OBRA: OBRA Chat: Tubulars vs. clinchers

George de Randich

2008-02-29

For a novice tricycle riderwould someone be kind enough to explain to me
the differance!
George Y. de Randich
On Thu, February 28, 2008 1:55 pm, Haverty, Chris wrote:
> Tubulars can roll and are therefore unsafe. In fact, I'm starting a
> petition to ban tubulars in Oregon. Who is with me on this! It is for
> your own safety!
>
> Do you think a state law is enough or should we push for a
> constitutional amendment?
>
> Chris
>
> Rick Johnson wrote:
> Yea, even BikePortland is up to 104 comments on the helmet law.
>
> But, I'm interest in hearing more about tubulars - are they really worth
> the money and hassle? So far I've not heard enough to convince me.
>
> Rick
>
> Bryan Curry wrote: No. I've seen 900+ messages on helmet usage
> within a single thread at Google groups. OBRA members are slackin'.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
> Behalf Of Mike Murray
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 11:11 AM
> To: 'OBRA List'
> Subject: [OBRA Chat] Tubulars vs. clinchers
>
>
> We might be able to get as many postings with this subject. What do you
> think?
>
>
> Mike Murray
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
> Behalf Of C M
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 08:08 AM
> To: jon.ragsdale@comcast.net; OBRA List
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Helmets will be mandatory in Vancouver, WA
>
>
> Jon....good job with the original posting, as of this morning I count 71
> entries related to this topic, this may have set a record.
>
> On 2/26/08, jon.ragsdale@comcast.net wrote:
> There is a story on the front page of www.kgw.com reporting that
> Vancouver has enacted a rule that in 30 days all cyclists will be
> required to wear helmets. Full story:
> http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_022608_news_vancouver_helmet_law_bicycle.2edad9de.html
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
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> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
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--
George Y. de Randich

Craig Austin

2008-02-28

I raced the whole 'cross season, starting with practice sessions in
August, on a pair of Ksyriums with Vittoria XG tires. I used Stans
sealant, no rim strips of any kind. I ran pretty low pressures and never
had one slide, burp, or pop off. I think it's a matter of getting lucky
with the tire/rim combo you use. I've never used rim strips on any of my
four tubeless setups, and the only one I haven't been able to get to
work was a pair of Mavic 317 rims with Maxxis tires. Couldn't get a good
seal on those but every other combo I've tried has worked. Of course,
these were 'cross and MTB tires, not road.

Your mileage may vary.

Craig

________________________________

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of gschreckchat@comcast.net
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 6:00 PM
To: Erik Voldengen; Brian Engelen
Cc: OBRA List
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tubulars vs. clinchers

As I recall, it was a Hutchinson tubeless that Zinn used. Supposedly
Shimano designed its rim flanges specifically for the tubeless tire. It
is interesting that No Tubes runs counter to the people who invented the
tubeless road tire.

--

George Schreck
gschreckchat@comcast.net
(503) 502-0425

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Erik Voldengen"

> notubes says yes, it will work. I asked them in their forums a
couple
> months ago. I have not tried it yet, but I was planning on it.

>
> I also read the Zinn article about them sliding off his
Ksyriums, but
> I'm not sure if he was using the tubeless specific tire.
>
> But one thing I've learned by doing all my notubes research is
even if
> your rim doesn't have spoke holes, you still need to use the
right
> about of rim strip(s) to work properly. Another example of
this is
> Chris B's green Michelin Mud blowout a couple years ago. No
rim
> strips with a ksyrium, and POP.
>
> -Erik
>
>
> 2008/2/28 Brian Engelen :
> >
> >
> >
& gt; >
> > Has anyone tried the Hutchinson tubeless tires with Stan's
No Tubes rim
> > strips and sealant? I've only seen this stuff on the web.
> _______________________________________________
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> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

gschreckchat@comcast.net

2008-02-28

As I recall, it was a Hutchinson tubeless that Zinn used. Supposedly Shimano designed its rim flanges specifically for the tubeless tire. It is interesting that No Tubes runs counter to the people who invented the tubeless road tire.

--

George Schreck
gschreckchat@comcast.net
(503) 502-0425

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Erik Voldengen"

> notubes says yes, it will work. I asked them in their forums a couple
> months ago. I have not tried it yet, but I was planning on it.
>
> I also read the Zinn article about them sliding off his Ksyriums, but
> I'm not sure if he was using the tubeless specific tire.
>
> But one thing I've learned by doing all my notubes research is even if
> your rim doesn't have spoke holes, you still need to use the right
> about of rim strip(s) to work properly. Another example of this is
> Chris B's green Michelin Mud blowout a couple years ago. No rim
> strips with a ksyrium, and POP.
>
> -Erik
>
>
> 2008/2/28 Brian Engelen :
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Has anyone tried the Hutchinson tubeless tires with Stan's No Tubes rim
> > strips and sealant? I've only seen this stuff on the web.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

David Auker

2008-02-28

Speaking of clinchers' potential for coming off the rim when
experiencing a flat, what about going ONTO the rim, the mounting? I
find the Michelin Carbon to be quite hard to mount, very tight, scary
that I might "snake bite" the tube...really wouldn't want to be out on a
cold rainy day and have a flat on one! On the other hand, Vredestein
clinchers go on VERY easily, almost disturbingly so (they ARE rated at
high psi, but could come off rim easily on sudden flat??). Any
preferences out there for easy/tough mounting?

Mike Murray wrote:
> john [twotiretinker-obra2@yahoo.com] wrote:
>
> "Getting a flat on the track with a clincher would be quite the feat in
> itself. if you really try hard, of course possible :"
>
> Must not be that much of a feat. I have seen it happen several times.
>
> Mike Murray
>
> _______________________________________________
>

Mike Murray

2008-02-28

john [twotiretinker-obra2@yahoo.com] wrote:

"Getting a flat on the track with a clincher would be quite the feat in
itself. if you really try hard, of course possible :"

Must not be that much of a feat. I have seen it happen several times.

Mike Murray

Erik Voldengen

2008-02-28

notubes says yes, it will work. I asked them in their forums a couple
months ago. I have not tried it yet, but I was planning on it.

I also read the Zinn article about them sliding off his Ksyriums, but
I'm not sure if he was using the tubeless specific tire.

But one thing I've learned by doing all my notubes research is even if
your rim doesn't have spoke holes, you still need to use the right
about of rim strip(s) to work properly. Another example of this is
Chris B's green Michelin Mud blowout a couple years ago. No rim
strips with a ksyrium, and POP.

