OBRA: OBRA Chat: Evangelistic Helmet Nazi's?

Ron and Dorothy Strasser

2008-02-28

OK OBRA... let your imagination go now.... just let the helmet "issue" go.....

We need to move on and this is a good place. You do not see ballistic humans in car ads as the powerful trucks drive through and over rough terrain at high speed and sport cars whip around corners far faster than the normal person could keep them on the road. So start letting go of helmets and thinking about how much fun it would be to see all of the commercials (propaganda) spreading the great merits of various sleep disorders, erectile dysfunction, high blood pressure, allergies, cholesterol levels etc. showing the actors exhibiting the side effects like bloody nose, nausea (like throwing up), diarrhea (they could tell us how great the med is while sitting on the library throne) or just wobble around on camera because he/she is dizzy. Just think something beside more helmet input. Now. go ride either with or without a helmet. You could even ride your indoor trainer with or without a helmet just to make a point.
the ronster
----- Original Message -----
From: gschreckchat@comcast.net
To: Erik Long ; Obra
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 8:16 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Evangelistic Helmet Nazi's?

Interesting, I had never heard of the dangers of ballistic humans in auto accidents. Clearly that is the reason why they have seat belt laws. So that in an auto accident I will not be propelled through my windshield at the speed of sound and hit a stray pedestrian.

--

George Schreck
gschreckchat@comcast.net
(503) 502-0425

-------------- Original message --------------
From: Erik Long
Additional safety equipment vs. integrated safety equipment is not a particularly valid comparison. And choosing not to wear a seatbelt can in fact injure others, as a 200 lb human flying through the air at 60mph is basically just a slow-moving missile. A helmetless bike rider won't hurt anyone but himself, and even then, that's IF he manages to hit his head.

Again, the decisions of other people that have no effect on us, are really none our friggin' business. If someone else wants to be on a poor diet, it's none of my business. If someone else wants to smoke cigarettes, that' their business, not mine. If someone else wants to binge drink, that 's also none of my damn business - so long as they don't get behind the wheel and put other people at risk.

Ultimately, letting our government play "Daddy" can only lead to more inane laws over trivial issues. In a free society, we need to be allowed to make our own decisions when it co mes to things that only effect ourselves. You take away personal choice, you take a way inaliable human rights. It's an obvious step in a very bad direction.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: gschreckchat@comcast.net
To: elongride@hotmail.com; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Evangelistic Helmet Nazi's?
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 22:56:04 +0000

I doubt that is a valid reason to worry and is an extreme overstatement. They also require seat belts and all new cars must have airbags for use of the roads. They also require life vests for people in boats.

Since it is hard to argue that a hlemet does work, it seems a bit silly for us to argue that the government should not mandate their use if it so chooses.

--

George Schreck
gschreckchat@comcast.net
(503) 502-0425

-------------- Original message --------------
From: Erik Long
It is my opinion, my belief, that everyone on a bike is safer while wearing a helmet. I have broken at least 3 of my own helmets and have had friends who sustained brain damage from bicycle accidents without helmets. I really believe that everyone should wear a helmet.

That does not give me - or any one of us - the right to push our beliefs on other people. Listen to yourselves, people! You sound like religious zealots who believe that their way is the only way. It does not matter to other people what we believe! Whether it's true or not, you don't get to make decisions for everyone else! It's just wrong (and a little Fascist).

Laws like this one just give those in government a future foothold to control us further. How many of the cyclists killed in Portland over the past year were riding without helmets? Any of them actually die from head trauma for which they were at fault?

They all had one thing in commo n: riding on public roads.

If we let laws like Vancouver's new helmet law become commonplace, local government in the not-too-distant future could realistically also outlaw cycling on public roads under the guise of "safety". That is, if we let paranoia and personal belief govern over liberty and common sense.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 11:58:41 -0800
From: twotiretinker-obra2@yahoo.com
To: harry-phinney@comcast.net; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] More helmet war blah, blah

interesting that for motorcycles, helmet-less states actually have lower head injury rates too.
to be honest though, once above a certain speed, it really doesn't matter if you have a helmet or not, except clean-up is easier. or you just slide and don't hit your head...
But without a helmet, on a motorcycle, believe me, you don't drive fast and you are really really careful.

The only time i have ever hit my head in a bicycle crash, is when involved with other cyclists, thus i wear a helmet when riding with others.

