OBRA: OBRA Chat: Sprint

T. Kenji Sugahara

2008-03-31

A couple things-

First off, your feedback is always appreciated and critical to the
growth of OBRA, and I always am willing to listen.

That said, each race venue has its unique characteristics. This one
in particular has narrow roads. It would seem that would be intuitive
that opening a road up at 700m or having a wide finishing stretch
would alleviate some issues. However, as we have seen from many other
races, this is not often the case. I think a lot more has to do with
pack dynamics and risky behavior. Most accidents are caused by
inattention or behavior that riders should not be engaging in.
(sweeping without looking behind, removing articles of clothing in the
middle of a pack, riding on the side of the road or not riding
predictably)

While opening up at 700m would be great, most races would still end up
with riders in 1 or 2 triangles as folks still follow wheels and
maximize draft. I see most issues when people decide to move out of
the draft and sprint. That lateral movement can cause bumping and/or
take out a wheel. That's why it's so important to pay attention to
your surroundings.

In regard to POC, I specifically tailored my race strategy to the
course. I knew the character of the race beforehand and that you need
to move up early on in the game. The course is akin to the Vancouver
Crit. You need to be in the top 10-20 before the last lap starts to
have a chance at scoring well.

I started moving up to the top 15 or so with about 1.25 laps to go.
You really have to fight to keep your position- and I knew that the
back half of the pack would be locked in with about 1 lap to go, the
top 1/3 with about a half lap to go and the top 1/4 with .25 to go.
As you get to the left hander, I took the line on the right hand side
as most people pile into what is assumed the faster line on the
inside. So... something to think about, always tailor your race
strategy to the course and course conditions.

In terms of the blocking issue, it's really interesting as it seems to
crop up every year at about this time. (Take a look at the archives
2007, April 3rd or so) Also... please refrain from behavior that you
yourself would not like to be subject to.

On Mar 31, 2008, at 9:56 PM, r r wrote:
> Why must anyone that mentions or suggest any sort of change
> automatically becomes ostrosive (yes this is misspelled, but I'm too
> tired to figure it out right now and spell check is being cool) and
> criticized in OBRA land. Why not embrace the fact that we all think
> differently, and when someone thinks outside the box, to just think
> about it and consider it rather than instantly par-take in
> scrutinizing and attacking the person who is just merely throwing
> out a thought to just ponder over. It is really sad to see. Our OBRA
> is grand, making it probably the best state to race in. But nothing
> is ever perfect, and if someone steps up with an idea, it would
> benefit us all if its just merely considered. Maybe if one idea
> would be talked about in a non-bias, debatable manner, it would
> encourage more people to voice their ideas to be considered. Yes, a
> democracy in sense. But with people constantly being attacked and
> ridiculed on this chat, it makes it hard for anyone to even gain to
> courage to ask a simple question in fear of the wrath that will be
> released upon them. This is not an attack, so please do not right
> any sort of negative or attacking response back. Like we learned in
> elementary school, if you have nothing nice to say, don't say
> anything at all. Sometimes silence can be the strongest response.
>
> Thank you all for your time
>
> From: bikexcr@hotmail.com
> To: twotiretinker-obra2@yahoo.com; obra@list.obra.org
> Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 21:40:46 -0700
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Sprint, and Portland Velo.
>
> Yes, yes they are. Is PIR not a race on the road? And if you watch
> any race on TV, its the pretty close to the same as PIR. And in some
> ways, having it narrow destroys such phenomenal spectacles of
> athleticism such as Robbie McEwin flatting in the final k's, not at
> the front, and using his team to come around the field and sprint to
> victory at the last second in stage one of TDF. Granted the TDF and
> OBRA is like comparing apples and oranges (so please dont go off on
> that tangent because i just confessed to the difference).
> But in the end...just having longer, wide finish stretch would be
> nice. Just like having the entire road for the entire race would be
> sweet, but will never happen at this level of racing. I mean, if it
> were such as you say, pro races would stay one lane as well, since
> you should be in the front at to begin with, but it dont work that
> way.
>
>
> Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 21:26:46 -0700
> From: twotiretinker-obra2@yahoo.com
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Sprint, and Portland Velo.
>
> The issue seems to be that many of us don't do enough road racing.
> I don't anymore, but use too in the midwest . If I wanted a chance
> at top ten in a field sprint i would start moving up at least 10
> miles from the finish, this is not an exaggeration if large fields
> of skilled pack riders. It was hard to move up, usually could only
> do it at corners or if someone attacked and things opened up and
> then you had to jam faster than everyone else, and then once you
> were up front, you had to be assertive, and attack occasionally just
> to stay.
>
> In a real road race, ie POC, if the pack is bunched and your 2 k
> from the line and not in the first 3 or 4 lines, you don't stand a
> chance, ok slight maybe only if someone jumps soon and things open
> (i would usually be the guy sitting in 3rd line praying someone
> would jump things would open and soon). If you come up on 500 m
> and still bunched, and not in the first two maybe three lines, you
> really don't stand a chance even if your a great sprinter.
>
> Pros coming with lead out trains, thats not really controlling the
> pack, rather its power and speed and everyone trying to stay with or
> trying to get by with their own line.
>
> PIR finishing tactics are not on the same planet as road racing
> finish tactics.
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Quenton Conant
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 6:38:49 PM
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Sprint, and Portland Velo.
>
> Ok. All this finger pointing is kinda lame.
>
> Personally, I've found PV riders are always willing to jump in the
> mix, help out, and work together. They're always willing to share
> the work, and race with class. I've never had a truely negative
> experience from them while racing.
>
> It sucks being a solo rider and having a larger team or two try and
> controll the race. It's fruterating as hell. In the end, if you're
> smart, that experience as a solo rider will most likely make you a
> better racer.
>
> now on to....
>
> I don't think openeing the road before 200m would make anything
> safer to begin with. You'd just have more people with more space to
> get reckless in. Wide roads may make it easier to get around when
> you're cruising in the low to mid 20's, but when the pace picks up
> it strings out anyways, and one lane is plenty.
>
> As far as moving up is concerned. yeah, it sucks when there's not
> movement up front and the pace drops, or it gets hard to manouver
> around. But that's just the way it goes sometimes. After a season or
> two I think most people feel comfortable enough to ride between
> riders safely. Practice it on a group ride sometime. Some
> perceptions of what's dangerous and what's not change with
> experience, and comfort.
> _______________________________________________
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r r