-Erik

2008/2/28 Brian Engelen :
>
>
>
>
> Has anyone tried the Hutchinson tubeless tires with Stan's No Tubes rim
> strips and sealant? I've only seen this stuff on the web.

gschreckchat@comcast.net

2008-02-28

I sue them on the Dura Ace wheels and they are great. My understanding is that they are not intended for wheels not designed for them due to the fact that the rim needs to have a different flange to accept the bead of the tire which also is different from other tires. Apparently, it is not an issue for mountain bike wheels due to their lower pressure, but is an issue for road wheels at the higher pressures they run. This is what Hutchinson says and I have no personal experience.

According to a Leanard Zinn posting, he did try them on a Ksyrium and the tire blew off.

You may have better luck (or not).

--

George Schreck
gschreckchat@comcast.net
(503) 502-0425

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Brian Engelen"

Has anyone tried the Hutchinson tubeless tires with Stan?s No Tubes rim strips and sealant? I?ve only seen this stuff on the web.

I have a similar setup on the MTB and it works great for preventing flats and reducing wheel weight. Not sure I want to experiment at road speed. Blow-offs wobbles etc.

Brian

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of gschreckchat@comcast.net
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 2:35 PM
To: darellp@easystreet.net; mike.murray@obra.org; 'OBRA List'
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tubulars vs. clinchers

If you do use Fast Tack it can disolve the glue holding the base tap to the tire for certian brands, which leads to unfortunate results. If you use Continental, you really should wait 24 hours before using the wheel. Also, with Continental, you should put a second coat on the rim a few minutes before you mount the tire. The really annoying part is making sure the tire is straight and cleaning bits of glue off your hands after wrestling with the tire.

As for rolling resistance, tests show that the rolling resistance varied greatly for clincher and tubulars, so it really is impossible to make a clear statement. Generally, comparing the same brand of clincher and tubular, the clincher will have slightly less rolling resistance, but many clincher brands had higher rolling resistance that some tubular brands (as well as those particular brads of clinchers) so the rule has very limited use.

Also, the wattage group is most TT guys who tend to be worried more about riding in a straight line as fast as possible. They did not evaluate cornering, nor did they value the ability to ride a tubular when flat. I finished a TT on a flat tubular and whould not have been able to do so with a clincher. Also, to Eric's point, I find that when tubulars flat, they are a bit safer as they stay on the rim and seem (??) to flatten at a slower rate.

If you get carbon wheels like Zipps, the tubular wheels are much lighter.

All that said, tubulars are more expensive and a bit of a bother. It comes down to personal choice and whether the benefits are worth it to you.

--

George Schreck
gschreckchat@comcast.net
(503) 502-0425

-------------- Original message --------------
From: darellp@easystreet.net

> I always wear my helmet when I glue my sew-ups ;-)
>
> Before you glue your sew-up, stretch it out on rim for at least a week or two.
> Pump it up to full inflation. In the past 29 yrs of racing, I've come across 4
> tires that either leaked or in one case was made just a bit too small. All were
> returned with no problems. Once you put glue on it, forget about returning it.
>
> I use 3M fast tack 08031 in tube form. First I apply glue to the rim and leave
> it for 20 min. Then I apply glue to the sew-up and then hang it up for another
> 20 min. Last step is fitting the sew-up onto the rim. Pump up tire to about 20
> PSI and adjust it so it is aligned on the rim. Then pump up to full pressure
> (e.g. 9-12 atmospheres, depe nding on tire). Let it sit overnite (at least 12
> hrs) before using. Never have had a problem. This 3M product is now hard to find
> however. Have also used Conti glue in the past and it's OK.
>
> DP
>
>
> Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Mike Murray"
>
> Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 11:11:00
> To:"'OBRA List'"
> Subject: [OBRA Chat] Tubulars vs. clinchers
>
>
> We might be able to get as many postings with this subject. What do you think?
>
>
> Mike Murray
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf
> Of C M
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 08:08 AM
> To: jon.ragsdale@comcast.net; OBRA List
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Helmets will be mandatory in Van couver , WA
>
> Jon....good job with the original posting, as of this morning I count 71 entries
> related to this topic, this may have set a record.
>
>
> On 2/26/08, jon.ragsdale@comcast.net
> > wrote:
>
> There is a story on the front page of www.kgw.com
> reporting that Vancouver has enacted a rule that in 30 days all cyclists will be
> required to wear helmets. Full story:
> http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_022608_news_vancouver_helmet_law_bicyc
> le.2edad9de.html
>
> cle.2edad9de.html>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/o bra >
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Brian Engelen

2008-02-28

Has anyone tried the Hutchinson tubeless tires with Stan's No Tubes rim
strips and sealant? I've only seen this stuff on the web.

I have a similar setup on the MTB and it works great for preventing flats
and reducing wheel weight. Not sure I want to experiment at road speed.
Blow-offs wobbles etc.

Brian

_____

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of gschreckchat@comcast.net
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 2:35 PM
To: darellp@easystreet.net; mike.murray@obra.org; 'OBRA List'
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tubulars vs. clinchers

If you do use Fast Tack it can disolve the glue holding the base tap to the
tire for certian brands, which leads to unfortunate results. If you use
Continental, you really should wait 24 hours before using the wheel. Also,
with Continental, you should put a second coat on the rim a few minutes
before you mount the tire. The really annoying part is making sure the tire
is straight and cleaning bits of glue off your hands after wrestling with
the tire.

As for rolling resistance, tests show that the rolling resistance varied
greatly for clincher and tubulars, so it really is impossible to make a
clear statement. Generally, comparing the same brand of clincher and
tubular, the clincher will have slightly less rolling resistance, but many
clincher brands had higher rolling resistance that some tubular brands (as
well as those particular brads of clinchers) so the rule has very limited
use.

Also, the wattage group is most TT guys who tend to be worried more about
riding in a straight line as fast as possible. They did not evaluate
cornering, nor did they value the ability to ride a tubular when flat. I
finished a TT on a flat tubular and whould not have been able to do so with
a clincher. Also, to Eric's point, I find that when tubulars flat, they are
a bit safer as they stay on the rim and seem (??) to flatten at a slower
rate.

If you get carbon wheels like Zipps, the tubular wheels are much lighter.

All that said, tubulars are more expensive and a bit of a bother. It comes
down to personal choice and whether the benefits are worth it to you.

