash I had, and also called the fire department who showed up and were
really good to me. My point is that these folks are trying to look out for
us, and provide services that maybe some of the riders in our community
don't think apply to them. I assume that some of my tax dollars and ticket
revenue went to support their positions, of which I am thankful.

We can debate whether we should or shouldn't have a real brake on a fixie,
stop signs should be marked "slow and look around" for cyclists since we can
hear and see better than folks in cars (are scooter riders also exempt?), or
whether we should correct the grammar/syntax in response from a police
chief. However, while we are doing all this, we might consider that we are
sharing the road with others, are the minority with cars, and have some
acceptance of risk while being out on the road. Whenever I talk to a
non-cyclist about the amount of riding we do on the local roads, they
overwhelmingly don't get what we are doing and their general response is
irritation for having to slow way down and tail us before they can find a
safe place to finally pass us. Whether we like it or not, drivers are
performing an accommodation for us on the road everyday. We are not usually
going the speed limit on many roads with no shoulder or bike lane, and they
have to pay special attention to deal with us. We are small compared to
cars, and like it or not they don't see us. If a driver runs us down and
are at fault, they should be cited and penalized. This is a separate issue.
The debate got way off track between penalties and how they may not be
strong enough for some major offenses.

You can't bring people to our cause by berating them and calling them out.
Win their hearts and minds and we will bring them to understand the pastime
we all love.

Scott McElroy

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Aaron Coker
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 9:12 PM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Comment by North Plains Police Chief at
bikeportland.org

To compare the Police Chief of North Plains to the SS (Schutzstaffel) is
highly irresponsible, and I'm personally offended as I'm sure Chief
Whitehead would be, as well. Why don't you take a few minutes to open a
history book and read up on what the SS represented in Nazi Germany before
you start throwing insults like that out. As the son a former Police
Officer I can say that what they deal with day in and day out often times
makes their job thankless.

The Chief was simply doing his job, which is to protect the community. I
don't think we need to pray for him. I think we need to thank him for
having the courage to stand up for his position and enforce the law. It's
pretty simple, don't run the stop sign and you won't get a ticket. Cyclists
are always bitching about not being given a fair shake while on the road,
but then complain after being cited for disobeying the law. It seems like a
bit of a double standard to me. We all run stop signs from time to time.
I've been pulled over and I know others who have. If we get caught we need
to take responsibility for our actions. If you can't afford a $335 ticket
then don't break the damn law.

-Aaron Coker
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