OBRA: OBRA Chat: Vino's reality:

Michael O'Hair

2007-07-26

So why is almost all of the doping/blood exchanges/etc. taking place in
hotels? Why were/are so many of the riders charged for the drugs they were
given? Talk about cynical manipulation.

Let's get one thing straight. Riding professionally is NOT a job. It's a
quest/mania/obsession. Just like most inherently pyramid-shaped groups (
professional sports and show business are the most obvious ), 2% of the
players make most of the money and the other 98% scuffle for a living.

We all suffer from the same syndrome, just at different levels.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Erik Long"
To: ;
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2007 11:43 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Vino's reality:

> Racing in the States is cleaner than in Europe. The main reason being
> that
> American Cycling doesn't pay well enough to dope. Sure, you can run
> across
> the Mexican border for cheap EPO, but the good drugs that are difficult to
> test for are very expensive. And using these substances effectively and
> safely requires the help of a doctor, which is mandatory personell on a
> UCI
> Pro Tour team, but not a realistic commodity for the budget of a North
> American "Pro" Team.
>
> Furthermore, with the aid of a good medical professional, one can combine
> several different performance enhancers with other means of enhancement -
> such as Homologus Blood doping - and you have an extraordinarily very fast
> human being.
>
> A 15% difference in performance between two sets of professional athletes
> is
> a drastic difference, Mike. This is not a minor enough difference to be
> explained by training, culture, genetics or any combination of the three.
>
> A clean rider, no matter how talented, just cannot be competitive in the
> Pro
> Tour peloton as it is today.
>
>
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: "Mike Murray"
> Reply-To: mike.murray@obra.org
> To:
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Vino's reality:
> Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 10:59:26 -0700
>
> To follow your logic:
> - Euro-pro watt average is 15% higher than American pro
> - Doping must be the cause.
>
> Am I missing something there? Is there an implicate assumption that US
> riders are not doping and European riders are? What would support that
> assumption?
>
> Proposing a 10% performance improvement from doping is difficult to
> justify.
> Certainly there is nothing to suggest anything that large with steroids,
> growth hormone, amphetamines, etc. EPO or blood doping can produce an
> improvement but across the board 10% increase is too much. Possibly in a
> competitor that started with a low end hematocrit and was increased to a
> high end hematocrit but in competitors that have higher hematocrits
> already
> there would be marginal benefit.
>
> Mike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Erik Long [mailto:elongride@hotmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 13:46 PM
> To: mike.murray@obra.org; obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Vino's reality:
>
>
> I don't know about that, Mike. Thanks to the popularization of wattage
> meters, we now know that the average euro-pro puts out 15% higher wattage
> than the average North Amercan Pro.
>
> I've known quite a few American professionals who have bounced between
> here
> and there. One recounted to me an occasion when he had super form, won a
> couple NRC events, then went over to europe and was dropped every day,
> even
> with race-winning fitness. The 10% gain that the dope can give you is a
> huge difference. 10% is the time cut in some of these races. If it was a
> minor difference, there wouldn't be so many athletes on the 'Puerto list.
>
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: "Mike Murray"
> Reply-To: mike.murray@obra.org
> To:
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Vino's reality:
> Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 12:40:51 -0700
>
> Erik Long wrote:
> "If he'd been "racing clean" all these years, riding in the environment
> of
> the doped-up super-peloton, he'd have been a mediocre domestique, at
> best."
>
> This statement considerably over estimates the benefits provided by doping
> practices. Doped or not doped a good rider will be a good rider and a
> mediocre rider will be a mediocre rider. The doped rider MAY be a bit
> faster than he would have been not doped but the difference is not the
> same
> as the difference between good and mediocre.
>
> Mike Murray
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
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> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
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>
>
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>

gschreckchat@comcast.net

2007-07-26

I have little reason to beleive that any riders connected to Bruyneel or Ris to be any different. Also, all of those riders except Horner were on Postal during the years when their hematocrits were around 49% in testing at the 1999 Tour, when there was no EPO test (subsequently Armstrong's blood tested postitive from that year) and all they could go on was hematocrit levels. I believe they doped then, and have little reason to believe they stopped; just became more clever in their approach. It would be nice to believe otherwise, but it is hard when the average speeds keep increasing.

--

George Schreck
gschreckchat@comcast.net
(503) 502-0425

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Mike Murray"

> Erik Long [mailto:elongride@hotmail.com] wrote:
> "A clean rider, no matter how talented, just cannot be competitive in the
> Pro Tour peloton as it is today."
>
> Does this include the Americans currently doing well in the tour?
>
> 3. LEIPHEIMER Levi
> 14. HORNER Christopher
> 24. VANDEVELDE Christian
> 26. HINCAPIE George
>
> Mike Murray
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Gordon Cumming

2007-07-26

Why would we consider the American's any different? Same pressure to succeed, same pressure to keep their high paying JOB.

Gordon
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Erik Long"
> Yes.
>
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: "Mike Murray"
> Reply-To: mike.murray@obra.org
> To:
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Vino's reality:
> Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 12:20:55 -0700
>
> Erik Long [mailto:elongride@hotmail.com] wrote:
> "A clean rider, no matter how talented, just cannot be competitive in the
> Pro Tour peloton as it is today."
>
> Does this include the Americans currently doing well in the tour?
>
> 3. LEIPHEIMER Levi
> 14. HORNER Christopher
> 24. VANDEVELDE Christian
> 26. HINCAPIE George
>
> Mike Murray
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Need a brain boost? Recharge with a stimulating game. Play now!?
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>

Erik Long

2007-07-26

Yes.

----Original Message Follows----
From: "Mike Murray"
Reply-To: mike.murray@obra.org
To:
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Vino's reality:
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 12:20:55 -0700

Erik Long [mailto:elongride@hotmail.com] wrote:
"A clean rider, no matter how talented, just cannot be competitive in the
Pro Tour peloton as it is today."

Does this include the Americans currently doing well in the tour?

3. LEIPHEIMER Levi
14. HORNER Christopher
24. VANDEVELDE Christian
26. HINCAPIE George

Mike Murray

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Mike Murray

2007-07-26

Erik Long [mailto:elongride@hotmail.com] wrote:
"A clean rider, no matter how talented, just cannot be competitive in the
Pro Tour peloton as it is today."