--

George Schreck
gschreckchat@comcast.net
(503) 502-0425

-------------- Original message --------------
From: darellp@easystreet.net

> I always wear my helmet when I glue my sew-ups ;-)
>
> Before you glue your sew-up, stretch it out on rim for at least a week or
two.
> Pump it up to full inflation. In the past 29 yrs of racing, I've come
across 4
> tires that either leaked or in one case was made just a bit too small. All
were
> returned with no problems. Once you put glue on it, forget about returning
it.
>
> I use 3M fast tack 08031 in tube form. First I apply glue to the rim and
leave
> it for 20 min. Then I apply glue to the sew-up and then hang it up for
another
> 20 min. Last step is fitting the sew-up onto the rim. Pump up tire to
about 20
> PSI and adjust it so it is aligned on the rim. Then pump up to full
pressure
> (e.g. 9-12 atmospheres, depe nding on tire). Let it sit overnite (at least
12
> hrs) before using. Never have had a problem. This 3M product is now hard
to find
> however. Have also used Conti glue in the past and it's OK.
>
> DP
>
>
> Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Mike Murray"
>
> Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 11:11:00
> To:"'OBRA List'"
> Subject: [OBRA Chat] Tubulars vs. clinchers
>
>
> We might be able to get as many postings with this subject. What do you
think?
>
>
> Mike Murray
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf
> Of C M
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 08:08 AM
> To: jon.ragsdale@comcast.net; OBRA List
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Helmets will be mandatory in Van couver , WA
>
> Jon....good job with the original posting, as of this morning I count 71
entries
> related to this topic, this may have set a record.
>
>
> On 2/26/08, jon.ragsdale@comcast.net
> > wrote:
>
> There is a story on the front page of www.kgw.com
> reporting that Vancouver has enacted a rule that in 30 days all cyclists
will be
> required to wear helmets. Full story:
>
http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_022608_news_vancouver_helmet_law_b
icyc
> le.2edad9de.html
>
> cle.2edad9de.html>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/o bra >
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
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> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

EAL

2008-02-28

Thanks all, for the great advice. I'm thinking I'm going to head down to Bike Central after all in light of the liklihood of me creating a spectuacular YouTube video of a high speed (OK, low speed in my case) Alpenrose Yard Sale.

Ed
Steve Brown wrote:
This is all very confusing but let me know if I have this correct. Rolling resistance (RR) is determined primarily by tire deflection. Wide tires deflect less than skinny tires, so a wide tire with a high thread count is the best solution for RR. But wheel weight and aerodynamics are more important to overall speed than RR. So when you lighten up the wheel and go to narrower tire for less weight and better aerodynamics you need to increase tire pressure to eliminate deflection, but at a certain point over inflation will gain you little advantage.

Steve Brown
On Feb 28, 2008, at 12:29 PM, Tony McCray wrote:

I did a lot of research last year before buying a new set of wheels, and most of what I read suggested that a quality modern clincher is just as good as a tubular. Also, inflating your tubulars to a billion psi isn't necessary http://www.zipp.com/Portals/0/Shopping/Images/tire_pressures.jpg

-Tony

2008/2/28 tackyglueit :
i could have it backwards but im pretty sure that's what ive read over there. you should check it out, some of the conversations they have over there are pretty lettered.

On Thu, Feb 28, 2008 at 12:12 PM, Jerald M Powell wrote:
I have two questions for Mr "glueit"... First, (unless there's been some kind of celestial shift), don't you have that backwards? and Second, have you seen a rush by trackies to get wired-on track tires (if there is there such a thing)?

And one observation... The choice might depend on what the rims are that you have. On the road, the differences seem to be kind of academic. Cost for a similarly "durable" (OK, a twenty or thirty dollar tire/tube) or race-able tire (say, a tire combination that costs a bit over twice that) is similar, "tire life" is similar, and the trade off seems to be that the tub is harder to repair (and frequently is just discarded) but frankly, less often in need of repair.

Jerry

On Feb 28, 2008, at 11:46 AM, tackyglueit wrote:

all the guys over on the wattage site say clinchers are the way to go. too much rolling resistance with a tubular.

2008/2/28 Rick Johnson :
Yea, even BikePortland is up to 104 comments on the helmet law.

But, I'm interest in hearing more about tubulars - are they really worth the money and hassle? So far I've not heard enough to convince me.

Rick

Bryan Curry wrote:
No. I've seen 900+ messages on helmet usage within a single thread at Google groups. OBRA members are slackin'.
-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Mike Murray
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 11:11 AM
To: 'OBRA List'
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Tubulars vs. clinchers

We might be able to get as many postings with this subject. What do you think?

Mike Murray
-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of C M
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 08:08 AM
To: jon.ragsdale@comcast.net; OBRA List
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Helmets will be mandatory in Vancouver, WA

Jon....good job with the original posting, as of this morning I count 71 entries related to this topic, this may have set a record.

On 2/26/08, jon.ragsdale@comcast.net wrote: There is a story on the front page of www.kgw.com reporting that Vancouver has enacted a rule that in 30 days all cyclists will be required to wear helmets. Full story: http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_022608_news_vancouver_helmet_law_bicycle.2edad9de.html

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EAL

2008-02-28

Thanks, Saul. Just what we all needed; a refresh of THIS image at the start of racing season. On the other hand, Lance's foray down the hill will help when CCX starts up again.

Saul Lopez wrote: No but if you've glued it on wrong or on a nice, hot road you can easily do this! (can also have a clincher pop off too..)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_8m5-sR6I4

Devin Flynn wrote:
You can't easily do this on a clincher...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOtqNQJQcuU

-Devin (3 wheelsets tubular / 2 wheelset clincher)

Steven Beardsley wrote:
v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} Ya, I guess all the euro pros just like to make it hard on themselves by riding tubulars all the time.

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of tackyglueit
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 11:46 AM
To: Rick Johnson
Cc: OBRA Whine & Cheese; Bryan Curry
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tubulars vs. clinchers

all the guys over on the wattage site say clinchers are the way to go. too much rolling resistance with a tubular.
2008/2/28 Rick Johnson :
Yea, even BikePortland is up to 104 comments on the helmet law.

But, I'm interest in hearing more about tubulars - are they really worth the money and hassle? So far I've not heard enough to convince me.

Rick

Bryan Curry wrote:
No. I've seen 900+ messages on helmet usage within a single thread at Google groups. OBRA members are slackin'.

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Mike Murray
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 11:11 AM
To: 'OBRA List'
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Tubulars vs. clinchers
We might be able to get as many postings with this subject. What do you think?