2008-03-31

That was more like the response i was looking for, as far as what is
takes to close the road and the logistics behind it. I never really brought up safety, just that
sprints would flow better and help with the antsyness of waiting for
that 200m mark.

Im just trying to brainstorm some sort of change that could occur since
OBRA is facing a consistent problem so far this year. I know im not the
only one wishing for the road to open up earlier than it does, im just the only one willing to speak up. I was
just seeing if it was logistically possible and if so would it be considered by the race organizers to extend the finish stretch.

From: mike.murray@obra.org
To: obra@list.obra.org
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 19:03:11 -0700
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Sprint

Message

Closing a
road is not so easy to do and the further out the closure is the harder it gets
... exponentially. The difficult thing is dependably know when the
oncoming field will be there and getting the cars stopped well ahead of
that. For a 200 m closure that can generally be done by 1 or 2 people with
a stop paddle and loud voices. Further out requires more forethought,
radios, more people, etc. A wider finish does not necessarily make a safer
finish unless the road gets so wide that there is more space then needed for the
field. Even then it does work all that well as demonstrated by frequent
finish sprint crashes at PIR.

Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----
From:
obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of
G Magnus
Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 18:28 PM
To:
obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat]
Sprint

So I read through all the OBRA Rules and there is
nothing about the distance from the finish that the road can be fully opened
up...OBRA rules state:

15.1.1- Course design -A road course will be designed
and implemented with the safety of the riders foremost. The finish will be
wide enough for the largest field expected.
It will be as straight as possible, with an adequate
run out. The finish line will be a conspicuous line on the road.

If the course is not a circuit, signs will also be
placed marking 200 meters and 1 kilometer before the finish.

Obviously we have some road races where we never get
the full road for varied reasons. Kenji, Candi, Mike can you
shed some light on the traditional 200m full road
sprint?

Totally off this topic but interesting
none the less: Did you know that if you are in dead heat finish for 1st place
in a race that you would re-ride the last portion of the race to
determine a winner? Obra rules 10.3

~Gregg

From: bikexcr@hotmail.com
To: ratliffb@gmail.com
Date: Mon, 31 Mar
2008 18:11:54 -0700
CC: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat]
Sprint

Dont forget every crit as well. We get the
full road for the entire race and sprint there and things flow perfectly
fine as well.

Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 18:09:27 -0700
From: ratliffb@gmail.com
To:
bikexcr@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Sprint
CC:
obra@list.obra.org

Good point. I don't think I have enough
experience to answer it. This is my first full season racing and
I've only done PIR three times in tiny fields (11-16 riders)
late last summer.

On 3/31/08, r r
wrote:

Alas,

Thank you Brian for at least
getting back on topic. Somehow the topic turned into the telephone game,
and turned into a finger pointing contest.

The main point of the
original email was, why not open up the road earlier, if it does not
violate any sort of county permit code that must be followed in order to
have the race put on.

But, in with the road opened earlier, does
not mean everyone will have the ability to move around. Take PIR for
example. See how nicely the sprints work there with the nice wide open
road. Sprints work there how they are suppose to work. And in the
end, the true sprinters and stronger riders still emerge and the
peleton is still strung out despite optimal space for everyoen and their
grandmother to move around in. I guess thats what i am getting at.
Everyone likes a course thats nice and wide open, so why purposely have
it tighter during the most chaotic time, that is if it does not violate
permit code for hosting the race.

Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 17:46:38 -0700
From: ratliffb@gmail.com
To: srh148@yahoo.com
CC: jeff.nelson@yakima.com; obra@list.obra.org

Subject:
Re: [OBRA Chat] Sprint

Just to clear up some misunderstandings
starting to form, for the sake of the peanut gallery
here...

Nobody from any team was riding four abreast "blocking"
the pack, so I've been told. Portland Velo had 4 guys in the
race, and towards the end of the race, they were, all four, near the
front of the peloton, working to try to lead out a sprinter to the
finish. There was no Portland Velo breakaway, so I understand,
that they would be blocking for. I believe that Mr. Nelson
merely found himself in the back half of a slow moving peloton, unable
to move up, and saw a couple Portland Velo jerseys of guys who were
smart enough to make the move up the front of the pack early so they
could contest the finish. I believe they put one man in the top
10 - not terrible for a Cat5 team still learning team tactics.

It is well known that it is difficult to move around in
the pack on the Piece of Cake course. Myself, racing in the 4's,
I had to start making my move about 10 miles from the finish in order
to complete it by the two miles to go mark. Then I sat near the
front, sucking wind, for the last couple miles so I could have a shot
at a good finish. It's just racing is all.

So, to
summarize: No breakaway. No blocking. Just a frustrated
racer who didn't make the move to the front of the peloton early
enough to contest the finish.

To move this thread back
on the original topic; I have sometimes wondered myself why the road
didn't open up sooner than 200m. Particularly at Banana Belt, by
the time 200m came up, the sprinters had already picked their lines
and opening up the other lane had no real affect. On the other
hand, I can see that perhaps the opening of both lanes at 200m is
meant as a pure safety matter, and opening the lane up sooner
would eliminate the safety of having extra room to maneuver in a sprint.

