OBRA: OBRA Chat: How-to? Modifying brake cab...

Chris Alling

2007-11-14

I have personally found that excessive brake cable gives the brakes a mushy feel but if you feel that is what you want why don't you try zip tying the housing along side the stops to see if it gives you the desired outcome prior to wrecking your frame.

Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 11:12:57 -0800From: news4joel@gmail.comTo: obra@list.obra.orgSubject: [OBRA Chat] Fwd: How-to? Modifying brake cable stops- drilling outNot sure why my original forward didn't hit the list, so I'll try again. (Apologies to Rob for forwarding back his own message.)
---------- Forwarded message ----------From: Rob Sanders Date: Nov 13, 2007 1:23 PMSubject: RE: [OBRA Chat] How-to? Modifying brake cable stops- drilling outTo: Joel Morrissette < news4joel@gmail.com>

I've done this on several bikes it's quite easy. You might want to experiment by doing brake lines before doing shift lines. Excessive housing length can cause housing play which can affect accuracy. For example, if you take a length of housing with a cable in it and pull hard on the cable, the housing may try to bend, rather than stay rigid and deliver the force to the brake or derailleur. So far I haven't regretted drilling out, and my cables need to be replaced less often.

Good luck,

Dr. Robert SandersAssociate Professor of SpanishCoordinator, First-Year SpanishDepartment of Foreign Languages and LiteraturesFLL - NH 451NPO Box 751Portland State UniversityPortland, Oregon 97207-0751Telephone: (503) 725-5296Fax: (503) 725-5276rsanders@pdx.edu

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Joel MorrissetteSent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 12:54 PMTo: brian.p.johnson@gmail.comCc: obra@list.obra.orgSubject: Re: [OBRA Chat] How-to? Modifying brake cable stops- drilling out

http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68982

On Nov 13, 2007 11:29 AM, Brian Johnson < mandalorian@comcast.net> wrote:
Hey all,I'm thinking about drilling out the top-tube brake cable stops on my steel bike so that I can run housing all the way to the back.My rationale: My older Cannondale road bike runs housing the full lengthof the cable to the rear brake. It's really smooth-- I can barely tell the difference between the front and rear.On my steel bike -- a cyclocross bike -- the rear brake cable is typicalin that the center portion is exposed (to mud, water, etc.). Add to thatthe extra interfaces with the two additional housing ferrules-- I believe that these cause drag and that the fewer housing ferrules in arun of cable, the lower the drag. The rear brake performance is alreadysuffering and there is a lot of drag in the system-- I'm having to increase the spring tension in the cantilevers. All cables and housingare only a few months old.I intend to try this out first by just zip-tying the rear brake cablehousing along the TT and make sure everything works okay before I attempt any mods to the frame.Has anyone here drilled out steel cable stops? Would I need a specialdrill bit? Any other considerations? Would this be something for a framebuilder?Thanks for any insight. Brian--"There's no time for sanity, chum!" -- The Tick_______________________________________________OBRA mailing listobra@list.obra.orghttp://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obraUnsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
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Joel Morrissette

2007-11-14

Not sure why my original forward didn't hit the list, so I'll try again.
(Apologies to Rob for forwarding back his own message.)

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Rob Sanders
Date: Nov 13, 2007 1:23 PM
Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] How-to? Modifying brake cable stops- drilling out
To: Joel Morrissette

I've done this on several bikes it's quite easy. You might want to
experiment by doing brake lines before doing shift lines. Excessive housing
length can cause housing play which can affect accuracy. For example, if you
take a length of housing with a cable in it and pull hard on the cable, the
housing may try to bend, rather than stay rigid and deliver the force to the
brake or derailleur. So far I haven't regretted drilling out, and my cables
need to be replaced less often.