Mike Murray
-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of C M
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 08:08 AM
To: jon.ragsdale@comcast.net; OBRA List
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Helmets will be mandatory in Vancouver, WA
Jon....good job with the original posting, as of this morning I count 71 entries related to this topic, this may have set a record.
On 2/26/08, jon.ragsdale@comcast.net wrote:
There is a story on the front page of www.kgw.com reporting that Vancouver has enacted a rule that in 30 days all cyclists will be required to wear helmets. Full story: http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_022608_news_vancouver_helmet_law_bicycle.2edad9de.html

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gschreckchat@comcast.net

2008-02-28

If you do use Fast Tack it can disolve the glue holding the base tap to the tire for certian brands, which leads to unfortunate results. If you use Continental, you really should wait 24 hours before using the wheel. Also, with Continental, you should put a second coat on the rim a few minutes before you mount the tire. The really annoying part is making sure the tire is straight and cleaning bits of glue off your hands after wrestling with the tire.

As for rolling resistance, tests show that the rolling resistance varied greatly for clincher and tubulars, so it really is impossible to make a clear statement. Generally, comparing the same brand of clincher and tubular, the clincher will have slightly less rolling resistance, but many clincher brands had higher rolling resistance that some tubular brands (as well as those particular brads of clinchers) so the rule has very limited use.

Also, the wattage group is most TT guys who tend to be worried more about riding in a straight line as fast as possible. They did not evaluate cornering, nor did they value the ability to ride a tubular when flat. I finished a TT on a flat tubular and whould not have been able to do so with a clincher. Also, to Eric's point, I find that when tubulars flat, they are a bit safer as they stay on the rim and seem (??) to flatten at a slower rate.

If you get carbon wheels like Zipps, the tubular wheels are much lighter.

All that said, tubulars are more expensive and a bit of a bother. It comes down to personal choice and whether the benefits are worth it to you.

--

George Schreck
gschreckchat@comcast.net
(503) 502-0425

-------------- Original message --------------
From: darellp@easystreet.net

> I always wear my helmet when I glue my sew-ups ;-)
>
> Before you glue your sew-up, stretch it out on rim for at least a week or two.
> Pump it up to full inflation. In the past 29 yrs of racing, I've come across 4
> tires that either leaked or in one case was made just a bit too small. All were
> returned with no problems. Once you put glue on it, forget about returning it.
>
> I use 3M fast tack 08031 in tube form. First I apply glue to the rim and leave
> it for 20 min. Then I apply glue to the sew-up and then hang it up for another
> 20 min. Last step is fitting the sew-up onto the rim. Pump up tire to about 20
> PSI and adjust it so it is aligned on the rim. Then pump up to full pressure
> (e.g. 9-12 atmospheres, depending on tire). Let it sit overnite (at least 12
> hrs) before using. Never have had a problem. This 3M product is now hard to find
> however. Have also used Conti glue in the past and it's OK.
>
> DP
>
>
> Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Mike Murray"
>
> Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 11:11:00
> To:"'OBRA List'"
> Subject: [OBRA Chat] Tubulars vs. clinchers
>
>
> We might be able to get as many postings with this subject. What do you think?
>
>
> Mike Murray
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf
> Of C M
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 08:08 AM
> To: jon.ragsdale@comcast.net; OBRA List
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Helmets will be mandatory in Vancouver, WA
>
> Jon....good job with the original posting, as of this morning I count 71 entries
> related to this topic, this may have set a record.
>
>
> On 2/26/08, jon.ragsdale@comcast.net
> > wrote:
>
> There is a story on the front page of www.kgw.com
> reporting that Vancouver has enacted a rule that in 30 days all cyclists will be
> required to wear helmets. Full story:
> http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_022608_news_vancouver_helmet_law_bicyc
> le.2edad9de.html
> > cle.2edad9de.html>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
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Steve Brown

2008-02-28

This is all very confusing but let me know if I have this correct.
Rolling resistance (RR) is determined primarily by tire deflection.
Wide tires deflect less than skinny tires, so a wide tire with a high
thread count is the best solution for RR. But wheel weight and
aerodynamics are more important to overall speed than RR. So when you
lighten up the wheel and go to narrower tire for less weight and
better aerodynamics you need to increase tire pressure to eliminate
deflection, but at a certain point over inflation will gain you
little advantage.

Steve Brown
On Feb 28, 2008, at 12:29 PM, Tony McCray wrote:

> I did a lot of research last year before buying a new set of
> wheels, and most of what I read suggested that a quality modern
> clincher is just as good as a tubular. Also, inflating your
> tubulars to a billion psi isn't necessary http://www.zipp.com/
> Portals/0/Shopping/Images/tire_pressures.jpg
>
> -Tony
>
> 2008/2/28 tackyglueit :
> i could have it backwards but im pretty sure that's what ive read
> over there. you should check it out, some of the conversations
> they have over there are pretty lettered.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 28, 2008 at 12:12 PM, Jerald M Powell
> wrote:
> I have two questions for Mr "glueit"... First, (unless there's been
> some kind of celestial shift), don't you have that backwards? and
> Second, have you seen a rush by trackies to get wired-on track
> tires (if there is there such a thing)?
>
> And one observation... The choice might depend on what the rims are
> that you have. On the road, the differences seem to be kind of
> academic. Cost for a similarly "durable" (OK, a twenty or thirty
> dollar tire/tube) or race-able tire (say, a tire combination that
> costs a bit over twice that) is similar, "tire life" is similar,
> and the trade off seems to be that the tub is harder to repair (and
> frequently is just discarded) but frankly, less often in need of
> repair.
>
> Jerry
>
> On Feb 28, 2008, at 11:46 AM, tackyglueit wrote:
>
>> all the guys over on the wattage site say clinchers are the way to
>> go. too much rolling resistance with a tubular.
>>
>> 2008/2/28 Rick Johnson :
>> Yea, even BikePortland is up to 104 comments on the helmet law.
>>
>> But, I'm interest in hearing more about tubulars - are they really
>> worth the money and hassle? So far I've not heard enough to
>> convince me.
>>
>> Rick
>>
>> Bryan Curry wrote:
>>>
>>> No. I've seen 900+ messages on helmet usage within a single
>>> thread at Google groups. OBRA members are slackin'.
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-
>>> bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Mike Murray
>>> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 11:11 AM
>>> To: 'OBRA List'
>>> Subject: [OBRA Chat] Tubulars vs. clinchers
>>>
>>> We might be able to get as many postings with this subject. What
>>> do you think?
>>>
>>>
>>> Mike Murray
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-
>>> bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of C M
>>> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 08:08 AM
>>> To: jon.ragsdale@comcast.net; OBRA List
>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Helmets will be mandatory in Vancouver, WA
>>>
>>> Jon....good job with the original posting, as of this morning I
>>> count 71 entries related to this topic, this may have set a record.
>>>
>>> On 2/26/08, jon.ragsdale@comcast.net
>>> wrote:
>>> There is a story on the front page of www.kgw.com reporting that
>>> Vancouver has enacted a rule that in 30 days all cyclists will be
>>> required to wear helmets. Full story: http://www.kgw.com/news-
>>> local/stories/kgw_022608_news_vancouver_helmet_law_bicycle.
>>> 2edad9de.html
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OBRA mailing list
>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OBRA mailing list
>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
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>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
>
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Haverty, Chris

2008-02-28

Tubulars can roll and are therefore unsafe. In fact, I'm starting a petition to ban tubulars in Oregon. Who is with me on this! It is for your own safety!