Say the lane opened at 500m, what would happen with a 50+ person peloton? Why, everyone and their Grandma would move up around the side of the peloton to get to the front and fill the road just the same
and their would be no safety benefit at all. The way it is
now, nobody seriously contesting the sprint uses the newly opened lane
(takes too long to move across the road after the sprint has started),
so the open lane acts as a safety buffer in case someone doesn't hold
their line. If there is a crash at the finish, it provides an
escape route to get around.

On 3/31/08, STEVEN R HOLLAND wrote:

I was in a cat 3 race many years ago in the Seattle area. One
team staged in the front. Once the race started, they sent two
riders up the road and put 4 guys across the road blocking the road.
They obviously had this planned. By the time some of us forced our
way up to the front......it was to late...the two riders were gone.

IMO you should never have 4 riders on the front [especially
from one team] just soft peddling. If you do not want to race,
move over so others can. This happens often in all fields. Why sit
on the front? I never understand this. What does this
accomplish, unless you are doing it for the sole purpose of blocking
others from racing?

Ty, I'm sure those other 53 riders would have been happy to
"take their turn at the front" if your fellas would have let
them Why force others to make aggressive moves just to get
by and race?

Steve [I'd rather attack than sit in] Holland

Ty Lambert
wrote:
If 53
other riders could not overcome 4 riders from a particular
team,
perhaps you are in the correct field.
Stop sucking
wheels and start taking your turn at the front.

Ty
Lambert
Portland Velo

-----Original
Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
[mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org]
On
Behalf Of Matthew Klahn
Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 1:58
PM
To: Jerald M Powell
Cc: obra@list.obra.org;
Jeff
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Sprint

Physically pushing
your way through Cat. 5 riders is almost certainly
dangerous
(especially in early season races), and it is unsafe,

irresponsible and unsporting for a team to try this. If you
have a
large enough team to block in this way, and you can't
lead a rider out
to win a sprint, then perhaps you should
rethink your training, etc. I
think Jeff's comments are
spot-on; I didn't race yesterday (and would
not have been in
this category, anyway), but a friend who finished
top-10 in
this race related how this went down in yesterday's sprint

finish. Seems like PV riders could stand to learn some real
team
tactics rather than employ the ones that seem to have
been used the
last two years (!) at PoC.

Just another
reason to get out of the Cat. 4/5 ASAP,
IMO.

Matthew

On Mar 31, 2008, at 1:52 PM, Jerald M
Powell wrote:

> Jeff... "unsafe" might be over cooking
it a bit. "Unwise", or
> "Ineffective" is probably a fair
criticism. "Blocking" by plugging up
> the road, firstly,
doesn't work very well because any physical rider
>
accustomed to a bit of shoulder to hip contact is capable of
riding
> through it (even if it risks criticism for
dangerous riding).
> secondly, it gains no particular
tactical advantage and in fact
> requires just as much
energy from the "blocker" as it does from the
>
"blockee".
>
> Jerry
>
> On Mar 31, 2008,
at 10:52 AM, Jeff wrote:
>> I raced in the Cat 5 race and
would say that the problem with antsy
>> riders and
unsafe riding started as soon as Portland Velo riders
>>
began boxing the group on the second lap. It made the race
unsafe
>> and not fun. The first lap was good, riders
taking turns pulling and
>> a safe
peleton.
>>
>> Kudo's to all Cat 5 riders for
keeping the rubber side down despite
>> the unsafe
tactics of others.
>
>
>
>
> Jerry
Powell
> USAC Level 1 Coach
> 1926 SW Madison
St
> Portland, OR 97205
>
> 503 222 7173
>
503 799 7823 (cellular)
>
> jpowell@spiritone.com
>
>
>
>
>
_______________________________________________
> OBRA
mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>
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David Auker

2008-03-31

Safety in the sprint
depends a lot on speed: the slower it is, the more dangerous, as riders
can spread out all over the place, aided more by aggression than
strength. The faster it rushes at the line, only the strong can handle
being exposed to the wind, and the group's profile will be narrow, not
spread out all over the place. Generally, the best teamwork benefiting
a designated sprinter AND the safety of the everyone is to pick it up,
fast, fast, faster.

David

Mike Murray

2008-03-31

Closing a road is not so easy to do and the further out the closure is the
harder it gets ... exponentially. The difficult thing is dependably know
when the oncoming field will be there and getting the cars stopped well
ahead of that. For a 200 m closure that can generally be done by 1 or 2
people with a stop paddle and loud voices. Further out requires more
forethought, radios, more people, etc. A wider finish does not necessarily
make a safer finish unless the road gets so wide that there is more space
then needed for the field. Even then it does work all that well as
demonstrated by frequent finish sprint crashes at PIR.

Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of G Magnus
Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 18:28 PM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Sprint

So I read through all the OBRA Rules and there is nothing about the distance
from the finish that the road can be fully opened up...OBRA rules state:

15.1.1- Course design -A road course will be designed and implemented with
the safety of the riders foremost. The finish will be wide enough for the
largest field expected.

It will be as straight as possible, with an adequate run out. The finish
line will be a conspicuous line on the road.

If the course is not a circuit, signs will also be placed marking 200 meters
and 1 kilometer before the finish.

Obviously we have some road races where we never get the full road for
varied reasons. Kenji, Candi, Mike can you shed some light on the
traditional 200m full road sprint?

Totally off this topic but interesting none the less: Did you know that if
you are in dead heat finish for 1st place in a race that you would re-ride
the last portion of the race to determine a winner? Obra rules 10.3

~Gregg

_____

From: bikexcr@hotmail.com
To: ratliffb@gmail.com
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 18:11:54 -0700
CC: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Sprint

Dont forget every crit as well. We get the full road for the entire race and
sprint there and things flow perfectly fine as well.