Good luck,

Dr. Robert Sanders
Associate Professor of Spanish
Coordinator, First-Year Spanish
Department of Foreign Languages and Literatures
FLL - NH 451N
PO Box 751
Portland State University
Portland, Oregon 97207-0751
Telephone: (503) 725-5296
Fax: (503) 725-5276
rsanders@pdx.edu
------------------------------

*From:* obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] *On
Behalf Of *Joel Morrissette
*Sent:* Tuesday, November 13, 2007 12:54 PM
*To:* brian.p.johnson@gmail.com
*Cc:* obra@list.obra.org
*Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] How-to? Modifying brake cable stops- drilling out

http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68982

On Nov 13, 2007 11:29 AM, Brian Johnson < mandalorian@comcast.net> wrote:

Hey all,

I'm thinking about drilling out the top-tube brake cable stops on my
steel bike so that I can run housing all the way to the back.

My rationale: My older Cannondale road bike runs housing the full length
of the cable to the rear brake. It's really smooth-- I can barely tell
the difference between the front and rear.

On my steel bike -- a cyclocross bike -- the rear brake cable is typical
in that the center portion is exposed (to mud, water, etc.). Add to that
the extra interfaces with the two additional housing ferrules-- I
believe that these cause drag and that the fewer housing ferrules in a
run of cable, the lower the drag. The rear brake performance is already
suffering and there is a lot of drag in the system-- I'm having to
increase the spring tension in the cantilevers. All cables and housing
are only a few months old.

I intend to try this out first by just zip-tying the rear brake cable
housing along the TT and make sure everything works okay before I
attempt any mods to the frame.

Has anyone here drilled out steel cable stops? Would I need a special
drill bit? Any other considerations? Would this be something for a frame
builder?

Thanks for any insight.

Brian

--

"There's no time for sanity, chum!"
-- The Tick

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

--
__o "It never gets easier,
_ \<_ you just go faster."
(_)/(_) -- Greg LeMond

john

2007-11-13

I would not drill them... for sake of frame re-sell or etc..

If the cables are routed properly using the cable stops i think is better:
1. The drag should be less. (if done right the cable should not even touch the ferrule ?.. )
2. lighter....
3. The main reason though, more rigid, or less cable flex. The flex in a brake system is from the members in compression (housing) and in tension (cable). If you use cable stops the frame becomes the "housing / compression member" and it is of course a lot stiffer than cable housing...
This is by the way the main advantage and reason for mtbs going to V-brakes. There is a lot less force in the v-brake cable as compared to the canti-lever, and therefore things do not have to be as stiff (ie larger diameter cables,and housings), to get the same "spongeless" performance.

Sometimes with cantilevers, the main problem is "spongy" brakes. A lot of times it has to do with the mechanical advantage (leverage, or what ever you want to call it). Sometimes it is too great, too much force at the brake shoes. Many interpret this the opposite, thinking the brakes are not powerful enough, but actually they are too powerful and one runs out of cable movement (ie brake lever bottoms out) before the brakes fully engage. So in a brake lever-brake system, there is a tradeoff between force and displacment*. I usually aim for as much displacement as possible since my hands are strong enough (that is decrease the mechanical advantage). This also results in more clearance for the shoes from the rims, and also gives a less spongy brake system. To decrease mechanical advantage, use a wide cable hanger, and/ or put it up as high as possible, that is, maximum straddle cable.

One could possibly mess around with adjustable brake levers (adjustable distance from cable attach point to lever pivot...)....ie extreme example (and stupid since NOT enough mechanical advantage) would be to use v-brake levers with cantilevers.

Other things that help minimize sponge, is a high quality, as large diameter possible that fits, smoothed, cable. Squaring the cable housing ends (i use a grinder), helps a little too.

Oh also i usually set up the brake levers, if possible, so that the cable runs on the outside of the handlebars. Larger radius for the housing therefore less drag. but not possible with STI or ergo..

*or in any lever or gear system... for example increasing mechanical adantage of your gears(down shifing): the force at the pedals goes down, but more displacment is necessary (higher spin).