Does this include the Americans currently doing well in the tour?

3. LEIPHEIMER Levi
14. HORNER Christopher
24. VANDEVELDE Christian
26. HINCAPIE George

Mike Murray

Dan H

2007-07-26

How about if our theoretical subject does steroids, blood packing, EPO,
growth hormone and amphetamines? If each practice only produced 2%
performance boost, that would equal 10%. Assuming he doesn't croak from MCI,
embolism and stroke, could he then get 10% faster? (Warning to people who
do not get my dry sense of humor: kidding.)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Murray"
To:
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2007 10:59 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Vino's reality:

To follow your logic:
- Euro-pro watt average is 15% higher than American pro
- Doping must be the cause.

Am I missing something there? Is there an implicate assumption that US
riders are not doping and European riders are? What would support that
assumption?

Proposing a 10% performance improvement from doping is difficult to justify.
Certainly there is nothing to suggest anything that large with steroids,
growth hormone, amphetamines, etc. EPO or blood doping can produce an
improvement but across the board 10% increase is too much. Possibly in a
competitor that started with a low end hematocrit and was increased to a
high end hematocrit but in competitors that have higher hematocrits already
there would be marginal benefit.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: Erik Long [mailto:elongride@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 13:46 PM
To: mike.murray@obra.org; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Vino's reality:

I don't know about that, Mike. Thanks to the popularization of wattage
meters, we now know that the average euro-pro puts out 15% higher wattage
than the average North Amercan Pro.

I've known quite a few American professionals who have bounced between here
and there. One recounted to me an occasion when he had super form, won a
couple NRC events, then went over to europe and was dropped every day, even
with race-winning fitness. The 10% gain that the dope can give you is a
huge difference. 10% is the time cut in some of these races. If it was a
minor difference, there wouldn't be so many athletes on the 'Puerto list.

----Original Message Follows----
From: "Mike Murray"
Reply-To: mike.murray@obra.org
To:
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Vino's reality:
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 12:40:51 -0700

Erik Long wrote:
"If he'd been "racing clean" all these years, riding in the environment of
the doped-up super-peloton, he'd have been a mediocre domestique, at best."

This statement considerably over estimates the benefits provided by doping
practices. Doped or not doped a good rider will be a good rider and a
mediocre rider will be a mediocre rider. The doped rider MAY be a bit
faster than he would have been not doped but the difference is not the same
as the difference between good and mediocre.

Mike Murray

_______________________________________________
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Erik Long

2007-07-26

Racing in the States is cleaner than in Europe. The main reason being that
American Cycling doesn't pay well enough to dope. Sure, you can run across
the Mexican border for cheap EPO, but the good drugs that are difficult to
test for are very expensive. And using these substances effectively and
safely requires the help of a doctor, which is mandatory personell on a UCI
Pro Tour team, but not a realistic commodity for the budget of a North
American "Pro" Team.

Furthermore, with the aid of a good medical professional, one can combine
several different performance enhancers with other means of enhancement -
such as Homologus Blood doping - and you have an extraordinarily very fast
human being.

A 15% difference in performance between two sets of professional athletes is
a drastic difference, Mike. This is not a minor enough difference to be
explained by training, culture, genetics or any combination of the three.

A clean rider, no matter how talented, just cannot be competitive in the Pro
Tour peloton as it is today.

----Original Message Follows----
From: "Mike Murray"
Reply-To: mike.murray@obra.org
To:
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Vino's reality:
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 10:59:26 -0700

To follow your logic:
- Euro-pro watt average is 15% higher than American pro
- Doping must be the cause.

Am I missing something there? Is there an implicate assumption that US
riders are not doping and European riders are? What would support that
assumption?

Proposing a 10% performance improvement from doping is difficult to justify.
Certainly there is nothing to suggest anything that large with steroids,
growth hormone, amphetamines, etc. EPO or blood doping can produce an
improvement but across the board 10% increase is too much. Possibly in a
competitor that started with a low end hematocrit and was increased to a
high end hematocrit but in competitors that have higher hematocrits already
there would be marginal benefit.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: Erik Long [mailto:elongride@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 13:46 PM
To: mike.murray@obra.org; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Vino's reality:

I don't know about that, Mike. Thanks to the popularization of wattage
meters, we now know that the average euro-pro puts out 15% higher wattage
than the average North Amercan Pro.

I've known quite a few American professionals who have bounced between here
and there. One recounted to me an occasion when he had super form, won a
couple NRC events, then went over to europe and was dropped every day, even
with race-winning fitness. The 10% gain that the dope can give you is a
huge difference. 10% is the time cut in some of these races. If it was a
minor difference, there wouldn't be so many athletes on the 'Puerto list.

----Original Message Follows----
From: "Mike Murray"
Reply-To: mike.murray@obra.org
To:
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Vino's reality:
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 12:40:51 -0700

Erik Long wrote:
"If he'd been "racing clean" all these years, riding in the environment of
the doped-up super-peloton, he'd have been a mediocre domestique, at best."

This statement considerably over estimates the benefits provided by doping
practices. Doped or not doped a good rider will be a good rider and a
mediocre rider will be a mediocre rider. The doped rider MAY be a bit
faster than he would have been not doped but the difference is not the same
as the difference between good and mediocre.

Mike Murray

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
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Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

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Mike Murray

2007-07-26

To follow your logic:
- Euro-pro watt average is 15% higher than American pro
- Doping must be the cause.

Am I missing something there? Is there an implicate assumption that US
riders are not doping and European riders are? What would support that
assumption?

Proposing a 10% performance improvement from doping is difficult to justify.
Certainly there is nothing to suggest anything that large with steroids,
growth hormone, amphetamines, etc. EPO or blood doping can produce an
improvement but across the board 10% increase is too much. Possibly in a
competitor that started with a low end hematocrit and was increased to a
high end hematocrit but in competitors that have higher hematocrits already
there would be marginal benefit.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: Erik Long [mailto:elongride@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 13:46 PM
To: mike.murray@obra.org; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Vino's reality:

I don't know about that, Mike. Thanks to the popularization of wattage
meters, we now know that the average euro-pro puts out 15% higher wattage
than the average North Amercan Pro.