_____

Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 18:09:27 -0700
From: ratliffb@gmail.com
To: bikexcr@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Sprint
CC: obra@list.obra.org

Good point. I don't think I have enough experience to answer it. This is
my first full season racing and I've only done PIR three times in tiny
fields (11-16 riders) late last summer.

On 3/31/08, r r wrote:

Alas,

Thank you Brian for at least getting back on topic. Somehow the topic turned
into the telephone game, and turned into a finger pointing contest.

The main point of the original email was, why not open up the road earlier,
if it does not violate any sort of county permit code that must be followed
in order to have the race put on.

But, in with the road opened earlier, does not mean everyone will have the
ability to move around. Take PIR for example. See how nicely the sprints
work there with the nice wide open road. Sprints work there how they are
suppose to work. And in the end, the true sprinters and stronger riders
still emerge and the peleton is still strung out despite optimal space for
everyoen and their grandmother to move around in. I guess thats what i am
getting at. Everyone likes a course thats nice and wide open, so why
purposely have it tighter during the most chaotic time, that is if it does
not violate permit code for hosting the race.

_____

Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 17:46:38 -0700
From: ratliffb@gmail.com
To: srh148@yahoo.com
CC: jeff.nelson@yakima.com; obra@list.obra.org

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Sprint

Just to clear up some misunderstandings starting to form, for the sake of
the peanut gallery here...

Nobody from any team was riding four abreast "blocking" the pack, so I've
been told. Portland Velo had 4 guys in the race, and towards the end of the
race, they were, all four, near the front of the peloton, working to try to
lead out a sprinter to the finish. There was no Portland Velo breakaway, so
I understand, that they would be blocking for. I believe that Mr. Nelson
merely found himself in the back half of a slow moving peloton, unable to
move up, and saw a couple Portland Velo jerseys of guys who were smart
enough to make the move up the front of the pack early so they could contest
the finish. I believe they put one man in the top 10 - not terrible for a
Cat5 team still learning team tactics.

It is well known that it is difficult to move around in the pack on the
Piece of Cake course. Myself, racing in the 4's, I had to start making my
move about 10 miles from the finish in order to complete it by the two miles
to go mark. Then I sat near the front, sucking wind, for the last couple
miles so I could have a shot at a good finish. It's just racing is all.

So, to summarize: No breakaway. No blocking. Just a frustrated racer who
didn't make the move to the front of the peloton early enough to contest the
finish.

To move this thread back on the original topic; I have sometimes wondered
myself why the road didn't open up sooner than 200m. Particularly at Banana
Belt, by the time 200m came up, the sprinters had already picked their lines
and opening up the other lane had no real affect. On the other hand, I can
see that perhaps the opening of both lanes at 200m is meant as a pure safety
matter, and opening the lane up sooner would eliminate the safety of having
extra room to maneuver in a sprint.

Say the lane opened at 500m, what would happen with a 50+ person peloton?
Why, everyone and their Grandma would move up around the side of the peloton
to get to the front and fill the road just the same and their would be no
safety benefit at all. The way it is now, nobody seriously contesting the
sprint uses the newly opened lane (takes too long to move across the road
after the sprint has started), so the open lane acts as a safety buffer in
case someone doesn't hold their line. If there is a crash at the finish, it
provides an escape route to get around.

On 3/31/08, STEVEN R HOLLAND wrote:

I was in a cat 3 race many years ago in the Seattle area. One team staged in
the front. Once the race started, they sent two riders up the road and put 4
guys across the road blocking the road. They obviously had this planned. By
the time some of us forced our way up to the front......it was to late...the
two riders were gone.

IMO you should never have 4 riders on the front [especially from one team]
just soft peddling. If you do not want to race, move over so others can.
This happens often in all fields. Why sit on the front? I never understand
this. What does this accomplish, unless you are doing it for the sole
purpose of blocking others from racing?

Ty, I'm sure those other 53 riders would have been happy to "take their turn
at the front" if your fellas would have let them Why force others to make
aggressive moves just to get by and race?

Steve [I'd rather attack than sit in] Holland

Ty Lambert wrote:

If 53 other riders could not overcome 4 riders from a particular team,
perhaps you are in the correct field.
Stop sucking wheels and start taking your turn at the front.

Ty Lambert
Portland Velo

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Matthew Klahn
Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 1:58 PM
To: Jerald M Powell
Cc: obra@list.obra.org; Jeff
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Sprint

Physically pushing your way through Cat. 5 riders is almost certainly
dangerous (especially in early season races), and it is unsafe,
irresponsible and unsporting for a team to try this. If you have a
large enough team to block in this way, and you can't lead a rider out
to win a sprint, then perhaps you should rethink your training, etc. I
think Jeff's comments are spot-on; I didn't race yesterday (and would
not have been in this category, anyway), but a friend who finished
top-10 in this race related how this went down in yesterday's sprint
finish. Seems like PV riders could stand to learn some real team
tactics rather than employ the ones that seem to have been used the
last two years (!) at PoC.

Just another reason to get out of the Cat. 4/5 ASAP, IMO.