Do you think a state law is enough or should we push for a constitutional amendment?

Chris

Rick Johnson wrote:
Yea, even BikePortland is up to 104 comments on the helmet law.

But, I'm interest in hearing more about tubulars - are they really worth the money and hassle? So far I've not heard enough to convince me.

Rick

Bryan Curry wrote: No. I've seen 900+ messages on helmet usage within a single thread at Google groups. OBRA members are slackin'.
-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Mike Murray
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 11:11 AM
To: 'OBRA List'
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Tubulars vs. clinchers

We might be able to get as many postings with this subject. What do you think?

Mike Murray
-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of C M
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 08:08 AM
To: jon.ragsdale@comcast.net; OBRA List
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Helmets will be mandatory in Vancouver, WA

Jon....good job with the original posting, as of this morning I count 71 entries related to this topic, this may have set a record.

On 2/26/08, jon.ragsdale@comcast.net wrote: There is a story on the front page of www.kgw.com reporting that Vancouver has enacted a rule that in 30 days all cyclists will be required to wear helmets. Full story: http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_022608_news_vancouver_helmet_law_bicycle.2edad9de.html

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Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

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Saul Lopez

2008-02-28

No but if you've glued it on wrong or on a nice, hot road you can easily do this! (can also have a clincher pop off too..)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_8m5-sR6I4

Devin Flynn wrote:
You can't easily do this on a clincher...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOtqNQJQcuU

-Devin (3 wheelsets tubular / 2 wheelset clincher)

Steven Beardsley wrote:
v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} Ya, I guess all the euro pros just like to make it hard on themselves by riding tubulars all the time.

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of tackyglueit
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 11:46 AM
To: Rick Johnson
Cc: OBRA Whine & Cheese; Bryan Curry
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tubulars vs. clinchers

all the guys over on the wattage site say clinchers are the way to go. too much rolling resistance with a tubular.
2008/2/28 Rick Johnson :
Yea, even BikePortland is up to 104 comments on the helmet law.

But, I'm interest in hearing more about tubulars - are they really worth the money and hassle? So far I've not heard enough to convince me.

Rick

Bryan Curry wrote:
No. I've seen 900+ messages on helmet usage within a single thread at Google groups. OBRA members are slackin'.

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Mike Murray
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 11:11 AM
To: 'OBRA List'
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Tubulars vs. clinchers
We might be able to get as many postings with this subject. What do you think?

Mike Murray
-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of C M
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 08:08 AM
To: jon.ragsdale@comcast.net; OBRA List
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Helmets will be mandatory in Vancouver, WA
Jon....good job with the original posting, as of this morning I count 71 entries related to this topic, this may have set a record.
On 2/26/08, jon.ragsdale@comcast.net wrote:
There is a story on the front page of www.kgw.com reporting that Vancouver has enacted a rule that in 30 days all cyclists will be required to wear helmets. Full story: http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_022608_news_vancouver_helmet_law_bicycle.2edad9de.html

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Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

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Devin Flynn
Cycling Blog: http://www.rcmt.blogspot.com
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john

2008-02-28

Getting a flat on the track with a clincher would be quite the feat in itself. if you really try hard, of course possible :
1. low inflation pressure, and you pinch. easily prevented.
2. a freshly installed tire and tube that was done wrong (twisted or ? ) easily prevented...
3. you have embedded glass that finally gets the tube. easily prevented...
4. act of God or other?

As someone who usually rides to the track on my track bike, I check for cuts and embedded glass when i get up there. Usually carry a spare folded tire just in case... (note embedded glass and cuts are typically only a problem when raining.. whenever i check any of my tires in the winter there is at least a couple glass slivers in a high quality tire say GP4000, and up to 10 or so in lower quality thicker rubber tire.. most small, but nonetheless. )

I have always had a problem with the glue-squirming-theory on affecting the rolling efficiency of tubulars. the guys who did the testing though swear up and down that its there and that they did the test correctly... Of course for hard glue there is no squirming, but then the tire is on the rim for the life of the tire (or said anther way, if you try to take the tire off, the tire's life is over). The ride of a tubular is nice though, still remember a crit in 89 downtown detroit on cobbles , someone crashed, i flipped, got a free lap and a tubular front. Whoa so nice, more secure on the bumpy corners, so faster.. I would think ride quality has to be worth a whole lot, especially the reduced shock and vibration fatigue on very long pro races..

I won't mess with tubulars anymore, just not worth my time or trouble at my level. (But there is no denying the nice ride especially on bumpy surfaces and lighter weight.) Even as a notorious DIYer, i would now have Bike Central or someone else do the mounting for me, then they are done for the next year or two ... but then i would need to get a locker at the track or drive to the track, obviously no way i would ride these on the road and chance a flat. i use get out the needle and thread and repair tubulars, it has to be done perfectly and those tubes are so thin or latex, and i wouldn't race on a repaired tubular anyway...

----- Original Message ----
From: Erik Voldengen
To: OBRA
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 11:53:04 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tubulars vs. clinchers

Well, consider this:

The track is banked at something like 43 degrees. As someone who's
fallen from the VERY top, I can attest that it's a long ways down.

If you get a puncture on that banking, odds are a clincher will come
off. Riding a bare rim on the 43 degree banking would probably suck.

If you puncture with a tubular, it will at least stay on the rim,
giving you enough traction to make it to the infield.

-Erik
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Devin Flynn

2008-02-28

You can't easily do this on a clincher...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOtqNQJQcuU

-Devin (3 wheelsets tubular / 2 wheelset clincher)

Steven Beardsley wrote:
v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} Ya, I guess all the euro pros just like to make it hard on themselves by riding tubulars all the time.

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of tackyglueit
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 11:46 AM
To: Rick Johnson
Cc: OBRA Whine & Cheese; Bryan Curry
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tubulars vs. clinchers

all the guys over on the wattage site say clinchers are the way to go. too much rolling resistance with a tubular.
2008/2/28 Rick Johnson :
Yea, even BikePortland is up to 104 comments on the helmet law.