I've known quite a few American professionals who have bounced between here
and there. One recounted to me an occasion when he had super form, won a
couple NRC events, then went over to europe and was dropped every day, even
with race-winning fitness. The 10% gain that the dope can give you is a
huge difference. 10% is the time cut in some of these races. If it was a
minor difference, there wouldn't be so many athletes on the 'Puerto list.

----Original Message Follows----
From: "Mike Murray"
Reply-To: mike.murray@obra.org
To:
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Vino's reality:
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 12:40:51 -0700

Erik Long wrote:
"If he'd been "racing clean" all these years, riding in the environment of
the doped-up super-peloton, he'd have been a mediocre domestique, at best."

This statement considerably over estimates the benefits provided by doping
practices. Doped or not doped a good rider will be a good rider and a
mediocre rider will be a mediocre rider. The doped rider MAY be a bit
faster than he would have been not doped but the difference is not the same
as the difference between good and mediocre.

Mike Murray

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
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gschreckchat@comcast.net

2007-07-25

Ah yes, it makes sense. His hips would have converted the excess blood to that of a slightly different type of antigens and recirculated it throughout his body. I bet no one else has thought of that.

--

George Schreck
gschreckchat@comcast.net
(503) 502-0425

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Buck, Jeffrey A"

> Vino's side of the story (from cyclingnews.com) ---
>
> Vinokourov: 'I never doped'
>
> Vinokourov told the French sports daily L'Equipe in Wednesday's edition
> that he had not cheated. "It's a mistake. I never doped, that's not the
> way I see my profession," the newspaper quoted him as saying. "I think
> it's a mistake in part due to my crash. I have spoken to the team
> doctors who had a hypothesis that there was an enormous amount of blood
> in my thighs, which could have led to my positive test."
>
> Vinokourov claimed to be the victim of a "provocation." "It's been going
> on for months and today they're managing to demolish me," he said. "The
> setting up of our team made a lot of people jealous and now we're paying
> the price. It's a shame to leave the Tour this way, but I don't want to
> waste time in proving my innocence."
>
> Vinokourov did manage a joke about his situation. "I heard that I made a
> transfusion with my father's blood," Vinokourov said. "That's absurd, I
> can tell you that with his blood, I would have tested positive for
> vodka."
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
> Behalf Of Mike Murray
> Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 12:41 PM
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Vino's reality:
>
> Erik Long wrote:
> "If he'd been "racing clean" all these years, riding in the environment
> of
> the doped-up super-peloton, he'd have been a mediocre domestique, at
> best."
>
> This statement considerably over estimates the benefits provided by
> doping
> practices. Doped or not doped a good rider will be a good rider and a
> mediocre rider will be a mediocre rider. The doped rider MAY be a bit
> faster than he would have been not doped but the difference is not the
> same
> as the difference between good and mediocre.
>
> Mike Murray
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Buck, Jeffrey A

2007-07-25

Vino's side of the story (from cyclingnews.com) ---

Vinokourov: 'I never doped'

Vinokourov told the French sports daily L'Equipe in Wednesday's edition
that he had not cheated. "It's a mistake. I never doped, that's not the
way I see my profession," the newspaper quoted him as saying. "I think
it's a mistake in part due to my crash. I have spoken to the team
doctors who had a hypothesis that there was an enormous amount of blood
in my thighs, which could have led to my positive test."

Vinokourov claimed to be the victim of a "provocation." "It's been going
on for months and today they're managing to demolish me," he said. "The
setting up of our team made a lot of people jealous and now we're paying
the price. It's a shame to leave the Tour this way, but I don't want to
waste time in proving my innocence."

Vinokourov did manage a joke about his situation. "I heard that I made a
transfusion with my father's blood," Vinokourov said. "That's absurd, I
can tell you that with his blood, I would have tested positive for
vodka."

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Mike Murray
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 12:41 PM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Vino's reality:

Erik Long wrote:
"If he'd been "racing clean" all these years, riding in the environment
of
the doped-up super-peloton, he'd have been a mediocre domestique, at
best."

This statement considerably over estimates the benefits provided by
doping
practices. Doped or not doped a good rider will be a good rider and a
mediocre rider will be a mediocre rider. The doped rider MAY be a bit
faster than he would have been not doped but the difference is not the
same
as the difference between good and mediocre.

Mike Murray

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Long, Steve

2007-07-25

But even 1% to 2% in a race is not minor. It's huge!

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Erik Long
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 1:46 PM
To: mike.murray@obra.org; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Vino's reality:

I don't know about that, Mike. Thanks to the popularization of wattage
meters, we now know that the average euro-pro puts out 15% higher
wattage than the average North Amercan Pro.

I've known quite a few American professionals who have bounced between
here and there. One recounted to me an occasion when he had super form,
won a couple NRC events, then went over to europe and was dropped every
day, even with race-winning fitness. The 10% gain that the dope can
give you is a huge difference. 10% is the time cut in some of these
races. If it was a minor difference, there wouldn't be so many athletes
on the 'Puerto list.

----Original Message Follows----
From: "Mike Murray"
Reply-To: mike.murray@obra.org
To:
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Vino's reality:
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 12:40:51 -0700

Erik Long wrote:
"If he'd been "racing clean" all these years, riding in the environment
of the doped-up super-peloton, he'd have been a mediocre domestique, at
best."

This statement considerably over estimates the benefits provided by
doping practices. Doped or not doped a good rider will be a good rider
and a mediocre rider will be a mediocre rider. The doped rider MAY be a
bit faster than he would have been not doped but the difference is not
the same as the difference between good and mediocre.

Mike Murray

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_________________________________________________________________
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Erik Long

2007-07-25

I don't know about that, Mike. Thanks to the popularization of wattage
meters, we now know that the average euro-pro puts out 15% higher wattage
than the average North Amercan Pro.

I've known quite a few American professionals who have bounced between here
and there. One recounted to me an occasion when he had super form, won a
couple NRC events, then went over to europe and was dropped every day, even
with race-winning fitness. The 10% gain that the dope can give you is a
huge difference. 10% is the time cut in some of these races. If it was a
minor difference, there wouldn't be so many athletes on the 'Puerto list.