But i would get really pissed if I was required to put on a helmet to go get groceries. Skill, proficient, and careful riding are 20 times more important then strapping on a helmet (group ride of course you can't control others carefullness..) Go out and do your tumbling drills. err or ride cyclocross.

To increa se cyc ling, it MUST be convenient, as convenient as getting into a car and driving off. My bike is outside and is ready to ride, I can literally be out the door down the street in 10 seconds. This is actually, in my opinion, the number one thing preventing more people from commutting to work or just riding in general. Some days my light training or sprint intervals are done, in regular clothes, I just don't feel like spending 10 minutes changing for 30 minute ride...

Or we should make driving as inconvenient. What's good for the goose is good for the gander! I was being highly sarcastic in a previous email, but it would be so funny to see everyone driving around with helmets on. Yeah and Imagine the environmental impact of all that Foam and plastic !!

----- Original Message ----
From: Harry Phinney
To: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 10:00:06 AM
Subject: [OBRA Chat] More helmet war blah, blah

> I work in the public health and epidemiology realm and this is the main
> problem with helmet advocacy...there is NO real data concerning head
> trauma in the ED and helmet usage...

There have most certainly been studies. As an example there were surveys
done in Australia prior to and 1 and 2 years after the imposition of laws
mandating bicycle helmet usage. While the total number of cyclists with head
injuries decreased, this decrease was _less_ than the decrease in the number
of miles/km cycled. In other words head injury _rates_ went up, not down.
Helmet laws have repeatedly been shown to reduce the number of cyclists,
which is not IMO a good t hing. If you are interested in studies regarding
the efficacy of bicycle helmets, here is a rather old list:

Williams M
The protective performance of bicyclists' helmets in accidents.
In: Accid Anal Prev (1991 Apr-Jun) 23(2-3):119-31
ACCIDENT ANALYSIS AND PREVENTION

Dorsch MM Woodward AJ Somers RL
Do bicycle safety helmets reduce severity of head injury in real
crashes?
In: Accid Anal Prev (1987 Jun) 19(3):183-90
ACCIDENT ANALYSIS AND PREVENTION

Thompson DC Thompson RS Rivara FP Wolf ME
A case-control study of the effectiveness of bicycle safety helmets
in preventing facial injury.
In: Am J Public Health (1990 Dec) 80(12):1471-4
AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PUBLIC HEALTH

Wasserman RC Waller JA Monty MJ Emery AB Robinson DR
Bicyclists, helmets and head injuries: a rider-based study of helmet
use and e ffecti v eness.
In: Am J Public Health (1988 Sep) 78(9):1220-1
AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PUBLIC HEALTH

Ginsberg GM Silverberg DS
A cost-benefit analysis of legislation for bicycle safety helmets in
Israel.
In: Am J Public Health (1994 Apr) 84(4):653-6
AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PUBLIC HEALTH

Wasserman RC Buccini RV
Helmet protection from head injuries among recreational bicyclists.
In: Am J Sports Med (1990 Jan-Feb) 18(1):96-7
AMERICAN JOURNAL OF SPORTS MEDICINE

Maimaris C Summers CL Browning C Palmer CR
Injury patterns in cyclists attending an accident and emergency
department: a comparison of helmet wearers and non-wearers [see
comments]
In: BMJ (1994 Jun 11) 308(6943):1537-40
BMJ

Maimaris C Summers CL Browning C Palmer CR
Injury patterns in cyclists attending an accident and emergency
dep artmen t: a comparison of helmet wearers and non-wearers [see
comments]
In: BMJ (1994 Jun 11) 308(6943):1537-40
BMJ

Thomas S Acton C Nixon J Battistutta D Pitt WR Clark R
Effectiveness of bicycle helmets in preventing head injury in
children: case-control study [see comments]
In: BMJ (1994 Jan 15) 308(6922):173-6
BMJ

Waters EA
Should pedal cyclists wear helmets? A comparison of head injuries
sustained by pedal cyclists and motorcyclists in road traffic
accidents.
In: Injury (1986 Nov) 17(6):372-5
INJURY

Spaite DW Murphy M Criss EA Valenzuela TD Meislin HW
A prospective analysis of injury severity among helmeted and
nonhelmeted bicyclists involved in collisions with motor vehicles.
In: J Trauma (1991 Nov) 31(11):1510-6
JOURNAL OF TRAUMA