But, I'm interest in hearing more about tubulars - are they really worth the money and hassle? So far I've not heard enough to convince me.

Rick

Bryan Curry wrote:
No. I've seen 900+ messages on helmet usage within a single thread at Google groups. OBRA members are slackin'.

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Mike Murray
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 11:11 AM
To: 'OBRA List'
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Tubulars vs. clinchers
We might be able to get as many postings with this subject. What do you think?

Mike Murray
-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of C M
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 08:08 AM
To: jon.ragsdale@comcast.net; OBRA List
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Helmets will be mandatory in Vancouver, WA
Jon....good job with the original posting, as of this morning I count 71 entries related to this topic, this may have set a record.
On 2/26/08, jon.ragsdale@comcast.net wrote:
There is a story on the front page of www.kgw.com reporting that Vancouver has enacted a rule that in 30 days all cyclists will be required to wear helmets. Full story: http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_022608_news_vancouver_helmet_law_bicycle.2edad9de.html

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

---------------------------------

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Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

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Devin Flynn
Cycling Blog: http://www.rcmt.blogspot.com

---------------------------------
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Tony McCray

2008-02-28

I did a lot of research last year before buying a new set of wheels, and
most of what I read suggested that a quality modern clincher is just as good
as a tubular. Also, inflating your tubulars to a billion psi isn't necessary
http://www.zipp.com/Portals/0/Shopping/Images/tire_pressures.jpg

-Tony

2008/2/28 tackyglueit :

> i could have it backwards but im pretty sure that's what ive read over
> there. you should check it out, some of the conversations they have over
> there are pretty lettered.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 28, 2008 at 12:12 PM, Jerald M Powell
> wrote:
>
> > I have two questions for Mr "glueit"... First, (unless there's been some
> > kind of celestial shift), don't you have that backwards? and Second, have
> > you seen a rush by trackies to get wired-on track tires (if there is there
> > such a thing)?
> > And one observation... The choice might depend on what the rims are that
> > you have. On the road, the differences seem to be kind of academic. Cost
> > for a similarly "durable" (OK, a twenty or thirty dollar tire/tube) or
> > race-able tire (say, a tire combination that costs a bit over twice that) is
> > similar, "tire life" is similar, and the trade off seems to be that the tub
> > is harder to repair (and frequently is just discarded) but frankly, less
> > often in need of repair.
> >
> > Jerry
> >
> > On Feb 28, 2008, at 11:46 AM, tackyglueit wrote:
> >
> > all the guys over on the wattage site say clinchers are the way to
> > go. too much rolling resistance with a tubular.
> >
> > 2008/2/28 Rick Johnson :
> >
> > > Yea, even BikePortland is up to 104 comments on the helmet law.
> > >
> > > But, I'm interest in hearing more about tubulars - are they really
> > > worth the money and hassle? So far I've not heard enough to convince me.
> > >
> > > Rick
> > >
> > > Bryan Curry wrote:
> > >
> > > No. I've seen 900+ messages on helmet usage within a single
> > > thread at Google groups. OBRA members are slackin'.
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > *From:* obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org]
> > > *On Behalf Of *Mike Murray
> > > *Sent:* Thursday, February 28, 2008 11:11 AM
> > > *To:* 'OBRA List'
> > > *Subject:* [OBRA Chat] Tubulars vs. clinchers
> > >
> > > We might be able to get as many postings with this subject. What do
> > > you think?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Mike Murray
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > *From:* obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org]
> > > *On Behalf Of *C M
> > > *Sent:* Thursday, February 28, 2008 08:08 AM
> > > *To:* jon.ragsdale@comcast.net; OBRA List
> > > *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] Helmets will be mandatory in Vancouver, WA
> > >
> > > Jon....good job with the original posting, as of this morning I count
> > > 71 entries related to this topic, this may have set a record.
> > >
> > > On 2/26/08, jon.ragsdale@comcast.net wrote:
> > > >
> > > > There is a story on the front page of www.kgw.com reporting that
> > > > Vancouver has enacted a rule that in 30 days all cyclists will be required
> > > > to wear helmets. Full story:
> > > > http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_022608_news_vancouver_helmet_law_bicycle.2edad9de.html
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > OBRA mailing list
> > > > obra@list.obra.org
> > > > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > > > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> > > >
> > > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > OBRA mailing listobra@list.obra.orghttp://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > OBRA mailing list
> > > obra@list.obra.org
> > > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> > >
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

tackyglueit

2008-02-28

i could have it backwards but im pretty sure that's what ive read over
there. you should check it out, some of the conversations they have over
there are pretty lettered.

On Thu, Feb 28, 2008 at 12:12 PM, Jerald M Powell
wrote:

> I have two questions for Mr "glueit"... First, (unless there's been some
> kind of celestial shift), don't you have that backwards? and Second, have
> you seen a rush by trackies to get wired-on track tires (if there is there
> such a thing)?
> And one observation... The choice might depend on what the rims are that
> you have. On the road, the differences seem to be kind of academic. Cost
> for a similarly "durable" (OK, a twenty or thirty dollar tire/tube) or
> race-able tire (say, a tire combination that costs a bit over twice that) is
> similar, "tire life" is similar, and the trade off seems to be that the tub
> is harder to repair (and frequently is just discarded) but frankly, less
> often in need of repair.
>
> Jerry
>
> On Feb 28, 2008, at 11:46 AM, tackyglueit wrote:
>
> all the guys over on the wattage site say clinchers are the way to go.
> too much rolling resistance with a tubular.
>
> 2008/2/28 Rick Johnson :
>
> > Yea, even BikePortland is up to 104 comments on the helmet law.
> >
> > But, I'm interest in hearing more about tubulars - are they really worth
> > the money and hassle? So far I've not heard enough to convince me.
> >
> > Rick
> >
> > Bryan Curry wrote:
> >
> > No. I've seen 900+ messages on helmet usage within a single thread at
> > Google groups. OBRA members are slackin'.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > *From:* obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org]
> > *On Behalf Of *Mike Murray
> > *Sent:* Thursday, February 28, 2008 11:11 AM
> > *To:* 'OBRA List'
> > *Subject:* [OBRA Chat] Tubulars vs. clinchers
> >
> > We might be able to get as many postings with this subject. What do you
> > think?
> >
> >
> >
> > Mike Murray
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > *From:* obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org]
> > *On Behalf Of *C M
> > *Sent:* Thursday, February 28, 2008 08:08 AM
> > *To:* jon.ragsdale@comcast.net; OBRA List
> > *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] Helmets will be mandatory in Vancouver, WA
> >
> > Jon....good job with the original posting, as of this morning I count 71
> > entries related to this topic, this may have set a record.
> >
> > On 2/26/08, jon.ragsdale@comcast.net wrote:
> > >
> > > There is a story on the front page of www.kgw.com reporting that
> > > Vancouver has enacted a rule that in 30 days all cyclists will be required
> > > to wear helmets. Full story:
> > > http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_022608_news_vancouver_helmet_law_bicycle.2edad9de.html
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > OBRA mailing list
> > > obra@list.obra.org
> > > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> > >
> > >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing listobra@list.obra.orghttp://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>

Jerald M Powell

2008-02-28

I have two questions for Mr "glueit"... First, (unless there's been
some kind of celestial shift), don't you have that backwards? and
Second, have you seen a rush by trackies to get wired-on track tires
(if there is there such a thing)?