----Original Message Follows----
From: "Mike Murray"
Reply-To: mike.murray@obra.org
To:
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Vino's reality:
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 12:40:51 -0700

Erik Long wrote:
"If he'd been "racing clean" all these years, riding in the environment of
the doped-up super-peloton, he'd have been a mediocre domestique, at best."

This statement considerably over estimates the benefits provided by doping
practices. Doped or not doped a good rider will be a good rider and a
mediocre rider will be a mediocre rider. The doped rider MAY be a bit
faster than he would have been not doped but the difference is not the same
as the difference between good and mediocre.

Mike Murray

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

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Monty Hill

2007-07-25

Aw shucks, there goes my hope of competing in the TDF next year.

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Mike Murray
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 12:41 PM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Vino's reality:

Erik Long wrote:
"If he'd been "racing clean" all these years, riding in the environment of
the doped-up super-peloton, he'd have been a mediocre domestique, at best."

This statement considerably over estimates the benefits provided by doping
practices. Doped or not doped a good rider will be a good rider and a
mediocre rider will be a mediocre rider. The doped rider MAY be a bit
faster than he would have been not doped but the difference is not the same
as the difference between good and mediocre.

Mike Murray

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Mike Murray

2007-07-25

Erik Long wrote:
"If he'd been "racing clean" all these years, riding in the environment of
the doped-up super-peloton, he'd have been a mediocre domestique, at best."

This statement considerably over estimates the benefits provided by doping
practices. Doped or not doped a good rider will be a good rider and a
mediocre rider will be a mediocre rider. The doped rider MAY be a bit
faster than he would have been not doped but the difference is not the same
as the difference between good and mediocre.

Mike Murray

Michael O'Hair

2007-07-24

MessageI may as well add my two cents...

When EPO started getting attention, the governing body declared a simple metric: hemocrit above 50% = doping and you're out. Then a change took place where tests were done to find traces of a banned sunstance. Essentially, it moved from a health issue to a legal issue. It also allowed a lot of people, including riders, sponsors, and the governing body to claim that the problem was under control.

The real problem is that some people will do anything to get an edge. Portland's own Ken Patera made himself very unpopular by openly stating that if had access to better drugs, he could have won the Olympic gold medal in weightlifting. I met a kid years ago in a local gym who was trying to score Human Growth Hormone or some such because he wanted "arms like Arnold." The fact that what he was trying to get was known to be exceptionally dangerous didn't matter.

Perhaps, some rider on the Tour will refuse to take drugs, get fired ( probably for not being a "team player" ), and then sue everyone in sight. Maybe.

----Original Message Follows----
From: gschreckchat@comcast.net
To: judson@math.harvard.edu, obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] vino = cheater
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:42:48 +0000

I think Atana's and Vino's silence speaks volumes. The result apparently
came from the test after the TT. In this case, there is not much reason to
wait. These guys are going to kill professional cycling.

Of course, I suspect that if other sports had rigorous testing, these would
be a lot of sports in trouble. I notice no one ever followed up on the
soccer palyers that supposedly were working with Fuentes. In baseball, guys
who tested positive are still playing and apparently in football, you can
still pay in the playoffs, make the alll star team and be eligible for
defensive player of the year after you serve your massive six-game
suspension for steriods. Attendance in all those sports still sets records
which only goes to show that the fans do not really care, nor do the money
interests. For some reason cycling always seems to be in everyone's
headlights both on the road and the press. It is not an excuse for cyclists
taking drugs, just a question why the rules are not enforced a stringently
for other sports. I suppose there is more moeny involved in other sports
which drives everything..

--

George Schreck
gschreckchat@comcast.net
(503) 502-0425

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Thomas W. Judson"

> Let's wait for the B sample to come back before we
> judge Vino as a cheater. Let the process run its
> course. There have been false positives in the past.
> --- Mike Bene wrote:
>
> >
>
http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2007/tour07/news/?id=/news/2007/jul07/jul25news
> > > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
>
>
> Thomas W. Judson, Ph.D.
> Preceptor in Mathematics
> Department of Mathematics
> Harvard University
> 1 Oxford Street, Cambridge, MA 02138
> EMAIL: judson@math.harvard.edu
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
> ____
> Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo!
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> http://farechase.yahoo.com/
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

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/\
/ \/\ __o
/\/ \ --- \<,
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Erik Long

2007-07-24

It saved his job long enough for multiple victories at a world class level.
If he'd been "racing clean" all these years, riding in the environment of
the doped-up super-peloton, he'd have been a mediocre domestique, at best.
The man took a calculated risk that has paid off for most of his career.
Don't forget, he's 33 years old, his days in the peloton were coming to an
end, anyway.

He made a decision to do what he had to in order to compete at the highest
level of a professional sport, the same as everyone else at his level, and
it helped his career. He just happened to get caught. A sorry end to an
otherwise brilliant career.

Athletic doping is the kind of thing we all wish we could dis-invent. But
it happens, and with good reason. If you want to beat 'em, you have to join
'em.

My point in all of this: The dope is so rampant that it no longer provides
an advantage to the user, just a disadvantage to the poor soul who thinks he
can ride at that level on nature alone.

Forget about dope for a sec. Hypothetically, you enter a mass-start hill
climb against 100 riders at your same fitness level. You know that their
bikes are all at least 5 lbs. under the weight limit, and your team hands
you a similar bike, well under the weight limit listed in the rules.

Do you accept the illegal bike, knowing that you'll be breaking a critical
rule and possibly put yourself at risk by racing on such an underbulit
machine? Or do ride your existing bike and willfully put yourself at a
disadvantage, hoping in vain that every finisher ahead of you will get their
bike weighed and be disqualified?

----Original Message Follows----
From:
To: Erik Long
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Vino's reality:
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 15:55:31 -0700

Well, not sO'wise one. He's out of a job, his career is over, his name is
tarnished, his team is out of the tour, he's given pro cycling another black
eye and he will have to pay a years salary as a penalty. How did doping save
his job?