McDermott FT Lane JC&nbs p; Bra ze nor GA Debney EA
The effectiveness of bicyclist helmets: a study of 1710 casualties
[see comments]
In: J Trauma (1993 Jun) 34(6):834-44; discussion 844-5
JOURNAL OF TRAUMA

Bjornstig U Ostrom M Eriksson A Sonntag-Ostrom E
Head and face injuries in bicyclists--with special reference to
possible effects of helmet use.
In: J Trauma (1992 Dec) 33(6):887-93
JOURNAL OF TRAUMA

Thompson RS Rivara FP Thompson DC
A case-control study of the effectiveness of bicycle safety helmets
[see comments]
In: N Engl J Med (1989 May 25) 320(21):1361-7
NEW ENGLAND JOURNAL OF MEDICINE

Rivara FP Thompson DC Thompson RS Rogers LW Alexander B Felix D
Bergman AB
The Seattle children's bicycle helmet campaign: changes in helmet use
and head injury admissions.
In: Pediatrics (1994 Apr) 93(4):567 -9
&nb sp; PEDIATRICS

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Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

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--Forwarded Message Attachment--
From: elongride@hotmail.com
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Evangelistic Helmet Nazi's?
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 21:09:53 +0000

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gschreckchat@comcast.net

2008-02-28

Interesting, I had never heard of the dangers of ballistic humans in auto accidents. Clearly that is the reason why they have seat belt laws. So that in an auto accident I will not be propelled through my windshield at the speed of sound and hit a stray pedestrian.

--

George Schreck
gschreckchat@comcast.net
(503) 502-0425

-------------- Original message --------------
From: Erik Long
Additional safety equipment vs. integrated safety equipment is not a particularly valid comparison. And choosing not to wear a seatbelt can in fact injure others, as a 200 lb human flying through the air at 60mph is basically just a slow-moving missile. A helmetless bike rider won't hurt anyone but himself, and even then, that's IF he manages to hit his head.

Again, the decisions of other people that have no effect on us, are really none our friggin' business. If someone else wants to be on a poor diet, it's none of my business. If someone else wants to smoke cigarettes, that' their business, not mine. If someone else wants to binge drink, that 's also none of my damn business - so long as they don't get behind the wheel and put other people at risk.

Ultimately, letting our government play "Daddy" can only lead to more inane laws over trivial issues. In a free society, we need to be allowed to make our own decisions when it comes to things that only effect ourselves. You take away personal choice, you take a way inaliable human rights. It's an obvious step in a very bad direction.

From: gschreckchat@comcast.net
To: elongride@hotmail.com; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Evangelistic Helmet Nazi's?
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 22:56:04 +0000

I doubt that is a valid reason to worry and is an extreme overstatement. They also require seat belts and all new cars must have airbags for use of the roads. They also require life vests for people in boats.

Since it is hard to argue that a hlemet does work, it seems a bit silly for us to argue that the government should not mandate their use if it so chooses.

--

George Schreck
gschreckchat@comcast.net
(503) 502-0425

-------------- Original message --------------
From: Erik Long
It is my opinion, my belief, that everyone on a bike is safer while wearing a helmet. I have broken at least 3 of my own helmets and have had friends who sustained brain damage from bicycle accidents without helmets. I really believe that everyone should wear a helmet.

That does not give me - or any one of us - the right to push our beliefs on other people. Listen to yourselves, people! You sound like religious zealots who believe that their way is the only way. It does not matter to other people what we believe! Whether it's true or not, you don't get to make decisions for everyone else! It's just wrong (and a little Fascist).

Laws like this one just give those in government a future foothold to control us further. How many of the cyclists killed in Portland over the past year were riding without helmets? Any of them actually die from head trauma for which they were at fault?

They all had one thing in commo n: riding on public roads.

If we let laws like Vancouver's new helmet law become commonplace, local government in the not-too-distant future could realistically also outlaw cycling on public roads under the guise of "safety". That is, if we let paranoia and personal belief govern over liberty and common sense.

Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 11:58:41 -0800
From: twotiretinker-obra2@yahoo.com
To: harry-phinney@comcast.net; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] More helmet war blah, blah

interesting that for motorcycles, helmet-less states actually have lower head injury rates too.
to be honest though, once above a certain speed, it really doesn't matter if you have a helmet or not, except clean-up is easier. or you just slide and don't hit your head...
But without a helmet, on a motorcycle, believe me, you don't drive fast and you are really really careful.