----- Original Message ----
From: Joel Morrissette
To: brian.p.johnson@gmail.com
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 12:53:43 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] How-to? Modifying brake cable stops- drilling out

http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68982

On Nov 13, 2007 11:29 AM, Brian Johnson < mandalorian@comcast.net> wrote:

Hey all,

I'm thinking about drilling out the top-tube brake cable stops on my
steel bike so that I can run housing all the way to the back.

My rationale: My older Cannondale road bike runs housing the full length
of the cable to the rear brake. It's really smooth-- I can barely tell
the difference between the front and rear.

On my steel bike -- a cyclocross bike -- the rear brake cable is typical
in that the center portion is exposed (to mud, water, etc.). Add to that
the extra interfaces with the two additional housing ferrules-- I
believe that these cause drag and that the fewer housing ferrules in a
run of cable, the lower the drag. The rear brake performance is already
suffering and there is a lot of drag in the system-- I'm having to
increase the spring tension in the cantilevers. All cables and housing
are only a few months old.

I intend to try this out first by just zip-tying the rear brake cable
housing along the TT and make sure everything works okay before I
attempt any mods to the frame.

Has anyone here drilled out steel cable stops? Would I need a special
drill bit? Any other considerations? Would this be something for a frame
builder?

Thanks for any insight.

Brian

--

"There's no time for sanity, chum!"
-- The Tick

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

--
__o "It never gets easier,
_ \<_ you just go faster."
(_)/(_) -- Greg LeMond

Joel Morrissette

2007-11-13

http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68982

On Nov 13, 2007 11:29 AM, Brian Johnson wrote:

> Hey all,
>
> I'm thinking about drilling out the top-tube brake cable stops on my
> steel bike so that I can run housing all the way to the back.
>
> My rationale: My older Cannondale road bike runs housing the full length
> of the cable to the rear brake. It's really smooth-- I can barely tell
> the difference between the front and rear.
>
> On my steel bike -- a cyclocross bike -- the rear brake cable is typical
> in that the center portion is exposed (to mud, water, etc.). Add to that
> the extra interfaces with the two additional housing ferrules-- I
> believe that these cause drag and that the fewer housing ferrules in a
> run of cable, the lower the drag. The rear brake performance is already
> suffering and there is a lot of drag in the system-- I'm having to
> increase the spring tension in the cantilevers. All cables and housing
> are only a few months old.
>
> I intend to try this out first by just zip-tying the rear brake cable
> housing along the TT and make sure everything works okay before I
> attempt any mods to the frame.
>
> Has anyone here drilled out steel cable stops? Would I need a special
> drill bit? Any other considerations? Would this be something for a frame
> builder?
>
> Thanks for any insight.
>
> Brian
>
> --
>
>
> "There's no time for sanity, chum!"
> -- The Tick
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

--
__o "It never gets easier,
_ \<_ you just go faster."
(_)/(_) -- Greg LeMond

Brian Johnson

2007-11-13

Hey all,

I'm thinking about drilling out the top-tube brake cable stops on my
steel bike so that I can run housing all the way to the back.

My rationale: My older Cannondale road bike runs housing the full length
of the cable to the rear brake. It's really smooth-- I can barely tell
the difference between the front and rear.

On my steel bike -- a cyclocross bike -- the rear brake cable is typical
in that the center portion is exposed (to mud, water, etc.). Add to that
the extra interfaces with the two additional housing ferrules-- I
believe that these cause drag and that the fewer housing ferrules in a
run of cable, the lower the drag. The rear brake performance is already
suffering and there is a lot of drag in the system-- I'm having to
increase the spring tension in the cantilevers. All cables and housing
are only a few months old.

I intend to try this out first by just zip-tying the rear brake cable
housing along the TT and make sure everything works okay before I
attempt any mods to the frame.

Has anyone here drilled out steel cable stops? Would I need a special
drill bit? Any other considerations? Would this be something for a frame
builder?

Thanks for any insight.

Brian

--

"There's no time for sanity, chum!"
-- The Tick