---- Erik Long wrote:
> Do you really think they'd keep him on the team if he wasn't capable of
the
> kind of riding he's done?
>
> Tell us all, O' wise one. Which G.C. position do the clean riders start
at?
>
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From:
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Vino's reality:
> Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 14:25:33 -0700
>
> In no way shape or form did he do what he HAD to do to keep his job. I
see
> allot of riders slower than him who have jobs. Do they fire every rider
who
> doesn't win? Of course not.
>
> ---- Erik Long wrote:
> > Why are we all so surprised at Vinokourov's positive test? When did
we
> all
> > go back to thinking that the UCI Pro-Tour is so different from other
> > professional sports?
> >
> > Are they doping? Hell Yeah, in addition to more training miles than
> you'll
> > ever see in your lifetime. It's not like these guys inject a magic
> > substance, sit on the couch and just get faster. Hell, EPO only works
if
> > you're riding a hard schedule. The pain of riding hard is still there
> for
> > these riders, they're just going 10% faster than than they would if
the
> dope
> > didn't exist.
> >
> > Is it unfair to the riders who aren't doping? It would be naive of us
to
> > assume that there are cyclists on the Pro Tour who don't care to keep
> their
> > jobs. But under the assumption that there are Pro Tour riders who
"ride
> > clean", then yes, it would be unfair to them.
> >
> > Vino's job (his J-O-B) is to be competitive at the top level of a
> > professional sport. Hundreds of miles of training every week, the
strict
> > diet, the ability to handle a bike at 80mph, and all the natural
talent
> in
> > the world isn't going to get 1 rider in 3 million to average 31mph in
a
> 55k
> > time trial, no matter who's bike you put 'em on. That takes
> pharmaceutical
> > assistance, and if you want to keep your job, you'll do it because
there
> > will always be new talent waiting to take your place.
> >
> > That's the cold, hard, reality. And now that Vino's been caught doing
> what
> > he had to do in order to do his job, he'll lose his job, his career
will
> > end, and the tour will go to another great rider and eventually, he'll
> get
> > caught, too.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----Original Message Follows----
> > From: gschreckchat@comcast.net
> > To: judson@math.harvard.edu, obra@list.obra.org
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] vino = cheater
> > Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:42:48 +0000
> >
> > I think Atana's and Vino's silence speaks volumes. The result
apparently
> > came from the test after the TT. In this case, there is not much
reason
> to
> > wait. These guys are going to kill professional cycling.
> >
> > Of course, I suspect that if other sports had rigorous testing, these
> would
> > be a lot of sports in trouble. I notice no one ever followed up on
the
> > soccer palyers that supposedly were working with Fuentes. In
baseball,
> guys
> > who tested positive are still playing and apparently in football, you
can
> > still pay in the playoffs, make the alll star team and be eligible for
> > defensive player of the year after you serve your massive six-game
> > suspension for steriods. Attendance in all those sports still sets
> records
> > which only goes to show that the fans do not really care, nor do the
> money
> > interests. For some reason cycling always seems to be in everyone's
> > headlights both on the road and the press. It is not an excuse for
> cyclists
> > taking drugs, just a question why the rules are not enforced a
> stringently
> > for other sports. I suppose there is more moeny involved in other
sports
> > which drives everything..
> >
> > --
> >
> > George Schreck
> > gschreckchat@comcast.net
> > (503) 502-0425
> >
> > -------------- Original message --------------
> > From: "Thomas W. Judson"
> >
> > > Let's wait for the B sample to come back before we
> > > judge Vino as a cheater. Let the process run its
> > > course. There have been false positives in the past.
> > > --- Mike Bene wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2007/tour07/news/?id=/news/2007/jul07/jul25news
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > OBRA mailing list
> > > > obra@list.obra.org
> > > > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > > > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Thomas W. Judson, Ph.D.
> > > Preceptor in Mathematics
> > > Department of Mathematics
> > > Harvard University
> > > 1 Oxford Street, Cambridge, MA 02138
> > > EMAIL: judson@math.harvard.edu
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
________________________________________________________________________________
> > > ____
> > > Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with
> Yahoo!
> > > FareChase.
> > > http://farechase.yahoo.com/
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > OBRA mailing list
> > > obra@list.obra.org
> > > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary!Â
> > http://club.live.com/chicktionary.aspx?icid=chick_hotmailtextlink2
> >
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=hmtextlinkjuly07
>

_________________________________________________________________
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Luciano bailey

2007-07-24

Well said lets not forget crashes which even the best fail to recover or
find a comfort level without assistance of some kind. I don't personally
have any issue with any epo that wasn't available to all as a recovery
assistantance agent. Many of the riders who have tested positive have
coicidentally been the victims of crashes, and doping as a temporay remedy
is the common treatment in many sports. Just my penny

>From: "Erik Long"
>To: obra@list.obra.org
>Subject: [OBRA Chat] Vino's reality:
>Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 14:00:43 -0700
>
>Why are we all so surprised at Vinokourov's positive test? When did we
>all go back to thinking that the UCI Pro-Tour is so different from other
>professional sports?
>
>Are they doping? Hell Yeah, in addition to more training miles than you'll
>ever see in your lifetime. It's not like these guys inject a magic
>substance, sit on the couch and just get faster. Hell, EPO only works if
>you're riding a hard schedule. The pain of riding hard is still there for
>these riders, they're just going 10% faster than than they would if the
>dope didn't exist.
>
>Is it unfair to the riders who aren't doping? It would be naive of us to
>assume that there are cyclists on the Pro Tour who don't care to keep their
>jobs. But under the assumption that there are Pro Tour riders who "ride
>clean", then yes, it would be unfair to them.
>
>Vino's job (his J-O-B) is to be competitive at the top level of a
>professional sport. Hundreds of miles of training every week, the strict
>diet, the ability to handle a bike at 80mph, and all the natural talent in
>the world isn't going to get 1 rider in 3 million to average 31mph in a 55k
>time trial, no matter who's bike you put 'em on. That takes pharmaceutical
>assistance, and if you want to keep your job, you'll do it because there
>will always be new talent waiting to take your place.
>
>That's the cold, hard, reality. And now that Vino's been caught doing what
>he had to do in order to do his job, he'll lose his job, his career will
>end, and the tour will go to another great rider and eventually, he'll get
>caught, too.
>
>
>
>
>----Original Message Follows----
>From: gschreckchat@comcast.net
>To: judson@math.harvard.edu, obra@list.obra.org
>Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] vino = cheater
>Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:42:48 +0000
>
>I think Atana's and Vino's silence speaks volumes. The result apparently
>came from the test after the TT. In this case, there is not much reason to
>wait. These guys are going to kill professional cycling.
>
>Of course, I suspect that if other sports had rigorous testing, these would
>be a lot of sports in trouble. I notice no one ever followed up on the
>soccer palyers that supposedly were working with Fuentes. In baseball,
>guys who tested positive are still playing and apparently in football, you
>can still pay in the playoffs, make the alll star team and be eligible for
>defensive player of the year after you serve your massive six-game
>suspension for steriods. Attendance in all those sports still sets records
>which only goes to show that the fans do not really care, nor do the money
>interests. For some reason cycling always seems to be in everyone's
>headlights both on the road and the press. It is not an excuse for
>cyclists taking drugs, just a question why the rules are not enforced a
>stringently for other sports. I suppose there is more moeny involved in
>other sports which drives everything..
>
>--
>
>George Schreck
>gschreckchat@comcast.net
>(503) 502-0425
>
>-------------- Original message --------------
>From: "Thomas W. Judson"
>
> > Let's wait for the B sample to come back before we
> > judge Vino as a cheater. Let the process run its
> > course. There have been false positives in the past.
> > --- Mike Bene wrote:
> >
> > >
> >
>http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2007/tour07/news/?id=/news/2007/jul07/jul25news
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > OBRA mailing list
> > > obra@list.obra.org
> > > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> > >
> >
> >
> > Thomas W. Judson, Ph.D.
> > Preceptor in Mathematics
> > Department of Mathematics
> > Harvard University
> > 1 Oxford Street, Cambridge, MA 02138
> > EMAIL: judson@math.harvard.edu
> >
> >
> >
> >
>________________________________________________________________________________
> > ____
> > Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo!
> > FareChase.
> > http://farechase.yahoo.com/
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>OBRA mailing list
>obra@list.obra.org
>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary!?
>http://club.live.com/chicktionary.aspx?icid=chick_hotmailtextlink2
>