And one observation... The choice might depend on what the rims are
that you have. On the road, the differences seem to be kind of
academic. Cost for a similarly "durable" (OK, a twenty or thirty
dollar tire/tube) or race-able tire (say, a tire combination that
costs a bit over twice that) is similar, "tire life" is similar, and
the trade off seems to be that the tub is harder to repair (and
frequently is just discarded) but frankly, less often in need of repair.

Jerry

On Feb 28, 2008, at 11:46 AM, tackyglueit wrote:

> all the guys over on the wattage site say clinchers are the way to
> go. too much rolling resistance with a tubular.
>
> 2008/2/28 Rick Johnson :
> Yea, even BikePortland is up to 104 comments on the helmet law.
>
> But, I'm interest in hearing more about tubulars - are they really
> worth the money and hassle? So far I've not heard enough to convince
> me.
>
> Rick
>
> Bryan Curry wrote:
>>
>> No. I've seen 900+ messages on helmet usage within a single thread
>> at Google groups. OBRA members are slackin'.
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-
>> bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Mike Murray
>> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 11:11 AM
>> To: 'OBRA List'
>> Subject: [OBRA Chat] Tubulars vs. clinchers
>>
>> We might be able to get as many postings with this subject. What
>> do you think?
>>
>>
>> Mike Murray
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-
>> bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of C M
>> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 08:08 AM
>> To: jon.ragsdale@comcast.net; OBRA List
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Helmets will be mandatory in Vancouver, WA
>>
>> Jon....good job with the original posting, as of this morning I
>> count 71 entries related to this topic, this may have set a record.
>>
>> On 2/26/08, jon.ragsdale@comcast.net
>> wrote:
>> There is a story on the front page of www.kgw.com reporting that
>> Vancouver has enacted a rule that in 30 days all cyclists will be
>> required to wear helmets. Full story: http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_022608_news_vancouver_helmet_law_bicycle.2edad9de.html
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Steve Brown

2008-02-28

Is there a good 200 psi clincher that will work well with my rear disk?

On Feb 28, 2008, at 11:46 AM, tackyglueit wrote:

> all the guys over on the wattage site say clinchers are the way to
> go. too much rolling resistance with a tubular.
>
> 2008/2/28 Rick Johnson :
> Yea, even BikePortland is up to 104 comments on the helmet law.
>
> But, I'm interest in hearing more about tubulars - are they really
> worth the money and hassle? So far I've not heard enough to
> convince me.
>
> Rick
>
> Bryan Curry wrote:
>>
>> No. I've seen 900+ messages on helmet usage within a single
>> thread at Google groups. OBRA members are slackin'.
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-
>> bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Mike Murray
>> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 11:11 AM
>> To: 'OBRA List'
>> Subject: [OBRA Chat] Tubulars vs. clinchers
>>
>> We might be able to get as many postings with this subject. What
>> do you think?
>>
>>
>> Mike Murray
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-
>> bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of C M
>> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 08:08 AM
>> To: jon.ragsdale@comcast.net; OBRA List
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Helmets will be mandatory in Vancouver, WA
>>
>> Jon....good job with the original posting, as of this morning I
>> count 71 entries related to this topic, this may have set a record.
>>
>> On 2/26/08, jon.ragsdale@comcast.net
>> wrote:
>> There is a story on the front page of www.kgw.com reporting that
>> Vancouver has enacted a rule that in 30 days all cyclists will be
>> required to wear helmets. Full story: http://www.kgw.com/news-
>> local/stories/kgw_022608_news_vancouver_helmet_law_bicycle.
>> 2edad9de.html
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

darellp@easystreet.net

2008-02-28

I always wear my helmet when I glue my sew-ups ;-)

Before you glue your sew-up, stretch it out on rim for at least a week or two. Pump it up to full inflation. In the past 29 yrs of racing, I've come across 4 tires that either leaked or in one case was made just a bit too small. All were returned with no problems. Once you put glue on it, forget about returning it.

I use 3M fast tack 08031 in tube form. First I apply glue to the rim and leave it for 20 min. Then I apply glue to the sew-up and then hang it up for another 20 min. Last step is fitting the sew-up onto the rim. Pump up tire to about 20 PSI and adjust it so it is aligned on the rim. Then pump up to full pressure (e.g. 9-12 atmospheres, depending on tire). Let it sit overnite (at least 12 hrs) before using. Never have had a problem. This 3M product is now hard to find however. Have also used Conti glue in the past and it's OK.

DP

Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: "Mike Murray"

Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 11:11:00
To:"'OBRA List'"
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Tubulars vs. clinchers

We might be able to get as many postings with this subject. What do you think?

Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of C M
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 08:08 AM
To: jon.ragsdale@comcast.net; OBRA List
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Helmets will be mandatory in Vancouver, WA

Jon....good job with the original posting, as of this morning I count 71 entries related to this topic, this may have set a record.

On 2/26/08, jon.ragsdale@comcast.net > wrote:

There is a story on the front page of www.kgw.com reporting that Vancouver has enacted a rule that in 30 days all cyclists will be required to wear helmets. Full story: http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_022608_news_vancouver_helmet_law_bicycle.2edad9de.html
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________
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obra@list.obra.org
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Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Long, Steve

2008-02-28

You mean like Beloki's 2003 tdf crash when the tublular rolled off the
rim?

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Erik Voldengen
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 11:53 AM
To: OBRA
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tubulars vs. clinchers

Well, consider this:

The track is banked at something like 43 degrees. As someone who's
fallen from the VERY top, I can attest that it's a long ways down.

If you get a puncture on that banking, odds are a clincher will come
off. Riding a bare rim on the 43 degree banking would probably suck.

If you puncture with a tubular, it will at least stay on the rim, giving
you enough traction to make it to the infield.

