blocked sprints, etc.

oh all this strategy and tactics , pacelines, drafting, leadouts, controversy, psychology, and etc (embrace it) are what make road racing so fun.
As a fat usually out of shape infamous wheel sucker with limit of 2 or 3 occasional bouts of speed before i bonk, it is fun to pull off a top 10 finish in a road race or crit race when i probably would be dead last in a cross race.

----- Original Message ----
From: casey
To: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Tuesday, April 1, 2008 12:09:08 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] blocked sprints, etc.

All this talk of blocked sprints makes me remember why mountain biking and cross are so much more fun than road racing.
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Gary Malcolm

2008-04-01

I did not race the POC this year, but having ridden the course many
times I seem to remember a large number of natural blocking deterrences
called "corners" on all three laps. I have never rounded a "corner" at
the POC (or any other race) where some spry joker didn't jet up 20
positions. It seems to me a sustained attack out of one of these
"corners" always stretches out the pack until the turtles can lumber
back on the front.

And I agree whole heartedly with our glorious leader K-Man... One lap to
go means get to the front if you care about placement. And besides,
we're talking Cat 5 here... anything close to a sustained level of
attacks would have had the field limping in by two's and three's.

Regards,

Gary Malcolm

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Charlie
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2008 3:51 PM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] blocked sprints, etc.

"Going to the front, going slow and impeding the riders behind you is
against the rules (OBRA rule 11.2)."

So suppose this is what happened at POC, what recourse can be had? I
appreciate that there's plenty of gray area and I wasn't there but I do
wonder what should happen, practically, in the real racing world?

If racers go to the trouble to train, pay race fees, spend money on high
zoot parts, it's kind of a bummer to not be able to have nothing happen
at the finish because rules are broken.

Surely an effective block should be countered by bike handling and
tactics, but a rolling road block as per OBRA rule above is poor
sportsmanship and takes away from the fun of competition.
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Charlie

2008-04-01

"Going to the front, going slow and impeding the riders behind you is against the rules (OBRA rule 11.2)."

So suppose this is what happened at POC, what recourse can be had? I appreciate that there's plenty of gray area and I wasn't there but I do wonder what should happen, practically, in the real racing world?

If racers go to the trouble to train, pay race fees, spend money on high zoot parts, it's kind of a bummer to not be able to have nothing happen at the finish because rules are broken.

Surely an effective block should be countered by bike handling and tactics, but a rolling road block as per OBRA rule above is poor sportsmanship and takes away from the fun of competition.


Mike Murray

2008-04-01

Adding another class is not so easy as suggested in this note. Even if it
were safe and proper to have unescorted racing fields on the road (it is
generally not) there would also be the issue of total road congestion,
passing fields, increased time and officials requirement, etc. Adding
fields is generally not feasible. Most race organizers want their race
attendance to be as big as possible and they have already put lots of
consideration into what fields that they will have. I agree that there is a
big market for older less experienced and/or slower racers that many races
do not address very well but in order for them to add a field they will
generally have to cut another field.

As for slow blocking, that is not how this stuff works. Going to the front,
going slow and impeding the riders behind you is against the rules (OBRA
rule 11.2). Proper blocking is done by going near the front and then not
pulling through forcing a limited number of riders to take pace. Generally
it will take more effort to block then it would to chase. Effective
blocking will not slow the pace much more than it needs to as keeping the
speed higher keeps people from moving to the front or attempting to bridge.
It is important to note that breaks don't generally succeed because they are
going faster. They generally succeed because they don't slow down. It is
hard to get enough cooperation in a large field to keep things from slowing
occasional. The smaller more cooperative break moves at a more constant
pace and will move ahead during these lulls in speed. They will succeed if
the amount they gain in the lulls exceeds the amount they lose when the
field speeds up. Effective blocking will increase the number of lulls in
speed.

Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Don Hanson
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2008 09:14 AM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: [OBRA Chat] blocked sprints, etc.

I wasn't there at Piece of Cake but I heard about it from another older
master's racer who was there, racing in the 4-5s. Maybe there could be a
few more events with separate classes for us old racers. I only recall one
last year, the State RR, where there was a separate start for us. Start us
a minute behind another class and leave out the wheel cars, if you must.
That would cut down on the congestion during the sprints.
I was in a race with a bunch from Team Zoka last season. They were 4 wide
and very vocal. They were spending more time looking over their shoulders
than watching ahead. With about a mile to go, they had the pace held at
about 20mph. Was it worth risking an attempt to bust through their
blockade? With about 40 other riders, those held in the rear, depending on
the 'contact riding skills' of whichever rider was 'rammed, slammed,
elbowed, kicked, pushed, whaterver'...in order to get past their rolling
road block?--that kinda makes the racing a bit 'sketchy'. Not worth taking
out the whole pack with a big crash. Tactics like NASCAR or that old
Roller Derby. TV sport?.. A slug-fest on bikes?..hmmm..
Don Hanson