>_______________________________________________
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Mike Murray

2007-07-24

This is the most accurate post to date. The problem here is not the
cheating aspect. That is a minimal issue. The problem is substance abuse.

Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Patrick wilder
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 14:09 PM
To: Erik Long; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Vino's reality:

The reality is substance abuse in general is a HUGE problem. The long haul
trucker does a little meth so he can make his delivery on time so he can
keep his J-O-B.

It's not surprising these guys think they won't get caught, that is part of
the cycle of addiction and substance abuse.

The reality is they are out of touch with it.

Erik Long wrote:

Why are we all so surprised at Vinokourov's positive test? When did we all
go back to thinking that the UCI Pro-Tour is so different from other
professional sports?

Are they doping? Hell Yeah, in addition to more training miles than you'll
ever see in your lifetime. It's not like these guys inject a magic
substance, sit on the couch and just get faster. Hell, EPO only works if
you're riding a hard schedule. The pain of riding hard is still there for
these riders, they're just going 10% faster than than they would if the dope

didn't exist.

Is it unfair to the riders who aren't doping? It would be naive of us to
assume that there are cyclists on the Pro Tour who don't care to keep their
jobs. But under the assumption that there are Pro Tour riders who "ride
clean", then yes, it would be unfair to them.

Vino's job (his J-O-B) is to be competitive at the top level of a
professional sport. Hundreds of miles of training every week, the strict
diet, the ability to handle a bike at 80mph, and all the natural talent in
the world isn't going to get 1 rider in 3 million to average 31mph in a 55k
time trial, no matter who's bike you put 'em on. That takes pharmaceutical
assistance, and if you want to keep your job, you'll do it because there
will always be new talent waiting to take your place.

That's the cold, hard, reality. And now that Vino's been caught doing what
he had to do in order to do his job, he'll lose his job, his career will
end, and the tour will go to another great rider and eventually, he'll get
caught, too.

----Original Message Follows----
From: gschreckchat@comcast.net
To: judson@math.harvard.edu, obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] vino = cheater
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:42:48 +0000

I think Atana's and Vino's silence speaks volumes. The result apparently
came from the test after the TT. In this case, there is not much reason to
wait. These guys are going to kill professional cycling.

Of course, I suspect that if other sports had rigorous testing, these would
be a lot of sports in trouble. I notice no one ever followed up on the
soccer palyers that supposedly were working with Fuentes. In baseball, guys
who tested positive are still playing and apparently in football, you can
still pay in the playoffs, make the alll star team and be eligible for
defensive player of the year after you serve your massive six-game
suspension for steriods. Attendance in all those sports still sets records
which only goes to show that the fans do not really care, nor do the money
interests. For some reason cycling always seems to be in everyone's
headlights both on the road and the press. It is not an excuse for cyclists
taking drugs, just a question why the rules are not enforced a stringently
for other sports. I suppose there is more moeny involved in other sports
which drives everything..

--

George Schreck
gschreckchat@comcast.net
(503) 502-0425

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Thomas W. Judson"

> Let's wait for the B sample to come back before we
> judge Vino as a cheater. Let the process run its
> course. There have been false positives in the past.
> --- Mike Bene wrote:
>
> >
>
http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2007/tour07/news/?id=/news/2007/jul07/jul25n
ews
> > > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
>
>
> Thomas W. Judson, Ph.D.
> Preceptor in Mathematics
> Department of Mathematics
> Harvard University
> 1 Oxford Street, Cambridge, MA 02138
> EMAIL: judson@math.harvard.edu
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
____
> ____
> Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo!
> FareChase.
> http://farechase.yahoo.com/
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

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~Patrick
/\
/ \/\ __o
/\/ \ --- \<,
_/ \_______(_)/(_)
www.patrickinportland.blogspot.com

"Some day the mountain might get em' but the law never will"

_____

Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
Check out fitting gifts
for grads at Yahoo! Search.

Peter Gutwald

2007-07-24

OK, I would usually rather not respond to these mass postings, but about a
month ago I read an interesting letter that was posted at cyclingnews.com.
You don't have to agree with it, but there's probably more truth in it than
most of us care to admit. I'm still going to watch the rest of the tour,
I'm still going to cheer for Chris Horner, and I'm still going to continue
to read my cycling mags and ride my bike. See the letter which I have
copied into this posting, below:

It is about us!