Matthew

On Mar 31, 2008, at 1:52 PM, Jerald M Powell wrote:

> Jeff... "unsafe" might be over cooking it a bit. "Unwise", or
> "Ineffective" is probably a fair criticism. "Blocking" by plugging up
> the road, firstly, doesn't work very well because any physical rider
> accustomed to a bit of shoulder to hip contact is capable of riding
> through it (even if it risks criticism for dangerous riding).
> secondly, it gains no particular tactical advantage and in fact
> requires just as much energy from the "blocker" as it does from the
> "blockee".
>
> Jerry
>
> On Mar 31, 2008, at 10:52 AM, Jeff wrote:
>> I raced in the Cat 5 race and would say that the problem with antsy
>> riders and unsafe riding started as soon as Portland Velo riders
>> began boxing the group on the second lap. It made the race unsafe
>> and not fun. The first lap was good, riders taking turns pulling and
>> a safe peleton.
>>
>> Kudo's to all Cat 5 riders for keeping the rubber side down despite
>> the unsafe tactics of others.
>
>
>
>
> Jerry Powell
> USAC Level 1 Coach
> 1926 SW Madison St
> Portland, OR 97205
>
> 503 222 7173
> 503 799 7823 (cellular)
>
> jpowell@spiritone.com
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

STEVEN R HOLLAND
17203 SE 30TH ST
VANCOUVER,WA 98683
C(503)780-7296
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obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
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G Magnus

2008-03-31

So I read through all the OBRA Rules and there is nothing about the distance from the finish that the road can be fully opened up...OBRA rules state:
15.1.1- Course design -A road course will be designed and implemented with the safety of the riders foremost. The finish will be wide enough for the largest field expected.
It will be as straight as possible, with an adequate run out. The finish line will be a conspicuous line on the road.
If the course is not a circuit, signs will also be placed marking 200 meters and 1 kilometer before the finish.

Obviously we have some road races where we never get the full road for varied reasons. Kenji, Candi, Mike can you shed some light on the traditional 200m full road sprint?

Totally off this topic but interesting none the less: Did you know that if you are in dead heat finish for 1st place in a race that you would re-ride the last portion of the race to determine a winner? Obra rules 10.3

~Gregg

From: bikexcr@hotmail.comTo: ratliffb@gmail.comDate: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 18:11:54 -0700CC: obra@list.obra.orgSubject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Sprint

Dont forget every crit as well. We get the full road for the entire race and sprint there and things flow perfectly fine as well.

Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 18:09:27 -0700From: ratliffb@gmail.comTo: bikexcr@hotmail.comSubject: Re: [OBRA Chat] SprintCC: obra@list.obra.orgGood point. I don't think I have enough experience to answer it. This is my first full season racing and I've only done PIR three times in tiny fields (11-16 riders) late last summer.
On 3/31/08, r r wrote:

Alas,Thank you Brian for at least getting back on topic. Somehow the topic turned into the telephone game, and turned into a finger pointing contest. The main point of the original email was, why not open up the road earlier, if it does not violate any sort of county permit code that must be followed in order to have the race put on. But, in with the road opened earlier, does not mean everyone will have the ability to move around. Take PIR for example. See how nicely the sprints work there with the nice wide open road. Sprints work there how they are suppose to work. And in the end, the true sprinters and stronger riders still emerge and the peleton is still strung out despite optimal space for everyoen and their grandmother to move around in. I guess thats what i am getting at. Everyone likes a course thats nice and wide open, so why purposely have it tighter during the most chaotic time, that is if it does not violate permit code for hosting the race.

Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 17:46:38 -0700From: ratliffb@gmail.comTo: srh148@yahoo.comCC: jeff.nelson@yakima.com; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] SprintJust to clear up some misunderstandings starting to form, for the sake of the peanut gallery here...Nobody from any team was riding four abreast "blocking" the pack, so I've been told. Portland Velo had 4 guys in the race, and towards the end of the race, they were, all four, near the front of the peloton, working to try to lead out a sprinter to the finish. There was no Portland Velo breakaway, so I understand, that they would be blocking for. I believe that Mr. Nelson merely found himself in the back half of a slow moving peloton, unable to move up, and saw a couple Portland Velo jerseys of guys who were smart enough to make the move up the front of the pack early so they could contest the finish. I believe they put one man in the top 10 - not terrible for a Cat5 team still learning team tactics. It is well known that it is difficult to move around in the pack on the Piece of Cake course. Myself, racing in the 4's, I had to start making my move about 10 miles from the finish in order to complete it by the two miles to go mark. Then I sat near the front, sucking wind, for the last couple miles so I could have a shot at a good finish. It's just racing is all. So, to summarize: No breakaway. No blocking. Just a frustrated racer who didn't make the move to the front of the peloton early enough to contest the finish. To move this thread back on the original topic; I have sometimes wondered myself why the road didn't open up sooner than 200m. Particularly at Banana Belt, by the time 200m came up, the sprinters had already picked their lines and opening up the other lane had no real affect. On the other hand, I can see that perhaps the opening of both lanes at 200m is meant as a pure safety matter, and opening the lane up sooner would eliminate the safety of having extra room to maneuver in a sprint. Say the lane opened at 500m, what would happen with a 50+ person peloton? Why, everyone and their Grandma would move up around the side of the peloton to get to the front and fill the road just the same and their would be no safety benefit at all. The way it is now, nobody seriously contesting the sprint uses the newly opened lane (takes too long to move across the road after the sprint has started), so the open lane acts as a safety buffer in case someone doesn't hold their line. If there is a crash at the finish, it provides an escape route to get around.
On 3/31/08, STEVEN R HOLLAND wrote:

I was in a cat 3 race many years ago in the Seattle area. One team staged in the front. Once the race started, they sent two riders up the road and put 4 guys across the road blocking the road. They obviously had this planned. By the time some of us forced our way up to the front......it was to late...the two riders were gone.

IMO you should never have 4 riders on the front [especially from one team] just soft peddling. If you do not want to race, move over so others can. This happens often in all fields. Why sit on the front? I never understand this. What does this accomplish, unless you are doing it for the sole purpose of blocking others from racing?