-Erik
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obra@list.obra.org
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Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Steven Beardsley

2008-02-28

Ya, I guess all the euro pros just like to make it hard on themselves by
riding tubulars all the time.

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of tackyglueit
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 11:46 AM
To: Rick Johnson
Cc: OBRA Whine & Cheese; Bryan Curry
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tubulars vs. clinchers

all the guys over on the wattage site say clinchers are the way to go. too
much rolling resistance with a tubular.

2008/2/28 Rick Johnson :

Yea, even BikePortland is up to 104 comments on the helmet law.

But, I'm interest in hearing more about tubulars - are they really worth the
money and hassle? So far I've not heard enough to convince me.

Rick

Bryan Curry wrote:

No. I've seen 900+ messages on helmet usage within a single thread at
Google groups. OBRA members are slackin'.

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Mike Murray
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 11:11 AM
To: 'OBRA List'
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Tubulars vs. clinchers

We might be able to get as many postings with this subject. What do you
think?

Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of C M
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 08:08 AM
To: jon.ragsdale@comcast.net; OBRA List
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Helmets will be mandatory in Vancouver, WA

Jon....good job with the original posting, as of this morning I count 71
entries related to this topic, this may have set a record.

On 2/26/08, jon.ragsdale@comcast.net wrote:

There is a story on the front page of www.kgw.com
reporting that Vancouver has enacted a rule that in 30 days all cyclists
will be required to wear helmets. Full story:
http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_022608_news_vancouver_helmet_law_b
icycle.2edad9de.html

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_____

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Erik Voldengen

2008-02-28

Well, consider this:

The track is banked at something like 43 degrees. As someone who's
fallen from the VERY top, I can attest that it's a long ways down.

If you get a puncture on that banking, odds are a clincher will come
off. Riding a bare rim on the 43 degree banking would probably suck.

If you puncture with a tubular, it will at least stay on the rim,
giving you enough traction to make it to the infield.

-Erik

tackyglueit

2008-02-28

all the guys over on the wattage site say clinchers are the way to go. too
much rolling resistance with a tubular.

2008/2/28 Rick Johnson :

> Yea, even BikePortland is up to 104 comments on the helmet law.
>
> But, I'm interest in hearing more about tubulars - are they really worth
> the money and hassle? So far I've not heard enough to convince me.
>
> Rick
>
> Bryan Curry wrote:
>
> No. I've seen 900+ messages on helmet usage within a single thread at
> Google groups. OBRA members are slackin'.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org]
> *On Behalf Of *Mike Murray
> *Sent:* Thursday, February 28, 2008 11:11 AM
> *To:* 'OBRA List'
> *Subject:* [OBRA Chat] Tubulars vs. clinchers
>
> We might be able to get as many postings with this subject. What do you
> think?
>
>
>
> Mike Murray
>
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org]
> *On Behalf Of *C M
> *Sent:* Thursday, February 28, 2008 08:08 AM
> *To:* jon.ragsdale@comcast.net; OBRA List
> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] Helmets will be mandatory in Vancouver, WA
>
> Jon....good job with the original posting, as of this morning I count 71
> entries related to this topic, this may have set a record.
>
> On 2/26/08, jon.ragsdale@comcast.net wrote:
> >
> > There is a story on the front page of www.kgw.com reporting that
> > Vancouver has enacted a rule that in 30 days all cyclists will be required
> > to wear helmets. Full story:
> > http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_022608_news_vancouver_helmet_law_bicycle.2edad9de.html
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> >
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing listobra@list.obra.orghttp://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

Rick Johnson

2008-02-28

Yea, even BikePortland is up to 104 comments on the helmet law.

But, I'm interest in hearing more about tubulars - are they really
worth the money and hassle? So far I've not heard enough to convince
me.

Rick

Bryan Curry wrote:

Message

No. I've
seen 900+ messages on helmet usage within a single thread at Google
groups. OBRA members are slackin'.

-----Original Message-----

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
[mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Mike Murray

Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 11:11 AM

To: 'OBRA List'

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Tubulars vs. clinchers

We might be able to get as many postings
with this subject. What do you think?

Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
[mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of C M

Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 08:08 AM

To: jon.ragsdale@comcast.net; OBRA List

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Helmets will be mandatory in
Vancouver, WA

Jon....good job with the original posting, as of this morning I count
71 entries related to this topic, this may have set a record.

On 2/26/08, jon.ragsdale@comcast.net
<jon.ragsdale@comcast.net>
wrote:

There is a story on the front page of www.kgw.com reporting
that Vancouver has enacted a rule that in 30 days all cyclists will be
required to wear helmets. Full story: http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_022608_news_vancouver_helmet_law_bicycle.2edad9de.html

_______________________________________________

OBRA mailing list

obra@list.obra.org

http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra

Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
_______________________________________________

OBRA mailing list

obra@list.obra.org

http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra

Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

  

Erik Voldengen

2008-02-28

Reminds me of a comic I saw the other day:

http://xkcd.com/386/

-Erik

>
> No. I've seen 900+ messages on helmet usage within a single thread at
> Google groups. OBRA members are slackin'.

Bryan Curry

2008-02-28

No. I've seen 900+ messages on helmet usage within a single thread at
Google groups. OBRA members are slackin'.

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
[mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Mike Murray
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 11:11 AM
To: 'OBRA List'
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Tubulars vs. clinchers

We might be able to get as many postings with this subject.
What do you think?

Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
[mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of C M
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 08:08 AM
To: jon.ragsdale@comcast.net; OBRA List
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Helmets will be mandatory in
Vancouver, WA

Jon....good job with the original posting, as of this
morning I count 71 entries related to this topic, this may have set a
record.

On 2/26/08, jon.ragsdale@comcast.net
wrote:

There is a story on the front page of
www.kgw.com reporting that Vancouver has enacted
a rule that in 30 days all cyclists will be required to wear helmets.
Full story:
http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_022608_news_vancouver_helmet_l
aw_bicycle.2edad9de.html

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Mike Murray

2008-02-28

We might be able to get as many postings with this subject. What do you
think?

Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of C M
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 08:08 AM
To: jon.ragsdale@comcast.net; OBRA List
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Helmets will be mandatory in Vancouver, WA

Jon....good job with the original posting, as of this morning I count 71
entries related to this topic, this may have set a record.

On 2/26/08, jon.ragsdale@comcast.net wrote:

There is a story on the front page of www.kgw.com
reporting that Vancouver has enacted a rule that in 30 days all cyclists
will be required to wear helmets. Full story:
http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_022608_news_vancouver_helmet_law_b
icycle.2edad9de.html

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org