The only time i have ever hit my head in a bicycle crash, is when involved with other cyclists, thus i wear a helmet when riding with others.

But i would get really pissed if I was required to put on a helmet to go get groceries. Skill, proficient, and careful riding are 20 times more important then strapping on a helmet (group ride of course you can't control others carefullness..) Go out and do your tumbling drills. err or ride cyclocross.

To increase cyc ling, it MUST be convenient, as convenient as getting into a car and driving off. My bike is outside and is ready to ride, I can literally be out the door down the street in 10 seconds. This is actually, in my opinion, the number one thing preventing more people from commutting to work or just riding in general. Some days my light training or sprint intervals are done, in regular clothes, I just don't feel like spending 10 minutes changing for 30 minute ride...

Or we should make driving as inconvenient. What's good for the goose is good for the gander! I was being highly sarcastic in a previous email, but it would be so funny to see everyone driving around with helmets on. Yeah and Imagine the environmental impact of all that Foam and plastic !!

----- Original Message ----
From: Harry Phinney
To: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 10:00:06 AM
Subject: [OBRA Chat] More helmet war blah, blah

> I work in the public health and epidemiology realm and this is the main
> problem with helmet advocacy...there is NO real data concerning head
> trauma in the ED and helmet usage...

There have most certainly been studies. As an example there were surveys
done in Australia prior to and 1 and 2 years after the imposition of laws
mandating bicycle helmet usage. While the total number of cyclists with head
injuries decreased, this decrease was _less_ than the decrease in the number
of miles/km cycled. In other words head injury _rates_ went up, not down.
Helmet laws have repeatedly been shown to reduce the number of cyclists,
which is not IMO a good t hing. If you are interested in studies regarding
the efficacy of bicycle helmets, here is a rather old list:

Williams M
The protective performance of bicyclists' helmets in accidents.
In: Accid Anal Prev (1991 Apr-Jun) 23(2-3):119-31
ACCIDENT ANALYSIS AND PREVENTION

Dorsch MM Woodward AJ Somers RL
Do bicycle safety helmets reduce severity of head injury in real
crashes?
In: Accid Anal Prev (1987 Jun) 19(3):183-90
ACCIDENT ANALYSIS AND PREVENTION

Thompson DC Thompson RS Rivara FP Wolf ME
A case-control study of the effectiveness of bicycle safety helmets
in preventing facial injury.
In: Am J Public Health (1990 Dec) 80(12):1471-4
AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PUBLIC HEALTH

Wasserman RC Waller JA Monty MJ Emery AB Robinson DR
Bicyclists, helmets and head injuries: a rider-based study of helmet
use and effectiv eness.
In: Am J Public Health (1988 Sep) 78(9):1220-1
AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PUBLIC HEALTH

Ginsberg GM Silverberg DS
A cost-benefit analysis of legislation for bicycle safety helmets in
Israel.
In: Am J Public Health (1994 Apr) 84(4):653-6
AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PUBLIC HEALTH

Wasserman RC Buccini RV
Helmet protection from head injuries among recreational bicyclists.
In: Am J Sports Med (1990 Jan-Feb) 18(1):96-7
AMERICAN JOURNAL OF SPORTS MEDICINE

Maimaris C Summers CL Browning C Palmer CR
Injury patterns in cyclists attending an accident and emergency
department: a comparison of helmet wearers and non-wearers [see
comments]
In: BMJ (1994 Jun 11) 308(6943):1537-40
BMJ

Thomas S Acton C Nixon J Battistutta D Pitt WR Clark R
Effectiveness of bicycle helmets in preventing head injury in
children: case-control study [see comments]
In: BMJ (1994 Jan 15) 308(6922):173-6
BMJ

Waters EA
Should pedal cyclists wear helmets? A comparison of head injuries
sustained by pedal cyclists and motorcyclists in road traffic
accidents.
In: Injury (1986 Nov) 17(6):372-5
INJURY

Spaite DW Murphy M Criss EA Valenzuela TD Meislin HW
A prospective analysis of injury severity among helmeted and
nonhelmeted bicyclists involved in collisions with motor vehicles.
In: J Trauma (1991 Nov) 31(11):1510-6
JOURNAL OF TRAUMA