Ty, I'm sure those other 53 riders would have been happy to "take their turn at the front" if your fellas would have let them Why force others to make aggressive moves just to get by and race?

Steve [I'd rather attack than sit in] Holland

Ty Lambert wrote:
If 53 other riders could not overcome 4 riders from a particular team,perhaps you are in the correct field.Stop sucking wheels and start taking your turn at the front.Ty LambertPortland Velo-----Original Message-----From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] OnBehalf Of Matthew KlahnSent: Monday, March 31, 2008 1:58 PMTo: Jerald M PowellCc: obra@list.obra.org; JeffSubject: Re: [OBRA Chat] SprintPhysically pushing your way through Cat. 5 riders is almost certainly dangerous (especially in early season races), and it is unsafe, irresponsible and unsporting for a team to try this. If you have a large enough team to block in this way, and you can't lead a rider out to win a sprint, then perhaps you should rethink your training, etc. I think Jeff's comments are spot-on; I didn't race yesterday (and would not have been in this category, anyway), but a friend who finished top-10 in this race related how this went down in yesterday's sprint finish. Seems like PV riders could stand to learn some real team tactics rather than employ the ones that seem to have been used the last two years (!) at PoC.Just another reason to get out of the Cat. 4/5 ASAP, IMO.MatthewOn Mar 31, 2008, at 1:52 PM, Jerald M Powell wrote:> Jeff... "unsafe" might be over cooking it a bit. "Unwise", or> "Ineffective" is probably a fair criticism. "Blocking" by plugging up> the road, firstly, doesn't work very well because any physical rider> accustomed to a bit of shoulder to hip contact is capable of riding> through it (even if it risks criticism for dangerous riding).> secondly, it gains no particular tactical advantage and in fact> requires just as much energy from the "blocker" as it does from the> "blockee".>> Jerry>> On Mar 31, 2008, at 10:52 AM, Jeff wrote:>> I raced in the Cat 5 race and would say that the problem with antsy>> riders and unsafe riding started as soon as Portland Velo riders>> began boxing the group on the second lap. It made the race unsafe>> and not fun. The first lap was good, riders taking turns pulling and>> a safe peleton.>>>> Kudo's to all Cat 5 riders for keeping the rubber side down despite>> the unsafe tactics of others.>>>>> Jerry Powell> USAC Level 1 Coach> 1926 SW Madison St> Portland, OR 97205>> 503 222 7173> 503 799 7823 (cellular)>> jpowell@spiritone.com>>>>> _______________________________________________> OBRA mailing list> obra@list.obra.org> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org_______________________________________________OBRA mailing listobra@list.obra.orghttp://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obraUnsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org_______________________________________________OBRA mailing listobra@list.obra.orghttp://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obraUnsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.orgSTEVEN R HOLLAND17203 SE 30TH STVANCOUVER,WA 98683C(503)780-7296_______________________________________________OBRA mailing listobra@list.obra.orghttp://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obraUnsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

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r r

2008-03-31

Dont forget every crit as well. We get the full road for the entire race and sprint there and things flow perfectly fine as well.

Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 18:09:27 -0700
From: ratliffb@gmail.com
To: bikexcr@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Sprint
CC: obra@list.obra.org

Good point. I don't think I have enough experience to answer it. This is my first full season racing and I've only done PIR three times in tiny fields (11-16 riders) late last summer.

On 3/31/08, r r wrote:
Alas,

Thank you Brian for at least getting back on topic. Somehow the topic turned into the telephone game, and turned into a finger pointing contest.

The main point of the original email was, why not open up the road earlier, if it does not violate any sort of county permit code that must be followed in order to have the race put on.

But, in with the road opened earlier, does not mean everyone will have the ability to move around. Take PIR for example. See how nicely the sprints work there with the nice wide open road. Sprints work there how they are suppose to work. And in the end, the true sprinters and stronger riders still emerge and the peleton is still strung out despite optimal space for everyoen and their grandmother to move around in. I guess thats what i am getting at. Everyone likes a course thats nice and wide open, so why purposely have it tighter during the most chaotic time, that is if it does not violate permit code for hosting the race.

Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 17:46:38 -0700
From: ratliffb@gmail.com
To: srh148@yahoo.com

CC: jeff.nelson@yakima.com; obra@list.obra.org

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Sprint

Just to clear up some misunderstandings starting to form, for the sake of the peanut gallery here...

Nobody from any team was riding four abreast "blocking" the pack, so I've been told. Portland Velo had 4 guys in the race, and towards the end of the race, they were, all four, near the front of the peloton, working to try to lead out a sprinter to the finish. There was no Portland Velo breakaway, so I understand, that they would be blocking for. I believe that Mr. Nelson merely found himself in the back half of a slow moving peloton, unable to move up, and saw a couple Portland Velo jerseys of guys who were smart enough to make the move up the front of the pack early so they could contest the finish. I believe they put one man in the top 10 - not terrible for a Cat5 team still learning team tactics.

It is well known that it is difficult to move around in the pack on the Piece of Cake course. Myself, racing in the 4's, I had to start making my move about 10 miles from the finish in order to complete it by the two miles to go mark. Then I sat near the front, sucking wind, for the last couple miles so I could have a shot at a good finish. It's just racing is all.

So, to summarize: No breakaway. No blocking. Just a frustrated racer who didn't make the move to the front of the peloton early enough to contest the finish.

To move this thread back on the original topic; I have sometimes wondered myself why the road didn't open up sooner than 200m. Particularly at Banana Belt, by the time 200m came up, the sprinters had already picked their lines and opening up the other lane had no real affect. On the other hand, I can see that perhaps the opening of both lanes at 200m is meant as a pure safety matter, and opening the lane up sooner would eliminate the safety of having extra room to maneuver in a sprint.