We gripe and complain when we see corruption and doping in sports, the
combines in football, and the bought victories in cricket. But we should
realize one thing, when humans (that is us, ourselves, you and me) are
competing they will not stick to the rules. Politicians don't, guys with
successful careers don't, and anyone driving a car of paying taxes doesn't.
The rule is not "don't cheat", the rule is: "don't get caught".

What happened recently is that we are whitewashing sport as a real life
fairytale. Those boys and girls are little white saints, different from all
of us. A myth supported by legions of sports commentators. And a myth that
is destroying competitive sports.

By all means we should have rules and keep people to them. Try to catch
them! But stop whining about dishonesty and cleaning up the sport. As long
as we are human that is how we behave and how any competing human behaves:
fighting to win, stretching the body, stretching the rules.

And for those that have forgotten: in older versions of the tour de France
guns, poison and spikes where ingredients of a sport that is a true mirror
of life. If we hate what we see, we should consider what is tells us about
ourselves.

Enjoy the view,
Stef Cornelissen
Vught, The Netherlands
Wednesday, June 20, 2007

From the readers letters section posted at www.cyclingnews.com.

On 7/24/07, masessa@charter.net wrote:
>
> In no way shape or form did he do what he HAD to do to keep his job. I see
> allot of riders slower than him who have jobs. Do they fire every rider who
> doesn't win? Of course not.
>
> ---- Erik Long wrote:
> > Why are we all so surprised at Vinokourov's positive test? When did we
> all
> > go back to thinking that the UCI Pro-Tour is so different from other
> > professional sports?
> >
> > Are they doping? Hell Yeah, in addition to more training miles than
> you'll
> > ever see in your lifetime. It's not like these guys inject a magic
> > substance, sit on the couch and just get faster. Hell, EPO only works
> if
> > you're riding a hard schedule. The pain of riding hard is still there
> for
> > these riders, they're just going 10% faster than than they would if the
> dope
> > didn't exist.
> >
> > Is it unfair to the riders who aren't doping? It would be naive of us
> to
> > assume that there are cyclists on the Pro Tour who don't care to keep
> their
> > jobs. But under the assumption that there are Pro Tour riders who "ride
> > clean", then yes, it would be unfair to them.
> >
> > Vino's job (his J-O-B) is to be competitive at the top level of a
> > professional sport. Hundreds of miles of training every week, the
> strict
> > diet, the ability to handle a bike at 80mph, and all the natural talent
> in
> > the world isn't going to get 1 rider in 3 million to average 31mph in a
> 55k
> > time trial, no matter who's bike you put 'em on. That takes
> pharmaceutical
> > assistance, and if you want to keep your job, you'll do it because there
> > will always be new talent waiting to take your place.
> >
> > That's the cold, hard, reality. And now that Vino's been caught doing
> what
> > he had to do in order to do his job, he'll lose his job, his career will
> > end, and the tour will go to another great rider and eventually, he'll
> get
> > caught, too.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----Original Message Follows----
> > From: gschreckchat@comcast.net
> > To: judson@math.harvard.edu, obra@list.obra.org
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] vino = cheater
> > Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:42:48 +0000
> >
> > I think Atana's and Vino's silence speaks volumes. The result
> apparently
> > came from the test after the TT. In this case, there is not much reason
> to
> > wait. These guys are going to kill professional cycling.
> >
> > Of course, I suspect that if other sports had rigorous testing, these
> would
> > be a lot of sports in trouble. I notice no one ever followed up on the
> > soccer palyers that supposedly were working with Fuentes. In baseball,
> guys
> > who tested positive are still playing and apparently in football, you
> can
> > still pay in the playoffs, make the alll star team and be eligible for
> > defensive player of the year after you serve your massive six-game
> > suspension for steriods. Attendance in all those sports still sets
> records
> > which only goes to show that the fans do not really care, nor do the
> money
> > interests. For some reason cycling always seems to be in everyone's
> > headlights both on the road and the press. It is not an excuse for
> cyclists
> > taking drugs, just a question why the rules are not enforced a
> stringently
> > for other sports. I suppose there is more moeny involved in other
> sports
> > which drives everything..
> >
> > --
> >
> > George Schreck
> > gschreckchat@comcast.net
> > (503) 502-0425
> >
> > -------------- Original message --------------
> > From: "Thomas W. Judson"
> >
> > > Let's wait for the B sample to come back before we
> > > judge Vino as a cheater. Let the process run its
> > > course. There have been false positives in the past.
> > > --- Mike Bene wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2007/tour07/news/?id=/news/2007/jul07/jul25news
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > OBRA mailing list
> > > > obra@list.obra.org
> > > > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > > > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Thomas W. Judson, Ph.D.
> > > Preceptor in Mathematics
> > > Department of Mathematics
> > > Harvard University
> > > 1 Oxford Street, Cambridge, MA 02138
> > > EMAIL: judson@math.harvard.edu
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> ________________________________________________________________________________
> > > ____
> > > Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with
> Yahoo!
> > > FareChase.
> > > http://farechase.yahoo.com/
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > OBRA mailing list
> > > obra@list.obra.org
> > > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary!
> > http://club.live.com/chicktionary.aspx?icid=chick_hotmailtextlink2
> >
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

masessa@charter.net

2007-07-24

In no way shape or form did he do what he HAD to do to keep his job. I see allot of riders slower than him who have jobs. Do they fire every rider who doesn't win? Of course not.