McDermott FT Lane JC Braze nor GA Debney EA
The effectiveness of bicyclist helmets: a study of 1710 casualties
[see comments]
In: J Trauma (1993 Jun) 34(6):834-44; discussion 844-5
JOURNAL OF TRAUMA

Bjornstig U Ostrom M Eriksson A Sonntag-Ostrom E
Head and face injuries in bicyclists--with special reference to
possible effects of helmet use.
In: J Trauma (1992 Dec) 33(6):887-93
JOURNAL OF TRAUMA

Thompson RS Rivara FP Thompson DC
A case-control study of the effectiveness of bicycle safety helmets
[see comments]
In: N Engl J Med (1989 May 25) 320(21):1361-7
NEW ENGLAND JOURNAL OF MEDICINE

Rivara FP Thompson DC Thompson RS Rogers LW Alexander B Felix D
Bergman AB
The Seattle children's bicycle helmet campaign: changes in helmet use
and head injury admissions.
In: Pediatrics (1994 Apr) 93(4):567-9
&nb sp; PEDIATRICS

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging. You IM, we give. Learn more.
--Forwarded Message Attachment--
From: elongride@hotmail.com
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Evangelistic Helmet Nazi's?
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 21:09:53 +0000

_______________________________________________OBRA mailing listobra@list.obra.orghttp://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obraUnsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser! Learn more.

Jeff Tedder & Shari

2008-02-28

Michaels last paragraph says it all, PEOPLE DON"T WANT TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR OWN ACTIONS....In my case, how true that was,
and cost my insurance company over 40 grand. Just for a irresponsible lying slime bag...

Stand-up, take responsibility for your actions and stop whining. Half the reason we have some of these crazy laws on the books is because people don't / won't want to take responsibility for what they do.

Michael

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Erik Long
Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 4:51 PM
To: gschreckchat@comcast.net; Obra
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Evangelistic Helmet Nazi's?

Additional safety equipment vs. integrated safety equipment is not a particularly valid comparison. And choosing not to wear a seatbelt can in fact injure others, as a 200 lb human flying through the air at 60mph is basically just a slow-moving missile. A helmetless bike rider won't hurt anyone but himself, and even then, that's IF he manages to hit his head.

Again, the decisions of other people that have no effect on us, are really none our friggin' business. If someone else wants to be on a poor diet, it's none of my business. If someone else wants to smoke cigarettes, that' their business, not mine. If someone else wants to binge drink, that 's also none of my damn business - so long as they don't get behind the wheel and put other people at risk.

Ultimately, letting our government play "Daddy" can only lead to more inane laws over trivial issues. In a free society, we need to be allowed to make our own decisions when it comes to things that only effect ourselves. You take away personal choice, you take a way inaliable human rights. It's an obvious step in a very bad direction.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: gschreckchat@comcast.net
To: elongride@hotmail.com; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Evangelistic Helmet Nazi's?
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 22:56:04 +0000

I doubt that is a valid reason to worry and is an extreme overstatement. They also require seat belts and all new cars must have airbags for use of the roads. They also require life vests for people in boats.

Since it is hard to argue that a hlemet does work, it seems a bit silly for us to argue that the government should not mandate their use if it so chooses.

--

George Schreck
gschreckchat@comcast.net
(503) 502-0425

-------------- Original message --------------
From: Erik Long
It is my opinion, my belief, that everyone on a bike is safer while wearing a helmet. I have broken at least 3 of my own helmets and have had friends who sustained brain damage from bicycle accidents without helmets. I really believe that everyone should wear a helmet.

That does not give me - or any one of us - the right to push our beliefs on other people. Listen to yourselves, people! You sound like religious zealots who believe that their way is the only way. It does not matter to other people what we believe! Whether it's true or not, you don't get to make decisions for everyone else! It's just wrong (and a little Fascist).

Laws like this one just give those in government a future foothold to control us further. How many of the cyclists killed in Portland over the past year were riding without helmets? Any of them actually die from head trauma for which they were at fault?

They all had one thing in commo n: riding on public roads.

If we let laws like Vancouver's new helmet law become commonplace, local government in the not-too-distant future could realistically also outlaw cycling on public roads under the guise of "safety". That is, if we let paranoia and personal belief govern over liberty and common sense.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 11:58:41 -0800
From: twotiretinker-obra2@yahoo.com
To: harry-phinney@comcast.net; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] More helmet war blah, blah