Say the lane opened at 500m, what would happen with a 50+ person peloton? Why, everyone and their Grandma would move up around the side of the peloton to get to the front and fill the road just the same and their would be no safety benefit at all. The way it is now, nobody seriously contesting the sprint uses the newly opened lane (takes too long to move across the road after the sprint has started), so the open lane acts as a safety buffer in case someone doesn't hold their line. If there is a crash at the finish, it provides an escape route to get around.

On 3/31/08, STEVEN R HOLLAND wrote:
I was in a cat 3 race many years ago in the Seattle area. One team staged in the front. Once the race started, they sent two riders up the road and put 4 guys across the road blocking the road. They obviously had this planned. By the time some of us forced our way up to the front......it was to late...the two riders were gone.
IMO you should never have 4 riders on the front [especially from one team] just soft peddling. If you do not want to race, move over so others can. This happens often in all fields. Why sit on the front? I never understand this. What does this accomplish, unless you are doing it for the sole purpose of blocking others from racing?
Ty, I'm sure those other 53 riders would have been happy to "take their turn at the front" if your fellas would have let them Why force others to make aggressive moves just to get by and race?
Steve [I'd rather attack than sit in] Holland

Ty Lambert wrote:
If 53 other riders could not overcome 4 riders from a particular team,
perhaps you are in the correct field.

Stop sucking wheels and start taking your turn at the front.

Ty Lambert
Portland Velo

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On

Behalf Of Matthew Klahn
Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 1:58 PM
To: Jerald M Powell
Cc: obra@list.obra.org; Jeff

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Sprint

Physically pushing your way through Cat. 5 riders is almost certainly
dangerous (especially in early season races), and it is unsafe,
irresponsible and unsporting for a team to try this. If you have a

large enough team to block in this way, and you can't lead a rider out
to win a sprint, then perhaps you should rethink your training, etc. I
think Jeff's comments are spot-on; I didn't race yesterday (and would

not have been in this category, anyway), but a friend who finished
top-10 in this race related how this went down in yesterday's sprint
finish. Seems like PV riders could stand to learn some real team
tactics rather than employ the ones that seem to have been used the

last two years (!) at PoC.

Just another reason to get out of the Cat. 4/5 ASAP, IMO.

Matthew

On Mar 31, 2008, at 1:52 PM, Jerald M Powell wrote:

> Jeff... "unsafe" might be over cooking it a bit. "Unwise", or

> "Ineffective" is probably a fair criticism. "Blocking" by plugging up
> the road, firstly, doesn't work very well because any physical rider
> accustomed to a bit of shoulder to hip contact is capable of riding

> through it (even if it risks criticism for dangerous riding).
> secondly, it gains no particular tactical advantage and in fact
> requires just as much energy from the "blocker" as it does from the

> "blockee".
>
> Jerry
>
> On Mar 31, 2008, at 10:52 AM, Jeff wrote:
>> I raced in the Cat 5 race and would say that the problem with antsy
>> riders and unsafe riding started as soon as Portland Velo riders

>> began boxing the group on the second lap. It made the race unsafe
>> and not fun. The first lap was good, riders taking turns pulling and
>> a safe peleton.
>>
>> Kudo's to all Cat 5 riders for keeping the rubber side down despite

>> the unsafe tactics of others.
>
>
>
>
> Jerry Powell
> USAC Level 1 Coach
> 1926 SW Madison St
> Portland, OR 97205
>
> 503 222 7173
> 503 799 7823 (cellular)

>
> jpowell@spiritone.com
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________

> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra

> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________

OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra

Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________

OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
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Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

STEVEN R HOLLAND

17203 SE 30TH ST
VANCOUVER,WA 98683
C(503)780-7296
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org

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Brian Ratliff

2008-03-31

Good point. I don't think I have enough experience to answer it. This is
my first full season racing and I've only done PIR three times in tiny
fields (11-16 riders) late last summer.