---- Erik Long wrote:
> Why are we all so surprised at Vinokourov's positive test? When did we all
> go back to thinking that the UCI Pro-Tour is so different from other
> professional sports?
>
> Are they doping? Hell Yeah, in addition to more training miles than you'll
> ever see in your lifetime. It's not like these guys inject a magic
> substance, sit on the couch and just get faster. Hell, EPO only works if
> you're riding a hard schedule. The pain of riding hard is still there for
> these riders, they're just going 10% faster than than they would if the dope
> didn't exist.
>
> Is it unfair to the riders who aren't doping? It would be naive of us to
> assume that there are cyclists on the Pro Tour who don't care to keep their
> jobs. But under the assumption that there are Pro Tour riders who "ride
> clean", then yes, it would be unfair to them.
>
> Vino's job (his J-O-B) is to be competitive at the top level of a
> professional sport. Hundreds of miles of training every week, the strict
> diet, the ability to handle a bike at 80mph, and all the natural talent in
> the world isn't going to get 1 rider in 3 million to average 31mph in a 55k
> time trial, no matter who's bike you put 'em on. That takes pharmaceutical
> assistance, and if you want to keep your job, you'll do it because there
> will always be new talent waiting to take your place.
>
> That's the cold, hard, reality. And now that Vino's been caught doing what
> he had to do in order to do his job, he'll lose his job, his career will
> end, and the tour will go to another great rider and eventually, he'll get
> caught, too.
>
>
>
>
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: gschreckchat@comcast.net
> To: judson@math.harvard.edu, obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] vino = cheater
> Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:42:48 +0000
>
> I think Atana's and Vino's silence speaks volumes. The result apparently
> came from the test after the TT. In this case, there is not much reason to
> wait. These guys are going to kill professional cycling.
>
> Of course, I suspect that if other sports had rigorous testing, these would
> be a lot of sports in trouble. I notice no one ever followed up on the
> soccer palyers that supposedly were working with Fuentes. In baseball, guys
> who tested positive are still playing and apparently in football, you can
> still pay in the playoffs, make the alll star team and be eligible for
> defensive player of the year after you serve your massive six-game
> suspension for steriods. Attendance in all those sports still sets records
> which only goes to show that the fans do not really care, nor do the money
> interests. For some reason cycling always seems to be in everyone's
> headlights both on the road and the press. It is not an excuse for cyclists
> taking drugs, just a question why the rules are not enforced a stringently
> for other sports. I suppose there is more moeny involved in other sports
> which drives everything..
>
> --
>
> George Schreck
> gschreckchat@comcast.net
> (503) 502-0425
>
> -------------- Original message --------------
> From: "Thomas W. Judson"
>
> > Let's wait for the B sample to come back before we
> > judge Vino as a cheater. Let the process run its
> > course. There have been false positives in the past.
> > --- Mike Bene wrote:
> >
> > >
> >
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2007/tour07/news/?id=/news/2007/jul07/jul25news
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > OBRA mailing list
> > > obra@list.obra.org
> > > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> > >
> >
> >
> > Thomas W. Judson, Ph.D.
> > Preceptor in Mathematics
> > Department of Mathematics
> > Harvard University
> > 1 Oxford Street, Cambridge, MA 02138
> > EMAIL: judson@math.harvard.edu
> >
> >
> >
> >
> ________________________________________________________________________________
> > ____
> > Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo!
> > FareChase.
> > http://farechase.yahoo.com/
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary!
> http://club.live.com/chicktionary.aspx?icid=chick_hotmailtextlink2
>

Patrick wilder

2007-07-24

The reality is substance abuse in general is a HUGE problem. The long haul trucker does a little meth so he can make his delivery on time so he can keep his J-O-B.

It's not surprising these guys think they won't get caught, that is part of the cycle of addiction and substance abuse.

The reality is they are out of touch with it.

Erik Long wrote:
Why are we all so surprised at Vinokourov's positive test? When did we all
go back to thinking that the UCI Pro-Tour is so different from other
professional sports?

Are they doping? Hell Yeah, in addition to more training miles than you'll
ever see in your lifetime. It's not like these guys inject a magic
substance, sit on the couch and just get faster. Hell, EPO only works if
you're riding a hard schedule. The pain of riding hard is still there for
these riders, they're just going 10% faster than than they would if the dope
didn't exist.

Is it unfair to the riders who aren't doping? It would be naive of us to
assume that there are cyclists on the Pro Tour who don't care to keep their
jobs. But under the assumption that there are Pro Tour riders who "ride
clean", then yes, it would be unfair to them.

Vino's job (his J-O-B) is to be competitive at the top level of a
professional sport. Hundreds of miles of training every week, the strict
diet, the ability to handle a bike at 80mph, and all the natural talent in
the world isn't going to get 1 rider in 3 million to average 31mph in a 55k
time trial, no matter who's bike you put 'em on. That takes pharmaceutical
assistance, and if you want to keep your job, you'll do it because there
will always be new talent waiting to take your place.

That's the cold, hard, reality. And now that Vino's been caught doing what
he had to do in order to do his job, he'll lose his job, his career will
end, and the tour will go to another great rider and eventually, he'll get
caught, too.

----Original Message Follows----
From: gschreckchat@comcast.net
To: judson@math.harvard.edu, obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] vino = cheater
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:42:48 +0000

I think Atana's and Vino's silence speaks volumes. The result apparently
came from the test after the TT. In this case, there is not much reason to
wait. These guys are going to kill professional cycling.

Of course, I suspect that if other sports had rigorous testing, these would
be a lot of sports in trouble. I notice no one ever followed up on the
soccer palyers that supposedly were working with Fuentes. In baseball, guys
who tested positive are still playing and apparently in football, you can
still pay in the playoffs, make the alll star team and be eligible for
defensive player of the year after you serve your massive six-game
suspension for steriods. Attendance in all those sports still sets records
which only goes to show that the fans do not really care, nor do the money
interests. For some reason cycling always seems to be in everyone's
headlights both on the road and the press. It is not an excuse for cyclists
taking drugs, just a question why the rules are not enforced a stringently
for other sports. I suppose there is more moeny involved in other sports
which drives everything..

--

George Schreck
gschreckchat@comcast.net
(503) 502-0425

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Thomas W. Judson"

> Let's wait for the B sample to come back before we
> judge Vino as a cheater. Let the process run its
> course. There have been false positives in the past.
> --- Mike Bene wrote:
>
> >
>
http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2007/tour07/news/?id=/news/2007/jul07/jul25news
> > > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
>
>
> Thomas W. Judson, Ph.D.
> Preceptor in Mathematics
> Department of Mathematics
> Harvard University
> 1 Oxford Street, Cambridge, MA 02138
> EMAIL: judson@math.harvard.edu
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
> ____
> Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo!
> FareChase.
> http://farechase.yahoo.com/
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________
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_________________________________________________________________
Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary!
http://club.live.com/chicktionary.aspx?icid=chick_hotmailtextlink2

_______________________________________________
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~Patrick
/\
/ \/\ __o
/\/ \ --- \<,
_/ \_______(_)/(_)
www.patrickinportland.blogspot.com
"Some day the mountain might get em' but the law never will"

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