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Jerald M Powell

2008-04-01

I understand this is Cat 5 stuff. But many of you folks are missing
the point. Racing, in any venue, requires first that you accept the
venue... warts and all. It's idiocy to claim that PIR, and most any
road course can be ridden the same. They're different. They require
different approaches and different tactics and to some extent,
different skills. The point is, develop the skills while you're a Cat
5... practice them diligently at whatever level you attain. Believe
me, when a coach takes his paid pro team out to train, they don't just
go out to ride miles. They do drills that hone skills that they
learned as juniors, practiced as espoires, and continue to learn.
And, by the way, skill development and excess testosterone do not go
well together... so forget about the roller derby stuff.

Ask yourself these: Is my pedaling as smooth in a sprint as it is
cruising in the pack? Can I ride on the left edge of the fog line and
sprint without loosing that line? Can I displace my bike to the side
or back enough to avoid being taken down by another rider? Enough to
avoid a pot hole in my path? Can I take a hit on my shoulder without
going down? And then the skill question pertinent to the "four rider
blockade... can I move smoothly through a handlebar wide gap between
two riders? These are racing skills. Every cycling coach will start
his or her riders out with the simple ones (touch shoulders, touch
wheels) on training rides with his juniors and beginning racers. The
skills grow with experience and with practice.

This isn't stupid risk taking, it's racing. The risk was in getting
on the bike in the first place. And, by the way, mountain bike racers
and crossers (and trackies) are among the most skilled riders, not the
most risk averse.

Now... let's talk about something else.

Jerry

On Apr 1, 2008, at 10:34 AM, jboquiren@comcast.net wrote:

> Try some tactics some people use in shorttrack speedskating. Don
> your Kevlar skinsuits first though :)
>
> Joseph Boquiren
>
> -------------- Original message --------------
> From: "Don Hanson"
>
> > I wasn't there at Piece of Cake but I heard about it from another
> older
> > master's racer who was there, racing in the 4-5s. Maybe there
> could be a
> > few more events with separate classes for us old racers. I only
> recall one
> > last year, the State RR, where there was a separate start for us.
> Start us
> > a minute behind another class and leave out the wheel cars, if you
> must.
> > That would cut down on the congestion during the sprints.
> > I was in a race with a bunch from Team Zoka last season. They were
> 4 wide
> > and very vocal. They were spending more time looking over their
> shoulders
> > than watching ahead. With about a mile to go, they had the pace
> held at
> > about 20mph. Was it worth risking an attempt to bust through their
> & gt; blockade? With about 40 other riders, those held in the rear,
> depending on
> > the 'contact riding skills' of whichever rider was 'rammed, slammed,
> > elbowed, kicked, pushed, whaterver'...in order to get past their
> rolling
> > road block?--that kinda makes the racing a bit 'sketchy'. Not
> worth taking
> > out the whole pack with a big crash. Tactics like NASCAR or that old
> > Roller Derby. TV sport?.. A slug-fest on bikes?..hmmm..
> > Don Hanson


casey

2008-04-01

All this talk of blocked sprints makes me remember why mountain biking and cross are so much more fun than road racing.


Luciano bailey

2008-04-01

Well said JOe if this is any indication of the whining to come enough already. This is a case that seems to be growing and should be clipped before it's out of control whoops to late. Was not there did not see, but all to familiar with the scenario. Keep in mind this is cat 5 racing and to expect Tour riders with Pro tactics is ridiculous . The problem always centers aroiund racers trying to emulate the pro teams. Unfortunately this is not the NBA where imitating Lebron might at worst cause you to miss a dunk. This sport can be dangerous if the participants forget there level of skill and abilities and throw caution to the wind at the expense of the peleton if you want to try something pro how about an attack or breakaway so the sprint becomes almost a none factor. When in doubt error on the side of caution save it for another day (remember ESPN is not covering CAT5 piece of Cake events) keep the rubber side down.> Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 10:49:43 -0700> From: joec@aracnet.com> To: jboquiren@comcast.net> CC: obra@list.obra.org; dhanson@gorge.net> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] blocked sprints, etc.> > Or as a former teammate from many years back was found of saying at times:> "Shut up, grow a pair and make your own way through..."> > Joe C> > jboquiren wrote:> > > Try some tactics some people use in shorttrack speedskating. Don your Kevlar skinsuits first though :)> > > > Joseph Boquiren> > > > -------------- Original message -------------- > > From: "Don Hanson" > > > > > I wasn't there at Piece of Cake but I heard about it from another older > > > master's racer who was there, racing in the 4-5s. Maybe there could be a > > > few more events with separate classes for us old racers. I only recall one > > > last year, the State RR, where there was a separate start for us. Start us > > > a minute behind another class and leave out the wheel cars, if you must. > > > That would cut down on the congestion during the sprints. > > > I was in a race with a bunch from Team Zoka last season. They were 4 wide > > > and very vocal. They were spending more time looking over their shoulders > > > than watching ahead. With about a mile to go, they had the pace held at > > > about 20mph. Was it worth risking an attempt to bust through their > > > blockade? With about 40 other riders, those held in the rear, depending on > > > the 'contact riding skills' of whichever rider was 'rammed, slammed, > > > elbowed, kicked, pushed, whaterver'...in order to get past their rolling > > > road block?--that kinda makes the racing a bit 'sketchy'. Not worth taking > > > out the whole pack with a big crash. Tactics like NASCAR or that old > > > Roller Derby. TV sport?.. A slug-fest on bikes?..hmmm.. > > > Don Hanson > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > OBRA mailing list > > > obra@list.obra.org > > > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra > > > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org > > _______________________________________________> OBRA mailing list> obra@list.obra.org> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
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Joe Cipale