On 3/31/08, r r wrote:
>
> Alas,
>
> Thank you Brian for at least getting back on topic. Somehow the topic
> turned into the telephone game, and turned into a finger pointing contest.
>
> The main point of the original email was, why not open up the road
> earlier, if it does not violate any sort of county permit code that must be
> followed in order to have the race put on.
>
> But, in with the road opened earlier, does not mean everyone will have the
> ability to move around. Take PIR for example. See how nicely the sprints
> work there with the nice wide open road. Sprints work there how they are
> suppose to work. And in the end, the true sprinters and stronger riders
> still emerge and the peleton is still strung out despite optimal space for
> everyoen and their grandmother to move around in. I guess thats what i am
> getting at. Everyone likes a course thats nice and wide open, so why
> purposely have it tighter during the most chaotic time, that is if it does
> not violate permit code for hosting the race.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 17:46:38 -0700
> From: ratliffb@gmail.com
> To: srh148@yahoo.com
> CC: jeff.nelson@yakima.com; obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Sprint
>
> Just to clear up some misunderstandings starting to form, for the sake of
> the peanut gallery here...
>
> Nobody from any team was riding four abreast "blocking" the pack, so I've
> been told. Portland Velo had 4 guys in the race, and towards the end of the
> race, they were, all four, near the front of the peloton, working to try to
> lead out a sprinter to the finish. There was no Portland Velo breakaway, so
> I understand, that they would be blocking for. I believe that Mr. Nelson
> merely found himself in the back half of a slow moving peloton, unable to
> move up, and saw a couple Portland Velo jerseys of guys who were smart
> enough to make the move up the front of the pack early so they could contest
> the finish. I believe they put one man in the top 10 - not terrible for a
> Cat5 team still learning team tactics.
>
> It is well known that it is difficult to move around in the pack on the
> Piece of Cake course. Myself, racing in the 4's, I had to start making my
> move about 10 miles from the finish in order to complete it by the two miles
> to go mark. Then I sat near the front, sucking wind, for the last couple
> miles so I could have a shot at a good finish. It's just racing is all.
>
> So, to summarize: No breakaway. No blocking. Just a frustrated racer who
> didn't make the move to the front of the peloton early enough to contest the
> finish.
>
> To move this thread back on the original topic; I have sometimes wondered
> myself why the road didn't open up sooner than 200m. Particularly at Banana
> Belt, by the time 200m came up, the sprinters had already picked their lines
> and opening up the other lane had no real affect. On the other hand, I can
> see that perhaps the opening of both lanes at 200m is meant as a pure safety
> matter, and opening the lane up sooner
> would eliminate the safety of having extra room to maneuver in a sprint.
>
> Say the lane opened at 500m, what would happen with a 50+ person peloton? Why, everyone and their Grandma would move up around the side of the peloton to get to the front and fill the road just the same
> and their would be no safety benefit at all. The way it is now, nobody
> seriously contesting the sprint uses the newly opened lane (takes too long
> to move across the road after the sprint has started), so the open lane acts
> as a safety buffer in case someone doesn't hold their line. If there is a
> crash at the finish, it provides an escape route to get around.
>
>
> On 3/31/08, *STEVEN R HOLLAND* wrote:
>
> I was in a cat 3 race many years ago in the Seattle area. One team staged
> in the front. Once the race started, they sent two riders up the road and
> put 4 guys across the road blocking the road. They obviously had this
> planned. By the time some of us forced our way up to the front......it was
> to late...the two riders were gone.
>
> IMO you should never have 4 riders on the front [especially from one
> team] just soft peddling. If you do not want to race, move over so others
> can. This happens often in all fields. Why sit on the front? I never
> understand this. What does this accomplish, unless you are doing it for the
> sole purpose of blocking others from racing?
>
> Ty, I'm sure those other 53 riders would have been happy to "take their
> turn at the front" if your fellas would have let them Why force others to
> make aggressive moves just to get by and race?
>
> Steve [I'd rather attack than sit in] Holland
>
>
>
> *Ty Lambert * wrote:
>
> If 53 other riders could not overcome 4 riders from a particular team,
> perhaps you are in the correct field.
> Stop sucking wheels and start taking your turn at the front.
>
> Ty Lambert
> Portland Velo
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
> Behalf Of Matthew Klahn
> Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 1:58 PM
> To: Jerald M Powell
> Cc: obra@list.obra.org; Jeff
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Sprint
>
> Physically pushing your way through Cat. 5 riders is almost certainly
> dangerous (especially in early season races), and it is unsafe,
> irresponsible and unsporting for a team to try this. If you have a
> large enough team to block in this way, and you can't lead a rider out
> to win a sprint, then perhaps you should rethink your training, etc. I
> think Jeff's comments are spot-on; I didn't race yesterday (and would
> not have been in this category, anyway), but a friend who finished
> top-10 in this race related how this went down in yesterday's sprint
> finish. Seems like PV riders could stand to learn some real team
> tactics rather than employ the ones that seem to have been used the
> last two years (!) at PoC.
>
> Just another reason to get out of the Cat. 4/5 ASAP, IMO.
>
> Matthew
>
> On Mar 31, 2008, at 1:52 PM, Jerald M Powell wrote:
>
> > Jeff... "unsafe" might be over cooking it a bit. "Unwise", or
> > "Ineffective" is probably a fair criticism. "Blocking" by plugging up
> > the road, firstly, doesn't work very well because any physical rider
> > accustomed to a bit of shoulder to hip contact is capable of riding
> > through it (even if it risks criticism for dangerous riding).
> > secondly, it gains no particular tactical advantage and in fact
> > requires just as much energy from the "blocker" as it does from the
> > "blockee".
> >
> > Jerry
> >
> > On Mar 31, 2008, at 10:52 AM, Jeff wrote:
> >> I raced in the Cat 5 race and would say that the problem with antsy
> >> riders and unsafe riding started as soon as Portland Velo riders
> >> began boxing the group on the second lap. It made the race unsafe
> >> and not fun. The first lap was good, riders taking turns pulling and
> >> a safe peleton.
> >>
> >> Kudo's to all Cat 5 riders for keeping the rubber side down despite
> >> the unsafe tactics of others.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Jerry Powell
> > USAC Level 1 Coach
> > 1926 SW Madison St
> > Portland, OR 97205
> >
> > 503 222 7173
> > 503 799 7823 (cellular)
> >
> > jpowell@spiritone.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
>
> STEVEN R HOLLAND
> 17203 SE 30TH ST
> VANCOUVER,WA 98683
> C(503)780-7296
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> In a rush? Get real-time answers with Windows Live Messenger.
>

r r

2008-03-31

Alas,

Thank you Brian for at least getting back on topic. Somehow the topic turned into the telephone game, and turned into a finger pointing contest.

The main point of the original email was, why not open up the road earlier, if it does not violate any sort of county permit code that must be followed in order to have the race put on.

But, in with the road opened earlier, does not mean everyone will have the ability to move around. Take PIR for example. See how nicely the sprints work there with the nice wide open road. Sprints work there how they are suppose to work. And in the end, the true sprinters and stronger riders still emerge and the peleton is still strung out despite optimal space for everyoen and their grandmother to move around in. I guess thats what i am getting at. Everyone likes a course thats nice and wide open, so why purposely have it tighter during the most chaotic time, that is if it does not violate permit code for hosting the race.

Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 17:46:38 -0700
From: ratliffb@gmail.com
To: srh148@yahoo.com
CC: jeff.nelson@yakima.com; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Sprint