2008-04-01

Or as a former teammate from many years back was found of saying at times:
"Shut up, grow a pair and make your own way through..."

Joe C

jboquiren wrote:

> Try some tactics some people use in shorttrack speedskating. Don your Kevlar skinsuits first though :)
>
> Joseph Boquiren
>
> -------------- Original message --------------
> From: "Don Hanson"
>
> > I wasn't there at Piece of Cake but I heard about it from another older
> > master's racer who was there, racing in the 4-5s. Maybe there could be a
> > few more events with separate classes for us old racers. I only recall one
> > last year, the State RR, where there was a separate start for us. Start us
> > a minute behind another class and leave out the wheel cars, if you must.
> > That would cut down on the congestion during the sprints.
> > I was in a race with a bunch from Team Zoka last season. They were 4 wide
> > and very vocal. They were spending more time looking over their shoulders
> > than watching ahead. With about a mile to go, they had the pace held at
> > about 20mph. Was it worth risking an attempt to bust through their
> > blockade? With about 40 other riders, those held in the rear, depending on
> > the 'contact riding skills' of whichever rider was 'rammed, slammed,
> > elbowed, kicked, pushed, whaterver'...in order to get past their rolling
> > road block?--that kinda makes the racing a bit 'sketchy'. Not worth taking
> > out the whole pack with a big crash. Tactics like NASCAR or that old
> > Roller Derby. TV sport?.. A slug-fest on bikes?..hmmm..
> > Don Hanson
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


jboquiren@comcast.net

2008-04-01

Try some tactics some people use in shorttrack speedskating. Don your Kevlar skinsuits first though :)

Joseph Boquiren

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Don Hanson"

> I wasn't there at Piece of Cake but I heard about it from another older
> master's racer who was there, racing in the 4-5s. Maybe there could be a
> few more events with separate classes for us old racers. I only recall one
> last year, the State RR, where there was a separate start for us. Start us
> a minute behind another class and leave out the wheel cars, if you must.
> That would cut down on the congestion during the sprints.
> I was in a race with a bunch from Team Zoka last season. They were 4 wide
> and very vocal. They were spending more time looking over their shoulders
> than watching ahead. With about a mile to go, they had the pace held at
> about 20mph. Was it worth risking an attempt to bust through their
> blockade? With about 40 other riders, those held in the rear, depending on
> the 'contact riding skills' of whichever rider was 'rammed, slammed,
> elbowed, kicked, pushed, whaterver'...in order to get past their rolling
> road block?--that kinda makes the racing a bit 'sketchy'. Not worth taking
> out the whole pack with a big crash. Tactics like NASCAR or that old
> Roller Derby. TV sport?.. A slug-fest on bikes?..hmmm..
> Don Hanson
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


Don Hanson

2008-04-01

I wasn't there at Piece of Cake but I heard about it from another older
master's racer who was there, racing in the 4-5s. Maybe there could be a
few more events with separate classes for us old racers. I only recall one
last year, the State RR, where there was a separate start for us. Start us
a minute behind another class and leave out the wheel cars, if you must.
That would cut down on the congestion during the sprints.
I was in a race with a bunch from Team Zoka last season. They were 4 wide
and very vocal. They were spending more time looking over their shoulders
than watching ahead. With about a mile to go, they had the pace held at
about 20mph. Was it worth risking an attempt to bust through their
blockade? With about 40 other riders, those held in the rear, depending on
the 'contact riding skills' of whichever rider was 'rammed, slammed,
elbowed, kicked, pushed, whaterver'...in order to get past their rolling
road block?--that kinda makes the racing a bit 'sketchy'. Not worth taking
out the whole pack with a big crash. Tactics like NASCAR or that old
Roller Derby. TV sport?.. A slug-fest on bikes?..hmmm..
Don Hanson